The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
about this...

Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
country/region of origin?

Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?

Any thoughts?
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

"ChattyCathy" ha scritto nel messaggio >



> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking>
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually> living
> and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable> country/region of
> origin?
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by>
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?

I have lots more thoughts than I am going to share, but I will say that I
didn't cook genuinely Italian until I studied it, cooked it and shopped for
it here. There are lots of reasons, but the hugest one is that the kitchen
is a part of the culture and until you get that you got nothing. As an
American I had attiitudes and habits that altered what I cooked. It could
be made easier, ahead of time, cheaper, spicier... I felt at liberty to
screw around with what was to me only a recipe, not an expression of
Christmas, Sunday lunch at Grandmas's or supper with my friend's family.
Another problem is ingredients, which can be more or less successfully
substituted, but without a lot of experience with the real thing, it's
damned hard to guess what will do.

(I do now screw around with recipes, but with some savvy behind the act and
a lot of Sunday lunches at Grandma's etc. behind me. I also can suggest
substitutes that work when they exist-- they don't always.)

Maybe a really dedicated learner could do better than I did, but the less
kitchen bafìggage they went in with the better the chances, I believe.

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:14:40 +0200, ChattyCathy
> wrote:

>The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>about this...
>
>Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>country/region of origin?
>
>Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
>Any thoughts?

You're thinking of Rick Bayless and Julia Child? I think more than
just knowledge of the cuisine is needed, because you're acting as a
bridge between two cuisines/cultures. Master of the introduction and
all that stuff. Personality and a good business sense are big
factors. It helps to have a working knowledge on the subject, of
course, but you don't need to be an expert to succeed. If you don't
have the expertise, you can always hire someone who does.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"ChattyCathy" > wrote in message
...
> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> about this...
>
> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> country/region of origin?

No - not really.


>
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?

Any thoughts?
> --
> Cheers
> Chatty Cathy

It's just not enough - IMHO the ofactory (smell ) of ethnic plays such an
important part, no class or classes can ever cement the taste and smell of
street food.

I also believe the Street foods amd such an important part and that can
seldome be learned.

Dimitri

Giusi wrote:
>
> "ChattyCathy" ha scritto nel messaggio >
>
>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking>
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually>
>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable>
>> country/region of origin?
>> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to'
>> by> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> I have lots more thoughts than I am going to share, but I will say
> that I didn't cook genuinely Italian until I studied it, cooked it and
> shopped for
> it here.

Ah. I thought you might "have lots more thoughts" on the subject - being
one of the (few) r.f.c. posters here who actually has hands-on
experience with this.

FWIW, I agree.

> There are lots of reasons, but the hugest one is that the
> kitchen
> is a part of the culture and until you get that you got nothing.

Something that hadn't occurred to me, but of course it must play an
important role.

> As an American I had attiitudes and habits that altered what I cooked.
> It could be made easier, ahead of time, cheaper, spicier... I felt at
> liberty to screw around with what was to me only a recipe, not an
> expression of Christmas, Sunday lunch at Grandmas's or supper with my
> friend's family.

Don't we all (sometimes)?

> Another problem is ingredients, which can be more or
> less successfully substituted, but without a lot of experience with
> the real thing, it's damned hard to guess what will do.


I am not surprised.

>
> (I do now screw around with recipes, but with some savvy behind the
> act and a lot of Sunday lunches at Grandma's etc. behind me. I also
> can suggest substitutes that work when they exist-- they don't
> always.)
>

Again, I am not surprised.

> Maybe a really dedicated learner could do better than I did,

I doubt it...

> but the less kitchen baggage they went in with the better the chances,
> I believe.

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

ChattyCathy wrote:
> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> about this...
>
> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> country/region of origin?
>
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?



My sister in law's stepdaughter is a bit of a loose cannon, to say the
least. For years she has been talking about going to Greece and opening
the ultimate Greek cooking school. She is not Greek. I don't know if
they would even let her into the country because she is still living in
a half way house after having spent close to a year in jail for fraud.

"Dimitri" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>> about this...
>>
>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>> country/region of origin?
>
> No - not really.
>
>
>>
>> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?
>> --
>> Cheers
>> Chatty Cathy
>
> It's just not enough - IMHO the ofactory (smell ) of ethnic plays such an
> important part, no class or classes can ever cement the taste and smell of
> street food.
>
> I also believe the Street foods amd such an important part and that can
> seldome be learned.
>
>

Agreed. One also needs to be born with the innate ability, same as being a
natural athelete or having an ear for rmusic... all the piano lessons in the
world won't help one bit when one has a tin ear. Anyone who admits that
they had to reach middle age before feeling confident that they could
diverge from a recipe I'm positive can't cook a lick. One needs to be born
with the ability and then serve an apprenticeship from the time one could
walk. Taking cooking lessons as an adult is a total waste, makes as much
sense for a forty year old to begin ballet lessons... real cooking is indeed
a ballet. Chefs like Pepin and Yan are naturals and served a formal
aprenticeship from since they were young children... Julia Child was an
important TV personality in the culinary entertainment world but she had no
natural cooking ability and could barely follow a recipe, she was a paint by
numbers kind of cook... Julia's only claim to culinary fame is that she was
first... and even that was arranged for her by her influential husband
because she was bored. I never enjoyed watching Julia Child, watching her
play in the kitchen was like watching ringers play the Three Stooges.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
m...
> ChattyCathy wrote:
>> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>> about this... Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert"
>> at cooking
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>> country/region of origin? Would taking a course (in your home country) or
>> being taught 'how to' by
>> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> My sister in law's stepdaughter is a bit of a loose cannon, to say the
> least. For years she has been talking about going to Greece and opening
> the ultimate Greek cooking school. She is not Greek. I don't know if they
> would even let her into the country because she is still living in a half
> way house after having spent close to a year in jail for fraud.

