Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.

I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
curing time.

Any ideas? :-)

And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

"Omelet" ha scritto nel messaggio

> Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not >
> tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not >
> find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.

No. it remains.
>
> I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the >
> capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required >
> curing time.

My neighbors all make it every year, and it hangs at first in their ground
floor storage areas, not really like a cellar. It's done in
December/January so it's right cold at first, but it isn't that long before
it can come into the house proper with no special temps. You can really
tell the difference among the various types that are made from different
pigs that eat different foods. Daytime temps here are not that often below
40°F here.

I think I would make guanciale first-- cheaper in case of less wonderful
result and much harder to come by than prosciutto crudo.

Omelet wrote:

> Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
> I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> curing time.
>
> Any ideas? :-)
>

The real thing takes about a year. I would start
with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
time.

> And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?

That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
or something similer.

http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf

You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
out simple and go from there.

--
Reg

On Sep 17, 11:46*am, RegForte > wrote:
> Omelet wrote:
> > Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> > tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> > find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
> > I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. *My Hobart has the
> > capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> > curing time.
>
> > Any ideas? :-)
>
> The real thing takes about a year. I would start
> with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
> time.
>
> > And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>
> That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
> or something similer.
>
> http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>
> You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
> out simple and go from there.
>
> --
> Reg

Thanks for posting that- I may have to try it!

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:11:46 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.

Ruhlman says to get a leg with the skin on. When I did it last year
(or was it year before last?), I bought the pork from a local farmer
who uses a small meat processor with -- err -- idiosyncratic
tendencies. The ham was cut in half and the rind was removed.
Apparently they think that's a good thing.

I packed the piece that looked most ham like in salt and weighted it
with a plate and a 20-pound barbell. I kept it in the refrigerator for
one day for each pound of weight. After that, I rinsed it (wearing
latex gloves), dried it and rubbed a generous layer of lard onto any
part that wasn't already covered with fat. Next I wrapped it in
several layers of cheese cloth and hung it in a wine storage unit --
one of those thermo electric cabinets that keep wines at about 50 F.

I cut into it after six months, and it was pretty good. Maybe a little
too salty, but nobody I fed it to complained. A friend from Italy
(born in Sicily, raised in Como) said I nailed it.

I got the wine cabinet from Overstock.com, BTW. It cost me about $100.
Mine has an LED light that I sometimes turned on so I could admire my
curing ham. But eventually it came to look like evidence of some
horrible crime, so I left the cabinet dark.
>
>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>curing time.

That sounds like it would work.
>
>Any ideas? :-)
>
>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?

No idea. But if you do cure your own prosciutto, I highly recommend
you get pastured pork, not something from a factory farm. The flavor
difference is noticeable.

--

modom

In article >,
"Giusi" > wrote:

> "Omelet" ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not >
> > tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not >
> > find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
> No. it remains.
> >
> > I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the >
> > capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required >
> > curing time.
>
> My neighbors all make it every year, and it hangs at first in their ground
> floor storage areas, not really like a cellar. It's done in
> December/January so it's right cold at first, but it isn't that long before
> it can come into the house proper with no special temps. You can really
> tell the difference among the various types that are made from different
> pigs that eat different foods. Daytime temps here are not that often below
> 40°F here.
>
> I think I would make guanciale first-- cheaper in case of less wonderful
> result and much harder to come by than prosciutto crudo.

Thanks. It's just that here in Texas, I think doing it under
refrigeration would work better then. I'll look for the recipes for
that other stuff.

From what I briefly looked it, looks like it takes a good 9 months to
make a genuine Prosciutto.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
RegForte > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> > Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> > tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> > find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
> >
> > I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> > capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> > curing time.
> >
> > Any ideas? :-)
> >
>
> The real thing takes about a year. I would start
> with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
> time.

That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
perfect.

>
> > And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>
> That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
> or something similer.
>
> http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>
> You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
> out simple and go from there.

Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
what is in there at this point. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:11:46 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> >tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> >find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
> Ruhlman says to get a leg with the skin on. When I did it last year
> (or was it year before last?), I bought the pork from a local farmer
> who uses a small meat processor with -- err -- idiosyncratic
> tendencies. The ham was cut in half and the rind was removed.
> Apparently they think that's a good thing.
>
> I packed the piece that looked most ham like in salt and weighted it
> with a plate and a 20-pound barbell. I kept it in the refrigerator for
> one day for each pound of weight. After that, I rinsed it (wearing
> latex gloves), dried it and rubbed a generous layer of lard onto any
> part that wasn't already covered with fat. Next I wrapped it in
> several layers of cheese cloth and hung it in a wine storage unit --
> one of those thermo electric cabinets that keep wines at about 50 F.
>
> I cut into it after six months, and it was pretty good. Maybe a little
> too salty, but nobody I fed it to complained. A friend from Italy
> (born in Sicily, raised in Como) said I nailed it.
>
> I got the wine cabinet from Overstock.com, BTW. It cost me about $100.
> Mine has an LED light that I sometimes turned on so I could admire my
> curing ham. But eventually it came to look like evidence of some
> horrible crime, so I left the cabinet dark.
> >
> >I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> >capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> >curing time.
>
> That sounds like it would work.

