I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
guests!

One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
comes out very salty. Has this been your experience? Is brining
really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot, so brining
wouldn't be an issue there.)

I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!

Thanks!


Living in the land of cows.


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I find a place that will sell me turkey parts, such as leg-thighs,
wings, etc. I brown these with onion in the oven and then make a
reduced turkey stock separately from the to be roasted brined bird. This
makes a much better gravy than using the neck and other parts of the
roasted turkey, brined or not. The turkey stock should also be used in a
separate stuffing for flavor.
Happy Thanks.....
Kent

mrs_cruella wrote:
>
> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> 12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> guests!
>
> One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> comes out very salty. Has this been your experience? Is brining
> really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot, so brining
> wouldn't be an issue there.)
>
> I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Living in the land of cows.
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

mrs_cruella wrote:

> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> 12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> guests!
>
> One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?

Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
from other birds.

> Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
so brining
> wouldn't be an issue there.)

Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
more quickly.

> I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!

1 gallon of water
1 cup of salt
1/4 cup sugar (optional)
seasonings, your usual

Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.

Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
or so before carving.

Pastorio

mrs_cruella typed:
> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> 12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> guests!
>
> One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> comes out very salty. Has this been your experience? Is brining
> really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot, so brining
> wouldn't be an issue there.)
>
> I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>
> Thanks!
>
>
Here's a brine recipe with a special twist, Citrus. It's from our recently
departed Cuchulain Libby's contributions to alt.food.barbecue. Last Thanksgiving,
I made a similar brine that was inspired by this one. It was excellent.

Hound's Citrus Brined Chicken

Prepare the brine: 1 gallon water 1 cup Kosher salt or 1/2 cup table salt
juice of 3 oranges juice of three limes juice of three lemons rinds
from same 1 sliced white onion 1 head of garlic, crushed stems from
a bunch of cilantro, chopped serranos to taste, minimum of 4 rough
ground cumin and coriander 2 Tbsp each 1/4 cup chili powder or any ground
chile you prefer (1/4 cup onion powder is optional) (1/4cup garlic powder
is optional) Place the bird(s) and plenty of brine solution in a ziploc bag(s)
and leave refrigerated overnight prior to cooking. A cooler works fine also. I
use a 5 gal beverage cooler for all but the biggest turkeys. Frozen soda bottles,
or ice can be used to keep the cold. {8 lbs of ice= 1 gallon of water} An hour
before cooking take the bird out and thoroughly wash it down with cold water for
at least 30 seconds. You can place aromatics like garlic heads, apples, citrus in
the cavity of the bird for the cooking. I like also to place orange slices
between skin and meat. Smoke rear end of chicken toward the fire for 45
minutes/lb @ 225°F until the thigh is about 170°F. You can rotate as necessary to
avoid charring. Cooking this way will result in inedible skin, but juicy chicken.
If you like the crispy skin then place the chicken near the firebox. This works
for either chickens or turkeys. If you eliminate the brine (salt and water) the
rest of the recipe makes an excellent marinade for grilled chicken.

BOB

BOB wrote:
> mrs_cruella typed:
>> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year
> Here's a brine recipe with a special twist, Citrus. It's from our
> recently departed Cuchulain Libby's contributions to
> alt.food.barbecue. Last Thanksgiving, I made a similar brine that
> was inspired by this one. It was excellent.
>
> Hound's Citrus Brined Chicken
>
> Prepare the brine: 1 gallon water 1 cup Kosher salt or 1/2 cup
> table salt juice of 3 oranges juice of three limes juice of
> three lemons rinds from same 1 sliced white onion 1 head
> of garlic, crushed stems from a bunch of cilantro, chopped
> serranos to taste, minimum of 4 rough ground cumin and
> coriander 2 Tbsp each 1/4 cup chili powder or any ground chile
> you prefer (1/4 cup onion powder is optional) (1/4cup garlic
> powder is optional)

With all due respect to the dearly departed Cuchulain, anyone can see why I
hate turkey. If it requires all this crap simply to turn it into something
remotely palatable and perhaps moist, I would much rather have roast beef

Jill

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
.. .
> BOB wrote:
> > mrs_cruella typed:
> >> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year
> > Here's a brine recipe with a special twist, Citrus. It's from our
> > recently departed Cuchulain Libby's contributions to
> > alt.food.barbecue. Last Thanksgiving, I made a similar brine that
> > was inspired by this one. It was excellent.
> >
> > Hound's Citrus Brined Chicken
> >
> > Prepare the brine: 1 gallon water 1 cup Kosher salt or 1/2 cup
> > table salt juice of 3 oranges juice of three limes juice of
> > three lemons rinds from same 1 sliced white onion 1 head
> > of garlic, crushed stems from a bunch of cilantro, chopped
> > serranos to taste, minimum of 4 rough ground cumin and
> > coriander 2 Tbsp each 1/4 cup chili powder or any ground chile
> > you prefer (1/4 cup onion powder is optional) (1/4cup garlic
> > powder is optional)
>
> With all due respect to the dearly departed Cuchulain, anyone can see why
I
> hate turkey. If it requires all this crap simply to turn it into
something
> remotely palatable and perhaps moist, I would much rather have roast beef

>
> Jill
>
>

There's a trend nowadays to 'overflavor' meat and fish using heavy brining
(though this brine recipe isn't one of them), heavy-handed use of rubs and
sauces. I think it's just a phase.

Jack Temp

Jack Schidt® wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> BOB wrote:
>>> mrs_cruella typed:
>>>> I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year
>> With all due respect to the dearly departed Cuchulain, anyone can
>> see why I hate turkey. If it requires all this crap
>> Jill
>>
> There's a trend nowadays to 'overflavor' meat and fish using heavy
> brining (though this brine recipe isn't one of them), heavy-handed
> use of rubs and sauces. I think it's just a phase.
>
> Jack Temp

Gawd I hope so! I like to actually TASTE my food. You know, food? That
stuff you added all that crap to.

Jill Pure

In rec.food.cooking, mrs_cruella wrote:

> One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?

No. But you need to rinse the bird after brining.

Is brining
> really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot, so brining
> wouldn't be an issue there.)

