I've heard speculation that kosher poultry needs less brining because of the
salt used in the koshering process. Does anyone have any experience with
this? I am planning on trying the Chez Panisse (sp?) brine that was posted
here recently but do not want to end up with an over-salted bird.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:
> I've heard speculation that kosher poultry needs less brining because of the
> salt used in the koshering process. Does anyone have any experience with
> this? I am planning on trying the Chez Panisse (sp?) brine that was posted
> here recently but do not want to end up with an over-salted bird.
>

A kosher bird is already brined. You're going to have a pretzel on your
hands.

Peg

"Kosher" just means "prepared under rabbinical supervision" (and
although the definition doesn't specifically say so, presumably what the
rabbi is supervising is adherence to the Jewish dietary laws). I've
never heard that brining is part of that, although I'm not a kosher
butcher so I could have missed something. <g>

--
Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995
http://www.SteigerFamily.com
Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a
Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31
Remove "removethis" from address to reply

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:19:22 -0500, Peggy
> > wrote:
>
> >Peter Aitken wrote:
> >> I've heard speculation that kosher poultry needs less brining because
of the
> >> salt used in the koshering process. Does anyone have any experience
with
> >> this? I am planning on trying the Chez Panisse (sp?) brine that was
posted
> >> here recently but do not want to end up with an over-salted bird.
> >>
> >
> >A kosher bird is already brined. You're going to have a pretzel on your
> >hands.
>
> They're not brined. They're rinsed, salted for an hour, and then
> rinsed again. This is not the sam process as brining. Very little,
> if any, salt remains in the processed product.
>
> -sw

I contacted the people at Empire Kosher Poultry and also looked at their web
site where they have a detailed description of the process. Now I am even
more confused! The process is as Steve describes, more or less. THe web site
says the birds may be salty and suggests soaking in plain water for an hour
or so before cooking. The response from a customer service person was that
the turkeys "are already brined" so I should not brine them more. In any
case I will skip the brining and see how it turns out.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Sylvia" > wrote in message
...
> "Kosher" just means "prepared under rabbinical supervision" (and
> although the definition doesn't specifically say so, presumably what the
> rabbi is supervising is adherence to the Jewish dietary laws). I've
> never heard that brining is part of that, although I'm not a kosher
> butcher so I could have missed something. <g>
>

Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
this article explains everything in great detail:
http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/

pavane

"pavane" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Sylvia" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Kosher" just means "prepared under rabbinical supervision" (and
> > although the definition doesn't specifically say so, presumably what the
> > rabbi is supervising is adherence to the Jewish dietary laws). I've
> > never heard that brining is part of that, although I'm not a kosher
> > butcher so I could have missed something. <g>
> >
>
> Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
> this article explains everything in great detail:
> http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/
>
> pavane
>
>

They are not brined (soaked in a salt solution). They are salted - rubbed
with dry salt then rinsed - which is another matter.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
om...
> "pavane" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Sylvia" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Kosher" just means "prepared under rabbinical supervision" (and
> > > although the definition doesn't specifically say so, presumably what
the
> > > rabbi is supervising is adherence to the Jewish dietary laws). I've
> > > never heard that brining is part of that, although I'm not a kosher
> > > butcher so I could have missed something. <g>
> > >
> >
> > Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
> > this article explains everything in great detail:
> > http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/
> >
> > pavane
> >
> >
>
> They are not brined (soaked in a salt solution). They are salted - rubbed
> with dry salt then rinsed - which is another matter.
>

They are moistened then rubbed with dry salt, allowed to
sit for an hour or so in a moist salt-coated environment,
then rinsed off and dried. The effect is virtually the
same although the technique is indeed different. This is
probably not worth a semantic quibble. To all extents
and purposes a kosher bird is considered to be brined.

pavane

In article > , "pavane"
> writes:

>They are moistened then rubbed with dry salt, allowed to
>sit for an hour or so in a moist salt-coated environment,
>then rinsed off and dried. The effect is virtually the
>same although the technique is indeed different. This is
>probably not worth a semantic quibble. To all extents
>and purposes a kosher bird is considered to be brined.