As a criminal she can do very well in Greece... in Greek government...
what's the Greek word for Czar?

ChattyCathy wrote:
>
> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> about this...
>
> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> country/region of origin?

Not in the slightest. That's like trying to learn lab-based research
without ever working in a lab. Need to be 'on site' to get the entire
story.

>
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?

Not in the slightest. When people emigrate, they typically do not find
all the ingredients or equipment needed to cook 'native' or 'authentic'
cuisine properly. Substitutions are made cos there isn't any choice. The
cuisine gets watered down. Doesn't mean it's 'bad'; just different.

Grandmother may be an expert in cooking her local cuisine, but in a
foreign (to her) setting it isn't going to be the same as she would have
cooked at 'home'. Not a bad place to start but there's more to be learnt
in the proper setting.

wrote:
>The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>about this...
>Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>country/region of origin?

It would be hard to become a truly accomplished master of another culture's
cuisine without living there, if only because the daily ways in which people
cook and eat wouldn't always come through in cooking courses, private
experimentation or cookbooks. There is also the question of different
ingredients that may not be available outside the country under consideration.
Still, I think one can learn a lot about different cuisines without living in
those cultures. I already knew a lot about Indian food before actually going
there on a research grant in 2000.

>Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?

I think it would do some but not all of the trick. Who's to say that the person
teaching is considered the best cook? Even if they're good at specific dishes,
that may not mean they're great at everything. So, I think comparison is very
useful. Through comparison, regional variants and individual family touches
stand out.

Orlando

wrote:
>You're thinking of Rick Bayless and Julia Child? I think more than
>just knowledge of the cuisine is needed, because you're acting as a
>bridge between two cuisines/cultures. Master of the introduction and
>all that stuff. Personality and a good business sense are big
>factors. It helps to have a working knowledge on the subject, of
>course, but you don't need to be an expert to succeed. If you don't
>have the expertise, you can always hire someone who does.


I think we might do well to separate those kinds of bridge figures with the
gifts of gab and business from the oftentimes quiet experts who aren't trying
to parley their newfound expertise into a living. I think most people from
different cultures are thrilled to have Westerners interested in what they eat.
But, once a self styled expert begins making a living from their endeavors,
issues of appropriation emerge. In another thread, I expressed my discomfort
with Rick Bayless opening swanky, high priced Mexican restaurants in place of
Mexican chefs. If any of you taught someone how to prepare your family's most
cherished recipes, how would you feel if they turned around and either
published a cookbook or opened a restaurant without sharing royalties or
profits with you?

Orlando

On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:39:57 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol
> wrote:

wrote:
>>You're thinking of Rick Bayless and Julia Child? I think more than
>>just knowledge of the cuisine is needed, because you're acting as a
>>bridge between two cuisines/cultures. Master of the introduction and
>>all that stuff. Personality and a good business sense are big
>>factors. It helps to have a working knowledge on the subject, of
>>course, but you don't need to be an expert to succeed. If you don't
>>have the expertise, you can always hire someone who does.
>
>
>I think we might do well to separate those kinds of bridge figures with the
>gifts of gab and business from the oftentimes quiet experts who aren't trying
>to parley their newfound expertise into a living. I think most people from
>different cultures are thrilled to have Westerners interested in what they eat.
>But, once a self styled expert begins making a living from their endeavors,
>issues of appropriation emerge. In another thread, I expressed my discomfort
>with Rick Bayless opening swanky, high priced Mexican restaurants in place of
>Mexican chefs. If any of you taught someone how to prepare your family's most
>cherished recipes, how would you feel if they turned around and either
>published a cookbook or opened a restaurant without sharing royalties or
>profits with you?
>

I could look at it as a glass half full and brag that he'd still be a
nobody if it wasn't for me.

--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else
to hold them.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
> But, once a self styled expert begins making a living from their
> endeavors,
> issues of appropriation emerge. In another thread, I expressed my
> discomfort
> with Rick Bayless opening swanky, high priced Mexican restaurants in place
> of
> Mexican chefs. If any of you taught someone how to prepare your family's
> most
> cherished recipes, how would you feel if they turned around and either
> published a cookbook or opened a restaurant without sharing royalties or
> profits with you?
>
> Orlando

I don't see that as a problem. Your math teacher and English teacher don't
get royalties if you make it big in the future either. Thousands of
commercially made foods are derivatives of some family recipe at some time.

Chatty Cathy wrote:

> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually living
> and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable country/region of
> origin?
>
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by a
> relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?

The biggest problem is getting the right ingredients. The second-biggest
problem is knowing when you've succeeded: If you never tasted the authentic
thing, how do you know if you've made it correctly?