It makes the meat somewhat moister.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turkey.
You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if you
want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> mrs_cruella wrote:
>
> > I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> > 12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> > day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> > guests!
> >
> > One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> > I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> > comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
>
> Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
> for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
> from other birds.
>
> > Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
> so brining
> > wouldn't be an issue there.)
>
> Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
> forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
> more quickly.
>
> > I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>
> 1 gallon of water
> 1 cup of salt
> 1/4 cup sugar (optional)
> seasonings, your usual
>
> Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
>
> Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
> hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
> or so before carving.
>
> Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

> For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turkey=
=2E
> You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if yo=
u
> want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.

My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste=20
like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried=20
turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of=20
other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They=20
include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll=20
add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that=20
would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use=20
B=E9arnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, I =

added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had=20
fruit in them.

I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to=20
which was added:
1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but=20
it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a=20
bit more coarse.

When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and=20
most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant=20
but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the=20
birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry=20
surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.

Everybody's MMV.

Pastorio


> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>=20
>>mrs_cruella wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
>>>guests!
>>>
>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
>>
>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
>>from other birds.
>>
>> > Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
>>so brining
>>
>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
>>
>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
>>more quickly.
>>
>>
>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>>
>>1 gallon of water
>>1 cup of salt
>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
>>seasonings, your usual
>>
>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
>>
>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
>>or so before carving.
>>
>>Pastorio

mrs_cruella wrote:


> One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> comes out very salty. Has this been your experience? Is brining
> really worth it?

We think it's worth it. My husband tried it 4 or 5 years ago, and now he
is in charge of doing the bird each year. Actually, he won't let me near
it any more.

I didn't think the drippings were excessively salty. I think they made
better gravy than when we didn't brine. I mix my pan drippings with
stock that I cook from the neck, gizzards, and vegetable peels on the
back of the stove. Between that and the drippings I always have about a
gallon of gravy.

Think of the brine as a marinade. You do it with other meats, why not a
turkey?



Dawn

I started brining 3 years ago and I'm not about to stop. The turkeys were so
moist and tender. I've already gotten calls from 2 of my brothers hinting that
maybe I should make the turkey again this year instead of my sister! (she
volunteered to host the whole family this year.)
My brine is very simple. you need:
5 gallon bucket with a lid.
A Turkey, thawed or at least mostly thawed.
1 cup of kosher salt (although last easter I used table salt and it was just
fine)
1/2 cup of sugar.
Water
Ice.
Fill bucket halfway with cold water, add salt and sugar and stir until
completely desolved. Add the turkey , and a few pounds of ice, make sure the
turkey is totally submerged. Put the lid on the bucket. Go to bed.( If you
should get up in the middle of the night check it and add some more ice if
all of the ice is melted). The next morning dump out the brine and rinse the
turkey off. Add whatever rubs you like-personally I go with a butter massage
and sprinkling of cajun seasoning all over. The gravy made from the drippings
is delicious-and no, it is not too salty.

Sandra

Sandra, how much water, per cup of salt?
Thanks


Sandy n ne wrote:
>
> I started brining 3 years ago and I'm not about to stop. The turkeys were so
> moist and tender. I've already gotten calls from 2 of my brothers hinting that
> maybe I should make the turkey again this year instead of my sister! (she
> volunteered to host the whole family this year.)
> My brine is very simple. you need:
> 5 gallon bucket with a lid.
> A Turkey, thawed or at least mostly thawed.
> 1 cup of kosher salt (although last easter I used table salt and it was just
> fine)
> 1/2 cup of sugar.
> Water
> Ice.
> Fill bucket halfway with cold water, add salt and sugar and stir until
> completely desolved. Add the turkey , and a few pounds of ice, make sure the
> turkey is totally submerged. Put the lid on the bucket. Go to bed.( If you
> should get up in the middle of the night check it and add some more ice if
> all of the ice is melted). The next morning dump out the brine and rinse the
> turkey off. Add whatever rubs you like-personally I go with a butter massage
> and sprinkling of cajun seasoning all over. The gravy made from the drippings
> is delicious-and no, it is not too salty.
>
> Sandra

Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal
saltiness. That's very salty. Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time to
fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter. Sugar adds to
the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less salt.
I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.
I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per
quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in
the finished product.

Kent

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turkey.
> > You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if you
> > want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
>
> My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
> like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
> turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
> other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
> include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll
> add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
> would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use
> Béarnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, I
> added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
> fruit in them.
>
> I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to
> which was added:
> 1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
> 1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
> 1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
> 1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
> 1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but
> it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
> 1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a
> bit more coarse.
>
> When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
> most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
> but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
> birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry
> surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
>
> Everybody's MMV.
>
> Pastorio
>
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>mrs_cruella wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> >>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> >>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> >>>guests!
> >>>
> >>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> >>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> >>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
> >>
> >>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
> >>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
> >>from other birds.
> >>
> >> > Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
> >>so brining
> >>
> >>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
> >>
> >>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
> >>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
> >>more quickly.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
> >>
> >>1 gallon of water
> >>1 cup of salt
> >>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
> >>seasonings, your usual
> >>
> >>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
> >>
> >>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
> >>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
> >>or so before carving.
> >>
> >>Pastorio

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 04:40:25 GMT, "Kent H." > wrote:

>Sandra, how much water, per cup of salt?
>Thanks

I would imagine 2-1/4 to 2-1/2 gallons, since she said to fill the 5
gallon bucket half full. I use a similar method, only I put the closed
bucket in a 10 gallon plastic trash can and cover the bucket with ice.
As long as there is ice floating in the can, I know the bird is cold.

