I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). The
instructions advise 4 t per loaf. OK, fine. My BM manual advises using
bread flour for making French bread. So, the question is, does adding gluten
to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or just
improve it, somewhat.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
>I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). The
> instructions advise 4 t per loaf. OK, fine. My BM manual advises using
> bread flour for making French bread. So, the question is, does adding
> gluten
> to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or
> just
> improve it, somewhat.
>
>

I think it would make it more constipating... an automatic bread machine is
an ABM, a BM is a bowel movement. The French would have a BM manual. LOL

"l, not -l" > wrote in message
...
>
> On 25-Jun-2009, notbob > wrote:
>
>> I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). The
>> instructions advise 4 t per loaf. OK, fine. My BM manual advises using
>> bread flour for making French bread. So, the question is, does adding
>> gluten
>> to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or
>> just
>> improve it, somewhat.
>>
>> nb
>
> A/P flour runs between 10-12% protein
> Bread flour is usually 12.5-14%
> Vital Wheat Gluten Flour is around 50% protein; I use Bob's Red Mill,
> which
> is 46%. It won't take much to raise your a/p to bread flour equivalent.
> Not nearly 4 t per loaf you mentioned, which is probably the amount used
> for
> whole wheat.
>
> Since I weigh ingredients, I would simply use 98% a/p flour, 2% VWG. 3
> cups of flour is 360 grams; therefor, I'd go with roughly 350-353 grams of
> a/p and 7-10 grams of vwg. Really depends on the strength of you a/p
> flour;
> but the indicated range should give it a boost without going too far. If
> you don't care to weight the flours; you could go with 1.5 tsp of vwg,
> plus
> enough flour for a total of 3 cups.
>

Ironically, French bread flour is closer to our AP flour, i.e., the type
available in Canada and the northern US.

> For the usual 2 or 3 know-it-alls who will chime in with their belittling
> commentary in order to feel better about themselves - screw you, I don't
> give a rats ass what you think.
> --

Well, even though I applaud you for weighing, the query is about French
bread, so: "Va te faire enculer!"

"notbob" wrote

>I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). The
> instructions advise 4 t per loaf. OK, fine. My BM manual advises using
> bread flour for making French bread. So, the question is, does adding
> gluten
> to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or
> just
> improve it, somewhat.

notbob, Added gluten is normally only needed for the darker flour types.
'Bread Flour' is just a slightly higher gluten (protien) flour of a white
type normally. I like 'Better for Bread' brand as well as King Arthrur's
flours in my bread machine.

I normally use 2 TS gluten or so per cup of whole wheat or rye.

If they are advising 4 Tablespoons per loaf, it's way too much. If you meant
4 teaspoons, thats about right for a loaf that has 2 cups of whole wheat or
'whatever' added to a mixed 2 lb loaf with 1/2 of the flour, a white.

On 2009-06-25, cshenk > wrote:

> notbob, Added gluten is normally only needed for the darker flour types.
> 'Bread Flour' is just a slightly higher gluten (protien) flour of a white
> type normally. I like 'Better for Bread' brand as well as King Arthrur's
> flours in my bread machine.

Hi C! (get it! I was hoping you would respond. I did get the Hodgen
Mills VWG you mentioned. I may go Red Mill or ? as this stuff is about
$7-8lb in the little 6.5oz box.

> I normally use 2 TS gluten or so per cup of whole wheat or rye.

Let's clarify.
T = tablespoon
t = teaspoon

> If they are advising 4 Tablespoons per loaf, it's way too much. If you meant
> 4 teaspoons, thats about right for a loaf that has 2 cups of whole wheat or
> 'whatever' added to a mixed 2 lb loaf with 1/2 of the flour, a white.>

I recall you advising 1 T per loaf for wheat in BM. This is for French
bread calling for "bread flour". I'm all ears.

nb

"notbob" wrote
> cshenk wrote:

>> notbob, Added gluten is normally only needed for the darker flour types.
>> 'Bread Flour' is just a slightly higher gluten (protien) flour of a white
>> type normally. I like 'Better for Bread' brand as well as King Arthrur's
>> flours in my bread machine.
>
> Hi C! (get it! I was hoping you would respond.

Hehehe been busy with work. Subject caught me.

> I did get the Hodgen
> Mills VWG you mentioned. I may go Red Mill or ? as this stuff is about
> $7-8lb in the little 6.5oz box.

It's all the same. Just the one brand is easier to find where I am is all.
Kinda like brands of standard table salt, who really cares? It's salt.
This time, it's 'gluten additive'.

