HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:RiUqb.103095$9E1.492295@attbi_s52...
>
> Obedience training.

You mean jerking and choking the dog on a pronged
spiked pinch choke collar? Ain't that what made your
dog Cubbe TURN on you when you first got her?

Ain't it?

Of CURSE it is.

> You're probably right about the reasons for the dog's
> misbehavior towards you, but even if you're wrong,
> the answer is the same.

That so?

> Take the dog to an obedience class

Like HOWE you did to make your dog TURN on you, liea?

> so you and the dog can learn together a new
> way to relate.

Like HOWE you did?

> There are lots of classes and philosophies and trainers.

That so? You HURT your dog, liea.

> Do some reading at the library,

Got any SUGGESTIONS, liea?

> and choose one you feel comfortable with.

You feel comfortable HURTIN your dog, liea.

> That should be a method that involves an
> emphasis on positive reinforcement.

Like HOWE you do your dog Cubbe, liea?

> You should learn to teach the dog HEEL, SIT,
> DOWN, COME, STAY and a few other commands.

That so? It ain't even her own dog. She got no
use for trainin him. All she wants to do is make
the dog not try to attack her.

> Start with the classes and practicing at home when
> your mother and stepfather aren't at home.

Your dog TURNED on you for chokin her, liea.

> Some of the practice will involve teaching
> commands when you and the dog are outside.

That so, liea?

> Then practice when they're home but in another room.

That'll take some doin, the dog wants to attack her, liea.

> Move to practice when they're in the room
> with you but ignoring everything that's going on.

The dog wants to attack her, liea.

She don't wanna take IT to class, she wants to
show him she ain't gonna HURT HIM like you do
your dog Cubbe, liea.

> This is a fair committment on your part since you'll
> be practicing with the dog several times a day in short
> sessions.

No, she's afraid the dog will attack her, liea.

> It will be worth it.

The dog wants to attack her, liea. Like HOWE
your dog Cubbe attacked your only friend... and
that other dog, and tried to attack them kids, cause
YOU HURT HER and LIE abHOWET it, liea.

> --Lia

> (This post will invariably be followed by a viscious one

You mean, a history of you ABUSING your dog Cubbe?

> from our resident usenet lunatic.

Your own dog Cubbe gets shocked and jerked
and choked on a pronged spiked pinch choke
collar and attacks people and critters and runs
HOWET on you every chance she gets, liea.

REMEMBER?

> Please ignore it.

Right. Pretty EMBARRASSING stuff, eh liea?

> The rest of us have him killfiled.

You mean, the liars, dog abusers, and MENTAL
CASES you play with here abHOWETS, liea?

> I wouldn't know he was there if not for new posters' answers.)

RIGHT!

Here's your dog Cubbe getttin HURT and HURTIN others:

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
>
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
> all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
> not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
> but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
> anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.
>
> --Lia
>
>
> Gwen Watson wrote:
>
> > Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
> > There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
> > down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
> > for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
> > been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
> > is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
> > of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...

> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia

=============

The Puppy Wizard wrote:

> HOWEDY liea,
>
> "Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> news:RiUqb.103095$9E1.492295@attbi_s52...
>
>>Obedience training.


You would *please* stop cross posting!!! No one here at RFC cares about
wittle Cubbe...

~john!

--
What was it like to see - the face of your own stability - suddenly look
away...

HOWEDY melanie,

"Melanie L Chang" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would personally not force any contact with her.

Right. That didn't work already.

> If she is afraid of you,

Right. That's the OP's chief complaint.

> then for her, your presence predicts the onset of fear or bad
> feelings.

Imagine? You think maybe she was weaned too young/

> What you want to do is change the association, so that your
> presence predicts good things.

You mean bribes. That didn't work either, already.

> I think it would be useful for you to take over feeding

That's idiocy.

> and other care routines -

The OP would just like to live in peace.

> - that she enjoys.

That ain't gonna happen cause the dog wants to attack her.

REMEMBER?

> However, I would remain neutral and essentially ignore
> her as you go about these things.

You mean, feedin an carin for her?

> Initiating a direct interactions (like when you pet her in the
> presence of your mom and stepdad) is probably too much
> for her to handle.

Yeah. Your own dog Solo has problems for bein near people.

> Eventually, in your "neutral but predicting good things" role
> you may find that she is more at ease around you,

Your dog Solo has been on psychotropics and in treatment
at UofPA behavior clinic for three years UNSUCCESSFULLY.

