http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm

Haggis is English, historian says

A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
claimed.

Historian Catherine Brown told the Daily Telegraph that she found
references to the dish inside a 1616 book called The English Hus-Wife.

The title would pre-date Robert Burns' poem To A Haggis by 171 years.

But ex-world champion haggis maker Robert Patrick insisted: "Nobody's
going to believe it."

Ms Brown said the book, by Gervase Markham, indicates that haggis was
first eaten in England and subsequently popularised by the Scots.

She told the paper that the first mention she could find of Scottish
haggis was in 1747.

"It was originally an English dish. In 1615, Gervase Markham says that
it is very popular among all people in England," she said.

"By the middle of the 18th century another English cookery writer,
Hannah Glasse, has a recipe that she calls Scotch haggis, the haggis
that we know today."

Her findings are due to be broadcast in a documentary on STV in
Scotland.

But Mr Patrick said the idea haggis originated in England is akin to
claims by the Dutch and Chinese to have invented golf.

He added: "Anything that's to do with Scotland, everybody wants to get
a part of.

"We've nurtured the thing for all these years, we've developed it, so I
think very much it is a Scottish product.

"It's one of the mainstays of my business' economy so we'd never give
it up."

James Macsween, whose Edinburgh-based company makes haggis, said it
will remain a Scottish icon whatever its origin.

He said even if the haggis was eaten in England long before Burns made
it famous, Scotland has done a better job of looking after it.

And he added: "I didn't hear of Shakespeare writing a poem about it."

Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
> Haggis is English, historian says

<SNIP>

But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.


--
Michaelangelo
Self-catering Holiday Accommodation for Disabled People
www.woodhead-cottage.co.uk

Quoth "Adam Hunt" >, and I quote:

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
>Haggis is English, historian says
>
>A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>claimed.
>
>Historian Catherine Brown told the Daily Telegraph that she found
>references to the dish inside a 1616 book called The English Hus-Wife.
>
>The title would pre-date Robert Burns' poem To A Haggis by 171 years.
>
>But ex-world champion haggis maker Robert Patrick insisted: "Nobody's
>going to believe it."
>
>Ms Brown said the book, by Gervase Markham, indicates that haggis was
>first eaten in England and subsequently popularised by the Scots.
>
>She told the paper that the first mention she could find of Scottish
>haggis was in 1747.
>
>"It was originally an English dish. In 1615, Gervase Markham says that
>it is very popular among all people in England," she said.
>
>"By the middle of the 18th century another English cookery writer,
>Hannah Glasse, has a recipe that she calls Scotch haggis, the haggis
>that we know today."
>
>Her findings are due to be broadcast in a documentary on STV in
>Scotland.
>
>But Mr Patrick said the idea haggis originated in England is akin to
>claims by the Dutch and Chinese to have invented golf.
>
>He added: "Anything that's to do with Scotland, everybody wants to get
>a part of.
>
>"We've nurtured the thing for all these years, we've developed it, so I
>think very much it is a Scottish product.
>
>"It's one of the mainstays of my business' economy so we'd never give
>it up."
>
>James Macsween, whose Edinburgh-based company makes haggis, said it
>will remain a Scottish icon whatever its origin.
>
>He said even if the haggis was eaten in England long before Burns made
>it famous, Scotland has done a better job of looking after it.
>
>And he added: "I didn't hear of Shakespeare writing a poem about it."


This isn't exactly news. You just have to look in the Oxford
English Dictionary, where the first two examples of the word come
from English cookery books dating from about 1420 and 1430.
This is long before the 1616 book that the seemingly incompetent
historian Catherine Brown has found.

The earlist recorded Scotish example is from 1508,
from William Dunbar:
"The gallowis gaipis eftir thy graceles gruntill,
As thow wald for ane haggeis."

How come Catherine Brown couldn't find any mention of Scottish
haggis before 1747? Did she never think of looking in the
dictionaries?

The OED notes: "Now considered specially Scotch, but a popular
dish in English cookery down to the beginning of the 18th
century."

And the Scottish National Dictionary agrees:
"Now regarded as a traditionally Scottish dish, but also popular
in England until the beginning of the 18th cent. and still made
in n.Eng. with some variation of the ingredients."

No one knows the origin of the word, and no one can say that the
dish (in its many variants) was invented in either England or
Scotland. All we know for sure is that it used to be widespread
all over Britain and it has survived longer in Scotland.

--
James

In message >, Michaelangelo
> writes
>Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>
>> Haggis is English, historian says
>
><SNIP>
>
>But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.

Judging the mess that willing for a shilling slappers
and their vomit comic companions leave on the beach
on Saturday nights, I'm not too shore I want to see
any evidence. It's bad enough having mogs disturbing the
peace when they're feline groovy.

--
James Follett. http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett http://www.bevanwilson.co.uk/media/files/Stro
ke-rec.pdf http://www.powcorp.com/title/view/401/ice
http://www.radioreviews.org/

Adam wrote on Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:19:19 +0000 (UTC):

> Haggis is English, historian says

> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two
> hundred years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an
> historian has claimed.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised by seeing the recipe but I expect that
offal sausage arose in both countries and at about the same time, It
just lingered longer in Scotland.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In message >, Pam the
goose > writes

>Watch the crossposting.