>> I normally use 2 TS gluten or so per cup of whole wheat or rye.
>
> Let's clarify.
> T = tablespoon
> t = teaspoon
>
>> If they are advising 4 Tablespoons per loaf, it's way too much. If you
>> meant
>> 4 teaspoons, thats about right for a loaf that has 2 cups of whole wheat
>> or
>> 'whatever' added to a mixed 2 lb loaf with 1/2 of the flour, a white.>
>
> I recall you advising 1 T per loaf for wheat in BM. This is for French
> bread calling for "bread flour". I'm all ears.

Easy answer. That was for the whole batch and a 4 cup of 100% whole wheat
or a mixed whole wheat and rye blend. Gluten is one of the one that if you
add a little extra or arent 'exact' in measure, it's ok even with a
breadmaker.

For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a decent
protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at all.

notbob wrote:
>
> I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). The
> instructions advise 4 t per loaf. OK, fine. My BM manual advises using
> bread flour for making French bread. So, the question is, does adding gluten
> to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or just
> improve it, somewhat.
>
> nb

That sounds like too much gluten for white flour, which could prevent it
from rising decently. Try one or two tsp first (for about 3 cups of
white flour) and see what you get.
Bread flours vary in their gluten content anyway.

> For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a decent
> protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at all.

This is getting really old. I even bought a fresh jar of Fleischmann's
BreadMachine yeast. It still came out a brick. A 60%-of-pan size brick as
opposed to the last 40%-of-pan size brick, but a brick just the same. Nice
even air pockets (small), good flavor, good crumb (?), but definitely not a
loaf of French bread. No loft. No large air pockets. This getting very
frustrating. I might try the other machine. The other machine gave me a
bigger (more rise) loaf despite being a rye recipe. Grrrr.......

nb

On Jul 9, 4:43*pm, notbob > wrote:
> > For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a decent
> > protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at all.
>
> This is getting really old. *I even bought a fresh jar of Fleischmann's
> BreadMachine yeast. *It still came out a brick. *A 60%-of-pan size brick as
> opposed to the last 40%-of-pan size brick, but a brick just the same. *Nice
> even air pockets (small), good flavor, good crumb (?), but definitely not a
> loaf of French bread. *No loft. *No large air pockets. *This getting very
> frustrating. *I might try the other machine. *The other machine gave me a
> bigger (more rise) loaf despite being a rye recipe. *Grrrr.......

You're taking "rib-stickin', good-and-solid" a little too literal I
think.

The Ranger

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
>
>> For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a
>> decent
>> protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at
>> all.
>
> This is getting really old. I even bought a fresh jar of Fleischmann's
> BreadMachine yeast. It still came out a brick. A 60%-of-pan size brick
> as
> opposed to the last 40%-of-pan size brick, but a brick just the same.
> Nice
> even air pockets (small), good flavor, good crumb (?), but definitely not
> a
> loaf of French bread. No loft. No large air pockets. This getting very
> frustrating. I might try the other machine. The other machine gave me a
> bigger (more rise) loaf despite being a rye recipe. Grrrr.......
>
> nb

The kind of French bread you are attempting can't be made in bread machine.
The dough needs to be a wet (high hydration) dough. For final shaping, the
dough needs to be handled as little as possible. The large, airy holes are
developed from pre-existing holes from the first rise. If the dough is
kneaded and rolled a lot before the final rise, all the big holes are broken
down into many little holes and produce a final crumb of fine texture and
small holes. You could try removing the dough from the bread machine before
the final kneading/manipulation and then shaping the dough yourself and
baking off in the oven.
Janet

notbob wrote:
>> For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a decent
>> protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at all.
>
> This is getting really old. I even bought a fresh jar of Fleischmann's
> BreadMachine yeast. It still came out a brick. A 60%-of-pan size brick as
> opposed to the last 40%-of-pan size brick, but a brick just the same. Nice
> even air pockets (small), good flavor, good crumb (?), but definitely not a
> loaf of French bread. No loft. No large air pockets. This getting very
> frustrating. I might try the other machine. The other machine gave me a
> bigger (more rise) loaf despite being a rye recipe. Grrrr.......
>
> nb


What is your altitude? (You're in South Park, aren't you?) 8,000 ft?
Do quick breads work for you there?

I've always heard that large air pockets are achieved with a relatively
wet dough. The effect of the steam produced, maybe?

Are you letting the bread rise too far so that it collapses when it
gets the first hot "oven spring"?

Have you been in touch with CSU Cooperative Extension service? You may
well have a COunty Agent representative who can tell you what's
available. When we first moved to the Denver area I received some
printed matter regarding various cooking at high altitude. That was 25
years ago, I suspect they may have more comprehensive in for available now.

