When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are
dehydrated. Put salt on a bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works
because nature wants to make the salt concentration the same on both sides
of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is saltier
than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way around.
The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey
more hydrated and saltier?

Wayne
Confused old biology student

"Wayne Jones" > wrote in message
.cable.rogers.com...
> When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are
> dehydrated. Put salt on a bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works
> because nature wants to make the salt concentration the same on both sides
> of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is saltier
> than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way
around.
> The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.
>
> Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the
turkey
> more hydrated and saltier?
>

Turkey and other meat is mostly protein. Salt acts on the protein molecules
to change their shape so that more water molecules can be trapped within and
between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis which as you pointed out would
tend to remove water from the meat.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

In rec.food.cooking, Wayne Jones > wrote:
> When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are
> dehydrated. Put salt on a bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works
> because nature wants to make the salt concentration the same on both sides
> of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is saltier
> than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way around.
> The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.

> Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey
> more hydrated and saltier?

You know the answer already.
The cell interior is at a higher concentration than the brine.

And your confusion WRT "saltier" is appropriate, given that this is an
old wive's tale, or a result of a failure to rinse the exterior after
brining. But you knew that too, given the last sentence of your first
paragraph.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In rec.food.cooking, Peter Aitken > wrote:

> Salt acts on the protein molecules
> to change their shape so that more water molecules can be trapped within and
> between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis which as you pointed out would
> tend to remove water from the meat.


I've never heard that. Do you have a cite to more infomation?

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

> wrote in message
...
> In rec.food.cooking, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
> > Salt acts on the protein molecules
> > to change their shape so that more water molecules can be trapped within
and
> > between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis which as you pointed out
would
> > tend to remove water from the meat.
>
>
> I've never heard that. Do you have a cite to more infomation?
>

It is described in detail in "The Best Recipe" cookbook and probably also on
the Cooks Illustrated web site.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

> wrote in message
...
> In rec.food.cooking, Wayne Jones > wrote:
> > When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are
> > dehydrated. Put salt on a bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works
> > because nature wants to make the salt concentration the same on both
sides
> > of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is
saltier
> > than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way
around.
> > The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.
>
> > Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the
turkey
> > more hydrated and saltier?
>
> You know the answer already.
> The cell interior is at a higher concentration than the brine.
>
> And your confusion WRT "saltier" is appropriate, given that this is an
> old wive's tale, or a result of a failure to rinse the exterior after
> brining. But you knew that too, given the last sentence of your first
> paragraph.
>
> --

If that were true then soaking in pure water would work better than soaking
in brine. See my other post on this topic.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

On 2003-12-10, Wayne Jones > wrote:

> Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey
> more hydrated and saltier?

I asked this same question for years. If you read all the so called
experts (including the dolts at Cooking Illustrated), they all repeat
the same old misinformation about how the meat absorbs the brine by
osmosis, exactly contradicting the basic mechanism of osmosis, as you
point out. But, do not dispair. I finally found someone who explains
exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact,
extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not
lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than non
brined.

http://www.cbbqa.com/notes/SaltBrining.html

nb

notbob wrote:

> On 2003-12-10, Wayne Jones > wrote:
>
>
>>Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey
>>more hydrated and saltier?
>
>
> I asked this same question for years. If you read all the so called
> experts (including the dolts at Cooking Illustrated), they all repeat
> the same old misinformation about how the meat absorbs the brine by
> osmosis, exactly contradicting the basic mechanism of osmosis, as you
> point out. But, do not dispair. I finally found someone who explains
> exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact,
> extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not
> lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than non
> brined.

Sorry. That's not what the article says. The net effect is that water
is taken up, so a brined bird weighs more coming out of the brine than
when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact, lost in cooking.

Pastorio

> http://www.cbbqa.com/notes/SaltBrining.html
>
> nb

On 2003-12-11, Bob Pastorio > wrote:
> notbob wrote:


>> exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact,
>> extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not
>> lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than non
>> brined.
>
> Sorry. That's not what the article says.

Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect
to osmosis.

[...]

"Again -- this is critically important to an understanding of brining
-- if the percentage concentration of sodium on the outside of a cell
is higher than the concentration of sodium on the inside of a cell,
then free water molecules will pass from inside the cell, through the
cell membrane, and into the intracellular space."

[...]

"This cross linking of protein and water molecules means the cells will
not break up and lose their moisture at the normal temperature of
unbrined meat -- ..."

[...]

"As a further result of this increase in temperature, the meat will
cook but still retain the moisture that would normally have been lost."


> The net effect is that water
> is taken up, so a brined bird weighs more coming out of the brine than
> when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact, lost in cooking.

This water is absorbed by diffusion into the intercellular spaces. It
is not osmosis.

"Therefore, the water added by brining will not remain during cooking
to make the meat moister."

This is because we are not eating intercellular spaces, we are eating
muscle cells.

nb

notbob wrote:

> On 2003-12-11, Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>
>>notbob wrote:
>
>>>exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact,
>>>extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not
>>>lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than non
>>>brined.
>>
>>Sorry. That's not what the article says.
>
> Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect
> to osmosis.

You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what
remains stays in the meat (is not lost) through cooking. That sounds
like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining. If you
meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.

There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for
the effects of brining. Alton Brown has a different explanation as
does Shirley Corriher. They assert that it isn't just the water that
crosses the cell membranes; that solutes migrate as well. Not just to
intercellular locations, but into cells.