On the other hand, I think you can learn an authentic cooking *style*
without cooking authentic food. For example, Mario Batali has lived in Italy
and is pretty well acknowledged as an expert on Italian cuisine, but he
doesn't import all his seafood from Italy; he uses whatever is local to the
restaurant where he's cooking. In that sense, his *food* is not
authentically Italian (because he's using snow crab instead of langostino,
for example), but his *cooking* is. I think someone could learn to cook that
kind of Italian-inspired food with that same degree of proficiency without
ever visiting Italy.

Bob

"Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Chatty Cathy wrote:
>
>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking>>
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>> living>> and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>> country/region of
>> origin?

> On the other hand, I think you can learn an authentic cooking *style*>
> without cooking authentic food. For example, Mario Batali has lived in
> Italy> and is pretty well acknowledged as an expert on Italian cuisine,
> but he
> doesn't import all his seafood from Italy; he uses whatever is local to
> the> restaurant where he's cooking. In that sense, his *food* is not>
> authentically Italian (because he's using snow crab instead of langostino,
> for example), but his *cooking* is. I think someone could learn to cook
> that> kind of Italian-inspired food with that same degree of proficiency
> without
> ever visiting Italy.
>
> Bob
I don't agree about Batali. He is accepted as an expert in the US. No one
in Italy knows who he is and if they ate a typical meal of his, they
wouldn't find it very authentic.
1) he tarts things up, elaborates things that are meant to be simple
2) his recipes tend to be heavier and loaded toward "feast" food-- as well
they might because his restaurants are pricey.
3) his menu tends toward the "every dish a star" line of thought which is
very un-Italian. Here one pairs light with heavier, simple with more
elaborate and balance is considered very important. Much of what works in a
NY restaurant is what one calls esaggerato in Italy. Probably the highest
compliment one gets here is "squisito ma niente esaggerato."

"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
>> Chatty Cathy wrote:
>>
>>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking>>
>>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>>> living>> and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>>> country/region of
>>> origin?
>
>> On the other hand, I think you can learn an authentic cooking *style*>
>> without cooking authentic food. For example, Mario Batali has lived in
>> Italy> and is pretty well acknowledged as an expert on Italian cuisine,
>> but he
>> doesn't import all his seafood from Italy; he uses whatever is local to
>> the> restaurant where he's cooking. In that sense, his *food* is not>
>> authentically Italian (because he's using snow crab instead of
>> langostino,
>> for example), but his *cooking* is. I think someone could learn to cook
>> that> kind of Italian-inspired food with that same degree of proficiency
>> without
>> ever visiting Italy.
>>
>> Bob
> I don't agree about Batali. He is accepted as an expert in the US. No one
> in Italy knows who he is and if they ate a typical meal of his, they
> wouldn't find it very authentic.
> 1) he tarts things up, elaborates things that are meant to be simple
> 2) his recipes tend to be heavier and loaded toward "feast" food-- as well
> they might because his restaurants are pricey.
> 3) his menu tends toward the "every dish a star" line of thought which is
> very un-Italian. Here one pairs light with heavier, simple with more
> elaborate and balance is considered very important. Much of what works in
> a NY restaurant is what one calls esaggerato in Italy. Probably the
> highest compliment one gets here is "squisito ma niente esaggerato."
meaning, "perfect. not overdone?"

"Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio >>

> On the other hand, I think you can learn an authentic cooking *style*>
> without cooking authentic food. For example, Mario Batali has lived in
> Italy> and is pretty well acknowledged as an expert on Italian cuisine

OK, here is what is generally thought of as an expert on Italian food in
Italy. It wasn't so easy to find things in English! The first link is to
the restaurant webpage.
http://www.casavissani.it/


http://www.igougo.com/travel_blog/po...Star_Chef.html

Vissani has become more a food journalist than an active chef in the
kitchen. His restaurant is staffed by 14 chefs including family members and
his word is still law. He still creates a lot of what shall be done, as do
Keller, Batali, etc. His produce etc. come from dedicated sources who grow
what he wants as he wants it. He is famous for refusing to allow anything
but the best into his kitchen-- if it isn't good today, it comes off the
menu.

His wine cellar is mind boggling. He seems hyperactive to me, traveling all
over Italy to present TV pieces on specialties of the various regions at an
age when most would put their feet up a bit. My friends would call him
obsessed, and maybe he is. But if you ever chance to be near enough to
reserve a meal at Vissani, you'll be nuts not to do it.

Giusi wrote:

> I don't agree about Batali. He is accepted as an expert in the US. No one
> in Italy knows who he is and if they ate a typical meal of his, they
> wouldn't find it very authentic.
> 1) he tarts things up, elaborates things that are meant to be simple

I disagree with this. Most of the dishes I've seen him make are quite
simple. I've seen him espouse simple food dozens if not hundreds of times.
The philosophy he follows is to get the best ingredients possible, treat
them with respect, and present them in a way which highlights their
qualities. Batali is also quite humble about his cooking; he says that the
best Italian cooking is *not* in the great Italian restaurants (or in any of
his restaurants), it's in the homes where regional Italian recipes have been
honed and tweaked for generation after generation.