The distance between the bottom shelf and the bottom of the 'frige is a
good 24". It's a 40 cubic foot capacity commercial refrigerator.
It lives on the insulated back porch and has a temperature gauge on the
outside of it so I can monitor the temp.

> >
> >Any ideas? :-)
> >
> >And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>
> No idea. But if you do cure your own prosciutto, I highly recommend
> you get pastured pork, not something from a factory farm. The flavor
> difference is noticeable.

Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
ought to take care of that?
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

Omelet wrote:

> In article >,
> RegForte > wrote:
>
>
>>Omelet wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>>>
>>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>>>curing time.
>>>
>>>Any ideas? :-)
>>>
>>
>>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
>>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
>>time.
>
>
> That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
> treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
> perfect.
>

Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
completely different set of skills and equipment.

Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
one of your biggest challenges.

>
>>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>>
>>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
>>or something similer.
>>
>>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>>
>>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
>>out simple and go from there.
>
>
> Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
> what is in there at this point. :-)

The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
a drying box. It's minimal, however.

One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
It has a lot of important background info that you need
to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
that is probably the best available in print.

<http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-Paul-Bertolli/dp/0609608932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>


--
Reg

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news snip
>
> Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
> I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
> with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
> myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
> ought to take care of that?
> --
> Peace! Om
I wouldn't bet on it. This is from Wikipedia I'd read the whole article,
but "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention makes the following
recommendation: "Curing (salting), drying, smoking, or microwaving meat does
not consistently kill infective worms."[17] However, under controlled
commercial food processing conditions some of these methods are considered
effective by the United States Department of Agriculture.[18]"

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:14:25 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> "modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:
>>
>> No idea. But if you do cure your own prosciutto, I highly recommend
>> you get pastured pork, not something from a factory farm. The flavor
>> difference is noticeable.
>
>Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
>I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
>with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
>myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
>ought to take care of that?

Not feral hog meat, pastured hog meat. There's a difference. Here's a
search enging designed to find farmers, etc. within a specified
distance of your zip code: http://www.eatwellguide.org/i.php?pd=Home
Here's another one: http://www.localharvest.org/

I got my half hog from these fine folks:
http://homepage.mac.com/nbmelson/Personal9.html

They have this to say about their piggies: "Our hogs are pastured on
soil and grass where they can root around, wallow in the mud, and
compliment there grain based diet as they see fit with grass, roots,
bugs, and worms. This is just as swine were intended to be raised, not
confined to concrete."

When pigs eat bugs, the pork tastes better. It really does.
--

modom

In article >,
RegForte > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > RegForte > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Omelet wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> >>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> >>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
> >>>
> >>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> >>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> >>>curing time.
> >>>
> >>>Any ideas? :-)
> >>>
> >>
> >>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
> >>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
> >>time.
> >
> >
> > That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
> > treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
> > perfect.
> >
>
> Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
> completely different set of skills and equipment.
>
> Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
> one of your biggest challenges.
>
> >
> >>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
> >>
> >>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
> >>or something similer.
> >>
> >>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
> >>
> >>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
> >>out simple and go from there.
> >
> >
> > Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure all
> > what is in there at this point. :-)
>
> The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
> a drying box. It's minimal, however.
>
> One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
> It has a lot of important background info that you need
> to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
> that is probably the best available in print.
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-P...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
> UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>

Thanks Reg. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article > ,
"Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

> "Omelet" > wrote in message
> news > snip
> >
> > Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
> > I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
> > with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
> > myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
> > ought to take care of that?
> > --
> > Peace! Om
> I wouldn't bet on it. This is from Wikipedia I'd read the whole article,
> but "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention makes the following
> recommendation: "Curing (salting), drying, smoking, or microwaving meat does
> not consistently kill infective worms."[17] However, under controlled
> commercial food processing conditions some of these methods are considered
> effective by the United States Department of Agriculture.[18]"

In that case, pre-freezing for 30 days prior would be the plan...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:14:25 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > "modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:
> >>
> >> No idea. But if you do cure your own prosciutto, I highly recommend
> >> you get pastured pork, not something from a factory farm. The flavor
> >> difference is noticeable.
> >
> >Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
> >I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
> >with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
> >myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
> >ought to take care of that?
>
> Not feral hog meat, pastured hog meat. There's a difference. Here's a
> search enging designed to find farmers, etc. within a specified
> distance of your zip code: http://www.eatwellguide.org/i.php?pd=Home
> Here's another one: http://www.localharvest.org/
>
> I got my half hog from these fine folks:
> http://homepage.mac.com/nbmelson/Personal9.html
>
> They have this to say about their piggies: "Our hogs are pastured on
> soil and grass where they can root around, wallow in the mud, and
> compliment there grain based diet as they see fit with grass, roots,
> bugs, and worms. This is just as swine were intended to be raised, not
> confined to concrete."
>
> When pigs eat bugs, the pork tastes better. It really does.