I can't post that stuff tonight, sorry. Getting up too early to stick
around. Maybe tomorrow night when I get back.

Pastorio


> [...]
>
> "Again -- this is critically important to an understanding of brining
> -- if the percentage concentration of sodium on the outside of a cell
> is higher than the concentration of sodium on the inside of a cell,
> then free water molecules will pass from inside the cell, through the
> cell membrane, and into the intracellular space."
>
> [...]
>
> "This cross linking of protein and water molecules means the cells will
> not break up and lose their moisture at the normal temperature of
> unbrined meat -- ..."
>
> [...]
>
> "As a further result of this increase in temperature, the meat will
> cook but still retain the moisture that would normally have been lost."
>
>
>
>>The net effect is that water
>>is taken up, so a brined bird weighs more coming out of the brine than
>>when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact, lost in cooking.
>
>
> This water is absorbed by diffusion into the intercellular spaces. It
> is not osmosis.
>
> "Therefore, the water added by brining will not remain during cooking
> to make the meat moister."
>
> This is because we are not eating intercellular spaces, we are eating
> muscle cells.
>
> nb

On 2003-12-12, Bob Pastorio > wrote:

>> Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect
>> to osmosis.
>
> You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what
> remains stays in the meat (is not lost) through cooking. That sounds
> like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining. If you
> meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.
>
> There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for
> the effects of brining.

It's the only one that makes sense. Osmosis states that on two sides
of a membrane, the solution will move from the lower concentration of
solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher concentration. Well,
if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is
going to move across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the
brine. The net effect would be some dehydration of the meat (see
subject line).

Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on
the misconception that moisture (and salt!) moves across the membrane into the
cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.

For example:

"In other words when a piece of chicken, for example, is placed in a
brine solution, osmosis will begin as nature tries to equalize the
salt/water content of the meat and the brine. It's as if the salt
acts as a key that "unlocks" the cells of the meat allowing the water
to enter." -- Big Daddy

"Second, the liquid that gets loaded into the meat by osmosis makes
the meat juicy." --Kip Glass - Autumn Olive Farms

"Brining works via the processes of osmosis and the tendency for
adjacent mediums to equalize their level of salinity. In a nutshell,
the turkey will absorb some of the salt water." --Mark Vogel

"Imagine that you have a salt solution and you immerse something like
a turkey in it. Immediately osmosis kicks in and the salt begins to
migrate into the meat (the semi-permeable membrane)." --Joan Ash

Oooooohh! ...wrong answer!

Let's check that osmosis thing one more time:

"The key to remember about osmosis is that water flows from the
solution with the lower solute concentration into the solution with
higher solute concentration."

Now, if the meat to be brined was placed in just plain water
....bingo!... water should be absorbed into the cells, as they have some
salt content, right? Sure, it's minor, but it's higher that plain water.
And, if you have dehydrated cells (dry meat) and they are put in a
solution of equal concentration of solute, the water will
move across the membrane to hydrate the dry cells. But, we're putting the
meat in a high salt brine. That's the catch! There is no way the
higher concentration salt brine is going to move across a cell
membrane into a lower concentration cell. The salt is not going to
cross that membrane at all, no matter what the concentration.

Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've
found. It's the only one that isn't trying to convince me high salt
brine is moving across a membrane into a lower concentration cell, as
I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some
problems with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to
dispute it. If you can offer a better explanation, I'm all ears.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
news:JSnCb.521052$Fm2.503253@attbi_s04...
> On 2003-12-12, Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>
> >> Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect
> >> to osmosis.
> >
> > You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what
> > remains stays in the meat (is not lost) through cooking. That sounds
> > like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining. If you
> > meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.
> >
> > There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for
> > the effects of brining.
>
> It's the only one that makes sense. Osmosis states that on two sides
> of a membrane, the solution will move from the lower concentration of
> solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher concentration. Well,
> if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is
> going to move across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the
> brine. The net effect would be some dehydration of the meat (see
> subject line).
>
> Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on
> the misconception that moisture (and salt!) moves across the membrane into
the
> cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.
>
> For example:
>
> "In other words when a piece of chicken, for example, is placed in a
> brine solution, osmosis will begin as nature tries to equalize the
> salt/water content of the meat and the brine. It's as if the salt
> acts as a key that "unlocks" the cells of the meat allowing the water
> to enter." -- Big Daddy
>
> "Second, the liquid that gets loaded into the meat by osmosis makes
> the meat juicy." --Kip Glass - Autumn Olive Farms
>
> "Brining works via the processes of osmosis and the tendency for
> adjacent mediums to equalize their level of salinity. In a nutshell,
> the turkey will absorb some of the salt water." --Mark Vogel
>
> "Imagine that you have a salt solution and you immerse something like
> a turkey in it. Immediately osmosis kicks in and the salt begins to
> migrate into the meat (the semi-permeable membrane)." --Joan Ash
>
> Oooooohh! ...wrong answer!
>
> Let's check that osmosis thing one more time:
>
> "The key to remember about osmosis is that water flows from the
> solution with the lower solute concentration into the solution with
> higher solute concentration."
>
> Now, if the meat to be brined was placed in just plain water
> ...bingo!... water should be absorbed into the cells, as they have some
> salt content, right? Sure, it's minor, but it's higher that plain water.
> And, if you have dehydrated cells (dry meat) and they are put in a
> solution of equal concentration of solute, the water will
> move across the membrane to hydrate the dry cells. But, we're putting the
> meat in a high salt brine. That's the catch! There is no way the
> higher concentration salt brine is going to move across a cell
> membrane into a lower concentration cell. The salt is not going to
> cross that membrane at all, no matter what the concentration.
>
> Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've
> found. It's the only one that isn't trying to convince me high salt
> brine is moving across a membrane into a lower concentration cell, as
> I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some
> problems with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to
> dispute it. If you can offer a better explanation, I'm all ears.
>
> nb
>