> 2) his recipes tend to be heavier and loaded toward "feast" food-- as well
> they might because his restaurants are pricey.

OK, maybe we're comparing apples and oranges. I'm not talking about Batali's
restaurant food; I'm talking about the food I've seen him prepare on his
"Molto Mario" show. *Sometimes* he does "feast" food; e.g., I remember him
doing a show about the food on St. Joseph's Day. But in the main he features
typical family food from one specific region of Italy, and I haven't seen
him prepare anything on that show which was too complicated for even a
cooking novice as inept as Sheldon to prepare.


> 3) his menu tends toward the "every dish a star" line of thought which is
> very un-Italian. Here one pairs light with heavier, simple with more
> elaborate and balance is considered very important. Much of what works in
> a NY restaurant is what one calls esaggerato in Italy. Probably the
> highest compliment one gets here is "squisito ma niente esaggerato."

Now you're talking about an entire *meal* experience rather than about
individual dishes. So I'll go ahead and talk about Batali's restaurants,
since that's the topic you seem to want to discuss (though I've never been
to any of them, and I don't know if you have either). If diners are ordering
a la carte, of course they have the option to order a succession of heavy
dishes. But they also have the option to craft a succession which balances
heavy with light. If you want to talk about the "whole meal" experience as
conceived by the chef, then you have to look at tasting menus. Here is the
tasting menu from B&B, one of Batali's restaurants in Las Vegas:

Crudo Misto – Tuna, “Gazpacho” and Insalata Bottarga
Grilled Baby Octopus with Salt Roasted Potatoes and Celery Pesto
Bucatini Con Le Sarde – Fennel, Onion and Pinenuts
Swordfish Involtini with Marsala and Capers
Housemade Ricotta Fresca
Gilcrease Melon Sorbetto with Sicilian Pistachio Granita

That doesn't look heavy or exaggerated to me. Do you really consider that to
be heavy and exaggerated? I can see where it could be viewed as an "every
dish a star" menu, though, and I don't consider that to be a flaw.

Bob

"cybercat" ha scritto nel messaggio

> meaning, "perfect. not overdone?"

Meaning delicious and not exaggerated in any way. It's a concept that
doesn't come that easily to the adventurous international muncher... of
which I have been one most of my life.

"Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote:
>
>> I don't agree about Batali. He is accepted as an expert in the US.
>> 1) he tarts things up, elaborates things that are meant to be simple
>
> I disagree with this. Most of the dishes I've seen him make are quite>
> simple. I've seen him espouse simple food dozens if not hundreds of
> times.> The philosophy he follows is to get the best ingredients possible,
> treat
> them with respect, and present them in a way which highlights their>
> qualities.
Which is the cornerstone philosophy of Italian cookery.

Batali is also quite humble about his cooking; he says that the> best
Italian cooking is *not* in the great Italian restaurants (or in any of >
his restaurants), it's in the homes where regional Italian recipes have been
> honed and tweaked for generation after generation.


Every Italian believe his home has the best... some are deluded.

>> 2) his recipes tend to be heavier and loaded toward "feast" food-- as
>> well>> they might because his restaurants are pricey.
>
> OK, maybe we're comparing apples and oranges. I'm not talking about
> Batali's> restaurant food; I'm talking about the food I've seen him
> prepare on his> "Molto Mario" show.

I can't talk about anything else. We don''t get US TV here.

*Sometimes* he does "feast" food; e.g., I remember him
> doing a show about the food on St. Joseph's Day. But in the main he
> features> typical family food from one specific region of Italy, and I
> haven't seen> him prepare anything on that show which was too complicated
> for even a > cooking novice as inept as Sheldon to prepare.

I know his dad makes salumi, but Spam?

>> 3) his menu tends toward the "every dish a star" line of thought which
>> is>> very un-Italian. Here one pairs light with heavier, simple with
>> more>> elaborate and balance is considered very important. Much of what
>> works in
>> a NY restaurant is what one calls esaggerato in Italy. Probably the>>
>> highest compliment one gets here is "squisito ma niente esaggerato."
>
> Now you're talking about an entire *meal* experience rather than about>
> individual dishes. So I'll go ahead and talk about Batali's restaurants,>
> since that's the topic you seem to want to discuss (though I've never been
> to any of them, and I don't know if you have either). If diners are
> ordering> a la carte, of course they have the option to order a succession
> of heavy
> dishes. But they also have the option to craft a succession which
> balances> heavy with light. If you want to talk about the "whole meal"
> experience as
> conceived by the chef, then you have to look at tasting menus. Here is
> the> tasting menu from B&B, one of Batali's restaurants in Las Vegas:
>
> Crudo Misto – Tuna, “Gazpacho” and Insalata Bottarga
> Grilled Baby Octopus with Salt Roasted Potatoes and Celery Pesto
> Bucatini Con Le Sarde – Fennel, Onion and Pinenuts
> Swordfish Involtini with Marsala and Capers
> Housemade Ricotta Fresca
> Gilcrease Melon Sorbetto with Sicilian Pistachio Granita

To an Italian cook that is heavy... protein of fish or cheese in every
course except the dolce, and every dish "done up." Veg is presented as a
garnish. I serve salt roasted tiny potatoes, but as an antipasto on their
own as they originated, and with fresh goat cheese for a feast meal. I
wouldn't throw a couple on a plate with some fish. They are exquisite and
have a unique flavor which is appreciated best alone with some very fresh
white wine.

