notbob wrote:
> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>
>> Oh a spot of racism it is? Ungrateful pig. Boron is very
>> experienced with sourdough starters. You are lucky she bothered to
>> try to educate you.
>
>
> Yeah. I'm a dick.

Indeed, and an apology to Boron might be nice!

> nb ....."He's a rebel and he'll never ever be any good" --song lyric

Oh dear. So you think you are cool, because a line in a song might excuse
you? Not going to work! You are rude and a boor!

On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
> notbob wrote:

>> Yeah. I'm a dick.
>
> Indeed, and an apology to Boron might be nice!
>
>> nb ....."He's a rebel and he'll never ever be any good" --song lyric
>
> Oh dear. So you think you are cool, because a line in a song might excuse
> you? Not going to work! You are rude and a boor!

Unlike yourself, an oh so charming and delightful person.

nb

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
> notbob wrote:
>> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>>
>>> Oh a spot of racism it is? Ungrateful pig. Boron is very
>>> experienced with sourdough starters. You are lucky she bothered to
>>> try to educate you.
>>
>>
>> Yeah. I'm a dick.
>
> Indeed, and an apology to Boron might be nice!
>
>> nb ....."He's a rebel and he'll never ever be any good" --song lyric
>
> Oh dear. So you think you are cool, because a line in a song might excuse
> you? Not going to work! You are rude and a boor!
>

He really is.

On 2009-07-31, cybercat > wrote:

> He really is.

Wow! Cybercat comes to your defense. Now, there's an endorsement.

Mornin', Cyb.

nb

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:38:22 +0100, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>notbob wrote:
>> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>>
>>> Oh a spot of racism it is? Ungrateful pig. Boron is very
>>> experienced with sourdough starters. You are lucky she bothered to
>>> try to educate you.
>>
>>
>> Yeah. I'm a dick.
>
>Indeed, and an apology to Boron might be nice!

Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.


Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:38:22 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>> notbob wrote:
>>> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh a spot of racism it is? Ungrateful pig. Boron is very
>>>> experienced with sourdough starters. You are lucky she bothered to
>>>> try to educate you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah. I'm a dick.
>>
>> Indeed, and an apology to Boron might be nice!
>
> Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.

Not at all m'dear. The truth is the truth!! Expertise here is often not
appreciated as it ought to be!

AC/DC

'Nuff said.

On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
> Boron Elgar wrote:

>> Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.
>
> Not at all m'dear. The truth is the truth!! Expertise here is often not
> appreciated as it ought to be!

Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!

nb

On 2009-07-31, notbob > wrote:

> Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!

Gluden! Gluden!

LOL.....

nb

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>> Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.
>>
>> Not at all m'dear. The truth is the truth!! Expertise here is
>> often not appreciated as it ought to be!
>
> Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!

You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that you don't
have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to attack a kind lady
who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this what Americans have become???
I don't believe so, but if you are an example then G*d help America!

I suspect you think you are funny, but you are a nothing and I spit on you!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself and how you represent your country!

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
> notbob wrote:
>> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>>>> Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.
>>>
>>> Not at all m'dear. The truth is the truth!! Expertise here is
>>> often not appreciated as it ought to be!
>>
>> Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!
>
> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that you
> don't have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to attack a
> kind lady who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this what Americans
> have become??? I don't believe so, but if you are an example then G*d help
> America!
>
> I suspect you think you are funny, but you are a nothing and I spit on
> you! You ought to be ashamed of yourself and how you represent your
> country!

Get a freaking life. Your starting to sound like andy.

ElmerF. wrote:
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>> notbob wrote:
>>> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>>>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Ophelia, for your kindness in all of this.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all m'dear. The truth is the truth!! Expertise here is
>>>> often not appreciated as it ought to be!
>>>
>>> Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!
>>
>> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that you
>> don't have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to attack
>> a kind lady who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this what
>> Americans have become??? I don't believe so, but if you are an
>> example then G*d help America!
>>
>> I suspect you think you are funny, but you are a nothing and I spit
>> on you! You ought to be ashamed of yourself and how you represent
>> your country!
>
> Get a freaking life. Your starting to sound like andy.

Oh really! You approve of racism and unkindness? You are disgusting.

Ophelia wrote:

> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that you don't
> have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to attack a kind lady
> who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this what Americans have become???

You open by loudly decrying prejudice.