Your explanation assues that salt will not move across the cell membrane.
This is not true. In living cells the membrane has a low permeability to
salt. Sodium chloride concentration is a lot higher outside the cell than
inside, so salt slowly leaks into the cell. Living cells have pumps that
shove it back out to maintain equilibirium. In dead tissue - i.e., meat -
the pumps are no longer operating but the membrane still has some
permeability to salt. This means that salt from the brining liquid *will*
move into cells as long as the brining liquid has a higher salt
concentration than the intracellular fluid. Likewise if you soak the meat in
plain water salt will leak out of the cells (and water in). Now I cannot
tell you how much this contributes to the effects of brining - perhaps it is
minor compared with the changes in protein structure that are known to be
involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is dead
wrong.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

In article >, "Peter Aitken"
> writes:

>"notbob" > wrote in message
>news:JSnCb.521052$Fm2.503253@attbi_s04...
>> On 2003-12-12, Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>>
>> >> Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect
>> >> to osmosis.
>> >
>> > You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what
>> > remains stays in the meat (is not lost) through cooking. That sounds
>> > like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining. If you
>> > meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.
>> >
>> > There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for
>> > the effects of brining.
>>
>> It's the only one that makes sense. Osmosis states that on two sides
>> of a membrane, the solution will move from the lower concentration of
>> solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher concentration. Well,
>> if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is
>> going to move across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the
>> brine. The net effect would be some dehydration of the meat (see
>> subject line).
>>
>> Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on
>> the misconception that moisture (and salt!) moves across the membrane into
>the
>> cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> "In other words when a piece of chicken, for example, is placed in a
>> brine solution, osmosis will begin as nature tries to equalize the
>> salt/water content of the meat and the brine. It's as if the salt
>> acts as a key that "unlocks" the cells of the meat allowing the water
>> to enter." -- Big Daddy
>>
>> "Second, the liquid that gets loaded into the meat by osmosis makes
>> the meat juicy." --Kip Glass - Autumn Olive Farms
>>
>> "Brining works via the processes of osmosis and the tendency for
>> adjacent mediums to equalize their level of salinity. In a nutshell,
>> the turkey will absorb some of the salt water." --Mark Vogel
>>
>> "Imagine that you have a salt solution and you immerse something like
>> a turkey in it. Immediately osmosis kicks in and the salt begins to
>> migrate into the meat (the semi-permeable membrane)." --Joan Ash
>>
>> Oooooohh! ...wrong answer!
>>
>> Let's check that osmosis thing one more time:
>>
>> "The key to remember about osmosis is that water flows from the
>> solution with the lower solute concentration into the solution with
>> higher solute concentration."
>>
>> Now, if the meat to be brined was placed in just plain water
>> ...bingo!... water should be absorbed into the cells, as they have some
>> salt content, right? Sure, it's minor, but it's higher that plain water.
>> And, if you have dehydrated cells (dry meat) and they are put in a
>> solution of equal concentration of solute, the water will
>> move across the membrane to hydrate the dry cells. But, we're putting the
>> meat in a high salt brine. That's the catch! There is no way the
>> higher concentration salt brine is going to move across a cell
>> membrane into a lower concentration cell. The salt is not going to
>> cross that membrane at all, no matter what the concentration.
>>
>> Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've
>> found. It's the only one that isn't trying to convince me high salt
>> brine is moving across a membrane into a lower concentration cell, as
>> I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some
>> problems with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to
>> dispute it. If you can offer a better explanation, I'm all ears.
>>
>> nb
>>
>
>Your explanation assues that salt will not move across the cell membrane.
>This is not true. In living cells the membrane has a low permeability to
>salt. Sodium chloride concentration is a lot higher outside the cell than
>inside, so salt slowly leaks into the cell. Living cells have pumps that
>shove it back out to maintain equilibirium. In dead tissue - i.e., meat -
>the pumps are no longer operating but the membrane still has some
>permeability to salt. This means that salt from the brining liquid *will*
>move into cells as long as the brining liquid has a higher salt
>concentration than the intracellular fluid. Likewise if you soak the meat in
>plain water salt will leak out of the cells (and water in). Now I cannot
>tell you how much this contributes to the effects of brining - perhaps it is
>minor compared with the changes in protein structure that are known to be
>involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is dead
>wrong.

Yoose all is assuming that animal cell membrane is equally permeable in both
directions, not.... otherwise what little men-brains yoose all have would have
leaked out long ago.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:

> involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is dead
> wrong.