> That doesn't look heavy or exaggerated to me. Do you really consider that
> to> be heavy and exaggerated? I can see where it could be viewed as an
> "every> dish a star" menu, though, and I don't consider that to be a flaw.

To me it is both, but as an American-born I would think that if one were
having a once in a lifetime experience for tasting the work of a chef, so
what? Every dish a star IS exaggerated. We eat like that only at weddings,
where the law is too much of everything and everyone should go home in pain.
I have eaten like that at various tasting feasts, but Italian cookery per se
(note the NYC ref.) it is not.

When the IACP Italy chapter has its annual meetings the restaurant chosen
usually tries a menu that complicated and the result is you go away feeling
bad and sleepy and you can't remember anything in particular of what you
ate.

On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:03:22 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> Chatty Cathy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking>>
>>>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>>>> living>> and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>>>> country/region of
>>>> origin?
>>
>>> On the other hand, I think you can learn an authentic cooking *style*>
>>> without cooking authentic food. For example, Mario Batali has lived in
>>> Italy> and is pretty well acknowledged as an expert on Italian cuisine,
>>> but he
>>> doesn't import all his seafood from Italy; he uses whatever is local to
>>> the> restaurant where he's cooking. In that sense, his *food* is not>
>>> authentically Italian (because he's using snow crab instead of
>>> langostino,
>>> for example), but his *cooking* is. I think someone could learn to cook
>>> that> kind of Italian-inspired food with that same degree of proficiency
>>> without
>>> ever visiting Italy.
>>>
>>> Bob
>> I don't agree about Batali. He is accepted as an expert in the US. No one
>> in Italy knows who he is and if they ate a typical meal of his, they
>> wouldn't find it very authentic.
>> 1) he tarts things up, elaborates things that are meant to be simple
>> 2) his recipes tend to be heavier and loaded toward "feast" food-- as well
>> they might because his restaurants are pricey.
>> 3) his menu tends toward the "every dish a star" line of thought which is
>> very un-Italian. Here one pairs light with heavier, simple with more
>> elaborate and balance is considered very important. Much of what works in
>> a NY restaurant is what one calls esaggerato in Italy. Probably the
>> highest compliment one gets here is "squisito ma niente esaggerato."
>meaning, "perfect. not overdone?"
>

I haven't ever eaten at any Mario Batali restaurant as far as I know.
The closest I've been is walking past his father's place in Seattle -
after closing hours.

<sigh>
darn it all

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote:
>

> Now you're talking about an entire *meal* experience rather than about>
> individual dishes.

No Italian thinks of food in any other way, and most of them also think of
wine at the same time.

Giusi wrote:

> Every Italian believe his home has the best... some are deluded.

LOL! I remember recently watching an episode of "Molto Mario" where Batali
started talking about hospitality in Italy. He said that many Italians have
two pantries, one which contains store-bought goods and the other which
contains such things as homemade wines and home-canned items. (He was
featuring foods from Friuli, and was about to make home-canned tuna.) If a
guest is given things from the first pantry, it's just standard hospitality,
but if a host brings out the homemade wine and the home-preserved sardines
(for example), it ramps up the hospitality to a higher level. Then I
remembered my months in Rimini, where the hotel owner (as gregarious a
person as I've ever met) used to favor us with wine made in his family's
estate in Soave: It was an honor to drink it, and I appreciated the gesture,
but I didn't *like* the wine very much!


> I can't talk about anything else. We don''t get US TV here.

OK, and since you explained the cost of your Internet connection, I'm not
going to insult you by recommending streaming video! But if you can find
DVDs of the "Molto Mario" series, I think you might enjoy watching it.


>> *Sometimes* he does "feast" food; e.g., I remember him doing a show about
>> the food on St. Joseph's Day. But in the main he features typical family
>> food from one specific region of Italy, and I haven't seen him prepare
>> anything on that show which was too complicated for even a cooking novice
>> as inept as Sheldon to prepare.
>
> I know his dad makes salumi, but Spam?

:-)

It might not be to Shelly's tastes, but it's within his abilities!



>> Crudo Misto – Tuna, “Gazpacho” and Insalata Bottarga
>> Grilled Baby Octopus with Salt Roasted Potatoes and Celery Pesto
>> Bucatini Con Le Sarde – Fennel, Onion and Pinenuts
>> Swordfish Involtini with Marsala and Capers
>> Housemade Ricotta Fresca
>> Gilcrease Melon Sorbetto with Sicilian Pistachio Granita
>
> To an Italian cook that is heavy... protein of fish or cheese in every
> course except the dolce, and every dish "done up." Veg is presented as a
> garnish. I serve salt roasted tiny potatoes, but as an antipasto on their
> own as they originated, and with fresh goat cheese for a feast meal. I
> wouldn't throw a couple on a plate with some fish. They are exquisite and
> have a unique flavor which is appreciated best alone with some very fresh
> white wine.
>
>> That doesn't look heavy or exaggerated to me. Do you really consider that
>> to> be heavy and exaggerated? I can see where it could be viewed as an
>> "every> dish a star" menu, though, and I don't consider that to be a
>> flaw.
>
> To me it is both, but as an American-born I would think that if one were
> having a once in a lifetime experience for tasting the work of a chef, so
> what? Every dish a star IS exaggerated. We eat like that only at
> weddings, where the law is too much of everything and everyone should go
> home in pain. I have eaten like that at various tasting feasts, but
> Italian cookery per se (note the NYC ref.) it is not.
>
> When the IACP Italy chapter has its annual meetings the restaurant chosen
> usually tries a menu that complicated and the result is you go away
> feeling bad and sleepy and you can't remember anything in particular of
> what you ate.