There must be a solution somewhere!

gloria p

On 2009-07-10, Gloria P > wrote:

> What is your altitude? (You're in South Park, aren't you?) 8,000 ft?

I'm near Buena Vista, about 30-40 miles West of Southpark. I'm at about
7,800 ft.

> Do quick breads work for you there?

Never tried one. Still can't get a breadmachine to work.

> Are you letting the bread rise too far so that it collapses when it
> gets the first hot "oven spring"?

The machine has 3 rise periods and two punch downs.

> There must be a solution somewhere!

Got two different brand machines. Gonna try the other one.

nb

On 2009-07-10, Christine Dabney > wrote:

> I think part of the problem is that you are attempting to make French
> bread in a bread machine.

You may be right.

nb

On 2009-07-10, Janet Bostwick > wrote:

> The kind of French bread you are attempting can't be made in bread machine.
> The dough needs to be a wet (high hydration) dough. For final shaping, the
> dough needs to be handled as little as possible. The large, airy holes are
> developed from pre-existing holes from the first rise. If the dough is
> kneaded and rolled a lot before the final rise, all the big holes are broken
> down into many little holes and produce a final crumb of fine texture and
> small holes.

Makes sense. Like I said, this machine has 3 rise periods and two punch
downs. Still, I would think the recommended factory recipe for a 2lb loaf
would at least fill the 2lb pan (vert). Nada.

nb

> Bricks as you describe are most often the result of the flour/water ratio
> being off; too much flour for the amount of water used. Do you weight your
> ingredients? If not, what method do you use to measure the flour?

The manual recommends 2-4 tsp water, extra, for each cup of water in the
recipe. I added five extra tsp water for the recommended 1-1/3 C in recipe.
I did not weigh the flour, but I could. A 1 C measure and a 1 T and 1 t
measure come with the machine.


> I always make the dough in my bread machine's dough cycle, then shape into
> baguettes and bake.


Which eliminates the second punch down. I wonder......


> Place a pan of hot water on the bottom rack of the oven. Preheat oven to
> 450F.

I'll need to do a thorough oven cleaning, first. Those are smokin' temps.

nb

notbob wrote:
>
> > For a 'french bread' I am assuming 100% white flour so it you have a decent
> > protein level flour (better for bread etc), added gluten isnt needed at all.
>
> This is getting really old. I even bought a fresh jar of Fleischmann's
> BreadMachine yeast. It still came out a brick. A 60%-of-pan size brick as
> opposed to the last 40%-of-pan size brick, but a brick just the same. Nice
> even air pockets (small), good flavor, good crumb (?), but definitely not a
> loaf of French bread. No loft. No large air pockets. This getting very
> frustrating. I might try the other machine. The other machine gave me a
> bigger (more rise) loaf despite being a rye recipe. Grrrr.......
>
> nb

Try this recipe: (from 'The Cook's Encyclopedia of Bread Machine
Baking')

2/3 c water
2 c bread flour
1 tsp salt
1 1/2 tsp yeast

Adjust the flour/water to get a slightly sloppy dough while it's mixing.

Haven't made this recipe but others from the book worked fine when we
still had a breadmaker.


Too much yeast can cause the bread to hit the underside of the
breadmaker lid during the final rise. After that it will collapse and
become remarkably brick-like. BTDT and made breadcrumbs from it

notbob wrote:
>
> On 2009-07-10, Gloria P > wrote:
>
> > What is your altitude? (You're in South Park, aren't you?) 8,000 ft?
>
> I'm near Buena Vista, about 30-40 miles West of Southpark. I'm at about
> 7,800 ft.
>
> > Do quick breads work for you there?
>
> Never tried one. Still can't get a breadmachine to work.
>
> > Are you letting the bread rise too far so that it collapses when it
> > gets the first hot "oven spring"?
>
> The machine has 3 rise periods and two punch downs.
>
> > There must be a solution somewhere!
>
> Got two different brand machines. Gonna try the other one.
>
> nb


Less yeast at high altitude!

On Jun 28, 12:24*pm, Arri London > wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>
> > I bought some wheat gluten for making bread in a bread machine (BM). *The
> > instructions advise 4 t per loaf. *OK, fine. *My BM manual advises using
> > bread flour for making French bread. *So, the question is, does adding gluten
> > to all-purpose flour actually make it the equivelent of bread flour or just
> > improve it, somewhat.
>
> > nb
>
> That sounds like too much gluten for white flour, which could prevent it
> from rising decently. Try one or two tsp first (for about 3 cups of
> white flour) and see what you get.
> Bread flours vary in their gluten content anyway.

My experience with VWG is to use 1 tablespoon per cup of all purpose
flour, or whole wheat flour. Breads rise fine. YMMV.

maxine in ri