You then proceed to make implications about an entire country
based on a single individual.

10.0 on the Dimbo Meter

On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:


> You ought to be ashamed of yourself.....

You need to get a grip, lady.

"A pre-ferment (pte fermentée), also called a sponge, a starter, or the
mother dough is a fermentation starter used in bread baking. It usually
consists of a simple mixture of flour, water, and a leavening agent
(typically yeast)...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_starter

Because someone you think is nice says my starter is not a "real starter"
cuz it's got ....gasp!.... yeast in it and I'm supposed to kneal down and
accept it as gospel? Sorry, Momma notbob raised no such fool. You and your
ilk may be bound by some no-independent-thought credo, but such is not the
case in these parts. Besides, I wuz jes kidding around. Go back to my
original reply and note the kidding smiley face. It's you who have raised
this to some sort of hateful racist jingoistic vandetta. I'd say you have
issues, lady.

nb

RegForte wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
>
>> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that
>> you don't have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to
>> attack a kind lady who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this
>> what Americans have become???
>
> You open by loudly decrying prejudice.
>
> You then proceed to make implications about an entire country
> based on a single individual.
>
> 10.0 on the Dimbo Meter

Read what I said.. NOT the bits you clipped... dumbo!

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>
>
>> You ought to be ashamed of yourself.....
>
> You need to get a grip, lady.
>
> "A pre-ferment (pte fermentée), also called a sponge, a starter, or
> the mother dough is a fermentation starter used in bread baking. It
> usually consists of a simple mixture of flour, water, and a leavening
> agent (typically yeast)...."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_starter
>
> Because someone you think is nice says my starter is not a "real
> starter"

You asked for a real starter! You got one. You are too stupid to know the
difference.


cuz it's got ....gasp!.... yeast in it and I'm supposed to
> kneal down and accept it as gospel? Sorry, Momma notbob raised no
> such fool. You and your ilk may be bound by some no-independent-
> thought credo, but such is not the case in these parts. Besides, I
> wuz jes kidding around.

Kidding around eh? Nice one.. so long as you are not on the receiving end
eh?

Go for it boy!!!!!

Go back to my original reply and note the
> kidding smiley face. It's you who have raised this to some sort of
> hateful racist jingoistic vandetta. I'd say you have issues, lady.

NO you started on about her nationality. You really are not worth my time.

I know quite a few lovely, kind and helpful people here. YOU are not one of
them.
Boron is a lovely lady, kind enough to try to help you. I trust she will
not be so foolish again.

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
> RegForte wrote:
>> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>>> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that
>>> you don't have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to
>>> attack a kind lady who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this
>>> what Americans have become???
>>
>> You open by loudly decrying prejudice.
>>
>> You then proceed to make implications about an entire country
>> based on a single individual.
>>
>> 10.0 on the Dimbo Meter
>
> Read what I said.. NOT the bits you clipped... dumbo!
>
Reg is more an asshole, but certainly stupid as well. A real crowd pleaser.

On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:

> You really are not worth my time.

Coulda fooled me.

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:11:42 -0500, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:09:17 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
>>Looking for a pizza/bread stone for oven. Yeah, heard about pizza stones,
>>unglazed quarry tiles, yada yada. Cheapest I can order UGQT for is $35 for
>>10 sqr ft. BUT!! ...I can get a 12x12" or 12x16" single flat stone slab of
>>granite or slate for under $10. We got any geologists in the group? What
>>types of stone are heat resistant and inert with respect to food? I know
>>granite is, at room temps, but howzabout at 500 F deg? What other types of
>>flat stone one might find at a tile store, probably for counter tops, etc,
>>that might be aplicable?
>
> I can't help you with the pizza end of it but for bread I highly
> recommend The Dr. Douglas Wonder Baker. There's one on eBay now for 5
> bucks with a day left on the auction. My basil did very well this
> year so I'm gong to use mine for a pesto and sun dried tomato loaf
> later today.
>
> Here's a picture of a loaf when I took it out of the oven.
>
> http://i29.tinypic.com/vi4k2.jpg
>
> Lou

what a strange looking piece of apparatus. looks like it was made of parts
of a beer cooler.

the loaf reminds me of something, but i can't quite put my finger on it.

your pal,
blake

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:51:17 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT), The Ranger
> > wrote:
>
>>On Jul 30, 9:11*am, Christine Dabney > wrote:
>>> http://blog.ruhlman.com/ruhlmancom/2...h-starter.html
>>>
>>So when using cabbage (or grapes), will it impart any additional
>>flavors to the starter?
>>
>>The Ranger
>
> You need nothing more to create a starter than flour, water and
> patience.
>
> Rye is a good one for beginners, and once it gets going, you can
> change the starter over to white flour.
>
> Boron

i am not a baker, but i thought the mystique of, say, san francisco
sourdough was the particular strain of yeast involved (the starter have
been alive since the 1850's or some such). wouldn't your method rely on
any lowlife yeast spores that are hanging around your house?

