Hello, for some time now I have been trying to replicate a pizza crust one
would find in a good NY pizzaria. Now I know most of them use high-gluten
flour, but this is not something I have been able to find in grocery stores
(seems to be a whole sale only item) so I started out using bread flour,
figuring its higher protien content, while not as high as high-gluten flour, is
close (bread flour being around 12%, where as high gluten 14% and all purpose
9%).

So, my problem is, I have a terrible time tossing and stretching the dough made
with bread flour, it tears easily and is not very elastic, just plain tough.
So I gave up after many attempts.

Next I tried just using all purpose flour, and the dough this produces is very
easy to toss and stretch, but the lower protien content makes it seem to
produce a denser less chewy crust then what I am looking for.

So, I thought maybe there is another element to the bread flour that isnt in
all purpose or high-fluten that maybe be making the dough tough? So I tried
just adding wheat gluten to all purpose flour (at 1 tsp per cup of flour) and I
end up with the exact same problem as when I use bread flour, tough dough thats
impossible to stretch, toss and shape.

Do I just need to break down and buy my flour 25 lbs at a time so I can get
proper high gluten flour? Or, looking at some pizza industry web sites, I
notice they cold rise their dough for 12 hours, does this somehow make high
gluten flours like bread flour easier to work with then a quicker room temp
rise?

Here is the basic formula I use for making pizza dough:

3 cups flour
1 cup water at 115 degrees F
2 1/4 tsps active dry yeast
1/2 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar for proofing

I have experimented with small amounts of oil as well, after seeing some pizza
industry websites use it in their recipies, while it did not hurt my efforts,
it certainly did not solve the problem.

I primarly have done single rises, since not a single industry website mentions
anything about second rises in their dough making. Though in wondering if this
might be my problem, I have experimented with double rising, and it in no way
helped my problem.

So is the flour type my problem? By the way I primarily use King Author, but
have tried other brands with the same results.

I have been baking wonderful breads for many years with great success, proper
NY style pizza dough is just an obstical I cannot conquor. Rolled out craker
type crusts such as you get with chain pizza "thin crust" and deep dish
sicilian are not a problem, just a problem with making a dough that can be
properly hand tossed.

Any help or suggestions are very welcome.

Russell

1) Knead longer to ensure that the dough is elastic enough to stretch out
without tearing

2) Let the dough rise overnight in the 'fridge for a better flavor

3) Bread flour will work fine; you can make do with AP

4) High gluten flour in 25 lb bags is dirt cheap at Smart and Final; some
Costco's have it at well.

5) http://theartisan.net/pizzabas.htm has all you need to know.





--

Regards

Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"

"Russ Easby" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, for some time now I have been trying to replicate a pizza crust one
> would find in a good NY pizzaria. Now I know most of them use high-gluten
> flour, but this is not something I have been able to find in grocery
stores
> (seems to be a whole sale only item) so I started out using bread flour,
> figuring its higher protien content, while not as high as high-gluten
flour, is
> close (bread flour being around 12%, where as high gluten 14% and all
purpose
> 9%).
>
> So, my problem is, I have a terrible time tossing and stretching the dough
made
> with bread flour, it tears easily and is not very elastic, just plain
tough.
> So I gave up after many attempts.
>
> Next I tried just using all purpose flour, and the dough this produces is
very
> easy to toss and stretch, but the lower protien content makes it seem to
> produce a denser less chewy crust then what I am looking for.
>
> So, I thought maybe there is another element to the bread flour that isnt
in
> all purpose or high-fluten that maybe be making the dough tough? So I
tried
> just adding wheat gluten to all purpose flour (at 1 tsp per cup of flour)
and I
> end up with the exact same problem as when I use bread flour, tough dough
thats
> impossible to stretch, toss and shape.
>
> Do I just need to break down and buy my flour 25 lbs at a time so I can
get
> proper high gluten flour? Or, looking at some pizza industry web sites, I
> notice they cold rise their dough for 12 hours, does this somehow make
high
> gluten flours like bread flour easier to work with then a quicker room
temp
> rise?
>
> Here is the basic formula I use for making pizza dough:
>
> 3 cups flour
> 1 cup water at 115 degrees F
> 2 1/4 tsps active dry yeast
> 1/2 tsp salt
> 1/4 tsp sugar for proofing
>
> I have experimented with small amounts of oil as well, after seeing some
pizza
> industry websites use it in their recipies, while it did not hurt my
efforts,
> it certainly did not solve the problem.
>
> I primarly have done single rises, since not a single industry website
mentions
> anything about second rises in their dough making. Though in wondering if
this
> might be my problem, I have experimented with double rising, and it in no
way
> helped my problem.
>
> So is the flour type my problem? By the way I primarily use King Author,
but
> have tried other brands with the same results.
>
> I have been baking wonderful breads for many years with great success,
proper
> NY style pizza dough is just an obstical I cannot conquor. Rolled out
craker
> type crusts such as you get with chain pizza "thin crust" and deep dish
> sicilian are not a problem, just a problem with making a dough that can be
> properly hand tossed.
>
> Any help or suggestions are very welcome.
>
> Russell