OK, I agree with your distinction between everyday meals and
special-occasion meals. But we still differ on "heavy" and "light." No
problem.

Bob

"ChattyCathy" > wrote in message
...
> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> about this...
>
> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> country/region of origin?
>
> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
> Cheers
> Chatty Cathy


Do you think you can become a pro golfer from reading books about it?

I think you have to experience some things first hand. If you want to be a
true expert, you have to have the proper ingredients and they are just not
available here (US) in most cases. Some ingredients are not allowed to be
imported to the US so you can never re-create the exact recipe here. Not
knowing what the original is like you can't be sure you are close.

You can get damned good, but living amongst the natives, shopping in their
markets will give you a different perspective.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:39:57 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

> wrote:
>>You're thinking of Rick Bayless and Julia Child? I think more than
>>just knowledge of the cuisine is needed, because you're acting as a
>>bridge between two cuisines/cultures. Master of the introduction and
>>all that stuff. Personality and a good business sense are big
>>factors. It helps to have a working knowledge on the subject, of
>>course, but you don't need to be an expert to succeed. If you don't
>>have the expertise, you can always hire someone who does.
>
> I think we might do well to separate those kinds of bridge figures with the
> gifts of gab and business from the oftentimes quiet experts who aren't trying
> to parley their newfound expertise into a living. I think most people from
> different cultures are thrilled to have Westerners interested in what they eat.
> But, once a self styled expert begins making a living from their endeavors,
> issues of appropriation emerge. In another thread, I expressed my discomfort
> with Rick Bayless opening swanky, high priced Mexican restaurants in place of
> Mexican chefs. If any of you taught someone how to prepare your family's most
> cherished recipes, how would you feel if they turned around and either
> published a cookbook or opened a restaurant without sharing royalties or
> profits with you?
>
> Orlando

i'd be totally ****ed off that he had some ambition and got off his ass to
make something of them. the ****ing nerve!

then i'd devote my life to making off-the-wall posts to newsgroups about
the outrage of it all.

blake

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 19:10:18 GMT, brooklyn1 wrote:

> "Dimitri" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>>> about this...
>>>
>>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>>> country/region of origin?
>>
>> No - not really.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>>> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>> --
>>> Cheers
>>> Chatty Cathy
>>
>> It's just not enough - IMHO the ofactory (smell ) of ethnic plays such an
>> important part, no class or classes can ever cement the taste and smell of
>> street food.
>>
>> I also believe the Street foods amd such an important part and that can
>> seldome be learned.
>>
>>
>
> Agreed. One also needs to be born with the innate ability, same as being a
> natural athelete or having an ear for rmusic... all the piano lessons in the
> world won't help one bit when one has a tin ear. Anyone who admits that
> they had to reach middle age before feeling confident that they could
> diverge from a recipe I'm positive can't cook a lick. One needs to be born
> with the ability and then serve an apprenticeship from the time one could
> walk. Taking cooking lessons as an adult is a total waste, makes as much
> sense for a forty year old to begin ballet lessons... real cooking is indeed
> a ballet. Chefs like Pepin and Yan are naturals and served a formal
> aprenticeship from since they were young children... Julia Child was an
> important TV personality in the culinary entertainment world but she had no
> natural cooking ability and could barely follow a recipe, she was a paint by
> numbers kind of cook... Julia's only claim to culinary fame is that she was
> first... and even that was arranged for her by her influential husband
> because she was bored. I never enjoyed watching Julia Child, watching her
> play in the kitchen was like watching ringers play the Three Stooges.

it's a real tragedy that native geniuses like yourself have been held down
by The Woman.

blake

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:22:29 -0400, Dave Smith wrote:

> ChattyCathy wrote:
>> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>> about this...
>>
>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>> country/region of origin?
>>
>> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> My sister in law's stepdaughter is a bit of a loose cannon, to say the
> least. For years she has been talking about going to Greece and opening
> the ultimate Greek cooking school. She is not Greek. I don't know if
> they would even let her into the country because she is still living in
> a half way house after having spent close to a year in jail for fraud.

according to some posters in this thread, a conviction for fraud would be a
promising start for a chef.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:04:34 -0600, Arri London wrote:

> ChattyCathy wrote:
>>
>> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>> about this...
>>
>> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>> country/region of origin?
>
> Not in the slightest. That's like trying to learn lab-based research
> without ever working in a lab. Need to be 'on site' to get the entire
> story.
>
>>
>> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Not in the slightest. When people emigrate, they typically do not find
> all the ingredients or equipment needed to cook 'native' or 'authentic'
> cuisine properly. Substitutions are made cos there isn't any choice. The
> cuisine gets watered down. Doesn't mean it's 'bad'; just different.