>
>Sandy n ne wrote:
>>
>> I started brining 3 years ago and I'm not about to stop. The turkeys were so
>> moist and tender. I've already gotten calls from 2 of my brothers hinting that
>> maybe I should make the turkey again this year instead of my sister! (she
>> volunteered to host the whole family this year.)
>> My brine is very simple. you need:
>> 5 gallon bucket with a lid.
>> A Turkey, thawed or at least mostly thawed.
>> 1 cup of kosher salt (although last easter I used table salt and it was just
>> fine)
>> 1/2 cup of sugar.
>> Water
>> Ice.
>> Fill bucket halfway with cold water, add salt and sugar and stir until
>> completely desolved. Add the turkey , and a few pounds of ice, make sure the
>> turkey is totally submerged. Put the lid on the bucket. Go to bed.( If you
>> should get up in the middle of the night check it and add some more ice if
>> all of the ice is melted). The next morning dump out the brine and rinse the
>> turkey off. Add whatever rubs you like-personally I go with a butter massage
>> and sprinkling of cajun seasoning all over. The gravy made from the drippings
>> is delicious-and no, it is not too salty.
>>
>> Sandra

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:56:33 -0600, "jmcquown" >
wrote:

>With all due respect to the dearly departed Cuchulain, anyone can see why I
>hate turkey. If it requires all this crap simply to turn it into something
>remotely palatable and perhaps moist, I would much rather have roast beef

Let's face it, modern turkeys are stupid creatures overly inbred for
producing large breasts at a minimal cost. Flavor, texture, and
moistness were not even considered. They bear no semblance to their
wild cousin in any way.

Kent H. wrote:

> Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
> salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal
> saltiness. That's very salty.=20

"Normal" saltiness and iso-osmolarity are utterly irrelevant to the=20
issue of culinary flavor brining.

The functional capacities of diffusion and osmosis are the issues.

> Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
> brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time t=
o
> fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter.=20

In tests done by Russ Parsons, he established that a a 5% to 7% salt=20
solution (up to 2/3 cup salt per gallon) was a good level. "How to=20
Read a French Fry." Good book. And he posts to a mailing list I hang=20
out on and we've discussed it.

Alton Brown makes several variant brines that a 1) 2 quarts liquid=20
to 1/2 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar. Or, 2) 2 gallons of liquid=20
to 1 1/2 cups kosher salt and 1/2 cup brown sugar and a 6-ounce=20
container of frozen orange juice. Or, for brining and braising short=20
ribs, 3) 1/2 gallon dark beer, 1 quart ice water, 2 quarts beef stock,=20
1/2 cup red wine, 1 pound brown sugar (ca 2 1/4 cups), 1 cup kosher=20
salt, mirepoix. This last is brine (without the stock and mirepoix)=20
and cooking liquid which he suggests reducing to serve with the meat.=20
Apparently not too salty at this concentration or in reduction. "I'm=20
Just Here For The Food." Good book.

Shirley Corriher has another view, she puts a cup of salt into her=20
somewhat more loosely-defined brine. She says to put the chicken into=20
a pot just large enough to hold it, put in the cup of salt and ice=20
water to cover. I just measured what that would be on one of my pots=20
and it came to around 3 quarts of water. "Cookwise." Great book.

Penetration doesn't seem to be a problem to these people or to me in=20
the literally hundreds of chickens and other meats I've brined.

Brining longer with a lower concentration doesn't seem like a benefit=20
to me. And others say it doesn't work very well. Here's a quote from=20
the Weber site that quotes Cook's Illustrated magazine where the=20
current passion for brining came from:

<<<<<<<<<< quote >>>>>>>>>>>>> =09
Low-Salt Brining Doesn't Work
Some people find that flavor brined meat is just too salty for their=20
tastes. Will a flavor brine still work if you cut the amount of salt=20
in half? Not according to the November/December 2002 issue of Cook's=20
Illustrated magazine.

Cook's brined shrimp, pork chops, and whole chicken in a full-strength=20
solution and a half-strength solution for 1 hour per pound. After=20
cooking and tasting, they found that the meats brined at half-strength=20
were a lot less salty than those brined at full-strength, but the=20
improvement in moisture content was marginal, at best. In fact, for=20
shrimp and chicken, Cook's felt that there was no point in flavor=20
brining at half-strength at all.

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html
<<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>

> Sugar adds to
> the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less salt=
=2E

Flavor brining isn't a curing process. Curing is generally defined as=20
a preservation process. Brining as done for flavor enhancement at=20
these concentrations isn't preservative.

> I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
> meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.=20

If you don't know what it tastes like why do you assert it doesn't=20
taste like it? I don't believe I included ham in my comments, just=20
turkey. I don't brine cured hams. Processed ones don't need it as it's=20
already been done. Fresh hams I do as whole roasts that I brine=20
lightly (concentrated but for a short time), but with very little=20
sugar. I prefer a glaze. One man's tastes.

> I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per
> quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in
> the finished product.

But, as ever, Everybody'sMMV. I'm glad you like it.

Pastorio


> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>=20
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turke=
y.
>>>You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if y=
ou
>>>want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
>>
>>My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
>>like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
>>turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
>>other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
>>include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll
>>add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
>>would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use
>>B=E9arnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, =
I
>>added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
>>fruit in them.
>>
>>I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to
>>which was added:
>>1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
>>1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
>>1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
>>1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
>>1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but
>>it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
>>1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a
>>bit more coarse.
>>
>>When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
>>most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
>>but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
>>birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry
>>surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
>>
>>Everybody's MMV.
>>
>>Pastorio
>>
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>mrs_cruella wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally =
a
>>>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
>>>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
>>>>>guests!
>>>>>
>>>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy=
=2E
>>>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping=

>>>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
>>>>
>>>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
>>>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimming=
s
>>>
>>>>from other birds.
>>>
>>>>>Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
>>>>
>>>>so brining
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
>>>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
>>>>more quickly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>>>>
>>>>1 gallon of water
>>>>1 cup of salt
>>>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
>>>>seasonings, your usual
>>>>
>>>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
>>>>
>>>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven n=
o
>>>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minute=
s
>>>>or so before carving.
>>>>
>>>>Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
> > salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal
> > saltiness. That's very salty.
>
> "Normal" saltiness and iso-osmolarity are utterly irrelevant to the
> issue of culinary flavor brining.