But by allowing them access to wild stuff, you've just drastically
increased the chances of parasitic infection.

Some insects, snails, etc. are the hosts for the infective stages of
parasites.

Did you know that cats get tapeworms from eating fleas?
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

Omelet wrote:


> I monitor my freezers. The one inside runs right at -10 most of the
> time. The big chest freezer averages -20.

Yet another reason to have a chest freezer. They get colder,
which is exactly what you want for this kind of application.
Deep freezing fish to kill parasites, too.

--
Reg

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
> tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
> find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
> I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
> capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
> curing time.
>
> Any ideas? :-)
>
> And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?

I don't what you have to deal with in terms of climate where you live. I
once thought of curing ham in my basement until I tried doing salame.
Despite trying to increase humidity, I get too much case hardening
there. I can age small batches in my refrigerator by adding small
containers of water in the reefer bins but not the basement. My best
result was with Spanish style chorizo. 70% seems to be widely
recommended for aging. You better check the RH in your reefer.

D.M.

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:44:56 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> "modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:14:25 -0500, Omelet >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > "modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> No idea. But if you do cure your own prosciutto, I highly recommend
>> >> you get pastured pork, not something from a factory farm. The flavor
>> >> difference is noticeable.
>> >
>> >Thanks. I think I can get whole, skin on pork at the asian market, but
>> >I'd most likely check locally first. I'm not sure I'd want to try this
>> >with feral hogs even tho' I should be able to "harvest" one of those
>> >myself. I worry about wild pork and parasites, but that long cure time
>> >ought to take care of that?
>>
>> Not feral hog meat, pastured hog meat. There's a difference. Here's a
>> search enging designed to find farmers, etc. within a specified
>> distance of your zip code: http://www.eatwellguide.org/i.php?pd=Home
>> Here's another one: http://www.localharvest.org/
>>
>> I got my half hog from these fine folks:
>> http://homepage.mac.com/nbmelson/Personal9.html
>>
>> They have this to say about their piggies: "Our hogs are pastured on
>> soil and grass where they can root around, wallow in the mud, and
>> compliment there grain based diet as they see fit with grass, roots,
>> bugs, and worms. This is just as swine were intended to be raised, not
>> confined to concrete."
>>
>> When pigs eat bugs, the pork tastes better. It really does.
>
>But by allowing them access to wild stuff, you've just drastically
>increased the chances of parasitic infection.
>
>Some insects, snails, etc. are the hosts for the infective stages of
>parasites.
>
>Did you know that cats get tapeworms from eating fleas?

Yes. But tapeworms don't get into muscle tissue. If trichinosis is
your concern, I understand. There are ways to handle that using
freezing. So long at so cold, etc.

Also I know and respect these farmers. I know they know what they're
doing. Nathan is ABD on a PhD in ag science. His wife is a *** laude
ag science graduate.

I'm just talking about taste. Your prosciutto will surely be good
anyway you do it. But it'll be better with pastured pork.
Incidentally, Michael Ruhlman agrees with this claim. See his book
"Charcuterie" for details.

Did you know that factory hog farmers often cut the tails off their
swine so the others in the pen don't chew on them out of stress?
--

modom

In article >,
RegForte > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
>
> > I monitor my freezers. The one inside runs right at -10 most of the
> > time. The big chest freezer averages -20.
>
> Yet another reason to have a chest freezer. They get colder,
> which is exactly what you want for this kind of application.
> Deep freezing fish to kill parasites, too.

Always a good thing... :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
Don Martinich > wrote:

> I don't what you have to deal with in terms of climate where you live. I
> once thought of curing ham in my basement until I tried doing salame.
> Despite trying to increase humidity, I get too much case hardening
> there. I can age small batches in my refrigerator by adding small
> containers of water in the reefer bins but not the basement. My best
> result was with Spanish style chorizo. 70% seems to be widely
> recommended for aging. You better check the RH in your reefer.
>
> D.M.

Texas tends to be hot and humid, and I have no basement.
I know that things will dry out nicely tho' in the Hobart...

I let the wet cured pork loin for Canadian bacon dry off over a drip
tray for 3 days prior to smoking. It's pretty soggy coming out of the
wet cure.