> and over time that she may even come to you.

Yeah...

> But don't rush it.

BWEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

> I have a dog who is fearful of strangers.

RIGHT!

Your dog has been on medication and in trainin for three years.

UNSUCCESSFULLY.

> He is most comfortable with people who completely ignore him,

And bring him his dinner and take care of his other needs while
ignoring him.

> as if he is not there.

Yeah...

> I reward him for approaching them and greeting them
appropriately,

Do you nHOWE? That hasn't worked in three years, already.

HAS IT.

> and after a period of time he may solicit attention and pats
from them.

BWEEAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAAA!!!

> But this is after a whole lot of just desensitizing him to
being
> around strangers -

YOUR METHODS DON'T WORK.

> - to begin with,

You HURT and INTIMIDATE Solo. He was taken
off his psychotropics when you went to Europe
and he stayed at the kennel CAUSE HE WAS NORMAL.

Solo is AFRAID cause YOU HURT HIM.

> I would do things like pass him a treat simply for walking by a
> stranger on the sidewalk, even if he didn't even look at the
person.

That'll make some dogs suspiciHOWES, like the OP's dog.

> After some time, he started looking up at me for his treat every
time we
> encountered a new person, and that's when I knew the association
was
> starting to become positive for him.

BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> The people Solo absolutely cannot handle are the ones who force
> themselves on him -- the ones who must pet him, look him right
in the
> eye, talk to him immediately and try to rumple his ears, bending
over him
> with a big smile. At best he ducks away from these people, at
worst he
> lunges at them with all his teeth showing.

You just never know what a dog might do, eh melanie?

> It's just too much for him.

That's cause you abuse him, melanie.

> They don't allow him to formulate an opinion of them (safe vs.
> dangerous), they just plunge right in. This forces him to
default to
> survival mode (fight/flight).

You allHOWED a stranger to beat Solo in the face with a shepherd's
crook.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.


> ----------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows
function.
> Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
> University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
> |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
---------

The guy you're responding to has been infesting the dog groups for
years. He's the troll that doesn't going away. We're talking about
literally hundreds of messages daily all filled with reposted old
messages from years earlier. All the regulars have him killfiled.
Periodically when no one answers him (because he's killfiled), he begins
crossposting to unrelated groups. Please just ignore him, or if you
must argue, remove the crossposts. Here's the canned message on the
subject.



This message is posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior (r.p.d.b.) regularly
and occasionally to other newsgroups including alt.animals.dog,
rec.pets.dogs.rescue, alt.pets.dog, and rec.pets.dogs.misc. These are
unmoderated groups meaning that no one checks the messages to make sure
they're
on-topic, civil or sensible before they go through.

The purpose of this occasional posting is to give information about the
newsgroup so that discussion about the newsgroup itself is cut down and
discussion about dogs increases.

Like so many usenet groups, this group has people who post annoyingly
and constantly, people who post angry and abusive messages, people who
post to irritate others. It's up to individuals to decide which posters
bother them.

Here are some guidelines that many people follow to make this newsgroup
pleasant and informative:

1. Use your killfile. A killfile (or filter) makes invisible posts by
any particular person or with any particular words in the subject line.
The posts are still there, but they don't show up on the screen of the
person using the killfile. Look at
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm for
instructions. Or
try: http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/OE_FAQ_newsgroups.html.


2. Don't make more noise. The only thing more annoying than a troll is
an otherwise rational person arguing with or about a troll. That's
known as feeding the trolls. Please don't feed the trolls. It really
is insane to attempt rational discussion with the insane.

3. Want to exercise your right to free speech and argue about or with
trolls anyway? Put "ninnyboy" in the subject line. That way the people
who want to join the fracas can, and those who don't can opt out by
killfiling "ninnyboy." If you don't do this, expect to be killfiled
yourself. [Jerry], with the brackets is also a recognized signal.

4. Figured out that arguing with trolls is useless but still want to
talk about trolls by referring to them in the third person? Put
"ninnyboy" in the subject line then too. That subject is boring too.

5. Trim quoted posts to include only the part you're responding to.
Quoting an entire long post in order to respond to only a small piece of
it is annoying. Again, if you don't do this, expect to be killfiled.