You are incorrect. You lack the basics about your salt content, and what
you eat, as it relates to that.
>
> The functional capacities of diffusion and osmosis are the issues.
>
> > Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
> > brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time to
> > fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter.
>
> In tests done by Russ Parsons, he established that a a 5% to 7% salt
> solution (up to 2/3 cup salt per gallon) was a good level. "How to
> Read a French Fry." Good book. And he posts to a mailing list I hang
> out on and we've discussed it.
>
> Alton Brown makes several variant brines that a 1) 2 quarts liquid
> to 1/2 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar. Or, 2) 2 gallons of liquid
> to 1 1/2 cups kosher salt and 1/2 cup brown sugar and a 6-ounce
> container of frozen orange juice. Or, for brining and braising short
> ribs, 3) 1/2 gallon dark beer, 1 quart ice water, 2 quarts beef stock,
> 1/2 cup red wine, 1 pound brown sugar (ca 2 1/4 cups), 1 cup kosher
> salt, mirepoix. This last is brine (without the stock and mirepoix)
> and cooking liquid which he suggests reducing to serve with the meat.
> Apparently not too salty at this concentration or in reduction. "I'm
> Just Here For The Food." Good book.
>
> Shirley Corriher has another view, she puts a cup of salt into her
> somewhat more loosely-defined brine. She says to put the chicken into
> a pot just large enough to hold it, put in the cup of salt and ice
> water to cover. I just measured what that would be on one of my pots
> and it came to around 3 quarts of water. "Cookwise." Great book.
>
> Penetration doesn't seem to be a problem to these people or to me in
> the literally hundreds of chickens and other meats I've brined.
>
> Brining longer with a lower concentration doesn't seem like a benefit
> to me. And others say it doesn't work very well. Here's a quote from
> the Weber site that quotes Cook's Illustrated magazine where the
> current passion for brining came from:
>
> <<<<<<<<<< quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Low-Salt Brining Doesn't Work
> Some people find that flavor brined meat is just too salty for their
> tastes. Will a flavor brine still work if you cut the amount of salt
> in half? Not according to the November/December 2002 issue of Cook's
> Illustrated magazine.
>
> Cook's brined shrimp, pork chops, and whole chicken in a full-strength
> solution and a half-strength solution for 1 hour per pound. After
> cooking and tasting, they found that the meats brined at half-strength
> were a lot less salty than those brined at full-strength, but the
> improvement in moisture content was marginal, at best. In fact, for
> shrimp and chicken, Cook's felt that there was no point in flavor
> brining at half-strength at all.
>
> http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html
> <<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> > Sugar adds to
> > the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less salt.
>
> Flavor brining isn't a curing process. Curing is generally defined as
> a preservation process. Brining as done for flavor enhancement at
> these concentrations isn't preservative.
>
> > I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
> > meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.
>
> If you don't know what it tastes like why do you assert it doesn't
> taste like it? I don't believe I included ham in my comments, just
> turkey. I don't brine cured hams. Processed ones don't need it as it's
> already been done. Fresh hams I do as whole roasts that I brine
> lightly (concentrated but for a short time), but with very little
> sugar. I prefer a glaze. One man's tastes.
>
> > I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per
> > quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in
> > the finished product.
>
> But, as ever, Everybody'sMMV. I'm glad you like it.
>
> Pastorio
>
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turkey.
> >>>You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if you
> >>>want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
> >>
> >>My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
> >>like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
> >>turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
> >>other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
> >>include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll
> >>add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
> >>would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use
> >>Béarnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, I
> >>added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
> >>fruit in them.
> >>
> >>I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to
> >>which was added:
> >>1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
> >>1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
> >>1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
> >>1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
> >>1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but
> >>it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
> >>1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a
> >>bit more coarse.
> >>
> >>When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
> >>most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
> >>but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
> >>birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry
> >>surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
> >>
> >>Everybody's MMV.
> >>
> >>Pastorio
> >>
> >>
> >>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>mrs_cruella wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> >>>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> >>>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> >>>>>guests!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> >>>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> >>>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
> >>>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
> >>>
> >>>>from other birds.
> >>>
> >>>>>Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
> >>>>
> >>>>so brining
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
> >>>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
> >>>>more quickly.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
> >>>>
> >>>>1 gallon of water
> >>>>1 cup of salt
> >>>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
> >>>>seasonings, your usual
> >>>>
> >>>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
> >>>>
> >>>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
> >>>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
> >>>>or so before carving.
> >>>>
> >>>>Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

>=20
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>=20
>>Kent H. wrote:
>
>>>Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
>>>salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal=

>>>saltiness. That's very salty.
>>
>>"Normal" saltiness and iso-osmolarity are utterly irrelevant to the
>>issue of culinary flavor brining.
>=20
> You are incorrect. You lack the basics about your salt content, and wha=
t
> you eat, as it relates to that.

Is this your idea of a rational reply? You post your opinion, it's=20
replied to at some length with reasonable references and you offer an=20
unsupported contradiction and a vague and opaque insult in return?

Thanks.