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:30:10 GMT, notbob wrote:

> On 2009-07-31, Ophelia > wrote:
>
>> Oh a spot of racism it is? Ungrateful pig. Boron is very experienced with
>> sourdough starters. You are lucky she bothered to try to educate you.
>
> Yeah. I'm a dick.
>
> nb ....."He's a rebel and he'll never ever be any good" --song lyric

don't flatter yourself.

blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:11:42 -0500, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>> Here's a picture of a loaf when I took it out of the oven.
>>
>> http://i29.tinypic.com/vi4k2.jpg
>>
>> Lou
>
>
> the loaf reminds me of something, but i can't quite put my finger on it.

A sunburnt ass?

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:51:17 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT), The Ranger
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Christine Dabney > wrote:
>>>> http://blog.ruhlman.com/ruhlmancom/2...h-starter.html
>>>>
>>>So when using cabbage (or grapes), will it impart any additional
>>>flavors to the starter?
>>>
>>>The Ranger
>>
>> You need nothing more to create a starter than flour, water and
>> patience.
>>
>> Rye is a good one for beginners, and once it gets going, you can
>> change the starter over to white flour.
>>
>> Boron
>
> i am not a baker, but i thought the mystique of, say, san francisco
> sourdough was the particular strain of yeast involved (the starter have
> been alive since the 1850's or some such). wouldn't your method rely on
> any lowlife yeast spores that are hanging around your house?
>
Yes, it would. Also, if you happen to have that 1850s San Francisco
starter, and you aren't in San Fran, then over time that "special"
(whatever) will be lost, and will be just like those "lowlife" yeast spores
that are in the area.

Ophelia wrote:

> You ought to be ashamed of yourself and how you represent your country!

Likewise, you vacuum-headed ninnyhammer.

Bob

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:51:36 -0400, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:51:17 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT), The Ranger
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 30, 9:11*am, Christine Dabney > wrote:
>>>> http://blog.ruhlman.com/ruhlmancom/2...h-starter.html
>>>>
>>>So when using cabbage (or grapes), will it impart any additional
>>>flavors to the starter?
>>>
>>>The Ranger
>>
>> You need nothing more to create a starter than flour, water and
>> patience.
>>
>> Rye is a good one for beginners, and once it gets going, you can
>> change the starter over to white flour.
>>
>> Boron
>
>i am not a baker, but i thought the mystique of, say, san francisco
>sourdough was the particular strain of yeast involved (the starter have
>been alive since the 1850's or some such). wouldn't your method rely on
>any lowlife yeast spores that are hanging around your house?
>
>your pal,
>blake


That is a debate that goes round and round all the time among the
online sourdough groups. I can argue it both ways, but really have no
dog in the fight. Starters are a well-met mix of yeast and bacteria,
though.

This is all my opinion, based on about 10 years of working with
sourdough....

I also direct you here to read up on the FAQ from rec.food.sourdough
(some of it is quite old, too, and I know it is maintained, but cannot
verify that it has been physically updated within any time period in
memory...gotta ask 'em, I guess)

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Getting a sour tang in bread is as much technique as starter - I use
sourdough starter instead of yeast for just about all my risen
doughs, and that includes enriched ones such as brioche and challah or
sweet ones such as cinnamon or sticky buns.Those are breads that one
doesn't want a sour taste in and I do not get one.

BUT, if I DO want to make a sourdough bread with a tang to it, I use
long, cool ferments - generally a prefemerment of the sourdough build
(that is, freshening enough starter to have for making my bread),
another preferment of a poolish or biga (a mix of starter, flour(s)
and water, left to sit for at least 8-10 hours, then another one-two
for the fully combined dough (this might be 4-24 hours). Even then,
there are some sourdough starters I prefer for that tang - more
because they are well suited for such long rises, rather than the
taste they, themselves, impart.