Absolutely.

The brining effect from an hour kashering with pure salt is more pronounced
than from sitting in weak pish vasser brine for days... unless the goal is
fermented meat the Judaic kashering process is far superiour to goyishe brining
in every respect.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

"PENMART01" > wrote in message
...
> In article > , "pavane"
> > writes:
>
> >They are moistened then rubbed with dry salt, allowed to
> >sit for an hour or so in a moist salt-coated environment,
> >then rinsed off and dried. The effect is virtually the
> >same although the technique is indeed different. This is
> >probably not worth a semantic quibble. To all extents
> >and purposes a kosher bird is considered to be brined.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> The brining effect from an hour kashering with pure salt is more
pronounced
> than from sitting in weak pish vasser brine for days... unless the goal is
> fermented meat the Judaic kashering process is far superiour to goyishe
brining
> in every respect.
>


It.....it just gives me the heebie jeebies!

Jack Schlemiel

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:50:02 GMT, "pavane" >
wrote:
>
>They are moistened then rubbed with dry salt, allowed to
>sit for an hour or so in a moist salt-coated environment,
>then rinsed off and dried. The effect is virtually the
>same although the technique is indeed different. This is
>probably not worth a semantic quibble. To all extents
>and purposes a kosher bird is considered to be brined.

No, the purpose of 'koshering' is to draw blood (read moisture) out of
the bird. The moistening prior to salting is to allow for better
adhesion of the salt. It is not enough to add moisture to the bird.

In 'brining', the bird is left in a non saturated salt brine long enough
to establish equilibrium and allow for transfer of moisture in to the
tissue through osmotic transfer.

"Jack Schidt®" writes:

>"PENMART01" wrote:
>"pavane" writes:
>>
>> >They are moistened then rubbed with dry salt, allowed to
>> >sit for an hour or so in a moist salt-coated environment,
>> >then rinsed off and dried. The effect is virtually the
>> >same although the technique is indeed different. This is
>> >probably not worth a semantic quibble. To all extents
>> >and purposes a kosher bird is considered to be brined.
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> The brining effect from an hour kashering with pure salt is more
>pronounced
>> than from sitting in weak pish vasser brine for days... unless the goal is
>> fermented meat the Judaic kashering process is far superiour to goyishe
>brining
>> in every respect.
>>
>
>
>It.....it just gives me the heebie jeebies!
>
>Jack Schlemiel

M-W

hee·bie-jee·bies
noun plural
Etymology: coined by Billy DeBeck €*1942 American cartoonist
Date: 1923
: JITTERS, CREEPS
---


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

<sqwertz@clueless> writes:
>
>Interesting question, though. Is a kosher bird brine-able? Methinks
>the CS person at Empire (incorrectly) states the bird is already
>brined when it fact it's simply salted.

Brined and salted are synonyms... any difference you perceive is merely your
perception. The true question is one of "salinity". And in fact a salt
solution can be made ever saltier (see link below). Only so much salt can be
introduced into animal flesh regardless of method... the kashering method
simply introduces salt at a accelerated rate, that's all. Introduction of
flavoring ingredients is an entirely different topic, having absolutely nothing
whatsoever to do with salting, even though they may be applied
simultaneously... animal flesh can be flavored with no salt... believe it or
not pepper may be added without adding salt.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...6325.Ch.r.html


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

I've had them many times at Jewish friend's affairs. They were never brined
and I found them never needing any additional salting. I did find the
quality of both the turkeys and chickens to be far superior in taste to what
one gets in a grocery store.