Pastorio


>>The functional capacities of diffusion and osmosis are the issues.
>>
>> > Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
>>
>>>brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time =
to
>>>fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter.
>>
>>In tests done by Russ Parsons, he established that a a 5% to 7% salt
>>solution (up to 2/3 cup salt per gallon) was a good level. "How to
>>Read a French Fry." Good book. And he posts to a mailing list I hang
>>out on and we've discussed it.
>>
>>Alton Brown makes several variant brines that a 1) 2 quarts liquid
>>to 1/2 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar. Or, 2) 2 gallons of liquid
>>to 1 1/2 cups kosher salt and 1/2 cup brown sugar and a 6-ounce
>>container of frozen orange juice. Or, for brining and braising short
>>ribs, 3) 1/2 gallon dark beer, 1 quart ice water, 2 quarts beef stock,
>>1/2 cup red wine, 1 pound brown sugar (ca 2 1/4 cups), 1 cup kosher
>>salt, mirepoix. This last is brine (without the stock and mirepoix)
>>and cooking liquid which he suggests reducing to serve with the meat.
>>Apparently not too salty at this concentration or in reduction. "I'm
>>Just Here For The Food." Good book.
>>
>>Shirley Corriher has another view, she puts a cup of salt into her
>>somewhat more loosely-defined brine. She says to put the chicken into
>>a pot just large enough to hold it, put in the cup of salt and ice
>>water to cover. I just measured what that would be on one of my pots
>>and it came to around 3 quarts of water. "Cookwise." Great book.
>>
>>Penetration doesn't seem to be a problem to these people or to me in
>>the literally hundreds of chickens and other meats I've brined.
>>
>>Brining longer with a lower concentration doesn't seem like a benefit
>>to me. And others say it doesn't work very well. Here's a quote from
>>the Weber site that quotes Cook's Illustrated magazine where the
>>current passion for brining came from:
>>
>><<<<<<<<<< quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Low-Salt Brining Doesn't Work
>>Some people find that flavor brined meat is just too salty for their
>>tastes. Will a flavor brine still work if you cut the amount of salt
>>in half? Not according to the November/December 2002 issue of Cook's
>>Illustrated magazine.
>>
>>Cook's brined shrimp, pork chops, and whole chicken in a full-strength
>>solution and a half-strength solution for 1 hour per pound. After
>>cooking and tasting, they found that the meats brined at half-strength
>>were a lot less salty than those brined at full-strength, but the
>>improvement in moisture content was marginal, at best. In fact, for
>>shrimp and chicken, Cook's felt that there was no point in flavor
>>brining at half-strength at all.
>>
>>http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html
>><<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>Sugar adds to
>>>the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less sal=
t.
>>
>>Flavor brining isn't a curing process. Curing is generally defined as
>>a preservation process. Brining as done for flavor enhancement at
>>these concentrations isn't preservative.
>>
>>
>>>I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
>>>meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.
>>
>>If you don't know what it tastes like why do you assert it doesn't
>>taste like it? I don't believe I included ham in my comments, just
>>turkey. I don't brine cured hams. Processed ones don't need it as it's
>>already been done. Fresh hams I do as whole roasts that I brine
>>lightly (concentrated but for a short time), but with very little
>>sugar. I prefer a glaze. One man's tastes.
>>
>>
>>>I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per=

>>>quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in=

>>>the finished product.
>>
>>But, as ever, Everybody'sMMV. I'm glad you like it.
>>
>>Pastorio
>>
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kent H. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with tur=
key.
>>>>>You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if=
you
>>>>>want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
>>>>
>>>>My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
>>>>like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
>>>>turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
>>>>other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
>>>>include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'l=
l
>>>>add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
>>>>would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to us=
e
>>>>B=E9arnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time=
, I
>>>>added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
>>>>fruit in them.
>>>>
>>>>I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, t=
o
>>>>which was added:
>>>>1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
>>>>1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich=

>>>>1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
>>>>1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
>>>>1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but=

>>>>it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
>>>>1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture =
a
>>>>bit more coarse.
>>>>
>>>>When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
>>>>most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
>>>>but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
>>>>birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dr=
y
>>>>surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
>>>>
>>>>Everybody's MMV.
>>>>
>>>>Pastorio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>mrs_cruella wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normall=
y a
>>>>>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
>>>>>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on=

>>>>>>>guests!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gra=
vy.
>>>>>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan drippi=
ng
>>>>>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use=

>>>>>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmi=
ngs
>>>>>
>>>>>>from other birds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>so brining
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
>>>>>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
>>>>>>more quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1 gallon of water
>>>>>>1 cup of salt
>>>>>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
>>>>>>seasonings, your usual
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven=
no
>>>>>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minu=
tes
>>>>>>or so before carving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Pastorio

Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
that tastes salty. 1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
suitable for brining. 2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
if you leave it in the brine a long time.
Cheers,
Kent

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> >
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >
> >>>Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
> >>>salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal
> >>>saltiness. That's very salty.
> >>
> >>"Normal" saltiness and iso-osmolarity are utterly irrelevant to the
> >>issue of culinary flavor brining.
> >
> > You are incorrect. You lack the basics about your salt content, and what
> > you eat, as it relates to that.
>
> Is this your idea of a rational reply? You post your opinion, it's
> replied to at some length with reasonable references and you offer an
> unsupported contradiction and a vague and opaque insult in return?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Pastorio
>
> >>The functional capacities of diffusion and osmosis are the issues.
> >>
> >> > Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
> >>
> >>>brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time to
> >>>fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter.
> >>
> >>In tests done by Russ Parsons, he established that a a 5% to 7% salt
> >>solution (up to 2/3 cup salt per gallon) was a good level. "How to
> >>Read a French Fry." Good book. And he posts to a mailing list I hang
> >>out on and we've discussed it.
> >>
> >>Alton Brown makes several variant brines that a 1) 2 quarts liquid
> >>to 1/2 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar. Or, 2) 2 gallons of liquid
> >>to 1 1/2 cups kosher salt and 1/2 cup brown sugar and a 6-ounce
> >>container of frozen orange juice. Or, for brining and braising short
> >>ribs, 3) 1/2 gallon dark beer, 1 quart ice water, 2 quarts beef stock,
> >>1/2 cup red wine, 1 pound brown sugar (ca 2 1/4 cups), 1 cup kosher
> >>salt, mirepoix. This last is brine (without the stock and mirepoix)
> >>and cooking liquid which he suggests reducing to serve with the meat.
> >>Apparently not too salty at this concentration or in reduction. "I'm
> >>Just Here For The Food." Good book.
> >>
> >>Shirley Corriher has another view, she puts a cup of salt into her
> >>somewhat more loosely-defined brine. She says to put the chicken into
> >>a pot just large enough to hold it, put in the cup of salt and ice
> >>water to cover. I just measured what that would be on one of my pots
> >>and it came to around 3 quarts of water. "Cookwise." Great book.
> >>
> >>Penetration doesn't seem to be a problem to these people or to me in
> >>the literally hundreds of chickens and other meats I've brined.
> >>
> >>Brining longer with a lower concentration doesn't seem like a benefit
> >>to me. And others say it doesn't work very well. Here's a quote from
> >>the Weber site that quotes Cook's Illustrated magazine where the
> >>current passion for brining came from:
> >>
> >><<<<<<<<<< quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>Low-Salt Brining Doesn't Work
> >>Some people find that flavor brined meat is just too salty for their
> >>tastes. Will a flavor brine still work if you cut the amount of salt
> >>in half? Not according to the November/December 2002 issue of Cook's
> >>Illustrated magazine.
> >>
> >>Cook's brined shrimp, pork chops, and whole chicken in a full-strength
> >>solution and a half-strength solution for 1 hour per pound. After
> >>cooking and tasting, they found that the meats brined at half-strength
> >>were a lot less salty than those brined at full-strength, but the
> >>improvement in moisture content was marginal, at best. In fact, for
> >>shrimp and chicken, Cook's felt that there was no point in flavor
> >>brining at half-strength at all.
> >>
> >>http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html
> >><<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>Sugar adds to
> >>>the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less salt.
> >>
> >>Flavor brining isn't a curing process. Curing is generally defined as
> >>a preservation process. Brining as done for flavor enhancement at
> >>these concentrations isn't preservative.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
> >>>meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.
> >>
> >>If you don't know what it tastes like why do you assert it doesn't
> >>taste like it? I don't believe I included ham in my comments, just
> >>turkey. I don't brine cured hams. Processed ones don't need it as it's
> >>already been done. Fresh hams I do as whole roasts that I brine
> >>lightly (concentrated but for a short time), but with very little
> >>sugar. I prefer a glaze. One man's tastes.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per
> >>>quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in
> >>>the finished product.
> >>
> >>But, as ever, Everybody'sMMV. I'm glad you like it.
> >>
> >>Pastorio
> >>
> >>
> >>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Kent H. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turkey.
> >>>>>You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if you
> >>>>>want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
> >>>>
> >>>>My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
> >>>>like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
> >>>>turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
> >>>>other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
> >>>>include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll
> >>>>add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
> >>>>would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use
> >>>>Béarnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, I
> >>>>added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
> >>>>fruit in them.
> >>>>
> >>>>I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to
> >>>>which was added:
> >>>>1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
> >>>>1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
> >>>>1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
> >>>>1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
> >>>>1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but
> >>>>it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
> >>>>1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a
> >>>>bit more coarse.
> >>>>
> >>>>When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
> >>>>most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
> >>>>but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
> >>>>birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry
> >>>>surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
> >>>>
> >>>>Everybody's MMV.
> >>>>
> >>>>Pastorio
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>mrs_cruella wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally a
> >>>>>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
> >>>>>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
> >>>>>>>guests!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy.
> >>>>>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping
> >>>>>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
> >>>>>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimmings
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>from other birds.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>so brining
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
> >>>>>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
> >>>>>>more quickly.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>1 gallon of water
> >>>>>>1 cup of salt
> >>>>>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
> >>>>>>seasonings, your usual
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven no
> >>>>>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minutes
> >>>>>>or so before carving.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
> > 1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
> > that tastes salty.
>
> My extracellular fluid or my intracellular fluid, for that matter, are
> irrelevant to the brining process.