The beef heart, being denser, did not have that problem. It went
straight into the smoker out of the cure/brine.

I'm thinking tho' that whole pork shoulders are pretty cheap. I want to
try brining/curing one of those prior to smoking. I think it'd make a
nice ham.

But, I need to get off my butt and make more sausage as I have the meat
for it in the freezer, and smoked sausage is the gods...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
Christine Dabney > wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:30:59 -0700, Don Martinich >
> wrote:
>
>
> >I don't what you have to deal with in terms of climate where you live. I
> >once thought of curing ham in my basement until I tried doing salame.
> >Despite trying to increase humidity, I get too much case hardening
> >there. I can age small batches in my refrigerator by adding small
> >containers of water in the reefer bins but not the basement. My best
> >result was with Spanish style chorizo. 70% seems to be widely
> >recommended for aging. You better check the RH in your reefer.
> >
> >D.M.
>
> I have heard that the wine refridgerators do well for this sort of
> thing.... I know of a lot of people doing charcuterie now, who go
> this route..
>
> Christine

I don't have the space for another appliance. :-(
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:

> >Did you know that cats get tapeworms from eating fleas?
>
> Yes. But tapeworms don't get into muscle tissue.

I know.

> If trichinosis is
> your concern, I understand. There are ways to handle that using
> freezing. So long at so cold, etc.

Yes, so I've seen posted here on curing meats.
I love this list. <g>

While Trichinosis is the main concern, there are also other worms that
encysts in muscle tissue. Like Reg pointed out, fish parasites can also
be a concern. I think liver flukes are one of those? Hence the dangers
of using fresh water fish for Sashimi.

>
> Also I know and respect these farmers. I know they know what they're
> doing. Nathan is ABD on a PhD in ag science. His wife is a *** laude
> ag science graduate.
>
> I'm just talking about taste. Your prosciutto will surely be good
> anyway you do it. But it'll be better with pastured pork.
> Incidentally, Michael Ruhlman agrees with this claim. See his book
> "Charcuterie" for details.

And if it's frozen for 3 or 4 weeks prior to using (I'm currently
finally in the habit of dating ALL meat that hits the freezer), that
would eliminate the issue.

I still need to clean the freezer out again and discard anything over 3
years old. I want to get a large dry erase board and actually write
down an inventory of what is in there along with it's freezing dates so
I can meal plan better and stop wasting food! I know it happens to us
all...

I'm thinking of looking at some home made dog and cat food recipes and
using the older meats for that, maybe pressure cooking them after
removing any obvious freezer burn so that that stuff won't go to waste.

>
> Did you know that factory hog farmers often cut the tails off their
> swine so the others in the pen don't chew on them out of stress?
> --
>
> modom

Wouldn't surprise me.
Sheep have their tails cut off as lambs too to prevent feces buildup
around the rump and having fly eggs laid on them...
When I was in High School ag class/FFA, we used to help our prof'
de-tail and castrate his lambs...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news snip
>
> I still need to clean the freezer out again and discard anything over 3
> years old. I want to get a large dry erase board and actually write
> down an inventory of what is in there along with it's freezing dates so
> I can meal plan better and stop wasting food! I know it happens to us
> all...
>
> I'm thinking of looking at some home made dog and cat food recipes and
> using the older meats for that, maybe pressure cooking them after
> removing any obvious freezer burn so that that stuff won't go to waste.
>
snip> --
> Peace! Om
>
Gosh, that dry erase board sounds like an excellent idea. My deep freeze is
extremely old, but we keep it because it was build with 2 rails to support 4
wire baskets on each level and a big space left on the bottom. Even with me
putting chicken in one basket, beef in another, I lose track of what is
there. Your board idea may work. Updating the board is simply a matter of
erasing. Cool.

I find pork to be a total waste if it freezer burns. For me, pork is a
short term storage item unless I have over-wrapped in foil. Pork picks up
funky flavors from the freezer cabinet so easily. Beef may still be usable
to make soup stock or soup meat. You dog and cat food recipes may be a good
idea. I'd definitely use the pressure cooker.
Janet

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:11:46 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>
>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>curing time.
>
>Any ideas? :-)
>
>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?

From Charcuterie by Ruhlman & Polcyn -

"The dry-cured ham elicits a reverence perhaps unmatched by any other
single charcuterie item. By dry-cured ham, we mean the whole back leg
of a mature hog packed in salt for weeks and hung to dry for many
months or even years."

"The general method for any dry-cured ham is standard. The hams are
packed in salt and sometimes stacked on top of each other, their
weight pressing water out, and typically cured for about a day for
every pound of weight."