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
m...
> I've heard speculation that kosher poultry needs less brining because of
the
> salt used in the koshering process. Does anyone have any experience with
> this? I am planning on trying the Chez Panisse (sp?) brine that was posted
> here recently but do not want to end up with an over-salted bird.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken
>
> Remove the crap from my email address before using.
>
>

In article >,
Sylvia > wrote:

> "Kosher" just means "prepared under rabbinical supervision" (and
> although the definition doesn't specifically say so, presumably what the
> rabbi is supervising is adherence to the Jewish dietary laws). I've
> never heard that brining is part of that, although I'm not a kosher
> butcher so I could have missed something. <g>

No, "kosher" means that the food is in accord with kosher dietary laws.
Rabbinical supervision is merely a way of certifying such.

--
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please mail OT responses only

In article > ,
"pavane" > wrote:

> Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
> this article explains everything in great detail:
> http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/

No, coating with salt is an integral part of koshering fowl (and red
meat, too), not brining.

Brining is done with a mildly salty solution. Water moves by osmotic
pressure from the water-rich brine into the meat, which comparatively
has much less water. The salt seems to enhance this process, though I've
never seen a satisfactory explanation as to why. So brining ADDS
moisture.

Coating the meat with salt, on the other hand, has exactly the OPPOSITE
effect--for the same reason. The meat has more moisture than the layer
of salt, so water is drawn out--again, by osmosis--from the meat to the
surrounding salt.

It is precisely the latter effect that is sought in making the meat
kosher: drawing *out* fluid (blood).

--
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please mail OT responses only

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> In article > ,
> "pavane" > wrote:
>
> > Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
> > this article explains everything in great detail:
> > http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/
>
> No, coating with salt is an integral part of koshering fowl (and red
> meat, too), not brining.
>
> Brining is done with a mildly salty solution. Water moves by osmotic
> pressure from the water-rich brine into the meat, which comparatively
> has much less water. The salt seems to enhance this process, though I've
> never seen a satisfactory explanation as to why. So brining ADDS
> moisture.
>
> Coating the meat with salt, on the other hand, has exactly the OPPOSITE
> effect--for the same reason. The meat has more moisture than the layer
> of salt, so water is drawn out--again, by osmosis--from the meat to the
> surrounding salt.
>
> It is precisely the latter effect that is sought in making the meat
> kosher: drawing *out* fluid (blood).
>

I have yet to get a definitive answer to my original question. The people at
Empire Kosher Poultry say not to because the bird is "already brined." As
has been pointed out, however, brining and salting are different processes
but they may have similar effects. The salt in a brine partially denatures
the proteins in the meat so that more water can be retained (according to
the Cook's Illustrated people). Perhaps salting alone lets the meat retain
more of the existing water so the result is juicier? In any event I have
decided not to brine beause a too-salty turkey would be a lot worse than
one that is not as juicy as it might be. I'll report my results. The more I
read about how kosher poultry are raised and processed, the more appealing
they are to me!

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

<heimdall> writes:

> "pavane" wrote:
>
>> Brining is an integral part of koshering fowl,
>> this article explains everything in great detail:
>> http://www.kashrut.com/articles/Empire_poultry/
>
>No, coating with salt is an integral part of koshering fowl (and red
>meat, too), not brining.

Wrong.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have yet to get a definitive answer to my original question. The people
at
> Empire Kosher Poultry say not to because the bird is "already brined." As
> has been pointed out, however, brining and salting are different processes
> but they may have similar effects. The salt in a brine partially denatures
> the proteins in the meat so that more water can be retained (according to
> the Cook's Illustrated people). Perhaps salting alone lets the meat retain
> more of the existing water so the result is juicier? In any event I have
> decided not to brine beause a too-salty turkey would be a lot worse than
> one that is not as juicy as it might be. I'll report my results. The more
I
> read about how kosher poultry are raised and processed, the more appealing
> they are to me!
>

It seems as if you have your answer, namely that you should not
double-brine (or brine and salt, or salt and brine, or salt and salt)
a turkey. Yes, your original question did get a bit lost, but you can
make up for it by buying another turkey of the same size, non-kosher,
brine it per Chez Panisse or Cooks Illustrated and then report back to
us on the relative saltiness, tenderness, enjoyability and so forth of
the two birds. We would appreciate your doing this for us.

pavane