Russ Easby wrote:
> Hello, for some time now I have been trying to replicate a pizza crust one
> would find in a good NY pizzaria. Now I know most of them use high-gluten
> flour, but this is not something I have been able to find in grocery stores
> (seems to be a whole sale only item) so I started out using bread flour,
> figuring its higher protien content, while not as high as high-gluten flour, is
> close (bread flour being around 12%, where as high gluten 14% and all purpose
> 9%).
>
> So, my problem is, I have a terrible time tossing and stretching the dough made
> with bread flour, it tears easily and is not very elastic, just plain tough.
> So I gave up after many attempts.
>
> Next I tried just using all purpose flour, and the dough this produces is very
> easy to toss and stretch, but the lower protien content makes it seem to
> produce a denser less chewy crust then what I am looking for.
>
> So, I thought maybe there is another element to the bread flour that isnt in
> all purpose or high-fluten that maybe be making the dough tough? So I tried
> just adding wheat gluten to all purpose flour (at 1 tsp per cup of flour) and I
> end up with the exact same problem as when I use bread flour, tough dough thats
> impossible to stretch, toss and shape.
>
> Do I just need to break down and buy my flour 25 lbs at a time so I can get
> proper high gluten flour? Or, looking at some pizza industry web sites, I
> notice they cold rise their dough for 12 hours, does this somehow make high
> gluten flours like bread flour easier to work with then a quicker room temp
> rise?
>
> Here is the basic formula I use for making pizza dough:
>
> 3 cups flour
> 1 cup water at 115 degrees F
> 2 1/4 tsps active dry yeast
> 1/2 tsp salt
> 1/4 tsp sugar for proofing
>
> I have experimented with small amounts of oil as well, after seeing some pizza
> industry websites use it in their recipies, while it did not hurt my efforts,
> it certainly did not solve the problem.
>
> I primarly have done single rises, since not a single industry website mentions
> anything about second rises in their dough making. Though in wondering if this
> might be my problem, I have experimented with double rising, and it in no way
> helped my problem.
>
> So is the flour type my problem? By the way I primarily use King Author, but
> have tried other brands with the same results.
>
> I have been baking wonderful breads for many years with great success, proper
> NY style pizza dough is just an obstical I cannot conquor. Rolled out craker
> type crusts such as you get with chain pizza "thin crust" and deep dish
> sicilian are not a problem, just a problem with making a dough that can be
> properly hand tossed.
>
> Any help or suggestions are very welcome.
>
> Russell


I use 2 cups of bread flour, 1 cup of warm water, 1 tsp. salt, 1 tsp. driy
yeast, and 1 Tbsp. olive oil or bacon grease. I sometimes add a pich of
sugar, but usually not. I don't stir the flour before I measure it, so it
is probably a generous 2 cups. (I really should weigh it next time.)
Still, that is a much higher hydration than your recipe.

I don't toss my pizza dough; you might have to add a little more oil to
make the dough less springy, but then it will be too soft and sticky so
you'll flour its surface and flour your hands before you work it.

Hopes this helps,
Bob

On 29 Nov 2003 01:27:31 GMT, (Russ Easby)
wrote:
>
> Here is the basic formula I use for making pizza dough:
>
> 3 cups flour
> 1 cup water at 115 degrees F
> 2 1/4 tsps active dry yeast
> 1/2 tsp salt
> 1/4 tsp sugar for proofing
>
> I have experimented with small amounts of oil as well, after seeing some pizza
> industry websites use it in their recipies, while it did not hurt my efforts,
> it certainly did not solve the problem.
>

I eyeball everything, but it your dough isn't sticky you're
getting there.

* You don't need that amount of yeast for just 3 cups of
flour... but if that's what's in a package of yeast, go for
it.

* I always add a big gulg of EVOO too.

* Activate the gulten by beating a small amount of flour
with your liquid (enough to make a thickish slurry) for a
minute or two.

> I primarly have done single rises, since not a single industry website mentions
> anything about second rises in their dough making. Though in wondering if this
> might be my problem, I have experimented with double rising, and it in no way
> helped my problem.

Rising time depends on how much time you have between making
the dough and making pizza.
>
> So is the flour type my problem?

Do you mean bread or not bread flour?

> By the way I primarily use King Author, but
> have tried other brands with the same results.
>
> I have been baking wonderful breads for many years with great success, proper
> NY style pizza dough is just an obstical I cannot conquor. Rolled out craker
> type crusts such as you get with chain pizza "thin crust" and deep dish
> sicilian are not a problem, just a problem with making a dough that can be
> properly hand tossed.

Are you a pizza tossing expert?
Perhaps you need to practice.