Nothing to worry about unless added to. They are within the net news
compliant number, are subject-related, and they are cross-posted -- not
individually posted. All within the guidelines of the RFC1855.
Individual posting is the big NO NO. At least it was about twenty years
ago when I had a JAnet AUP muppet come down on me like a tonne of pricks
for that.

England's bats make me weep at times.

--
James Follett. http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett http://www.bevanwilson.co.uk/media/files/Stro
ke-rec.pdf http://www.powcorp.com/title/view/401/ice
http://www.radioreviews.org/

Adam Hunt wrote:

> Haggis is English, historian says

Has anyone ever tried eating English haggis? If so, what's it like?

--
Facts are sacred ... but comment is free

Adam Hunt wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
> Haggis is English, historian says
>
> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
> claimed.

The English willingly sent it to Scotland. <eg>

Dora

"Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
> Haggis is English, historian says
>
> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
> claimed.
>

And this is a surprise to you?

Everyone knows the very best haggis is that caught in the wild in England.
True, the wild haggis is descendant from escaped captive haggis in the 19th
century but it is now, to all intents and purposes, wild. Haggis farms
were one of the early victims of EU rules and now no longer exist.

All this "sheep's stomach" stuff is just a myth to protect the wild
population from over hunting.

;-)

Brian

Adam Hunt wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
> Haggis is English, historian says
>
> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
> claimed.

Ever seen French bag pipes?

They look, structurally just like Scottish bag pipes, but in Normandy,
where they are still played, they often have the wood of the pipes
painted white with some light gilding, touches of gold on the white
paint and love brocaded and brightly colored fabric for the air bladder.

The example i saw was a 1700's rococo bag pipes, very pretty.
Unfortunately they sound just as dreadful as the Scottish versions

>
--

Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://fredeeky.typepad.com/fredeeky.../sf_anthem.mp3

"Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>
> Haggis is English, historian says
>
> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
> claimed.

Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because there
is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an English
rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate basically much
the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north of England.

Allan

Mr. wrote on Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:21:14 -0700:


> Adam Hunt wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>
>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>
>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two
>> hundred years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an
>> historian has claimed.

> Ever seen French bag pipes?

> They look, structurally just like Scottish bag pipes, but in
> Normandy, where they are still played, they often have the
> wood of the pipes painted white with some light gilding,
> touches of gold on the white paint and love brocaded and
> brightly colored fabric for the air bladder.

> The example i saw was a 1700's rococo bag pipes, very pretty.
> Unfortunately they sound just as dreadful as the Scottish versions

Do they work like Northumbrian or Irish pipes with a kind of arm
operated bellows? I've even seen a picture of a gentleman of the court
of Louis XIV of France playing such pipes. Both of those are less of an
outdoor instrument than the Scottish pipes.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

And perfected and exported by Scotland!
--
Member - Liberal International This is
Ici God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Never Satan President Republic!
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God". They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. - Ps 53:1

The Doctor burst on the scene, and said:
> And perfected and exported by Scotland!

Actually, in this day and age, it's most likely made in China.

--
Michaelangelo
Self-catering, Highland holiday accommodation for disabled people
www.woodhead-cottage.co.uk

"Allan" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>
>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>
>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>> claimed.
>
> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an
> English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north
> of England.

All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????

"conwaycaine" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>>
>>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>>
>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>>> claimed.
>>
>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an
>> English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north
>> of England.
>
> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????


I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.

Allan

"Allan" > wrote in
:

>
> "conwaycaine" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Allan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>>>
>>>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>>>
>>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>>>> claimed.
>>>
>>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just
>>> because there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't
>>> prove it was an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I
>>> suspect that they ate basically much the same in the south of
>>> Scotland as they did in the north of England.
>>
>> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????
>
>
> I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYRM2SEJXsc

"Allan" > wrote in message
...
>
> "conwaycaine" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Allan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>>>
>>>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>>>
>>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>>>> claimed.
>>>
>>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
>>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was
>>> an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
>>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the
>>> north of England.
>>
>> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????
>
>
> I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.

Meat Loaf, properly prepared, isn't all that bad.

"Michaelangelo" > wrote in message
...
> Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>
>> Haggis is English, historian says
>
> <SNIP>
>
> But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.

That's because we don't have the right shaped hills!

"Allan" > wrote in message
...
>
> "conwaycaine" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Allan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>>>
>>>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>>>
>>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>>>> claimed.
>>>
>>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
>>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was
>>> an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
>>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the
>>> north of England.
>>
>> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????
>
>
> I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.

You don't know what you are missing!

"alan.holmes" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allan" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "conwaycaine" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Allan" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Adam Hunt" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
>>>>>
>>>>> Haggis is English, historian says
>>>>>
>>>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
>>>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
>>>>> claimed.
>>>>
>>>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
>>>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was
>>>> an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
>>>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the
>>>> north of England.
>>>
>>> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????
>>
>>
>> I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.
>
> You don't know what you are missing!

I ain't missing anything :-) Eat meat loaf and haggis. I was just playing
about with Meat Loaf lyrics!

Allan
>
>

I was amused by this revelation. Also at how many references to
"green haggis" exist.

http://greenhaggis.com/2009/08/04/ha...-not-scottish/

http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/roller/dunca...a_green_haggis

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/318403/1...Haggis_and_Ham