The amount of extracellar sodium you have determines at which point you
will taste salt, as you indicate below.
>
> I just tested your theory about tasting salty. I did a teaspoon in a
> quart. It didn't taste salty. I noted the rather distant taste of
> salt, but it was very mild.

..9% NaCl, or close to 1 tsp/quart very closely approximates your
extracellular salt concentration. You shouldn't really taste it.

>
> It didn't start tasting what I would characterize as salty until I got
> to 1 1/2 tablespoons. But that doesn't mean that a brine of that
> intensity is too salty for useful brining.

4.5 tsp/quart would be a very mild brine, though not too far removed
from Alice Water's recipe.

>
> > 1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
> > suitable for brining.
>
> How it tastes is subjective. The physical effect isn't.

At some point your brined meat will taste saltier than you would want it
to.
>
> > 2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
> > at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
> > if you leave it in the brine a long time.
>
> At a 5% solution it will finally reach an equilibrium and not taste
> any saltier no matter how long you leave it in the brine.

When you brine in any salt concentration, it takes a very long time for
the salt to go from the surface of the turkey, or the pork loin to the
center. Frequently you hear people say it was a bit salty on the
outside, but nothing inside. Length of brining time or injection eithr
directly into the muscle or arterial injection addresses that.
>
> At 7%, it makes it go faster and it will end up saltier, if you let
> it. All the processes of cooking, including brining, require
> supervision. You can make the brines double strength for faster use.
> It means that a bit of care is necessary, but what culinary process in
> the kitchen doesn't require care?

I don't think a higher salt concentration speeds your brining time. It
just makes your meat saltier on its periphery.

Cheers,

Kent
>
> YMMV.
>
> Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:
>
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>

I just have to do an interlinear critique of the form Kent employs
here. It's such a sterling example of various rhetorical devices that
it bears analysis. Forget the "information" he offers, just look at
the methods.

>>>Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
>>>1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
>>>that tastes salty.
>>
>>My extracellular fluid or my intracellular fluid, for that matter, are
>>irrelevant to the brining process.
>
> The amount of extracellar sodium you have determines at which point you
> will taste salt, as you indicate below.

Note that my statement refers to the physical process of brining. See
his reply. It refers to tasting.

>>I just tested your theory about tasting salty. I did a teaspoon in a
>>quart. It didn't taste salty. I noted the rather distant taste of
>>salt, but it was very mild.
>
> .9% NaCl, or close to 1 tsp/quart very closely approximates your
> extracellular salt concentration. You shouldn't really taste it.

I tasted it; a pragmatic piece of information. He said I shouldn't
taste it; a theoretical piece of information.

>>It didn't start tasting what I would characterize as salty until I got
>>to 1 1/2 tablespoons. But that doesn't mean that a brine of that
>>intensity is too salty for useful brining.
>
> 4.5 tsp/quart would be a very mild brine, though not too far removed
> from Alice Water's recipe.

This time, it's not quite the same thing. Watch. I'm dealing with how
it tastes and the inefficacy of brining with that weak solution as
tested by several references. Kent says it's a mild brine (duh) but
edges in the notion that it's "...not too far from Alice Water's
recipe." Not too far. Good little slide in there, no? And her name is
Waters, not Water.

>>>1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
>>>suitable for brining.
>>
>>How it tastes is subjective. The physical effect isn't.
>
> At some point your brined meat will taste saltier than you would want it
> to.

I say that taste is subjective but physics isn't. He says it'll be
saltier than I want at some point.