References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your claim.
Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
> On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
> > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is
dead
> > wrong.
>
> References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your
claim.
> Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
>
> nb

"Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby
Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when teaching physiology to
students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general physiology or
neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for over
20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with
using the web as a source for scientific and technical information - there's
so much garbage out there.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "notbob" > wrote in message
> news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
> > On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
> >
> > > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is
> dead
> > > wrong.
> >
> > References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your
> claim.
> > Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
> >
> > nb
>
> "Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby
> Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when teaching physiology to
> students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general physiology or
> neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for over
> 20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with
> using the web as a source for scientific and technical information - there's
> so much garbage out there.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken
>

The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move across
the cell membrane from a higher to a lower concentration...

I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)

Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the membrane
to hydrate the meat rather than the water moving from the meat to dilute
the brine, hence drying the meat out more? Especially since NaCl is a
larger molecule than H2O? (unless my chemistry is off, which is
possible... <G>)

I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist, I'd
like to understand why... <G>

(kinda like that stoopid coulter video that I have to memorize on flow
cytometry before January 19th when I fly to Miama for that seminar... :-P)

K.


--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > "notbob" > wrote in message
> > news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
> > > On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
> > >
> > > > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes
is
> > dead
> > > > wrong.
> > >
> > > References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to
your
> > claim.
> > > Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
> > >
> > > nb
> >
> > "Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby
> > Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when teaching physiology
to
> > students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general physiology or
> > neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for
over
> > 20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with
> > using the web as a source for scientific and technical information -
there's
> > so much garbage out there.
> >
> > --
> > Peter Aitken
> >
>
> The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move across
> the cell membrane from a higher to a lower concentration...
>
> I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)
>
> Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the membrane
> to hydrate the meat rather than the water moving from the meat to dilute
> the brine, hence drying the meat out more? Especially since NaCl is a
> larger molecule than H2O? (unless my chemistry is off, which is
> possible... <G>)
>
> I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist, I'd
> like to understand why... <G>
>

As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat
so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can
cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is
left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the brining
fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long
the meat ends up too salty.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

notbob wrote:

> On 2003-12-12, Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>
>>You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what
>>remains stays in the meat (is not lost) through cooking. That sounds
>>like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining. If you
>>meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.
>>
>>There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for
>>the effects of brining.
>
> It's the only one that makes sense.

There are a few unquestioned assumptions in the explanation. Like that
it's only osmosis that's at work and no other conditions obtain. That
cell walls are perfect semi-permeable membranes. The dead animal cells
behave the same way as live ones. That diffusion isn't also in there
somewhere serving to permit/force solutes into the cells. That the
salt solution doesn't change the nature of the now-dead cell walls so
as to permit inflow of solution. Summary: that salinity is the only
index and that osmosis is the only mechanism.

> Osmosis states that on two sides
> of a membrane, the solution will move from the lower concentration of
> solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher concentration. Well,
> if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is
> going to move across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the
> brine. The net effect would be some dehydration of the meat (see
> subject line).
>
> Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on
> the misconception that moisture (and salt!) moves across the membrane into the
> cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.

Osmosis in it's purest form doesn't work that way. The explanation
assumes laboratory circumstances. And it assumes that only the one
process is at work.

The real-world reality is that the flavor of the meat is also changed
in the process of brining. I've experimented with brines that contain
dissolved solids, traces of oils added (citrus oils, essential oils of
herbs, emulsified oils), salt-free (based on sugars), colored solutes
(food coloring) and a few other variations that included more than one
major variable. In every case, the brines were taken up and
significantly affected the properties of final result (the oils a bit
less so, but still there).

If only water can cross the cell wall, then all that flavor change has
to be accounted for by interstitial/intercellular water. But according
to the osmosis theory as elaborated, that water is lost in cooking. It
might be conjectured that whatever is left behind in the purge that
occurs in cooking is the only real flavor alteration, but that demands
to ask about degree of brining and the different results from duration
of brine and concentration.

The other real-world fact is that meats can be overbrined. If left too
long, even in a weak brine, the meat will be salty. If left too long
in a sugar-containing brine, the meat will taste and bite like cured
ham. If brined in an acid brine, the texture meat will be
significantly changed. That can't merely be attributed to
intercellular storage of the brining solution. The way the meats will
cook, cut and chew is noticeably different. That has to be the
composition of the cells being changed.

Long-brined foods like cured pork and beef products undergo profound
physical changes in the process of curing. No one will confuse corned
beef with fresh beef, either in taste, texture or appearance. Or cured
ham with fresh pork.

If living cells were impermeable to solutes, they'd contain water and
nothing else. They don't, as they regulate what can and cannot come
in. Dead cells have no regulatory mechanisms beyond the properties of
the cell wall to limit inflow or outflow of solutes.

> Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've
> found. It's the only one that isn't trying to convince me high salt
> brine is moving across a membrane into a lower concentration cell, as
> I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some
> problems with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to
> dispute it. If you can offer a better explanation, I'm all ears.

I think the explanations are too simplistic; too
laboratory-constrained. They don't account for many of the alterations
that actually happen in the meat. Attributing the entire process only
to osmosis makes for a nice, easy answer to the question, but it
glosses over some of the effects that people see. And taste. And chew.

Pastorio

On 2003-12-13, Peter Aitken > wrote:

> As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
> with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat
> so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
> osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
> membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can
> cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is
> left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the brining
> fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long
> the meat ends up too salty.

"As I understand it...". "Perhaps...".