"The quality of dry-cured ham may be most reliant on the quality and
diet of the hog. You can dry-cure any fresh ham it's not difficult,
but if the hog is from an American commercial grower, the ham is not
going to taste anywhere near as fine as it would if it were from a hog
raised on grass and acorns and allowed to grow big and fat (the
Iberian hogs can grow to four hundred pounds, while American factory
hogs average about two hundred and fifty pounds at slaughter)."

What counts most is the qualtiy of the ham. If you don't have access
to top quality "free range" acorn fed pork, why bother?

If you're relayy interested in curing meats, I suggest you check out
the book.

- Mark

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:35:54 -0400, Mark A.Meggs
> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:11:46 -0500, Omelet >
>wrote:
>
>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>>
>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>>curing time.
>>
>>Any ideas? :-)
>>
>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>
>From Charcuterie by Ruhlman & Polcyn -
>
>"The dry-cured ham elicits a reverence perhaps unmatched by any other
>single charcuterie item. By dry-cured ham, we mean the whole back leg
>of a mature hog packed in salt for weeks and hung to dry for many
>months or even years."
>
>"The general method for any dry-cured ham is standard. The hams are
>packed in salt and sometimes stacked on top of each other, their
>weight pressing water out, and typically cured for about a day for
>every pound of weight."
>
>"The quality of dry-cured ham may be most reliant on the quality and
>diet of the hog. You can dry-cure any fresh ham it's not difficult,
>but if the hog is from an American commercial grower, the ham is not
>going to taste anywhere near as fine as it would if it were from a hog
>raised on grass and acorns and allowed to grow big and fat (the
>Iberian hogs can grow to four hundred pounds, while American factory
>hogs average about two hundred and fifty pounds at slaughter)."
>
>What counts most is the qualtiy of the ham. If you don't have access
>to top quality "free range" acorn fed pork, why bother?
>
>If you're relayy interested in curing meats, I suggest you check out
>the book.
>
>- Mark

Forgot to say - Ruhlman & Polcyn recommend refrigeration for the
salt-cure, then 60 degrees at 60-70 percent humidity for drying.

- Mark

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:40:22 -0400, Mark A.Meggs
> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:35:54 -0400, Mark A.Meggs
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:11:46 -0500, Omelet >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've not
>>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>>>
>>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has the
>>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>>>curing time.
>>>
>>>Any ideas? :-)
>>>
>>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>>
>>From Charcuterie by Ruhlman & Polcyn -
>>
>>"The dry-cured ham elicits a reverence perhaps unmatched by any other
>>single charcuterie item. By dry-cured ham, we mean the whole back leg
>>of a mature hog packed in salt for weeks and hung to dry for many
>>months or even years."
>>
>>"The general method for any dry-cured ham is standard. The hams are
>>packed in salt and sometimes stacked on top of each other, their
>>weight pressing water out, and typically cured for about a day for
>>every pound of weight."
>>
>>"The quality of dry-cured ham may be most reliant on the quality and
>>diet of the hog. You can dry-cure any fresh ham it's not difficult,
>>but if the hog is from an American commercial grower, the ham is not
>>going to taste anywhere near as fine as it would if it were from a hog
>>raised on grass and acorns and allowed to grow big and fat (the
>>Iberian hogs can grow to four hundred pounds, while American factory
>>hogs average about two hundred and fifty pounds at slaughter)."
>>
>>What counts most is the qualtiy of the ham. If you don't have access
>>to top quality "free range" acorn fed pork, why bother?
>>
>>If you're relayy interested in curing meats, I suggest you check out
>>the book.
>>
>>- Mark
>
>Forgot to say - Ruhlman & Polcyn recommend refrigeration for the
>salt-cure, then 60 degrees at 60-70 percent humidity for drying.
>
>- Mark

Thanks for typing that up, Mark. The quality of the uncured meat will
affect the cured product. Pigs taste better when they eat stuff other
than Purina Hog Chow and antibiotics and growth hormones. I know this
because I've tasted pastured pork.

When I cured a ham, I used a temperature-controlled wine storage unit,
but some weeks into the process I noticed the condensation tray at the
back of the thing was pretty full. If the meat dries too fast, it'll
get a hard skin that will prevent the interior from adequately drying
and curing. Rot can set in under those conditions. So I set a bowl of
water in with the ham to raise the humidity. I changed the water (and
the bowl) fairly regularly as the weeks progressed.