>>>2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
>>>at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
>>>if you leave it in the brine a long time.
>>
>>At a 5% solution it will finally reach an equilibrium and not taste
>>any saltier no matter how long you leave it in the brine.
>
> When you brine in any salt concentration, it takes a very long time for
> the salt to go from the surface of the turkey, or the pork loin to the
> center. Frequently you hear people say it was a bit salty on the
> outside, but nothing inside. Length of brining time or injection eithr
> directly into the muscle or arterial injection addresses that.

I say that a 5% solution will reach an equilibrium. He says it takes a
long time to brine.

>>At 7%, it makes it go faster and it will end up saltier, if you let
>>it. All the processes of cooking, including brining, require
>>supervision. You can make the brines double strength for faster use.
>>It means that a bit of care is necessary, but what culinary process in
>>the kitchen doesn't require care?
>
> I don't think a higher salt concentration speeds your brining time. It
> just makes your meat saltier on its periphery.

Pam Anderson researched this whole subject (the same Pam Anderson that
Kent quoted, but only partially to suit the point he was asserting in
another post) and said it does speed brining time. Kent says he
doesn't "think" it speeds brining time.

Res ipsa loquitur.

Pastorio

Boy, you are really full of shit!
Enough said.


Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
> >
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
>
> I just have to do an interlinear critique of the form Kent employs
> here. It's such a sterling example of various rhetorical devices that
> it bears analysis. Forget the "information" he offers, just look at
> the methods.
>
> >>>Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
> >>>1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
> >>>that tastes salty.
> >>
> >>My extracellular fluid or my intracellular fluid, for that matter, are
> >>irrelevant to the brining process.
> >
> > The amount of extracellar sodium you have determines at which point you
> > will taste salt, as you indicate below.
>
> Note that my statement refers to the physical process of brining. See
> his reply. It refers to tasting.
>
> >>I just tested your theory about tasting salty. I did a teaspoon in a
> >>quart. It didn't taste salty. I noted the rather distant taste of
> >>salt, but it was very mild.
> >
> > .9% NaCl, or close to 1 tsp/quart very closely approximates your
> > extracellular salt concentration. You shouldn't really taste it.
>
> I tasted it; a pragmatic piece of information. He said I shouldn't
> taste it; a theoretical piece of information.
>
> >>It didn't start tasting what I would characterize as salty until I got
> >>to 1 1/2 tablespoons. But that doesn't mean that a brine of that
> >>intensity is too salty for useful brining.
> >
> > 4.5 tsp/quart would be a very mild brine, though not too far removed
> > from Alice Water's recipe.
>
> This time, it's not quite the same thing. Watch. I'm dealing with how
> it tastes and the inefficacy of brining with that weak solution as
> tested by several references. Kent says it's a mild brine (duh) but
> edges in the notion that it's "...not too far from Alice Water's
> recipe." Not too far. Good little slide in there, no? And her name is
> Waters, not Water.
>
> >>>1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
> >>>suitable for brining.
> >>
> >>How it tastes is subjective. The physical effect isn't.
> >
> > At some point your brined meat will taste saltier than you would want it
> > to.
>
> I say that taste is subjective but physics isn't. He says it'll be
> saltier than I want at some point.
>
> >>>2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
> >>>at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
> >>>if you leave it in the brine a long time.
> >>
> >>At a 5% solution it will finally reach an equilibrium and not taste
> >>any saltier no matter how long you leave it in the brine.
> >
> > When you brine in any salt concentration, it takes a very long time for
> > the salt to go from the surface of the turkey, or the pork loin to the
> > center. Frequently you hear people say it was a bit salty on the
> > outside, but nothing inside. Length of brining time or injection eithr
> > directly into the muscle or arterial injection addresses that.
>
> I say that a 5% solution will reach an equilibrium. He says it takes a
> long time to brine.
>
> >>At 7%, it makes it go faster and it will end up saltier, if you let
> >>it. All the processes of cooking, including brining, require
> >>supervision. You can make the brines double strength for faster use.
> >>It means that a bit of care is necessary, but what culinary process in
> >>the kitchen doesn't require care?
> >
> > I don't think a higher salt concentration speeds your brining time. It
> > just makes your meat saltier on its periphery.
>
> Pam Anderson researched this whole subject (the same Pam Anderson that
> Kent quoted, but only partially to suit the point he was asserting in
> another post) and said it does speed brining time. Kent says he
> doesn't "think" it speeds brining time.
>
> Res ipsa loquitur.
>
> Pastorio

And, you're a geezer, and a loser. As my late mother would say, "he
won't amount to anything", and at this point, other than shooting your
mouth off in this and other NGs, you haven't.

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
> >
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
>
> I just have to do an interlinear critique of the form Kent employs
> here. It's such a sterling example of various rhetorical devices that
> it bears analysis. Forget the "information" he offers, just look at
> the methods.
>
> >>>Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
> >>>1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
> >>>that tastes salty.
> >>
> >>My extracellular fluid or my intracellular fluid, for that matter, are
> >>irrelevant to the brining process.
> >
> > The amount of extracellar sodium you have determines at which point you
> > will taste salt, as you indicate below.
>
> Note that my statement refers to the physical process of brining. See
> his reply. It refers to tasting.
>
> >>I just tested your theory about tasting salty. I did a teaspoon in a
> >>quart. It didn't taste salty. I noted the rather distant taste of
> >>salt, but it was very mild.
> >
> > .9% NaCl, or close to 1 tsp/quart very closely approximates your
> > extracellular salt concentration. You shouldn't really taste it.
>
> I tasted it; a pragmatic piece of information. He said I shouldn't
> taste it; a theoretical piece of information.
>
> >>It didn't start tasting what I would characterize as salty until I got
> >>to 1 1/2 tablespoons. But that doesn't mean that a brine of that
> >>intensity is too salty for useful brining.
> >
> > 4.5 tsp/quart would be a very mild brine, though not too far removed
> > from Alice Water's recipe.
>
> This time, it's not quite the same thing. Watch. I'm dealing with how
> it tastes and the inefficacy of brining with that weak solution as
> tested by several references. Kent says it's a mild brine (duh) but
> edges in the notion that it's "...not too far from Alice Water's
> recipe." Not too far. Good little slide in there, no? And her name is
> Waters, not Water.
>
> >>>1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
> >>>suitable for brining.
> >>
> >>How it tastes is subjective. The physical effect isn't.
> >
> > At some point your brined meat will taste saltier than you would want it
> > to.
>
> I say that taste is subjective but physics isn't. He says it'll be
> saltier than I want at some point.
>
> >>>2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
> >>>at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
> >>>if you leave it in the brine a long time.
> >>
> >>At a 5% solution it will finally reach an equilibrium and not taste
> >>any saltier no matter how long you leave it in the brine.
> >
> > When you brine in any salt concentration, it takes a very long time for
> > the salt to go from the surface of the turkey, or the pork loin to the
> > center. Frequently you hear people say it was a bit salty on the
> > outside, but nothing inside. Length of brining time or injection eithr
> > directly into the muscle or arterial injection addresses that.
>
> I say that a 5% solution will reach an equilibrium. He says it takes a
> long time to brine.
>
> >>At 7%, it makes it go faster and it will end up saltier, if you let
> >>it. All the processes of cooking, including brining, require
> >>supervision. You can make the brines double strength for faster use.
> >>It means that a bit of care is necessary, but what culinary process in
> >>the kitchen doesn't require care?
> >
> > I don't think a higher salt concentration speeds your brining time. It
> > just makes your meat saltier on its periphery.
>
> Pam Anderson researched this whole subject (the same Pam Anderson that
> Kent quoted, but only partially to suit the point he was asserting in
> another post) and said it does speed brining time. Kent says he
> doesn't "think" it speeds brining time.
>
> Res ipsa loquitur.
>
> Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