Thank you for not clearing that up.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
news:4zKCb.40620$8y1.171556@attbi_s52...
> On 2003-12-13, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
> > As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
> > with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the
meat
> > so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
> > osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not
cross
> > membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water
can
> > cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat
is
> > left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the
brining
> > fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too
long
> > the meat ends up too salty.
>
> "As I understand it...". "Perhaps...".
>
> Thank you for not clearing that up.
>
> nb

If you cannot understand a clear and accurate explanation, guess where the
fault lies? I bet you 50 cents that you will continue believing the nonsense
you posted about osmosis. Congrats - another oppotunity to learn something
passed up.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:03:31 -0600, Katra >
wrote:

>(kinda like that stoopid coulter video that I have to memorize on flow
>cytometry before January 19th when I fly to Miama for that seminar... :-P)
>
>K.
ann coulter is branching out?

your pal,
karl

notbob wrote:

> On 2003-12-13, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
>
>>As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
>>with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat
>>so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
>>osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
>>membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can
>>cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is
>>left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the brining
>>fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long
>>the meat ends up too salty.
>
> "As I understand it...". "Perhaps...".
>
> Thank you for not clearing that up.

C'mon, nb. You said your explanation "made the most sense" and that
you still had some problems with it. Sounds like "As I understand
it..." and "Perhaps..." from you as well.

As it ought to be since no one has offered an explanation that takes
all eventualities into full consideration.

Pastorio

On 2003-12-14, Bob Pastorio > wrote:

> C'mon, nb. You said your explanation "made the most sense" and that
> you still had some problems with it. Sounds like "As I understand
> it..." and "Perhaps..." from you as well.

I never made the brag, "I *do* know what I'm talking about".

nb

On 2003-12-13, Peter Aitken > wrote:
> "notbob" > wrote in message
> news:4zKCb.40620$8y1.171556@attbi_s52...
>> On 2003-12-13, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>>
>> > As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
>> > with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the
> meat
>> > so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
>> > osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not
> cross
>> > membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water
> can
>> > cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat
> is
>> > left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the
> brining
>> > fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too
> long
>> > the meat ends up too salty.
>>
>> "As I understand it...". "Perhaps...".
>>
>> Thank you for not clearing that up.
>>
>> nb
>
> If you cannot understand a clear and accurate explanation, guess where the
> fault lies? I bet you 50 cents that you will continue believing the nonsense
> you posted about osmosis. Congrats - another oppotunity to learn something
> passed up.

Your explanation is not clear. Your use of "Perhaps..." gives the
impression you're not too clear on it either. You claim a mechanism
other than osmosis is at work, but don't elaborate. You give me a
reference of a $90 book on living tissue I don't own and resort to
impugning my abilities rather than provide an explanation I am more
than willing to listen to. Not to worry. I'll research it myself.

nb

In article >, Peter Aitken
wrote:

> As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
> with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat
> so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
> osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
> membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can
> cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is
> left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the brining
> fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long
> the meat ends up too salty.

In the recent issue of Cooks Illustrated there is an article,
"Why Brining Works" -- The article starts with a statement that many
have attributed the added juiciness of a brined chicken to osmosis, and
the author decided to test this explanation. The author reasoned that
pure unsalted water should add moisture as well as a brine, because water
alone has the highest possible water concentration (100%). So, one chicken
was taken from the package and not treated, one chicken was soaked in
unsalted water, and another chicken was soaked in a brine. Both of the
chickens soaked gained 6% by weight. However, during roasting, the chicken
taken straight from the package lost 18% of its original weight, the
chicken soaked in unsalted water lost 12% of its presoak weight, and the
brined chicken only lost 7% of its presoak weight.

Conclusion: Water *and* Salt are playing a crucial role by aiding in the
retention of water.

Table salt is made up of two ions, sodium and chlorine, that are oppositely
charged. Protein are large molecules that contain a mosaic of charges.
When proteins are placed in a solution containing salt, they readjust their
shape to accommodate the opposing charges from the salt ions. The
rearrangement of the protein in the meat compromises the structural
integrity of the meat, reducing its overall toughness. It also creates
gaps that fill up with water, and this water is less likely to evaporate
during cooking. The result is meat that is both juicy and tender.

- Cooks Illustrated, January & February 2004, page 11

--
Clay Irving >
I expect nothing. I fear no one. I am free.
- Nikos Kazantzakis

Clay Irving writes:

>The result is meat that is both juicy and tender.

But tastes like Oscar Mayer mystery meat.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> > >
> > > "notbob" > wrote in message
> > > news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
> > > > On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes
> is
> > > dead
> > > > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to
> your
> > > claim.
> > > > Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > nb
> > >
> > > "Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby
> > > Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when teaching physiology
> to
> > > students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general physiology or
> > > neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for
> over
> > > 20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with
> > > using the web as a source for scientific and technical information -
> there's
> > > so much garbage out there.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Aitken
> > >
> >
> > The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move across
> > the cell membrane from a higher to a lower concentration...
> >
> > I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)
> >
> > Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the membrane
> > to hydrate the meat rather than the water moving from the meat to dilute
> > the brine, hence drying the meat out more? Especially since NaCl is a
> > larger molecule than H2O? (unless my chemistry is off, which is
> > possible... <G>)
> >
> > I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist, I'd
> > like to understand why... <G>
> >
>
> As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do
> with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat
> so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is jucier. My post on
> osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
> membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can
> cross membranes, although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is
> left in the brine long enough would be an equilibrium between the brining
> fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long
> the meat ends up too salty.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken


Ok, so, my final question is.....

if you know how to cover and/or baste a turkey, and cook at the correct
time and temperature.....

why do you brine a turkey at all when you know that a higher sodium
content is bad, and a properly cooked/basted bird is utterly
delicious??? :-d

I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra

Katra wrote:

> I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
> successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
> brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!