I probably didn't cure my ham long enough -- just six months. But it
did taste very good when it was done.
--

modom

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> RegForte > wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > RegForte > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Omelet wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Googled for some recipes, looks like a dry curing process that I've
>> >>>not
>> >>>tried yet. I'm sure I could get a fresh (uncured) ham but I could not
>> >>>find whether or not the rind gets removed before curing.
>> >>>
>> >>>I'm also wondering if this can be done at 40 degrees. My Hobart has
>> >>>the
>> >>>capacity if I were to "hang" it from the bottom shelf for the required
>> >>>curing time.
>> >>>
>> >>>Any ideas? :-)
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>The real thing takes about a year. I would start
>> >>with a much simpler recipe that has a shorter curing
>> >>time.
>> >
>> >
>> > That is why I did Canadian Bacon. It's also smoked and it worked a
>> > treat! The second batch that I cured for 5 days instead of 3 came out
>> > perfect.
>> >
>>
>> Canadian bacon is wet cured. Dry cured products require a
>> completely different set of skills and equipment.
>>
>> Also, 40 F is too cold for a drying environment. That will be
>> one of your biggest challenges.
>>
>> >
>> >>>And could a Pork Shoulder roast (butt) be used?
>> >>
>> >>That would be cottage ham, coppa, tec. You should start with that
>> >>or something similer.
>> >>
>> >>http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/coppa.pdf
>> >>
>> >>You might want to look at the other recipes on that site also. Start
>> >>out simple and go from there.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ah, thanks! I also have the Kutas book to review yet. I'm not sure
>> > all
>> > what is in there at this point. :-)
>>
>> The kutas box has a few good pointers about how to setup
>> a drying box. It's minimal, however.
>>
>> One of the best books on the subject is Cooking By Hand.
>> It has a lot of important background info that you need
>> to dry cure, plus there's a full blown prosciutto recipe
>> that is probably the best available in print.
>>
>> <http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Hand-P...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
>> UTF8&s=books&qid=1253214996&sr=8-1>
>
> Thanks Reg. :-)
> --
> Peace! Om
>
I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.

Good Luck, Let us know what you do.

Ed

"modom (palindrome guy)" ha scritto nel messaggio,
> I packed the piece that looked most ham like in salt and weighted it> with
> a plate and a 20-pound barbell. I kept it in the refrigerator for> one day
> for each pound of weight. After that, I rinsed it (wearing> latex gloves),
> dried it and rubbed a generous layer of lard onto any> part that wasn't
> already covered with fat. Next I wrapped it in> several layers of cheese
> cloth and hung it in a wine storage unit --
> one of those thermo electric cabinets that keep wines at about 50 F.
>
> modom

Here the final rub is mostly crushed black peppercorns, modom. They sell
huge bags of them in the supermarket at the correct time of year. I've
never asked what else there is, but this I can see.

Theron wrote:

> I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
> in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
> like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
> nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
> only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.
>
> Good Luck, Let us know what you do.


The nitrate/nitrite issue isn't a big deal. If you don't want to use any,
just leave it out. There's no recipe conversion necessary. Though none
of the hype and scare stories about nitrates have any real scientific
basis.

The only issue that has even a hint of validity is nitrosomine formation
caused by high heat cooking.

So. Eat your prosciutto raw, instead of using the age old, traditional,
deep fried approach.

--
Reg

RegForte wrote:
>
> The nitrate/nitrite issue isn't a big deal. If you don't want to use any,
> just leave it out. There's no recipe conversion necessary. Though none
> of the hype and scare stories about nitrates have any real scientific
> basis.

That's not at all true. You don't know squat
about what you're talking about.

Here's a clinical study on the relation between consumption
of cured meats and pediatric brain cancer:

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1996 Aug;5(8):599-605.
Maternal consumption of cured meats and vitamins
in relation to pediatric brain tumors.
Preston-Martin S, Pogoda JM, Mueller BA, Holly EA,
Lijinsky W, Davis RL.
Department of Preventive Medicine, University of
Southern California/Norris Comprehensive
Cancer Center, Los Angeles 90033-0800, USA.