i think your last point is the important one. these 'bridge' characters
help people to be a little more 'authentic,' if that's their interest. and
usually that would result in tastier food.

all the schooling in the world won't make me chinese, but it can help
immensely if i'd like to make good chinese food. let's keep out eye on the
ball here.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:31:58 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

> wrote:
>>The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
>>about this...
>>Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
>>authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
>>living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
>>country/region of origin?
>
> It would be hard to become a truly accomplished master of another culture's
> cuisine without living there, if only because the daily ways in which people
> cook and eat wouldn't always come through in cooking courses, private
> experimentation or cookbooks. There is also the question of different
> ingredients that may not be available outside the country under consideration.
> Still, I think one can learn a lot about different cuisines without living in
> those cultures. I already knew a lot about Indian food before actually going
> there on a research grant in 2000.
>
>>Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
>>a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> I think it would do some but not all of the trick. Who's to say that the person
> teaching is considered the best cook? Even if they're good at specific dishes,
> that may not mean they're great at everything. So, I think comparison is very
> useful. Through comparison, regional variants and individual family touches
> stand out.
>
> Orlando

and who's to say that being a native makes you 'great at everything'? does
it mean you got rhythm?

blake

blake murphy wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:39:57 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

>>
>> I think we might do well to separate those kinds of bridge figures
>> with the gifts of gab and business from the oftentimes quiet experts
>> who aren't trying to parley their newfound expertise into a living. I
>> think most people from different cultures are thrilled to have
>> Westerners interested in what they eat. But, once a self styled
>> expert begins making a living from their endeavors, issues of
>> appropriation emerge. In another thread, I expressed my discomfort
>> with Rick Bayless opening swanky, high priced Mexican restaurants in
>> place of Mexican chefs. If any of you taught someone how to prepare
>> your family's most cherished recipes, how would you feel if they
>> turned around and either published a cookbook or opened a restaurant
>> without sharing royalties or profits with you?
>>
>> Orlando
>
> i'd be totally ****ed off that he had some ambition and got off his
> ass to make something of them. the ****ing nerve!
>
> then i'd devote my life to making off-the-wall posts to newsgroups
> about the outrage of it all.

<snork>

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 11:47:11 +0200, Giusi wrote:

> "Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> *Sometimes* he does "feast" food; e.g., I remember him
>> doing a show about the food on St. Joseph's Day. But in the main he
>> features> typical family food from one specific region of Italy, and I
>> haven't seen> him prepare anything on that show which was too complicated
>> for even a > cooking novice as inept as Sheldon to prepare.
>
> I know his dad makes salumi, but Spam?
>

you sly dog.

your pal,
blake

On Aug 7, 12:14*pm, ChattyCathy > wrote:
> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> about this...
>
> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> country/region of origin?

With French cooking, where there are rules, maybe. But most ethnic
cooking is something that you learn to taste from your mother's milk
onward.

> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?

I have a friend who married a Jain, and spend weeks in the kitchen
with her M- and S-IL's preparing the wedding feast and daily meals.
While she teaches the classes here in the US with her husband, when it
comes to the spicing, she leaves it up to him since even she can tell
her sense of taste differs from the cultural norm.

When her MIL comes to visit, she also watches and helps her in her(my
friend) own kitchen. Her MIL's pinch and shake are still different
from her's no matter how hard she tries to quantify them.

Giusi's comment about the kitchen is something I hadn't thought about,
but makes a lot of sense.

maxine in ri

In article >,
sf > wrote:

>
> I haven't ever eaten at any Mario Batali restaurant as far as I know.
> The closest I've been is walking past his father's place in Seattle -
> after closing hours.
>
> <sigh>
> darn it all

We never manage to be downtown when Salumi is open. Maybe some day I
should round up a few of my coworkers and we can take the Harborview
Party Bus (so named because of the volume of people who get on or off at
Harborview Medical Center) downtown for lunch.

By the way, Mario's sister and brother-in-law now run Salumi, although
Armandino (Papa) is a regular presence.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

In article >,
"Giusi" > wrote:

snips
> Maybe a really dedicated learner could do better than I did, but the less
> kitchen bafìggage they went in with the better the chances, I believe.

Giusi, you bring up a good point. All of us have "kitchen baggage" that
color the way we may see or cook different cuisines. Some have fat- or
lard-phobias. My next door neighbor is not much for fish other than
salmon. Several years ago I was helping her daughter make a recipe as a
Japanese class project. This required making dashi (Japanese broth).
When we opened the package of bonito flakes, they flew all over the
kitchen and settled like snow on the counter and floor. This did not
set well with the mom. I'm not quite as pescophobic as my next door
neighbor, but I can't bring myself to buy some of the dried/fermented
fish products that are used in Southeast Asian dishes, even though I've
undoubtedly eaten said dishes in restaurants many times. I have tried
"blood cube" (exactly what it sounds like) before, but it's not
something I would buy for my version of bun bo Hue (Vietnamese noodle
soup).