The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg wrote:
>
> Katra wrote:
>
> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
> > successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
> > brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
>
> The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
> using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
> not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
> my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com


Good answer. :-)

K.


--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra

Katra > wrote in
:

>
>
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>>
>> "Katra" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter Aitken wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "notbob" > wrote in message
>> > > news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
>> > > > On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across
>> > > > > membranes
>> is
>> > > dead
>> > > > > wrong.
>> > > >
>> > > > References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter
>> > > > to
>> your
>> > > claim.
>> > > > Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
>> > > >
>> > > > nb
>> > >
>> > > "Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition,
>> > > Mosby Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when
>> > > teaching physiology
>> to
>> > > students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general
>> > > physiology or neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a
>> > > researcher in this field for
>> over
>> > > 20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the
>> > > problem with using the web as a source for scientific and
>> > > technical information -
>> there's
>> > > so much garbage out there.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Peter Aitken
>> > >
>> >
>> > The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move
>> > across the cell membrane from a higher to a lower concentration...
>> >
>> > I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)
>> >
>> > Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the
>> > membrane to hydrate the meat rather than the water moving from the
>> > meat to dilute the brine, hence drying the meat out more?
>> > Especially since NaCl is a larger molecule than H2O? (unless my
>> > chemistry is off, which is possible... <G>)
>> >
>> > I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist,
>> > I'd like to understand why... <G>
>> >
>>
>> As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to
>> do with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins
>> in the meat so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is
>> jucier. My post on osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea
>> that salt does not cross membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case,
>> since both salt and water can cross membranes, although slowly, the
>> end result of osmosis if the meat is left in the brine long enough
>> would be an equilibrium between the brining fluid and the
>> intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long the
>> meat ends up too salty.
>>
>> --
>> Peter Aitken
>
>
> Ok, so, my final question is.....
>
> if you know how to cover and/or baste a turkey, and cook at the
> correct time and temperature.....
>
> why do you brine a turkey at all when you know that a higher sodium
> content is bad, and a properly cooked/basted bird is utterly
> delicious??? :-d
>
> I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a
> few successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol
> of brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
>
> K.
>

I find it very little trouble to mix up a brine and immerse a turkey for 24
hrs. Takes less then 15 minutes prep and execution time. This method allows
for moister meat and for some flavour...Try adding lime or orange juice to
the brine...

If you are happy without brining why all this folderol from you? I don't
have to convince you for me to be happy.

Some like warm apple pie and ice cream others just apple pie and again
still others room temp apple pie with a sharp cheese. We all have differing
tastes and attitudes. And frankly I don't care how it works, but do enjoy
that it works. I find it works well with pork as well. If it tastes salty
to you perhaps you use too strong a brine or are more sensitive to the
taste of salt than I.
--
And the beet goes on! (or under)
-me just a while ago

"Reg" > wrote in message
. com...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
> > successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
> > brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
>
> The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
> using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
> not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
> my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

That's it in a nutshell - brined tastes better. Plus a properly brined bird
is not salty - you might add a little less salt at the table but the total
intake will not be greater.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Katra'inka writes:
>
>I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
>successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
>brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!

What's to 'splain... they can't ****ing cook... so they douche everything in
lotsa salt, makes turkey taste like Oscar Mayer mystery meat.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

hahabogus wrote:
>
> Katra > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> >
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> >>
> >> "Katra" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > "notbob" > wrote in message
> >> > > news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...
> >> > > > On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > involved - but your claim that salt does not move across
> >> > > > > membranes
> >> is
> >> > > dead
> >> > > > > wrong.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter
> >> > > > to
> >> your
> >> > > claim.
> >> > > > Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > nb
> >> > >
> >> > > "Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition,
> >> > > Mosby Press, 1988. This is the book I used as a text when
> >> > > teaching physiology
> >> to
> >> > > students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general
> >> > > physiology or neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a
> >> > > researcher in this field for
> >> over
> >> > > 20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the
> >> > > problem with using the web as a source for scientific and
> >> > > technical information -
> >> there's
> >> > > so much garbage out there.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Peter Aitken
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move
> >> > across the cell membrane from a higher to a lower concentration...
> >> >
> >> > I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)
> >> >
> >> > Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the
> >> > membrane to hydrate the meat rather than the water moving from the
> >> > meat to dilute the brine, hence drying the meat out more?
> >> > Especially since NaCl is a larger molecule than H2O? (unless my
> >> > chemistry is off, which is possible... <G>)
> >> >
> >> > I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist,
> >> > I'd like to understand why... <G>
> >> >
> >>
> >> As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to
> >> do with osmosis - rather the salt changes the structure of proteins
> >> in the meat so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat is
> >> jucier. My post on osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea
> >> that salt does not cross membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case,
> >> since both salt and water can cross membranes, although slowly, the
> >> end result of osmosis if the meat is left in the brine long enough
> >> would be an equilibrium between the brining fluid and the
> >> intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine too long the
> >> meat ends up too salty.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Peter Aitken
> >
> >
> > Ok, so, my final question is.....
> >
> > if you know how to cover and/or baste a turkey, and cook at the
> > correct time and temperature.....
> >
> > why do you brine a turkey at all when you know that a higher sodium
> > content is bad, and a properly cooked/basted bird is utterly
> > delicious??? :-d
> >
> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a
> > few successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol
> > of brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
> >
> > K.
> >
>
> I find it very little trouble to mix up a brine and immerse a turkey for 24
> hrs. Takes less then 15 minutes prep and execution time. This method allows
> for moister meat and for some flavour...Try adding lime or orange juice to
> the brine...
>
> If you are happy without brining why all this folderol from you? I don't
> have to convince you for me to be happy.