Boron

On Jul 30, 7:03*pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:25:56 -0600, Christine Dabney
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:16:51 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
> >>Julia had a guest on PBS/CMCs, years ago, who did the "grab some natural
> >>yeast from anywhere" thing on Js show. *She showed how to use grape skins to
> >>create a starter. *No doubt one could do like Belgian lambic beer brewers
> >>and jest leave a starter open to nature, letting dead flies drop in and
> >>spiders poop in it, etc. *I'm starting simple. *
>
> >>nb
>
> >That was Nancy Silverton, the founder of La Brea Breads... * She has
> >written several books on baking.....and Michael Ruhlman references her
> >method in that link I posted. *
>
> >Christine
>
> And I have some starter from her bakery, that was given to me at
> Daniel Leader's bakery up in the Catskills.
>
> It isn't that you cannot begin a starter with grapes, but it is an
> around-the-bend and unnecessary way to do it. Peter Reinhardt uses
> pineapple juice. Everyone has a gimmick. Gimmicks are not needed. They
> are like ULs...they get perpetuated and passed along without anyone
> verifying their veracity.
>
> Go back and watch that show again....and a few others of the real old
> ones. I tell you, things have really been refined since
> then....simplified, taken back to the very basics. Hell, I don't even
> knead the bread most of the time. I bet if Julia were still around,
> she'd be the first one to endorse the simplicity of the newer artisan
> methods. She was no Luddite.
>
> Even funnier is watching something such as Danielle Forestier making
> baguettes or Esther MacManus make croissants. Watch the video while
> you have Julia's recipes for them in front of you in Mastering the
> Art...Julia is as gracious as can be watching these women do what she,
> herself, wrote many years before.
>
> Boron- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I made mine with Nancy's grape method. It took quite a while & I had
to drag it around with me at first to feed it regularly, but it is a
very nice, healthy starter now...

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:51:42 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
>Der master race has spoken. Sieg Heil!
>
Did you see that thing on tv about "Lucky Lindy"? He thought his
sperm was superior, so he had four families (all at once)... thirteen
children in ten years. Whattaguy.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:09:19 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2009-07-31, notbob > wrote:
>
>> Yikes! The bread nazis are amassing. Hide your impure starters!
>
>Gluden! Gluden!
>
>LOL.....
>
<snork> I understood the reference, for once.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Ophelia was stupid:

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_starter
>>
>> Because someone you think is nice says my starter is not a "real
>> starter"
>
> You asked for a real starter! You got one. You are too stupid to know
> the difference.

Given the choice between Boron and Wikipedia as sources of information, I'm
inclined to choose Wikipedia. Not because Wikipedia is truly authoritative,
but because Boron has much less credibility.

What notbob made was something called a "mixed starter." You can make
FANTASTIC breads from mixed starters; I much prefer them to all-sourdough
starters. I used to make mixed-starter bread every Saturday.

What I think is funny is your passionate participation in this discussion
when you have about as much baking knowledge as one of Sheldon's geese.

Bob

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:05:10 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>> RegForte wrote:
>>> Ophelia wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are a RACIST and your attack was unforgivable. The fact that
>>>> you don't have a clue about sourdough starters is a given, but to
>>>> attack a kind lady who tried to help you beggars belief! Is this
>>>> what Americans have become???
>>>
>>> You open by loudly decrying prejudice.
>>>
>>> You then proceed to make implications about an entire country
>>> based on a single individual.
>>>
>>> 10.0 on the Dimbo Meter
>>
>> Read what I said.. NOT the bits you clipped... dumbo!
>>
>Reg is more an asshole, but certainly stupid as well. A real crowd pleaser.
>
Reg is an asshole and stupid? Since when?


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Jul 31, 8:54*pm, sf > wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:05:10 -0400, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
[snip]
> >Reg is more an asshole, but certainly stupid as well. A real crowd pleaser.
>
> Reg is an asshole and stupid? *Since when?

Reg isn't either but cybertwit can't help mouthing off by showing the
depths of her stupidity and unlimited ass-holishness.

The Ranger

"The Ranger" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 31, 8:54 pm, sf > wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:05:10 -0400, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
[snip]
> >Reg is more an asshole, but certainly stupid as well. A real crowd
> >pleaser.
>
> Reg is an asshole and stupid? Since when?