> And, you're a geezer, and a loser. As my late mother would say, "he
> won't amount to anything", and at this point, other than shooting your
> mouth off in this and other NGs, you haven't.

<LOL>

You forgot to mention that I've lost a good bit of hair and my guitar
playing isn't as sharp as it was when I practiced 4 hours daily.

Note that your sad little stab above is simply more of the same sort
of pallid assault you've tried in your other posts. How silly of you
to offer as insult something you have no ken of. Here's a general
rule: for an insult to have any meaning, it needs to bear some
resemblance to reality. No charge for the advice, grasshopper.

I just loved it when you replied to my post twice; the above and the
quote below. Both times just blurts of frustrated anger at having been
so utterly devastated. Like this:

>Boy, you are really full of shit!
>Enough said.

Actually, more than enough said to cement your place in the pantheon
of runners-up and second placers, based on unfortunately obvious
observable phenomena.

Pastorio

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kent H. wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>I just have to do an interlinear critique of the form Kent employs
>>here. It's such a sterling example of various rhetorical devices that
>>it bears analysis. Forget the "information" he offers, just look at
>>the methods.
>>
>>
>>>>>Your own extracellular fluid contains .9%NaCl by weight, or very roughly
>>>>>1 tsp table salt/quart of water. Anything more than
>>>>>that tastes salty.
>>>>
>>>>My extracellular fluid or my intracellular fluid, for that matter, are
>>>>irrelevant to the brining process.
>>>
>>>The amount of extracellar sodium you have determines at which point you
>>>will taste salt, as you indicate below.
>>
>>Note that my statement refers to the physical process of brining. See
>>his reply. It refers to tasting.
>>
>>
>>>>I just tested your theory about tasting salty. I did a teaspoon in a
>>>>quart. It didn't taste salty. I noted the rather distant taste of
>>>>salt, but it was very mild.
>>>
>>>.9% NaCl, or close to 1 tsp/quart very closely approximates your
>>>extracellular salt concentration. You shouldn't really taste it.
>>
>>I tasted it; a pragmatic piece of information. He said I shouldn't
>>taste it; a theoretical piece of information.
>>
>>
>>>>It didn't start tasting what I would characterize as salty until I got
>>>>to 1 1/2 tablespoons. But that doesn't mean that a brine of that
>>>>intensity is too salty for useful brining.
>>>
>>>4.5 tsp/quart would be a very mild brine, though not too far removed
>>>from Alice Water's recipe.
>>
>>This time, it's not quite the same thing. Watch. I'm dealing with how
>>it tastes and the inefficacy of brining with that weak solution as
>>tested by several references. Kent says it's a mild brine (duh) but
>>edges in the notion that it's "...not too far from Alice Water's
>>recipe." Not too far. Good little slide in there, no? And her name is
>>Waters, not Water.
>>
>>
>>>>>1 oz or 6 tsp salt/quart tastes quite salty, and is
>>>>>suitable for brining.
>>>>
>>>>How it tastes is subjective. The physical effect isn't.
>>>
>>>At some point your brined meat will taste saltier than you would want it
>>>to.
>>
>>I say that taste is subjective but physics isn't. He says it'll be
>>saltier than I want at some point.
>>
>>
>>>>>2 oz or 12 tsp salt/quart tastes very salty, and
>>>>>at some point will make what you are brining taste too salty, especially
>>>>>if you leave it in the brine a long time.
>>>>
>>>>At a 5% solution it will finally reach an equilibrium and not taste
>>>>any saltier no matter how long you leave it in the brine.
>>>
>>>When you brine in any salt concentration, it takes a very long time for
>>>the salt to go from the surface of the turkey, or the pork loin to the
>>>center. Frequently you hear people say it was a bit salty on the
>>>outside, but nothing inside. Length of brining time or injection eithr
>>>directly into the muscle or arterial injection addresses that.
>>
>>I say that a 5% solution will reach an equilibrium. He says it takes a
>>long time to brine.
>>
>>
>>>>At 7%, it makes it go faster and it will end up saltier, if you let
>>>>it. All the processes of cooking, including brining, require
>>>>supervision. You can make the brines double strength for faster use.
>>>>It means that a bit of care is necessary, but what culinary process in
>>>>the kitchen doesn't require care?
>>>
>>>I don't think a higher salt concentration speeds your brining time. It
>>>just makes your meat saltier on its periphery.
>>
>>Pam Anderson researched this whole subject (the same Pam Anderson that
>>Kent quoted, but only partially to suit the point he was asserting in
>>another post) and said it does speed brining time. Kent says he
>>doesn't "think" it speeds brining time.
>>
>>Res ipsa loquitur.
>>
>>Pastorio