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

On Aug 8, 12:22*pm, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:22:29 -0400, Dave Smith wrote:
> > ChattyCathy wrote:
> >> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> >> about this...
>
> >> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> >> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> >> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> >> country/region of origin?
>
> >> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> >> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
>
> >> Any thoughts?
>
> > My sister in law's stepdaughter is a bit of a loose cannon, to say the
> > least. For years she has been talking about going to Greece and opening
> > the ultimate Greek cooking school. She is not Greek. I don't know if
> > they would even let her into the country because she is still living in
> > a half way house after having spent close to a year in jail for fraud.
>
> according to some posters in this thread, a conviction for fraud would be a
> promising start for a chef.
>
> your pal,
> blake

You never read "Kitchen Confidential"? Tony B does his best to break
every law in the book. and then gets to make the big bucks writing
about it.

maxine in ri

"Cindy Fuller" ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" wrote:

the less kitchen baggage they went in with the better the chances, I
believe.
>
My next door neighbor is not much for fish other than
> salmon. Several years ago I was helping her daughter make a recipe as a >
> Japanese class project. This required making dashi (Japanese broth). >
> When we opened the package of bonito flakes, they flew all over the itchen
> and settled like snow on the counter and floor. This did not set well
> with the mom. I'm not quite as pescophobic as my next door > neighbor,
> but I can't bring myself to buy some of the dried/fermented > fish
> products that are used in Southeast Asian dishes, even though I've
> undoubtedly eaten said dishes in restaurants many times. I have tried >
> "blood cube" (exactly what it sounds like) before, but it's not >
> something I would buy for my version of bun bo Hue (Vietnamese noodle >
> soup).

IT doesn't sound so delish to the western ear the way you put it. Blood
cube sounds like a great idea for first aid, though.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Do you think you can become a pro golfer from reading books about it?

Well, no *I* don't - but there are those amongst us who think having
Internet access is all it takes...
>
> I think you have to experience some things first hand. If you want to
> be a true expert, you have to have the proper ingredients and they are
> just not available here (US) in most cases. Some ingredients are not
> allowed to be
> imported to the US so you can never re-create the exact recipe here.
> Not knowing what the original is like you can't be sure you are close.
>
> You can get damned good, but living amongst the natives, shopping in
> their markets will give you a different perspective.

I agree.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Giusi > wrote:

> "Cindy Fuller" ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > I have tried
> > "blood cube" (exactly what it sounds like) before, but it's not
> > something I would buy for my version of bun bo Hue (Vietnamese noodle
> > soup).
>
> IT doesn't sound so delish to the western ear the way you put it. Blood
> cube sounds like a great idea for first aid, though.

Huyet heo (pig's blood cubes) I've had in several dishes a local
Vietnamese place (now closed, unfortunately) used to serve were very
nearly tasteless and had no texture to speak of, either. They seemed
pointless to me. Maybe they had the flavour cooked out of them, though.

Victor

blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:04:34 -0600, Arri London wrote:
>
> > ChattyCathy wrote:
> >>
> >> The Julia thread (and a few other recent threads) got me to thinking
> >> about this...
> >>
> >> Do you think that one can become an acknowledged "expert" at cooking
> >> authentic cuisine(s) from other countries/regions without actually
> >> living and/or studying a particular cuisine in the applicable
> >> country/region of origin?
> >
> > Not in the slightest. That's like trying to learn lab-based research
> > without ever working in a lab. Need to be 'on site' to get the entire
> > story.
> >
> >>
> >> Would taking a course (in your home country) or being taught 'how to' by
> >> a relative/friend who came from that country/region do the trick?
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
> > Not in the slightest. When people emigrate, they typically do not find
> > all the ingredients or equipment needed to cook 'native' or 'authentic'
> > cuisine properly. Substitutions are made cos there isn't any choice. The
> > cuisine gets watered down. Doesn't mean it's 'bad'; just different.
>
> i think your last point is the important one. these 'bridge' characters
> help people to be a little more 'authentic,' if that's their interest. and
> usually that would result in tastier food.
>
> all the schooling in the world won't make me chinese, but it can help
> immensely if i'd like to make good chinese food. let's keep out eye on the
> ball here.
>
> your pal,
> blake


But as with most things, the best schooling would be with the experts.
Second-hand information is better than nothing but not better than first
hand. It's not a question of 'making' someone Chinese but learning the
best Chinese cooking.

George Shirley wrote:

>> My sister in law's stepdaughter is a bit of a loose cannon, to say the
>> least. For years she has been talking about going to Greece and
>> opening the ultimate Greek cooking school. She is not Greek. I don't
>> know if they would even let her into the country because she is still
>> living in a half way house after having spent close to a year in jail
>> for fraud.
>
> She could still qualify to live in France, ran into a lot of frauds in
> France. Mostly trying to sell stuff to tourists.

LOL I ran into one of those walking down the street in Paris. First he
said that he thought we were American, but when I told him we were
Canadian he loved Canadians and had a sister in Montreal. He was in
Paris for business....fashion business, and wanted to give us a gift.
He tried to give me a ugly cheap looking fake suede jacket. Except he
wasn't actually giving it to me. All he needed was some money for gas to
get back to Milan. I said "Nice try" and he yelled "Son of a bitch" at
me. Maybe he would have still liked Canadians if I had given him a
couple hundred dollars for an $20 jacket.