>Reg isn't either but cybertwit can't help mouthing off by showing the
>depths of her stupidity and unlimited ass-holishness.


Being a fav of yours is not exactly a ringing endorsement, assface.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:34:01 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2009-07-31, Lou Decruss > wrote:
>
>> kitchens. The one I saw yesterday had 8 bucks listed for shipping. I
>> think the 12 buck total would be an acceptable price if I needed
>> another one.
>
>It would be about $16 for me, w/ shipping. Having shipped plenty of stuff
>cuz of ebay, I know this guy is charging top S&H fees for the distance. I
>may hold off for a better deal, though I do like the DDBW.

Shipping fees are the big problem with ebay. 99% of the few problems
we've had with ebay is shipping. I once just drove the item to the
buyer and charged her. We both made out better as she got her item
sooner and I didn't have to pack it. It took me 30 minutes to get to
her home and I got the calculated amount. On the return trip we hit a
bunch of resale stores we normally don't get to. It was an unusually
profitable day.

If I were to sell a DDWD I would require insurance. I've been burned
too many times not to.

>Apparently, they're pretty common on ebay and not many takers.

Very few cook and even less bake anymore. But if you saw that pan
without a loaf of bread on it would you have been interested? I don't
think I would have been.

>Lou, just how much do one of these stones weigh?

2 pounds, 4 3/4 oz.

>> I was reading up just yesterday on starters. I've never done
>> sourdough but I'm going to give it a try. Every time I hear starter
>> I'm reminded of the story Bourdain tells of the drunken baker calling
>> him and asking him to "feeeed da beetch!"
>
>Yes! Just read that book last week. Adam is my inspiration. Note Tony
>also mentions Adam's "experiments" lurking about the kitchen. Sounds like
>rogue sourdoughs, to me.

Well you read it more recently so you remember Adam's name. That's a
great book.

>> I love ham but stopped using the oven for it. I've been doing them in
>> the smoker and they're much better. The bone picks up the smoke and
>> makes the best beans!
>
>I had that last year. I agree, very tasty. I'll do it, too, when I finally
>put together a smoker.

You can do the same thing on a weber kettle.

Lou

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
>
> OTOH, no apologies will be forthcoming. The "bread nazi" thing was merely
> a
> tongue-in-cheek anology (not racism.

That is not what caused my complaint... the following was:

> Der master race has spoken. Sieg Heil!

On 2009-08-01, Ophelia > wrote:
>
> "notbob" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> OTOH, no apologies will be forthcoming. The "bread nazi" thing was merely
>> a
>> tongue-in-cheek anology (not racism.
>
> That is not what caused my complaint... the following was:
>
>> Der master race has spoken. Sieg Heil!

Appears to be a personal problem. My advice, let it go.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
> On 2009-08-01, Ophelia > wrote:
>>
>> "notbob" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> OTOH, no apologies will be forthcoming. The "bread nazi" thing was
>>> merely
>>> a
>>> tongue-in-cheek anology (not racism.
>>
>> That is not what caused my complaint... the following was:
>>
>>> Der master race has spoken. Sieg Heil!
>
> Appears to be a personal problem. My advice, let it go.

Since you are not gracious enough to apologise to that lady, then I suppose
we must, but it will not be forgotten.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:35:48 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:51:36 -0400, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:51:17 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT), The Ranger
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Jul 30, 9:11*am, Christine Dabney > wrote:
>>>>> http://blog.ruhlman.com/ruhlmancom/2...h-starter.html
>>>>>
>>>>So when using cabbage (or grapes), will it impart any additional
>>>>flavors to the starter?
>>>>
>>>>The Ranger
>>>
>>> You need nothing more to create a starter than flour, water and
>>> patience.
>>>
>>> Rye is a good one for beginners, and once it gets going, you can
>>> change the starter over to white flour.
>>>
>>> Boron
>>
>>i am not a baker, but i thought the mystique of, say, san francisco
>>sourdough was the particular strain of yeast involved (the starter have
>>been alive since the 1850's or some such). wouldn't your method rely on
>>any lowlife yeast spores that are hanging around your house?
>>
>>your pal,
>>blake
>
> That is a debate that goes round and round all the time among the
> online sourdough groups. I can argue it both ways, but really have no
> dog in the fight. Starters are a well-met mix of yeast and bacteria,
> though.
>
> This is all my opinion, based on about 10 years of working with
> sourdough....
>
> I also direct you here to read up on the FAQ from rec.food.sourdough
> (some of it is quite old, too, and I know it is maintained, but cannot
> verify that it has been physically updated within any time period in
> memory...gotta ask 'em, I guess)
>
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
>
> Getting a sour tang in bread is as much technique as starter - I use
> sourdough starter instead of yeast for just about all my risen
> doughs, and that includes enriched ones such as brioche and challah or
> sweet ones such as cinnamon or sticky buns.Those are breads that one
> doesn't want a sour taste in and I do not get one.
>
> BUT, if I DO want to make a sourdough bread with a tang to it, I use
> long, cool ferments - generally a prefemerment of the sourdough build
> (that is, freshening enough starter to have for making my bread),
> another preferment of a poolish or biga (a mix of starter, flour(s)
> and water, left to sit for at least 8-10 hours, then another one-two
> for the fully combined dough (this might be 4-24 hours). Even then,
> there are some sourdough starters I prefer for that tang - more
> because they are well suited for such long rises, rather than the
> taste they, themselves, impart.
>
> Boron