Brain tumors are the leading cause of death from
childhood cancer, yet the causes of most of
these tumors remain obscure. Few chemicals are
effective in causing brain tumors experimentally
after systemic administration of low doses; a
notable exception is one group of N-nitroso
compounds, the nitrosamides (in particular the
nitrosoureas). Feeding pregnant animals
nitrosamide precursors (e.g., sodium nitrite and
an alkylamide such as ethylurea) causes a high
incidence of nervous system tumors in offspring.
This population-based epidemiological study
was designed to test the hypothesis that maternal
consumption during pregnancy of meats cured
with sodium nitrite increases the risk of brain
tumors among offspring. The intake of vitamins C
and E blocks endogenous formation of nitroso
compounds and was expected to be protective.
Mothers of 540 children under age 20 with a
primary brain tumor diagnosed during 1984-1991
and 801 control children in the same 19 counties
on the U.S. West Coast were interviewed. Risk
increased with increasing frequency of eating
processed meats [odds ratio (OR) = 2.1 for eating
at least twice a day compared to not eating; 95%
confidence interval (CI) = 1.3-3.2; P = 0.003).
Risk also increased with increasing average daily
grams of cured meats or mg of nitrite from
cured meats (P for each <0.005) but not with
nitrate from vegetables. Daily use of prenatal
vitamins throughout the pregnancy decreased risk
(OR = 0.54; CI = 0.39-0.75). Risk among
mothers who consumed above the median level of
nitrite from cured meat was greater if vitamins
were not taken (OR = 2.4; CI = 1.4-3.6) than if
they were (OR = 1.3). These effects were
evident for each of three major histological
types and across social classes, age groups, and
geographic areas. This largest study to date of
maternal diet and childhood brain tumors suggests
that exposure during gestation to endogenously
formed nitroso compounds may be associated
with tumor occurrence. Laboratory exploration is
needed to: (a) define dietary sources of
exposure to alkylamides; (b) investigate the
reactivity of nitrite in high concentration such
as around bits of cured meats in the stomach
after ingestion compared to nitrite in dilute
solution; and (c) confirm that simultaneous
ingestion of alkylamides and cured meats leads
to the endogenous formation of nitrosamides.

Here's the abstract from a review of the
scientific basis of the risk.

Cancer Causes Control. 2005 Aug;16(6):619-35.
A review: dietary and endogenously formed N-nitroso
compounds and risk of childhood brain tumors.
Dietrich M, Block G, Pogoda JM, Buffler P,
Hecht S, Preston-Martin S.
School of Public Health, University of
California-Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720-7360, USA.

Maternal dietary exposure to N-nitroso compounds
(NOC) or to their precursors during
pregnancy has been associated with risk of
childhood brain tumors. Cured meat is one source of
exposure to dietary NOC and their precursors.
Most epidemiological studies that have examined
the role of maternal consumption of cured meats
during pregnancy have found a significant
positive association between maternal intake
of cured meat and the risk of childhood brain tumor
(CBT). NOC consist of two main groups,
N-nitrosamines and N-nitrosamides. The
carcinogenicity profiles of NOC suggest that
N-nitrosamides rather than N-nitrosamines are the
compounds that may be associated with CBT
and that they should be investigated more closely
in epidemiological studies. We present a review
of the chemical and carcinogenic properties of
NOC in connection with the findings of case-control
studies. This approach may be helpful in
determining the essential information that
must be collected in future epidemiological studies on
CBT.

> The only issue that has even a hint of validity is nitrosomine formation
> caused by high heat cooking.

Years ago, it was thought that high-heat cooking
is necessary to cause formation of nitrosamines,
however it is now known that nitrosamines and other
N-nitroso compounds will form in the intestines
from eating their precursors.

Here's a clinical study which showed that:

Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(1):70-7.
Effect of vegetables, tea, and soy on endogenous
N-nitrosation, fecal ammonia, and fecal water
genotoxicity during a high red meat diet in
humans.
Hughes R, Pollock JR, Bingham S.
Dunn Human Nutrition Unit, Medical Research Council,
Cambridge CB2 2XY, UK.

Red meat increases colonic N-nitrosation, and
this may explain the positive epidemiological
relationship between red meat intake and colorectal
cancer risk. Vegetables, tea, and soy have
been shown to block N-nitroso compound (NOC)
formation and are associated with protection
against colorectal cancer. To determine whether
these supplements affect fecal NOC excretion
during consumption of a high red meat (420 g/day)
diet, 11 male volunteers were studied over a
randomized series of 15-day dietary periods. Seven
of these subjects completed a further dietary
period to test the effects of soy (100 g/day).
Soy significantly suppressed fecal apparent total
NOC (ATNC) concentration (P = 0.02), but
supplements of vegetables (400 g/day as 134 g
broccoli, 134 g brussels sprouts, and 134 g petits
pois) and tea extract (3 g/day) did not affect
mean levels of fecal ATNC, nitrogen and ammonia
excretion, and fecal water genotoxicity.
However, fecal weight was increased (P < 0.001)
and associated with reduced transit time (r =
0.594, P < 0.0001), so that contact between ATNC,
nitrite, and ammonia and the large bowel
mucosa would have been reduced. Longer transit
times were associated with elevated fecal
ATNC concentrations (r = 0.42, P = 0.002). Fecal
nitrite was significantly suppressed during the
tea supplement compared with the meat-only
(P = 0.0028) and meat + vegetables diets (P =
0.005 for microgram NO2/g).

> So. Eat your prosciutto raw, instead of using the age old, traditional,
> deep fried approach.

Eat all you want, as long as it isn't cured
with nitrates or nitrites. The risk is present
whether you cook it or not.