Because I was curious, as I've never tried it, and am ALWAYS open to new
cooking techniques! I was not asking to be argumentative silly! I am
really interested in the how and why.

So, is brining an interesting technique for other types of meats, and
how does it differ from marinating? After all, my favorite marinade for
red meats involves either teryaki and/or soy sauce with the other spices
and/or sweetners, so overall there is not much difference as both are
high in salt.

Anyone ever added herbs/spices to the brine to make it more of a marinade?

>
> Some like warm apple pie and ice cream others just apple pie and again
> still others room temp apple pie with a sharp cheese. We all have differing
> tastes and attitudes. And frankly I don't care how it works, but do enjoy
> that it works. I find it works well with pork as well. If it tastes salty
> to you perhaps you use too strong a brine or are more sensitive to the
> taste of salt than I.
> --
> And the beet goes on! (or under)
> -me just a while ago

As I said, I've never tried it. :-)

As for pork, I usually do the garlic sliver poke thing with pork roasts
and then cover it over with fresh herbs so the flavor cooks in as it roasts.

The problem that I often have with pork roasts is that, if I don't
garlic it, it tends to have a "musty" overtone as a leftover. :-P

I've never tried soaking an entire pork shoulder roast.

Time to play with my food again! <G>

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:19:39 -0600, Katra >
wrote:

>
>
>Reg wrote:
>>
>> Katra wrote:
>>
>> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
>> > successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
>> > brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
>>
>> The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
>> using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
>> not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
>> my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.
>>
>> --
>> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>
>
>Good answer. :-)
>
>K.

Yes, it's an excellent answer. If you want to prove it to yourself
before doing two big expensive birds, go by a 6 pack of chicken
drumsticks. Brine 3 and leave 3 virgin. It's a cheap way to make
your decision. I haven't been following this thread so hopefully I'm
not repeating what has been said.

At the 2002 Chicago Cook-In, Hag made fried chicken which she brought
in brine. At the 2003 Midwest Cook-In I made it in her honor because
she wasn't able to get here from Okinawa this year. It's fabulous,
and the key is the brine.

Here's a link with the brine recipe. Look for Hag's fried chicken.
Brine them and deep fry, broil, bake, grill or whatever you want.

If you can't tell the difference then you've answered your question
for less than 5 bucks, and can eat the experience.

http://home.att.net/~edible-complex/chicago02/

Gar

"Reg" > wrote in message
. com...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
> > successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
> > brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
>
> The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
> using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
> not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
> my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.
>

I find that switching to free range chicken, I brine not (they're 20¢/lb
more than the Perdue at my local mart). However, free range/local farm
raised turkeys are exponentially more per pound than the chickens are, so I
go with the 'regular' turkeys and always brine them. I prefer meat without
antibiotics added, hence my leaning to organic, plus if I can buy locally,
I'm keeping my distance from the doofi.

<Deep breath> Anyway, Reg's advice is true and correct; try both side by
side (as any real comparison should be done) and you'll see.

Jack Poultrified Forest

Gar wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:19:39 -0600, Katra >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Reg wrote:
> >>
> >> Katra wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'm just asking this because my late mom (and now myself) have had a few
> >> > successful turkey bakes without all the time, trouble and folderol of
> >> > brining!!! :-) Please explain this to me!
> >>
> >> The answer is simple enough. At your next gathering cook two birds
> >> using the same recipe except for one factor, one is brined and one is
> >> not. Put them both out and the brined disappears faster. That's been
> >> my consistent experience, and it's a pretty good reason.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
> >
> >
> >Good answer. :-)
> >
> >K.
>
> Yes, it's an excellent answer. If you want to prove it to yourself
> before doing two big expensive birds, go by a 6 pack of chicken
> drumsticks. Brine 3 and leave 3 virgin. It's a cheap way to make
> your decision. I haven't been following this thread so hopefully I'm
> not repeating what has been said.
>
> At the 2002 Chicago Cook-In, Hag made fried chicken which she brought
> in brine. At the 2003 Midwest Cook-In I made it in her honor because
> she wasn't able to get here from Okinawa this year. It's fabulous,
> and the key is the brine.
>
> Here's a link with the brine recipe. Look for Hag's fried chicken.
> Brine them and deep fry, broil, bake, grill or whatever you want.
>
> If you can't tell the difference then you've answered your question
> for less than 5 bucks, and can eat the experience.
>
> http://home.att.net/~edible-complex/chicago02/
>
> Gar
>
>

I see it's time to experiment again...
Heaven knows I'm always open to new culinary methodology. <G>

Does brining work with chicken parts?
How about boneless skinless chicken boobies?
That is one Item I have a lot of "dryness" issues with.