6. Sometimes the group gets temporary trolls in addition to the
resident ones. Label those [eggplant].

7. Show no fear. Have a question or need to admit that you've made
errors in dog training in the past? This is still a good place to come
for (often contradictory) advice. Use your own judgment to decide what
advice to follow and what not to. No harm can come to you even if
people vehemently disagree, call you names or repost your old messages.

8. Label off-topic threads as "OT." A label helps people decide what
to read and what not to.

9. Check the F.A.Q. for answers to frequent non-complicated questions.

10. Don't post pictures. This is not a binary newsgroup. That's plain
text only, no HTML, no attachments. If you'd like, post a pointer to a
website with pictures on it.

11. Don't crosspost. It's bad enough when someone posts something dog
related to all the groups having to do with dogs. It's worse when
totally unrelated groups get tossed in the mix. Feel like you
absolutely have to jump in on something that's been crossposted to unrelated
groups? Erase the extraneous ones when you answer.

Great advice, It is something that takes time. Dogs that have been abused
are fearful and it does take time to trust again, but when they do they are
the most loyal. Good luck and keep plenty of treats on hand!

--
Sugar & Spice Quilts by Linda E
http://community.webshots.com/user/frame242

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> 1. Use your killfile.


done...

~john!

--
What was it like to see - the face of your own stability - suddenly look
away...

HOWEDY nana2b,

"nana2b" > wrote in message
...
>
> Great advice,

That so? The advice was mistaken and dangerHOWES.

> It is something that takes time.

Should take a few minutes if you stop bribing the dog.

Dogs are SCAVENGERS. They STEAL scraps and
run to hide to eat it with their back to the wall in a
heightened state of alert.

Some dogs get AFRAID when people offer them food.

> Dogs that have been abused are fearful

NO PROBLEM. That's EZ to decondition if you know HOWE.

> and it does take time to trust again,

Yeah, maybe a couple days.

> but when they do they are the most loyal.

NO. That's FEAR you're seein.

> Good luck

Dog trainin ain't LUCK. "Luck is for SUCKERS," The
Puppy Wizard's DADDY.

> and keep plenty of treats on hand!

Bribery makes this particular dog MOORE MISTRUSTFUL.
-
> Sugar & Spice Quilts by Linda E
> http://community.webshots.com/user/frame242

You must be WON of liea's pals from quilting. Here's
liea altshuller HURTIN her dog, and lettin her dog
HURT a other dog and a few people and havin obsessive
compulsive behavior problems as a resul of liea HURTIN her:


"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
>
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
> all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
> not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
> but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
> anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.
>
> --Lia
>
>
> Gwen Watson wrote:
>
> > Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
> > There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
> > down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
> > for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
> > been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
> > is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
> > of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...

> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia

=============

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:C38rb.103414$mZ5.687602@attbi_s54...
>
> Hey folks!

Which folks, liea? Your lying dog abusing Punk
Thug Coward MENTALLY ILL pals?

> Remember to remove the crossposts.

So folks won't SEE what you do to your dog, liea?

> These dog messages are showing up all over.

Ooooh, that IS embarrassin, ain't it, liea.

> --Lia

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
>
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
> all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
> not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
> but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
> anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.
>
> --Lia
>
>
> Gwen Watson wrote:
>
> > Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
> > There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
> > down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
> > for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
> > been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
> > is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
> > of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...

> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia

=============

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:bG6rb.105114$275.297039@attbi_s53...
>
> The guy you're responding to

You mean, The Puppy Wizard.

> has been infesting the dog groups for years.

Since you been hurting your dog, remember liea?
Your dog Cubbe began turning on you soon as
The Puppy Wizard came on the WWW.

You've been HURTING your dog ever since, and
complainin abHOWET The Puppy Wizard EXXXPOSING
YOU as a liar and dog abuser and MENTAL CASE.

> He's the troll that doesn't going away.

That's cause you continue HURTING dogs and
LYING abHOWET it.

> We're talking about literally hundreds of messages
> daily all filled with reposted old messages from years
> earlier.

You mean, your own posting history of hurting
your dog and her hurting your friends and neighbors
and escaping your shock fence, liea.

> All the regulars have him killfiled.

Cause all the regulars are liars and dog
abusers and MENTAL CASES like yourself, liea.

> Periodically when no one answers him
> (because he's killfiled),

You read The Puppy Wizard's posts first, liea.

> he begins crossposting to unrelated groups.

Only to EMBARRASS you, liea.

