Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.

His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and vegetables
to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables already in the
bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous meal.

Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
suffered from food poisoning.

But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or less
rotating I guess that is)?

"john royce" > wrote in message
...
> Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
> large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>
> His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and
> vegetables to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables
> already in the bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous
> meal.
>
> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He
> never suffered from food poisoning.
>
> But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
> regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or less
> rotating I guess that is)?

Ever hear of a stock pot?

Dimitri

On Oct 19, 6:05*am, "Dimitri" > wrote:
> "john royce" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
> > large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>
> > His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; *adding meat and
> > vegetables to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables
> > already in the bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous
> > meal.
>
> > Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He
> > never suffered from food poisoning.
>
> > But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
> > regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or less
> > rotating I guess that is)?
>
> Ever hear of a stock pot?

Ever hear of a wood stove? There was usually a fire in the firebox
throughout the waking hours, with the fire carefully banked at night.
Combined with the huge thermal mass of the old cast-iron stoves, the
chance of the stockpot's temp dropping into the danger zone sounds
much less than a pot heated only a few hours a day.

john royce wrote:
>
> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
> suffered from food poisoning.

I remember reading that one of the historical artifacts
destroyed during the Cultural Revolution was stock pot
at a famous restaurant that had been kept going for
centuries. Though I assume that was heated all the time.

I wish I could find the details. A Google search gets
lost in spam.

"john royce" > wrote in message
...
> Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
> large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>
> His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and
> vegetables to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables
> already in the bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous
> meal.
>
> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He
> never suffered from food poisoning.
>
> But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
> regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or less
> rotating I guess that is)?

That's called pottage : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage

Perpetual Hobo Stew?

Sounds weird to me, but as long as the items are kept out of the temperature danger zone of 40-140F (6-60c), it will inhibit bacterial growth, which is what makes you sick.

I'd be concerned if he left it out on the counter all night.

There used to be vast stock pots in many restaurants,
which were always on simmer. There was also a valve at
the bottom for drawing off broth. It was called, I think,
a marmite. True, these things went for long periods with
scraps being added to the top, while the broth was drawn
from the bottom. This was the source of great sauces
and the broth itself was a meal.

Nowadays, the term marmite (not the spread) is used to
describe a much smaller stockpot placed at the buffet
table for serving soup by dipper. Typical sizes run
from 4-10 liter, and they are generally heated with
a chafing dish candle, or electrically.

HTH

Alex

Kajikit wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:12:06 +0100, "john royce"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
>>large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>>
>>His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and vegetables
>>to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables already in the
>>bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous meal.
>>
>>Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
>>suffered from food poisoning.
>>
>>But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
>>regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or less
>>rotating I guess that is)?
>>
>
> It sounds like a pretty boring diet, but safe because the food was
> always being recooked... that's pretty much what they used to do in
> the olden days when they'd keep a stewpot on the heart contiuously and
> just put whatever they had in it.

I have read of chefs that keep a stock pot going for months and months,
its always at a low simmer and occasionally raised to a full boil before
being taken back down to a simmer.

I do not have one of those stoves like an Aga that is 'always on' so my
attempts to recreate one of these long simmering stock pots has not
worked out, but i have read they can develop what is called a "signature
flavor' for the chef producing it. A case of the sum of the whole
being greater than its parts.

--

Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://fredeeky.typepad.com/fredeeky.../sf_anthem.mp3

john royce > wrote:

> Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
> large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>
> His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and vegetables
> to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables already in the
> bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous meal.
>
> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
> suffered from food poisoning.

This is a revival of the eternal kettle, not at all a bad idea. Here is
Alexandre Dumas on boiled meat, from his Dictionary of Cuisine.

Boiled meat. President Hénault, dining at the table with Mme du
Deffand, said that a chicken had been boiled so long, that it was like a
honeycomb with nothing left but the wax, and madame agreed with him.
Boiled meat is just cooked meat without its juice, said Mme de Créqui.
There was an answer to give these illustrious gourmands:
"Have you ever eaten beef or chicken out of the eternal kettle?"
"No!"
"Well, taste it, and you will change your opinion."
"What is an eternal kettle?"
The eternal kettle is or, rather, was, since this illustrious
gastronomic institution has long ceased to function, a receptacle tat
never left the fire, day or night. A chicken was put into it as a
chicken was withdrawn, a piece of beef as a piece taken out, and a glass
of water whenever a cup of broth was removed. Every kind of meat that
cooked in this bouillon gained rather than lost in flavour, for it
inherited the juices that had been left in it by all the meat that
preceded it, and in turn bequeathed some of its own. It was not
necessary to leave meat in the kettle any longer tan it required to
cook. It lost none of its qualities.
Now that the eternal kettle is no more, we must content ourselves
with a big piece of boiled beef.
Use a 12 to 15 pound rump, have it boned, and tie it properly for
serving. Boil it in the bouillon you have made the day before, into
which you will put all the leftover meats from the roasts of the
preceding day - chicken, turkey, rabbit, etc. Serve garnished à la
flamande.


And here is a somewhat different description from _Eating in America: a
History_ by Waverley Root & Richard de Rochemont.

Wood or coal stoves were often kept burning continuously - especially on
farms with woodlots, from which enough odd chunks of wood could usually
be gleaned to keep the fire burning continuously with no cash outlay at
all. This practice stopped abruptly with the advent of gas and
electricity; nobody could afford to keep either of them burning all the
time without ever shutting them off. The change banished one dish from
the menu, in the city at least. In the days of continuously burning
stove, a catch-all kettle frequently simmered permanently on the back of
the range, its contents changing constantly as they were drawn upon for
one meal or replenished in view of another. The bubbling kettle could
be fed with felicity by any good cook mindful of the dosage of the
various vegetables or pieces of meat which she consigned to it whenever
she had extra food. There was always an emergency repast on the stove,
in the form of usually rich stew, which often provided all anyone
wanted for supper. It could almost be described as a free meal, since
it was composed chiefly of leftovers which when gas and electricity
came in would go only too often straight into the garbage can.

Victor

"spamtrap1888" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 19, 6:05 am, "Dimitri" > wrote:
> "john royce" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Years ago I went to a students flat and there was a chap there who had a
> > large crock pot that he kept permently in the oven.
>
> > His evening meal was to heat the whole thing up; adding meat and
> > vegetables to the top. Then to eat from the existing meat and vegetables
> > already in the bottom of the pot which had been cooked for the previous
> > meal.
>
> > Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He
> > never suffered from food poisoning.
>
> > But was there any chance of food poisoning happening seeing as he was
> > regularly rotating the food in the pot at oven temperatures (more or
> > less
> > rotating I guess that is)?
>
> Ever hear of a stock pot?

Ever hear of a wood stove? There was usually a fire in the firebox
throughout the waking hours, with the fire carefully banked at night.
Combined with the huge thermal mass of the old cast-iron stoves, the
chance of the stockpot's temp dropping into the danger zone sounds
much less than a pot heated only a few hours a day.

Actually I used to cook on one that my wife's family had in an old cabin in
Big Bear Ca. It was on the north shore near Fawnskin. The stove was called
Caroline and you had to stoke up caroling if you wanted hot water for a bath
or to wash.

Damn that little kitchen got hot when Caroline was stoked up.


--
Dimitri

Penne Rigate Autunnale

http://kitchenguide.wordpress.com.

Mark Thorson wrote:
> john royce wrote:
>> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
>> suffered from food poisoning.
>
> I remember reading that one of the historical artifacts
> destroyed during the Cultural Revolution was stock pot
> at a famous restaurant that had been kept going for
> centuries. Though I assume that was heated all the time.
>
> I wish I could find the details. A Google search gets
> lost in spam.



Eeeeuuuuwwww.

Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally
spoil, just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.

You might not get the bacterial spoilage at high heat, but the
texture will be nasty in a short time.

Sorry, but it really sounds awful.

gloria p

In article >,
ChefToddMohr > wrote:

> Perpetual Hobo Stew?
>
> Sounds weird to me, but as long as the items are kept out of the
> temperature danger zone of 40-140F (6-60c), it will inhibit bacterial
> growth, which is what makes you sick.

That's what "they" say, but it seems to me that there are two
possibilities, only one of which is dangerous:

1) Bacteria which will cause problems if they get inside you, or

2) Bacteria which produce toxins *not destroyed by heat* which will
cause problems if they get inside you

For case #1, simply heating the stuff to a bacteria-killing temperature
will make it safe to eat; for case #2, heating will not make it safe to
eat.

Now, the question is, which of those two is in fact the real situation?

(And please, if you don't KNOW, don't guess; a guess is no good to
anybody).

Isaac

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:06:10 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> john royce wrote:
>>
>> Apparently he kept the pot going in this fashion for months on end. He never
>> suffered from food poisoning.
>
> I remember reading that one of the historical artifacts
> destroyed during the Cultural Revolution was stock pot
> at a famous restaurant that had been kept going for
> centuries. Though I assume that was heated all the time.
>
> I wish I could find the details. A Google search gets
> lost in spam.

i was thinking of a chinese 'master sauce.' i turned up some google hits
for that. don't know about the cultural revolution angle.

i can see the actual food ingredients disintegrating into the sauce making
it tasty, but a for them being actual morsels of food - well, it doesn't
sound too appetizing.

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:02:00 -0700, "Dimitri" >
wrote:

>Ever hear of a wood stove? There was usually a fire in the firebox
>throughout the waking hours, with the fire carefully banked at night.
>Combined with the huge thermal mass of the old cast-iron stoves, the
>chance of the stockpot's temp dropping into the danger zone sounds
>much less than a pot heated only a few hours a day.
>
>Actually I used to cook on one that my wife's family had in an old cabin in
>Big Bear Ca. It was on the north shore near Fawnskin. The stove was called
>Caroline and you had to stoke up caroling if you wanted hot water for a bath
>or to wash.
>
>Damn that little kitchen got hot when Caroline was stoked up.
>
My grandparents had an old kitchen and a new kitchen. The old kitchen
had a wood stove which my grandfather lit up every day it was cold.
He warmed the room and cooked on it. He made us breakfast on the wood
stove every cool/cold day we had. Fried mush anyone? It's great
topped with butter and maple syrup.

He was always up before dawn no matter what time of year, so kids who
woke up early never found him in bed. Those are cherished memories.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Kajikit wrote:

> It sounds like a pretty boring diet, but safe because the food was
> always being recooked... that's pretty much what they used to do in
> the olden days when they'd keep a stewpot on the heart contiuously and
> just put whatever they had in it.


Some Chinese claim to have a Master Sauce that has been simmering on the
stove for 100+ years. They just keep poaching chicken and aromatics in
it, using some of the sauce for the dish itself while it replenishes
itself by the juice of the chicken and vegetables.

-sw

ChefToddMohr wrote:

> Sounds weird to me, but as long as the items are kept out of the
> temperature danger zone of 40-140F (6-60c), it will inhibit bacterial
> growth, which is what makes you sick.

Temps outside that range do *not* inhibit grown of nasties, they are just
not as active. Things in your fridge will still go bad, for example.
Foods held at 140-160F should be disinfected at higher temps every 12-24
hours or so. Foods held at 140-160F or 0-40F are not indefinitely safe -
not even close.

-sw

Gloria P wrote:

> Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally spoil,
> just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.

Yes - Chinese master sauces would be brought to a boil a couple times a
day. or kept in the fridge for 2-3 days tops and quickly brought to a
boil before each use.

-sw

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:40:37 -0500, Sqwertz >
wrote:

>Gloria P wrote:
>
>> Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally spoil,
>> just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.
>
>Yes - Chinese master sauces would be brought to a boil a couple times a
>day. or kept in the fridge for 2-3 days tops and quickly brought to a
>boil before each use.
>
>-sw


Folks have had the soup pot going constantly since long before there
was a fridge.

On Oct 20, 7:37*pm, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:40:37 -0500, Sqwertz >
> wrote:
>
> >Gloria P wrote:
>
> >> Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally spoil,
> >> just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.
>
> >Yes - Chinese master sauces would be brought to a boil a couple times a
> >day. *or kept in the fridge for 2-3 days tops and quickly brought to a
> >boil before each use.
>
> >-sw
>
> Folks have had the soup pot going constantly since long before there
> was a fridge.

And their internal systems were probably conditioned for that kind of
food....I certainly couldn't eat a continuously cooking dish for
multiple days if it had any kind of meat in it; I'm not used to it.

My in-laws used to leave left-over fried chicken out on the countertop
all night and nibble on it the next day - it would have made me sicker
than a dog, but it didn't phase them at all.

N.

Nancy2 wrote:
> On Oct 20, 7:37 pm, brooklyn1 > wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:40:37 -0500, Sqwertz >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gloria P wrote:
>>>> Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally spoil,
>>>> just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.
>>> Yes - Chinese master sauces would be brought to a boil a couple times a
>>> day. or kept in the fridge for 2-3 days tops and quickly brought to a
>>> boil before each use.
>>> -sw
>> Folks have had the soup pot going constantly since long before there
>> was a fridge.
>
> And their internal systems were probably conditioned for that kind of
> food....I certainly couldn't eat a continuously cooking dish for
> multiple days if it had any kind of meat in it; I'm not used to it.
>
> My in-laws used to leave left-over fried chicken out on the countertop
> all night and nibble on it the next day - it would have made me sicker
> than a dog, but it didn't phase them at all.
>
> N.

That's totally different!

--
Jean B.

On Oct 21, 4:06*pm, "Jean B." > wrote:
> Nancy2 wrote:
> > On Oct 20, 7:37 pm, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:40:37 -0500, Sqwertz >
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> Gloria P wrote:
> >>>> Just because something is kept hot doesn't mean it won't finally spoil,
> >>>> just like something kept in the freezer won't last forever.
> >>> Yes - Chinese master sauces would be brought to a boil a couple times a
> >>> day. *or kept in the fridge for 2-3 days tops and quickly brought to a
> >>> boil before each use.
> >>> -sw
> >> Folks have had the soup pot going constantly since long before there
> >> was a fridge.
>
> > And their internal systems were probably conditioned for that kind of
> > food....I certainly couldn't eat a continuously cooking dish for
> > multiple days if it had any kind of meat in it; I'm not used to it.
>
> > My in-laws used to leave left-over fried chicken out on the countertop
> > all night and nibble on it the next day - it would have made me sicker
> > than a dog, but it didn't phase them at all.
>
> > N.
>
> That's totally different!
>
> --
> Jean B.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, I know it is, but it's one example of how people's bodies get
used to certain things over time.

N.