The den is nearly done, so hopefully will be getting back
into serious body building after the first of the year. :-P
The primary diet is chicken breasts.

Pork roasts, water fowl etc.?

This kind of thing is exactly why I signed on to this list!

Danke!

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra

Steve Wertz wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:49:23 -0600, Gar <> wrote:
>
> >Yes, it's an excellent answer. If you want to prove it to yourself
> >before doing two big expensive birds, go by a 6 pack of chicken
> >drumsticks. Brine 3 and leave 3 virgin. It's a cheap way to make
> >your decision. I haven't been following this thread so hopefully I'm
> >not repeating what has been said.
>
> If you really feel the need to prove it to yourself, use breasts. The
> dark meat doesn't seem to take to brine (or need at) as much as the
> white meat, IMHO.
>
> -sw

Funny, I just asked that question in another post. :-)
I like to buy just breasts, better yet, boneless skinless chicken breasts.

I have a h*ll of a time keeping those from being dry, even in stir
fry's. If brining will fix that problem, I'm all ears, forks,
whatever... :-)

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra

Katra wrote:

> Steve Wertz wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:49:23 -0600, Gar <> wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, it's an excellent answer. If you want to prove it to yourself
>>>before doing two big expensive birds, go by a 6 pack of chicken
>>>drumsticks. Brine 3 and leave 3 virgin. It's a cheap way to make
>>>your decision. I haven't been following this thread so hopefully I'm
>>>not repeating what has been said.
>>
>>If you really feel the need to prove it to yourself, use breasts. The
>>dark meat doesn't seem to take to brine (or need at) as much as the
>>white meat, IMHO.

I don't agree. I routinely brine whole leg quarters and boneless
thighs. They're much improved.


> Funny, I just asked that question in another post. :-)
> I like to buy just breasts, better yet, boneless skinless chicken breasts.
>
> I have a h*ll of a time keeping those from being dry, even in stir
> fry's. If brining will fix that problem, I'm all ears, forks,
> whatever... :-)

There are two simple solutions if you must use breast meat:
1) Don't overcook them. The degree of doneness is the determinant of
how moist they'll seem to you.
2) Brine them *and* don't overcook them. They'll be a bit more
tolerant of culinary abuse like overcooking.

The solution I prefer is to buy boneless, skinless chicken thighs at
about 1/2 the price. They're more forgiving in cooking, have a better
*bite* to them and have considerably more flavor.

Chicken pieces can be brined rather nicely and it only takes a few hours.

Pastorio

Jack Schidt® wrote:

> I find that switching to free range chicken, I brine not (they're 20¢/lb
> more than the Perdue at my local mart). However, free range/local farm
> raised turkeys are exponentially more per pound than the chickens are, so I
> go with the 'regular' turkeys and always brine them. I prefer meat without
> antibiotics added, hence my leaning to organic, plus if I can buy locally,
> I'm keeping my distance from the doofi.

Good point. I have a problem in that I haven't found a source of
good free range chickens in my area, or at least a product that
justifies the cost. That's partly subjective though, and I'm
still looking in earnest.

I did find an outstanding free range duck that I'm quite excited
about. Unfortunately they're only selling to restaurants at this
point, but I have high hopes that will change.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Katra wrote:
>
> > Steve Wertz wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:49:23 -0600, Gar <> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Yes, it's an excellent answer. If you want to prove it to yourself
> >>>before doing two big expensive birds, go by a 6 pack of chicken
> >>>drumsticks. Brine 3 and leave 3 virgin. It's a cheap way to make
> >>>your decision. I haven't been following this thread so hopefully I'm
> >>>not repeating what has been said.
> >>
> >>If you really feel the need to prove it to yourself, use breasts. The
> >>dark meat doesn't seem to take to brine (or need at) as much as the
> >>white meat, IMHO.
>
> I don't agree. I routinely brine whole leg quarters and boneless
> thighs. They're much improved.

I do get boneless thighs a lot but they tend to be higher in fat...

Guess I need to google for the actual brining recipes and give that a
shot, but I seldom have problems with them straight out of the bag.

I did read the bag tho' and it appears that many of those frozen
products are more or less pre-brined???

>
> > Funny, I just asked that question in another post. :-)
> > I like to buy just breasts, better yet, boneless skinless chicken breasts.
> >
> > I have a h*ll of a time keeping those from being dry, even in stir
> > fry's. If brining will fix that problem, I'm all ears, forks,
> > whatever... :-)
>
> There are two simple solutions if you must use breast meat:
> 1) Don't overcook them. The degree of doneness is the determinant of
> how moist they'll seem to you.

That's pretty standard. One of my biggest gripes is that many places
overcook meat and cook it to death! :-P I try very hard not to do that.

> 2) Brine them *and* don't overcook them. They'll be a bit more
> tolerant of culinary abuse like overcooking.

Time to experiment. :-)

>
> The solution I prefer is to buy boneless, skinless chicken thighs at
> about 1/2 the price. They're more forgiving in cooking, have a better
> *bite* to them and have considerably more flavor.
>
> Chicken pieces can be brined rather nicely and it only takes a few hours.
>
> Pastorio

Thighs really are my favorite, I was just trying to cut back on fat and
calories by using more breast meat.

Thanks muchos for the input!

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...s&userid=Katra