> Please just ignore him,

And ignore your animal abuse, liea? You'd LIKE that.

> or if you must argue, remove the crossposts.

So you don't get EMBARRASSED, liea?

> Here's the canned message on the subject.

Here's your posting history. You're a liar and
dog abuser and MENTAL CASE:

Cubbe and head shaking
Date: 2003-10-28 20:50:28 PST

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:_FGnb.41501$ao4.93995@attbi_s51...
>
> Some of you may remember the saga of "All My Vets"
> in which Jim and Julia go off into the wilds of New England
> searching for a veterinarian who is close to home, reasonably
> priced,

You mean, a economy vet.

> has boarding,

Ethical vets don't board healthy dogs in clinics.

> gives good diagnoses and medical advice

See above.

> and does lightening fast exams given that Cubbe
> does not tolerate being held still and prodded well.

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!


> Today we decided to forgo the close to home part
> and drive 40 minutes out of our way to the vet we
> used to go to before he moved. Then we learned
> that the guy we liked was working in the surgery
> so we drove all that way to get a different lady

Yeah... you shoulda called first.

> who turned out to be quite nice

That's nice.

> (and from Russia which is cool), but if we were
> going to try someone new, why do all the driving.

Right... forty miles is an investment.

> To make matters worse (or better in that ironic way),
> Cubbe does NOT have an ear infection.

HOWE abHOWET that.

> Her ears are fine.

INDEED.

> There's no evidence of bacterial or yeast infection at all.

So that means Cubbe's AFFLICTION is a OCD.

> The only thing Olga could recommend was to
> give her more exercise so she'll be more tired
> at night and not wake me up with shaking.

BWEEEAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> She thought it might be allergies, but we checked
> her for fleas, and she's not chewing on her forelegs.
> In any case, she said we might give her Benedryl to
> see if that helps, and we have some earwash we
> can squirt in.

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> Jim suggested (through gritted teeth) that the
> problem is psychosomatic,

INDEED.

> and not on the dog's part.

Well, you DID CAUSE her anxiety disorder.

> (He never thought the problem warranted a
> vet visit in the first place.)

RIGHT!

> Basically, Cubbe has a new hobby, and that's shaking.

Yeah. It's a obsessive compulsive disorder, like
professor lyin doc SCRUFF SHAKE dermer's little
dog Maxie The Magnificent FuriHOWESLY Obsessive
Compulsive Masturbator.

> She even demonstrated in the office as we were
> getting ready to go by shaking 3 times in succession.

Yeah. That's anxiHOWESNESS.

> I have to conclude that shaking has become, for
> Cubbe, a superstition in the way Karen Pryor uses
> the word.

karen pryor killed her kat cause she couldn't train IT
not to crap in her stove top.

> At some point, Cubbe shook,

As a SUBTERFUGE to get HOWETA puttin
on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar.

> and got rewarded by having her leash put on for a walk.

BWEEAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!

> Now Cubbe shakes several times in the process
> of being hooked up.

On accHOWENT of YOU HURT HER.

> If we take our time putting on coats or making sure
> we have plastic bags, she shakes several more times.
> She shakes coming in from a walk; she shakes when
> she wakes up; she shakes when getting comfortable.

She's got a nerveHOWES disorder from being abused, liea.

> I have no idea what goes on in that doggy brain

FEAR. That's HOWE COME she attacked your only
friend and them kids and the other dog, lia.

> when it comes to shaking.

You SHOCK and CHOKE her, liea.

> --Lia

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.


Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...

> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:19:13 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
> wrote:

> Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
> last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
> friend and assaulting a couple kids

Aggression by most dogs isn't from fear, they are asserting
their dominance. What every family dog needs to understand
they are NOT the pack Alpha. The family is their pack and
their owners are the Alpha members.

> and escaping
> her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
> HER AGGRESSIVE:

No. NOT understanding her beta role was the cause.
Additionally, dogs who have consistency in their life can
learn the rules of invisible fences quickly.

I also suspect the dog's undefined beta role within the
family has a lot to do with that OCD problem.

The guy you're responding to has been infesting the dog groups for
years. He's the troll that doesn't going away. We're talking about
literally hundreds of messages daily all filled with reposted old
messages from years earlier. All the regulars have him killfiled.
Periodically when no one answers him (because he's killfiled), he begins
crossposting to unrelated groups. Please just ignore him.