o.k. i am unlikely to get into the short weeds here, let alone the tall
ones. i was just wanting to see if my memory of what i have read was
correct.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Merryb >
wrote:

>On Jul 30, 7:03*pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:25:56 -0600, Christine Dabney
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:16:51 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>
>> >>Julia had a guest on PBS/CMCs, years ago, who did the "grab some natural
>> >>yeast from anywhere" thing on Js show. *She showed how to use grape skins to
>> >>create a starter. *No doubt one could do like Belgian lambic beer brewers
>> >>and jest leave a starter open to nature, letting dead flies drop in and
>> >>spiders poop in it, etc. *I'm starting simple. *
>>
>> >>nb
>>
>> >That was Nancy Silverton, the founder of La Brea Breads... * She has
>> >written several books on baking.....and Michael Ruhlman references her
>> >method in that link I posted. *
>>
>> >Christine
>>
>> And I have some starter from her bakery, that was given to me at
>> Daniel Leader's bakery up in the Catskills.
>>
>> It isn't that you cannot begin a starter with grapes, but it is an
>> around-the-bend and unnecessary way to do it. Peter Reinhardt uses
>> pineapple juice. Everyone has a gimmick. Gimmicks are not needed. They
>> are like ULs...they get perpetuated and passed along without anyone
>> verifying their veracity.

>
>I made mine with Nancy's grape method. It took quite a while & I had
>to drag it around with me at first to feed it regularly, but it is a
>very nice, healthy starter now...

As I said, patience is important in creating a sourdough starter and
the secret to the tangiest sourdough breads.

Boron

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 14:07:47 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2009-08-01, Boron Elgar > wrote:

>OTOH, no apologies will be forthcoming. The "bread nazi" thing was merely a
>tongue-in-cheek anology (not racism. I'm mostly German, ferchrysakes) and
>anyone responding with direct name calling like "pigs" and "assholes"
>deserves none. In fact, considering the balls-up response of some, I don't
>even need to apologize for thinking Boron was just another rfc
>dude/geezer/curmudgeon. The sweet dear old lady myth was pretty much laid
>to rest in her last post. Ain't life a goof!

I did not request an apology. Ophelia, in her kindness, did.

It does appear though, that you seem to embrace all sorts of myths -
about foodstuffs *and* posters, and that shortcoming leads to a lot of
foolishness.

I have been posting here for at least a decade, but you will find that
what I post is accurate. I do not post as fact anything that I cannot
reliably back up and verify. I offer advice on topics about which I
maintain a certain level of expertise, what one of my other Usenet
groups refers to as "Cower Mortal," topics. Why woudl I bother
posting regugitated google links or unreliable and ever-changing Wiki
noted. Oh, I'll use either to indicate someone else's errors,
especially when confronted with either as "proof," when I know it to
be false, but I prefer a more academic approach to knowledge.
>
>You can all now return to your dull lives.

I do not have a dull life.

Boron

On 2009-08-01, Boron Elgar > wrote:

> It does appear though, that you seem to embrace all sorts of myths -

I consider all arguments rather than blindly accept possible dogma from
anyone, time in rfc notwithstanding. I have no faith whatsoever in those
who consider themselves infalible.

nb