In article > ,
"Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

> "Omelet" > wrote in message
> news > snip
> >
> > I still need to clean the freezer out again and discard anything over 3
> > years old. I want to get a large dry erase board and actually write
> > down an inventory of what is in there along with it's freezing dates so
> > I can meal plan better and stop wasting food! I know it happens to us
> > all...
> >
> > I'm thinking of looking at some home made dog and cat food recipes and
> > using the older meats for that, maybe pressure cooking them after
> > removing any obvious freezer burn so that that stuff won't go to waste.
> >
> snip> --
> > Peace! Om
> >
> Gosh, that dry erase board sounds like an excellent idea. My deep freeze is
> extremely old, but we keep it because it was build with 2 rails to support 4
> wire baskets on each level and a big space left on the bottom. Even with me
> putting chicken in one basket, beef in another, I lose track of what is
> there. Your board idea may work. Updating the board is simply a matter of
> erasing. Cool.

Thanks. :-) Now I just have to DO it! <lol>
Our freezer is also very old. We keep it because it still WORKS.
I've seen too many stories of newer freezers only lasting about 5 years
or so.

>
> I find pork to be a total waste if it freezer burns. For me, pork is a
> short term storage item unless I have over-wrapped in foil. Pork picks up
> funky flavors from the freezer cabinet so easily. Beef may still be usable
> to make soup stock or soup meat. You dog and cat food recipes may be a good
> idea. I'd definitely use the pressure cooker.
> Janet

Oh yes! There would be no other way. Vionate is a good product for the
addition of vitamins. I'd most likely use it mostly for the dogs tho',
Cat nutrition is more difficult with their need for Taurine. Of course
tho', they mostly live on kibbles anyway (available 24/7) and the canned
food is just a small daily treat.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
Mark A.Meggs > wrote:

> From Charcuterie by Ruhlman & Polcyn -
>
<snipped>
>
> If you're relayy interested in curing meats, I suggest you check out
> the book.
>
> - Mark

Thanks. ;-) I still have Kutas to wade thru and so far, the Canadian
bacon has been enjoyable and easy, and has gotten rave reviews from my
friends and relatives. Now they just wish I'm make and share more. <lol>
I just scored more cheap pork loin this morning so will start that
tomorrow.

Me? I'm even more enthusiastic about home made smoked sausage. I do
dearly love sausage and with home made, I can control the salt and fat
content better...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

In article >,
"Theron" > wrote:

> I was about to mention the same book, Bertolli's "Cooking by Hand". It was
> in our local library, and may be in yours. I haven't ever tried anything
> like this. If I did, I'd make sure I'd done my research about nitrites and
> nitrates, particularly PPM and the risk of cancer.. Proscuitto Parma uses
> only salt. Paul Bertolli cures with instacure.
>
> Good Luck, Let us know what you do.
>
> Ed

Oh gods yes! I'm well aware of the importance of that which is why (as
Squertz has pointed out more than once to me), it's safer to use
professionally prepared curing salts. I've used salt petre to date only
because I felt safer with it and it's being used in only very minute
(recommended) quantities and is having the desired effect. I've gotten
good color preservation.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

Omelet wrote:
>
> In article > ,
> "Janet Bostwick" > wrote:
>
> > Gosh, that dry erase board sounds like an excellent idea. My deep freeze is
> > extremely old, but we keep it because it was build with 2 rails to support 4
> > wire baskets on each level and a big space left on the bottom. Even with me
> > putting chicken in one basket, beef in another, I lose track of what is
> > there. Your board idea may work. Updating the board is simply a matter of
> > erasing. Cool.
>
> Thanks. :-) Now I just have to DO it! <lol>
> Our freezer is also very old. We keep it because it still WORKS.
> I've seen too many stories of newer freezers only lasting about 5 years
> or so.

Maybe you don't need a dry erase board.
If the freezer is white, you might be able
to write on it with a dry erase marker.

In article >,
Mark Thorson > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> >
> > In article > ,
> > "Janet Bostwick" > wrote:
> >
> > > Gosh, that dry erase board sounds like an excellent idea. My deep freeze
> > > is
> > > extremely old, but we keep it because it was build with 2 rails to
> > > support 4
> > > wire baskets on each level and a big space left on the bottom. Even with
> > > me
> > > putting chicken in one basket, beef in another, I lose track of what is
> > > there. Your board idea may work. Updating the board is simply a matter
> > > of
> > > erasing. Cool.
> >
> > Thanks. :-) Now I just have to DO it! <lol>
> > Our freezer is also very old. We keep it because it still WORKS.
> > I've seen too many stories of newer freezers only lasting about 5 years
> > or so.
>
> Maybe you don't need a dry erase board.
> If the freezer is white, you might be able
> to write on it with a dry erase marker.

Nah. It's a chest freezer. That'd be hard on my back.

Dry erase boards are cheap.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe: