We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.

I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.

Is this a West coast phenomenon ?

Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".

Then, they have a two-tier price system.
The "club price" ( which I see as the regular price )
and the "store price" ( hugely inflated )

All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.

Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
what John, or Mary bought today ?

Can anyone offer any insight ??
<rj>

"" wrote:

> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?

It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
tell your health care insurance company that you're a
non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.

Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
whether you were sober while driving.

Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
access the database to see if you make any purchases
that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
Are you cheating on your wife?

This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
often more than the actual products being sold.

"<RJ>" > wrote in
:

> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>
> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?
>
> Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
> wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".
>
> Then, they have a two-tier price system.
> The "club price" ( which I see as the regular price )
> and the "store price" ( hugely inflated )
>
> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.
>
> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> Can anyone offer any insight ??
> <rj>
>

Get yourself a card. When supplying info remember your name is Elmore Fudd
or Cindy Bear and your address is 222 Tudor Terrace. Using 274-1111 or 832-
1111 as a phone number...

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

"<RJ>" wrote:
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>
> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?

Hell, no! Where were you on the East Coast? Where I'm from (NYS), cards were
offered by almost every store - the biggies in the Finger Lakes Region were
Wegman's and Top's.

Now that *I* am in the West (Utah), the cards to have are Albertson's and
Smith's.*

* Smith's Stores recently took over the Fred Meyer stores. Smith's parent
company is actually Kroger. Fred Meyer had been Kroger stores too, so there
really is no difference.


> Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
> wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".

Wegman's had been (and may still be) married up with a building supply store
called Chase Pitkin. Chase Pitkin had its own card, but signing up for a
Wegman's card automatically qualified you for a Chase Pitkin card if you
wanted to get one.


> Then, they have a two-tier price system.
> The "club price" ( which I see as the regular price )
> and the "store price" ( hugely inflated )

Absolutely. They are a classic rip off, but the only way to save on the
inflated prices these stores charge.


> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.
>
> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> Can anyone offer any insight ??

Big Brother is watching.

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> "" wrote:
>
> > Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> > what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
> Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> whether you were sober while driving.
>
> Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
> he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
> access the database to see if you make any purchases
> that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
> a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
> you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
> Are you cheating on your wife?
>
> This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
> often more than the actual products being sold.
>

I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit. I may be wrong but I have
never seen any reliable of even semi-reliable evidence that supports your
contentions. If you have such evidence please provide it.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> "" wrote:
>
> > Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> > what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
> Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> whether you were sober while driving.
>
> Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
> he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
> access the database to see if you make any purchases
> that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
> a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
> you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
> Are you cheating on your wife?
>
> This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
> often more than the actual products being sold.
>

I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit. I may be wrong but I have
never seen any reliable of even semi-reliable evidence that supports your
contentions. If you have such evidence please provide it.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Pennyaline" > wrote in
:

> "<RJ>" wrote:
>> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>>
>> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
>> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>>
>> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?
>
> Hell, no! Where were you on the East Coast? Where I'm from (NYS),
> cards were offered by almost every store - the biggies in the Finger
> Lakes Region were Wegman's and Top's.
>
> Now that *I* am in the West (Utah), the cards to have are Albertson's
> and Smith's.*

Every supermarket chain in AZ now uses cards. The major holdout was
Albertson's, but they succumbed a few months ago.

> * Smith's Stores recently took over the Fred Meyer stores. Smith's
> parent company is actually Kroger. Fred Meyer had been Kroger stores
> too, so there really is no difference.

Here in AZ it was Fry's who took over the Fred Meyer stores a couple of
years ago, although there weren't many of them. Fry's parent company is
also Kroger, and there are various Kroger-branded products on the
shelves.

>> Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
>> wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".

Even PetSmart now has a shoppers card.

> Wegman's had been (and may still be) married up with a building supply
> store called Chase Pitkin. Chase Pitkin had its own card, but signing
> up for a Wegman's card automatically qualified you for a Chase Pitkin
> card if you wanted to get one.
>
>> Then, they have a two-tier price system.
>> The "club price" ( which I see as the regular price )
>> and the "store price" ( hugely inflated )
>
> Absolutely. They are a classic rip off, but the only way to save on
> the inflated prices these stores charge.
>
>> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
>> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
>> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.

Inventory control and automated ordering is the major point. With most
stores selling thousands of products today, it would be both a physical
and financial nightmare to maintain it all by hand.

>> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
>> what John, or Mary bought today ?

Clearly, they don't, but inventory, ordering, and to some extent,
demographics are all important to maintaining an efficient store that
carries products you want.

>> Can anyone offer any insight ??

When the cards first appeared in stores where I used to shop in Ohio,
about 6 years ago, I was tentative about getting one. Realizing that I
was losing money if I didn't use a card, I quickly jumped on the
bandwagon. I would much rather that the store ran legitimate specials
available to everyone, still offered newspaper coupons as they used to,
etc., but since they don't, the cards enable some measure of savings.
You'll never beat this process and it won't go away, so unless you don't
care how much something costs, you might as well cave in and use the
cards.

"Regular" prices for merchandise were inflated when an item was "on
sale" long before cards appeared on the scene. Retail has always
operated this way as long as I can remember.

Most stores where I shop with cards also issue immediate coupons for the
similar or same products which can be an additional help.

Wayne in Phoenix

If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.

In article >,
says...
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>
> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?
>
> Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
> wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".
>
> Then, they have a two-tier price system.
> The "club price" ( which I see as the regular price )
> and the "store price" ( hugely inflated )
>
> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.
>
> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> Can anyone offer any insight ??
> <rj>
>
So they can target marketing information *directly* to you. Bear in mind
that they never require any ID for getting these cards, so just make up
any name, address and phone number you wish. Just make sure the phone
number is one that you'll remember easily, in case you ever forget your
card and want to be able to get the cardmember discounts.
--
Donna
A pessimist believes all women are bad. An optimist hopes they are.

"" wrote:
>
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>


>
> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.
>
> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> Can anyone offer any insight ??
> <rj>



As a minimum it gives the merchant additional
security--backup ID information when you write a
check for your purchases, unless you signed up as
Elmer Fudd, of course.

gloria p

"" wrote:
>
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>


>
> All merchandise is scanned to the inventory control computer.
> If the retailer wants to know "whats selling", all he's got to do
> is call up todays ( or this weeks) sales, by item, or by volume.
>
> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
> Can anyone offer any insight ??
> <rj>



As a minimum it gives the merchant additional
security--backup ID information when you write a
check for your purchases, unless you signed up as
Elmer Fudd, of course.

gloria p

Here in Cincinnati it seems all the supermarket chains except for Meijer has
the card; even CVS pharmacy has a discount card.



Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Peter Aitken wrote:

> I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit.

I note that the same company which collects much of
the supermarket card data is ChoicePoint, which
also offers the CLUE database access service to
insurance companies. Here is a description of CLUE:

http://www.insurance.wa.gov/factshee...ctShtRcdNum=13

I don't know what data is accessible from CLUE.
But I think if a big customer like the insurance
companies had a use for access to data owned
by ChoicePoint, it would make sense that
ChoicePoint would listen to them. Can you
imagine a ChoicePoint executive saying "Hey,
I don't think it would be ethical to let insurance
companies have access to this data because
consumers wouldn't be expecting their shopping
history to be turned against them."?

Here's more information about ChoicePoint:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=3408

The organization resisting supermarket loyalty
cards is CASPIAN:

http://www.nocards.org/join/index.shtml

"hahabogus" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Get yourself a card. When supplying info remember your name is Elmore Fudd
> or Cindy Bear and your address is 222 Tudor Terrace. Using 274-1111 or
832-
> 1111 as a phone number...
>

Good plan but all of the stores in my area actually demand a photo ID to get
their card. It really makes you wonder what is done with the info if they
are that anal...




> --
> Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
> and water.
> --------
> FIELDS, W. C.

"hahabogus" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Get yourself a card. When supplying info remember your name is Elmore Fudd
> or Cindy Bear and your address is 222 Tudor Terrace. Using 274-1111 or
832-
> 1111 as a phone number...
>

Good plan but all of the stores in my area actually demand a photo ID to get
their card. It really makes you wonder what is done with the info if they
are that anal...




> --
> Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
> and water.
> --------
> FIELDS, W. C.

"Puester" > wrote in message
...
>
> As a minimum it gives the merchant additional
> security--backup ID information when you write a
> check for your purchases, unless you signed up as
> Elmer Fudd, of course.

All of the stores in my area demand a photo ID just to get their purchase
tracking card which does not include check cashing privileges.


>
> gloria p

"<RJ>" > wrote in
:

> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.
>
> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.
>
> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?
>
> Every grocery store, every drug store, even Ace hardware
> wants you to sign up for their "shoppers card".

Some info he

http://www.nocards.org/

--
~sethra

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
.com...
> "Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "" wrote:
> >
> > > Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> > > what John, or Mary bought today ?
> >
> > It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> > law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> > tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> > non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> > or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> > insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> > when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
> >
> > Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> > guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> > of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> > blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> > whether you were sober while driving.
> >
> > Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
> > he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
> > access the database to see if you make any purchases
> > that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
> > a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
> > you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
> > Are you cheating on your wife?
> >
> > This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
> > often more than the actual products being sold.
> >
>
> I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit. I may be wrong but I have
> never seen any reliable of even semi-reliable evidence that supports your
> contentions. If you have such evidence please provide it.
>
The government was about to implement a new security screening system for
air passengers called CAPSII. You would have to supply your name, address,
telephone number, and credit card information when you bought a ticket. The
government would then access a number of databases to determine if you are a
likely terrorist. One thing that they said they would look at was your
shopping habits. The Homeland Security people have already required hotels
in Las Vegas to turn over their reservation information. Airlines including
Jet Blue have voluntarily turned over passenger information. There is no
reason to think that the government wouldn't access shopper card databases
to determine you shopping habits. Part of the Patriot Act allows such
intrusions of privacy and prohibits the holds of the data to inform you that
your records have be turned over to the government.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...ter_4656.shtml
From Capitol Hill Blue

What Price Freedom?
How Big Brother Is Watching, Listening and Misusing Information About You
By TERESA HAMPTON & DOUG THOMPSON
Jun 8, 2004, 08:19



You’re on your way to work in the morning and place a call on your wireless
phone. As your call is relayed by the wireless tower, it is also relayed by
another series of towers to a microwave antenna on top of Mount Weather
between Leesburg and Winchester, Virginia and then beamed to another antenna
on top of an office building in Arlington where it is recorded on a computer
hard drive.

The computer also records you phone digital serial number, which is used to
identify you through your wireless company phone bill that the Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency already has on record as part of your
permanent file.

A series of sophisticated computer programs listens to your phone
conversation and looks for “keywords” that suggest suspicious activity. If
it picks up those words, an investigative file is opened and sent to the
Department of Homeland Security.

Congratulations. Big Brother has just identified you as a potential threat
to the security of the United States because you might have used words like
“take out” (as in taking someone out when you were in fact talking about
ordering takeout for lunch) or “D-Day” (as in deadline for some nefarious
activity when you were talking about going to the new World War II Memorial
to recognize the 60th anniversary of D-Day).

If you are lucky, an investigator at DHS will look at the entire
conversation in context and delete the file. Or he or she may keep the file
open even if they realize the use of words was innocent. Or they may decide
you are, indeed, a threat and set up more investigation, including a wiretap
on your home and office phones, around-the-clock surveillance and much
closer looks at your life.

Welcome to America, 2004, where the actions of more than 150 million
citizens are monitored 24/7 by the TIA, the Terrorist Information Awareness
(originally called Total Information Awareness) program of DARPA, DHS and
the Department of Justice.

Although Congress cut off funding for TIA last year, the Bush Administration
ordered the program moved into the Pentagon’s “black bag” budget, which is
neither authorized nor reviewed by the Hill. DARPA also increased the use of
private contractors to get around privacy laws that would restrict
activities by federal employees.

Six months of interviews with security consultants, former DARPA employees,
privacy experts and contractors who worked on the TIA facility at 3701
Fairfax Drive in Arlington reveal a massive snooping operation that is
capable of gathering – in real time – vast amounts of information on the day
to day activities of ordinary Americans.

Going on a trip? TIA knows where you are going because your train, plane or
hotel reservations are forwarded automatically to the DARPA computers.
Driving? Every time you use a credit card to purchase gas, a record of that
transaction is sent to TIA which can track your movements across town or
across the country.

Use a computerized transmitter to pay tolls? TIA is notified every time that
transmitter passes through a toll booth. Likewise, that lunch you paid for
with your VISA becomes part of your permanent file, along with your credit
report, medical records, driving record and even your TV viewing habits.

Subscribers to the DirecTV satellite TV service should know – but probably
don’t – that every pay-per-view movie they order is reported to TIA as is
any program they record using a TIVO recording system. If they order an
adult film from any of DirecTV’s three SpiceTV channels, that information
goes to TIA and is, as a matter of policy, forwarded to the Department of
Justice’s special task force on pornography.

“We have a police state far beyond anything George Orwell imagined in his
book 1984,” says privacy expert Susan Morrissey. “The everyday lives of
virtually every American are under scrutiny 24-hours-a-day by the
government.”

Paul Hawken, owner of the data information mining company Groxis, agrees,
saying the government is spending more time watching ordinary Americans than
chasing terrorists and the bad news is that they aren’t very good at it.

“It’s the Three Stooges go to data mining school,” Hawken says. “Even worse,
DARPA is depending on second-rate companies to provide them with the
technology, which only increases the chances for errors.”

One such company is Torch Concepts. DARPA provided the company with flight
information on five million passengers who flew Jet Blue Airlines in 2002
and 2003. Torch then matched that information with social security numbers,
credit and other personal information in the TIA databases to build a
prototype passenger profiling system.

Jet Blue executives were livid when they learned how their passenger
information, which they must provide the government under the USA Patriot
Act, was used and when it was presented at a technology conference with the
title: Homeland Security – Airline Passenger Risk Assessment.

Privacy Expert Bill Scannell didn’t buy Jet Blue’s anger.

“JetBlue has assaulted the privacy of 5 million of its customers,” said
Scannell. “Anyone who flew should be aware and very scared that there is a
dossier on them.”

But information from TIA will be used the DHS as a major part of the
proposed CAPSII airline passenger monitoring system. That system, when fully
in place, will determine whether or not any American is allowed to get on an
airplane for a flight.

JetBlue requested the report be destroyed and the passenger data be purged
from the TIA computers but TIA refuses to disclose the status of either the
report or the data.

Although exact statistics are classified, security experts say the U.S.
Government has paid out millions of dollars in out-of-court settlements to
Americans who have been wrongly accused, illegally detained or harassed
because of mistakes made by TIA. Those who accept settlements also have to
sign a non-disclosure agreement and won’t discuss their cases.

Hawken refused to do business with DARPA, saying TIA was both unethical and
illegal.

"We got a lot of e-mails from companies – even conservative ones – saying,
‘Thank you. Finally someone won’t do something for money,’" he adds.

Those who refuse to work with TIA include specialists from the super-secret
National Security Agency in Fort Meade, MD. TIA uses NSA’s technology to
listen in on wireless phone calls as well as the agency’s list of key words
and phrases to identify potential terrorist activity.

“I know NSA employees who have quit rather than cooperate with DARPA,”
Hawken says. “NSA’s mandate is to track the activities of foreign enemies of
this nation, not Americans.”

© Copyright 2004 Capitol Hill Blue

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
.com...
> "Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "" wrote:
> >
> > > Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
> > > what John, or Mary bought today ?
> >
> > It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> > law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> > tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> > non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> > or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> > insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> > when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
> >
> > Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> > guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> > of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> > blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> > whether you were sober while driving.
> >
> > Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
> > he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
> > access the database to see if you make any purchases
> > that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
> > a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
> > you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
> > Are you cheating on your wife?
> >
> > This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
> > often more than the actual products being sold.
> >
>
> I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit. I may be wrong but I have
> never seen any reliable of even semi-reliable evidence that supports your
> contentions. If you have such evidence please provide it.
>
The government was about to implement a new security screening system for
air passengers called CAPSII. You would have to supply your name, address,
telephone number, and credit card information when you bought a ticket. The
government would then access a number of databases to determine if you are a
likely terrorist. One thing that they said they would look at was your
shopping habits. The Homeland Security people have already required hotels
in Las Vegas to turn over their reservation information. Airlines including
Jet Blue have voluntarily turned over passenger information. There is no
reason to think that the government wouldn't access shopper card databases
to determine you shopping habits. Part of the Patriot Act allows such
intrusions of privacy and prohibits the holds of the data to inform you that
your records have be turned over to the government.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...ter_4656.shtml
From Capitol Hill Blue

What Price Freedom?
How Big Brother Is Watching, Listening and Misusing Information About You
By TERESA HAMPTON & DOUG THOMPSON
Jun 8, 2004, 08:19



You’re on your way to work in the morning and place a call on your wireless
phone. As your call is relayed by the wireless tower, it is also relayed by
another series of towers to a microwave antenna on top of Mount Weather
between Leesburg and Winchester, Virginia and then beamed to another antenna
on top of an office building in Arlington where it is recorded on a computer
hard drive.

The computer also records you phone digital serial number, which is used to
identify you through your wireless company phone bill that the Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency already has on record as part of your
permanent file.

A series of sophisticated computer programs listens to your phone
conversation and looks for “keywords” that suggest suspicious activity. If
it picks up those words, an investigative file is opened and sent to the
Department of Homeland Security.

Congratulations. Big Brother has just identified you as a potential threat
to the security of the United States because you might have used words like
“take out” (as in taking someone out when you were in fact talking about
ordering takeout for lunch) or “D-Day” (as in deadline for some nefarious
activity when you were talking about going to the new World War II Memorial
to recognize the 60th anniversary of D-Day).

If you are lucky, an investigator at DHS will look at the entire
conversation in context and delete the file. Or he or she may keep the file
open even if they realize the use of words was innocent. Or they may decide
you are, indeed, a threat and set up more investigation, including a wiretap
on your home and office phones, around-the-clock surveillance and much
closer looks at your life.

Welcome to America, 2004, where the actions of more than 150 million
citizens are monitored 24/7 by the TIA, the Terrorist Information Awareness
(originally called Total Information Awareness) program of DARPA, DHS and
the Department of Justice.

Although Congress cut off funding for TIA last year, the Bush Administration
ordered the program moved into the Pentagon’s “black bag” budget, which is
neither authorized nor reviewed by the Hill. DARPA also increased the use of
private contractors to get around privacy laws that would restrict
activities by federal employees.

Six months of interviews with security consultants, former DARPA employees,
privacy experts and contractors who worked on the TIA facility at 3701
Fairfax Drive in Arlington reveal a massive snooping operation that is
capable of gathering – in real time – vast amounts of information on the day
to day activities of ordinary Americans.

Going on a trip? TIA knows where you are going because your train, plane or
hotel reservations are forwarded automatically to the DARPA computers.
Driving? Every time you use a credit card to purchase gas, a record of that
transaction is sent to TIA which can track your movements across town or
across the country.

Use a computerized transmitter to pay tolls? TIA is notified every time that
transmitter passes through a toll booth. Likewise, that lunch you paid for
with your VISA becomes part of your permanent file, along with your credit
report, medical records, driving record and even your TV viewing habits.

Subscribers to the DirecTV satellite TV service should know – but probably
don’t – that every pay-per-view movie they order is reported to TIA as is
any program they record using a TIVO recording system. If they order an
adult film from any of DirecTV’s three SpiceTV channels, that information
goes to TIA and is, as a matter of policy, forwarded to the Department of
Justice’s special task force on pornography.

“We have a police state far beyond anything George Orwell imagined in his
book 1984,” says privacy expert Susan Morrissey. “The everyday lives of
virtually every American are under scrutiny 24-hours-a-day by the
government.”

Paul Hawken, owner of the data information mining company Groxis, agrees,
saying the government is spending more time watching ordinary Americans than
chasing terrorists and the bad news is that they aren’t very good at it.

“It’s the Three Stooges go to data mining school,” Hawken says. “Even worse,
DARPA is depending on second-rate companies to provide them with the
technology, which only increases the chances for errors.”

One such company is Torch Concepts. DARPA provided the company with flight
information on five million passengers who flew Jet Blue Airlines in 2002
and 2003. Torch then matched that information with social security numbers,
credit and other personal information in the TIA databases to build a
prototype passenger profiling system.

Jet Blue executives were livid when they learned how their passenger
information, which they must provide the government under the USA Patriot
Act, was used and when it was presented at a technology conference with the
title: Homeland Security – Airline Passenger Risk Assessment.

Privacy Expert Bill Scannell didn’t buy Jet Blue’s anger.

“JetBlue has assaulted the privacy of 5 million of its customers,” said
Scannell. “Anyone who flew should be aware and very scared that there is a
dossier on them.”

But information from TIA will be used the DHS as a major part of the
proposed CAPSII airline passenger monitoring system. That system, when fully
in place, will determine whether or not any American is allowed to get on an
airplane for a flight.

JetBlue requested the report be destroyed and the passenger data be purged
from the TIA computers but TIA refuses to disclose the status of either the
report or the data.

Although exact statistics are classified, security experts say the U.S.
Government has paid out millions of dollars in out-of-court settlements to
Americans who have been wrongly accused, illegally detained or harassed
because of mistakes made by TIA. Those who accept settlements also have to
sign a non-disclosure agreement and won’t discuss their cases.

Hawken refused to do business with DARPA, saying TIA was both unethical and
illegal.

"We got a lot of e-mails from companies – even conservative ones – saying,
‘Thank you. Finally someone won’t do something for money,’" he adds.

Those who refuse to work with TIA include specialists from the super-secret
National Security Agency in Fort Meade, MD. TIA uses NSA’s technology to
listen in on wireless phone calls as well as the agency’s list of key words
and phrases to identify potential terrorist activity.

“I know NSA employees who have quit rather than cooperate with DARPA,”
Hawken says. “NSA’s mandate is to track the activities of foreign enemies of
this nation, not Americans.”

© Copyright 2004 Capitol Hill Blue

"Mpoconnor7" > wrote in message
...
> Here in Cincinnati it seems all the supermarket chains except for Meijer
has
> the card; even CVS pharmacy has a discount card.

Biggs doesn't have a card and they say it is their policy to never have
shopper cards.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:40:56 GMT, Mark Thorson >
wrote:

>"" wrote:
>
>> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
>> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
>It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
>law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
>tell your health care insurance company that you're a
>non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
>or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
>insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
>when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
>Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
>guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
>of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
>blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
>whether you were sober while driving.
>
>Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
>he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
>access the database to see if you make any purchases
>that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
>a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
>you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
>Are you cheating on your wife?
>
>This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
>often more than the actual products being sold.

LMAO!! Mark, you remind me of my older brother (whose name is also
Mark). *Very* similar sense of humor.

Mary

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:40:56 GMT, Mark Thorson >
wrote:

>"" wrote:
>
>> Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
>> what John, or Mary bought today ?
>
>It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
>law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
>tell your health care insurance company that you're a
>non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
>or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
>insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
>when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
>Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
>guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
>of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
>blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
>whether you were sober while driving.
>
>Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
>he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
>access the database to see if you make any purchases
>that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
>a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
>you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
>Are you cheating on your wife?
>
>This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
>often more than the actual products being sold.

LMAO!! Mark, you remind me of my older brother (whose name is also
Mark). *Very* similar sense of humor.

Mary

The most benign explanation is that it allows the store to gather
marketing information.


For example, the store knows that more people will buy a particular
brand of orange juice if they put it on sale from a regular price of
$2.99/half gallon down to $2.19/half gallon, but they also have good
reason to want to know details.


Do the people who buy it on sale stock up and then not buy it the
following week? Do the people who buy it on sale normally buy a less
expensive brand and switch when the more expensive stuff goes on sale?
Do the people who never buy orange juice try it when the price goes down?


The store can gather all sorts of useful information if they can track a
particular customer's buying habits. They can discover if the person
who avoids orange juice with sugar added also avoids all products with
added sugar or just orange juice. Does that customer ever buy candy, or
does the customer also buy diet soda? It tells how well advertising is
working in specific ways. Do customers who buy premium ice cream read
the ads in the local paper, or do they respond to a promotion at the
local school?


The information is incredibly useful in setting prices. This way they
can discover just how much the customer will pay for orange juice before
switching to apple or grape or no juice at all. It helps them discover
how high the prices can go before the customer will buy groceries elsewhere.


The trouble was that the consumers didn't see the information gathering
as benign. A certain number signed up like proverbially sheep, but a
great many (and I'm unprepared to give numbers or percentages or
anything like that) didn't want the cards. They wanted to buy products
without giving up their privacy, and they wanted to buy products on sale
like they used to. They figured a cash transaction shouldn't have the
spectre of Big Brother behind it. The only way the stores were going to
get the information was to buy it. The sale items that you could get
only with the card became better and better sales. There were fewer
sales that you didn't need a card for. The signage got worse. It was
harder to know what you needed a card for and what you didn't. The
stores had to make getting that card seem like an advantage for the
consumer.


Some consumers wanted the good prices without giving up their privacy
enough to give false names and addresses, but that screwed up the data
gathering system. The store wants to know how far its customers travel
to get to the supermarket. If the customers will drive 5 miles, they
don't need a store in every town. The store wants to know what economic
bracket the customers are in, how much they make, what kind of car they
drive. All this matters in using the information effectively. So the
stores started asking for photo I.D. to get the cards.


When the cards started coming in where I live in New England, I talked
about them with my uncle on the West coast. They became popular at
roughly the same time here and there. I don't think they started at one
part of the country or another.


Where I live, there is one remaining supermarket that doesn't use the
cards. I drive out of my way to shop there and like the store as much
as I like any supermarket. All told, it is pretty good. It isn't like
going into a fish market where they filet the fish to my order right
there or a private butcher or specialty cheese store, but the store is
clean; the staff is helpful; there's a fair variety to the produce, and
the prices are good.


At one point I got a clip board and went to all 3 local supermarkets on
the same day, the 2 with cards and the one without. I wrote down the
prices of items I might buy on a typical shopping trip. Boy was that an
eye opener! I saw for the first time how astoundingly difficult
gathering and putting together data is. I understood why the stores
would want those cards so badly.


It is easy to say "I'm out of orange juice. I like the kind with no
pulp, not from concentrate, in the half gallon container, from Florida,
and I don't care what the brand name is; I only want the least expensive
I can get." But most decisions have far more variables than that. On
every shopping trip, I buy some sort of leafy green vegetable, usually
one from the cabbage family. I like broccoli more than cabbage, but I
buy cabbage for variety too. I like kale, but it is usually more
expensive than broccoli. This is not a binary decision. I take into
account preference, what I haven't had recently, how good the produce
looks on a given day (cabbage tends to be uniformly good while broccoli
can vary and be about to go to seed), how good the alternate item looks
in comparison, comparitive price within the one item (is broccoli more
expensive this week than last) and comparitive price between similar
items (is broccoli less expensive than kale).


When I'm making the decision, it all makes sense to me. I expect
someone following me around would think I was a lunatic. (Don't you
dare put sugar in my orange juice, but I'll happily buy candy and 5
pounds of sugar to bake with. I also buy premium ice cream and skim milk.)


The one remaining supermarket that doesn't use cards in my area also has
the best all over prices. I realized when I went around that day
comparing prices that the card stores had great prices on items I don't
buy that often. The best example was soda. I do drink soda but only in
the summer when I get a real hankering for it. I buy fruits and
vegetables all the time. The card store had soda deeply discounted if I
had a card. The fruits and vegetables were a few cents more on every
item. So was bags of flour, bags of sugar, lower end meats. If I
bought at the non-card store, and cooked mostly from scratch as I mostly
do, I came out better at the store that doesn't use cards. I drive a
tiny car so I figure it evens out with the extra driving I do to get to
the store I like.


If you're in an area where there's not much choice in supermarkets and
they all use cards, your best bet is to find friends who feel as you do
and switch cards with them every time you see them. Go to work, switch
cards. Go to church or PTA meetings or your bowling game, and switch
cards with anyone willing to switch with you. If you can get 10, 20 or
30 people switching regularly, the data will make no sense to the data
collectors. Or use a different phone number every time you shop. Ask
the person in front of you in line if you can buy your groceries on
their card. As a last resort, separate your groceries into those you
need a card to buy on sale and those you don't. Go through the line
once without using the card for the groceries it doesn't matter on and a
second time using it for the sale items.


--Lia

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit.
>
> I note that the same company which collects much of
> the supermarket card data is ChoicePoint, which
> also offers the CLUE database access service to
> insurance companies. Here is a description of CLUE:
>
>
http://www.insurance.wa.gov/factshee...ctShtRcdNum=13
>
> I don't know what data is accessible from CLUE.
> But I think if a big customer like the insurance
> companies had a use for access to data owned
> by ChoicePoint, it would make sense that
> ChoicePoint would listen to them. Can you
> imagine a ChoicePoint executive saying "Hey,
> I don't think it would be ethical to let insurance
> companies have access to this data because
> consumers wouldn't be expecting their shopping
> history to be turned against them."?
>
> Here's more information about ChoicePoint:
>
> http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=3408
>
> The organization resisting supermarket loyalty
> cards is CASPIAN:
>
> http://www.nocards.org/join/index.shtml
>
>

The info you provide is interesting but it really does not support your
original post. I would not put anything beyond corporate America, but just
because they would do something does not mean they are in fact doing it.
Uninformed speculation, paranoia, conspiracy theories do nothing but reduce
the credibility of people and organizations who are fighting real threats.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > I think this is a gaggle of paranoid horseshit.
>
> I note that the same company which collects much of
> the supermarket card data is ChoicePoint, which
> also offers the CLUE database access service to
> insurance companies. Here is a description of CLUE:
>
>
http://www.insurance.wa.gov/factshee...ctShtRcdNum=13
>
> I don't know what data is accessible from CLUE.
> But I think if a big customer like the insurance
> companies had a use for access to data owned
> by ChoicePoint, it would make sense that
> ChoicePoint would listen to them. Can you
> imagine a ChoicePoint executive saying "Hey,
> I don't think it would be ethical to let insurance
> companies have access to this data because
> consumers wouldn't be expecting their shopping
> history to be turned against them."?
>
> Here's more information about ChoicePoint:
>
> http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=3408
>
> The organization resisting supermarket loyalty
> cards is CASPIAN:
>
> http://www.nocards.org/join/index.shtml
>
>

The info you provide is interesting but it really does not support your
original post. I would not put anything beyond corporate America, but just
because they would do something does not mean they are in fact doing it.
Uninformed speculation, paranoia, conspiracy theories do nothing but reduce
the credibility of people and organizations who are fighting real threats.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:ffEKc.126594$Oq2.35625@attbi_s52...
> The most benign explanation is that it allows the store to gather
> marketing information.
>
>
> For example, the store knows that more people will buy a particular
> brand of orange juice if they put it on sale from a regular price of
> $2.99/half gallon down to $2.19/half gallon, but they also have good
> reason to want to know details.
>
>
> Do the people who buy it on sale stock up and then not buy it the
> following week? Do the people who buy it on sale normally buy a less
> expensive brand and switch when the more expensive stuff goes on sale?
> Do the people who never buy orange juice try it when the price goes down?
>
>
> The store can gather all sorts of useful information if they can track a
> particular customer's buying habits. They can discover if the person
> who avoids orange juice with sugar added also avoids all products with
> added sugar or just orange juice. Does that customer ever buy candy, or
> does the customer also buy diet soda? It tells how well advertising is
> working in specific ways. Do customers who buy premium ice cream read
> the ads in the local paper, or do they respond to a promotion at the
> local school?
>
>
> The information is incredibly useful in setting prices. This way they
> can discover just how much the customer will pay for orange juice before
> switching to apple or grape or no juice at all. It helps them discover
> how high the prices can go before the customer will buy groceries
elsewhere.

They could gather all this information by issuing cards without collecting
your name and address.

, Once upon a time in a land far away MareCat was alleged to have said:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:40:56 GMT, Mark Thorson >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
>>>what John, or Mary bought today ?
>>
>>It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
>>law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
>>tell your health care insurance company that you're a
>>non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
>>or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
>>insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
>>when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>>
>>Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
>>guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
>>of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
>>blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
>>whether you were sober while driving.
>>
>>Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
>>he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
>>access the database to see if you make any purchases
>>that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
>>a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
>>you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
>>Are you cheating on your wife?
>>
>>This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
>>often more than the actual products being sold.
>
>
> LMAO!! Mark, you remind me of my older brother (whose name is also
> Mark). *Very* similar sense of humor.
>
> Mary
Sadly, . . . he WASN'T joking. He really seems to believe that nonsense.
Oops, gotta go now . . . The black helicopters are coming to get me.

, Once upon a time in a land far away MareCat was alleged to have said:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:40:56 GMT, Mark Thorson >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Why in heavens name does he need to know specifically
>>>what John, or Mary bought today ?
>>
>>It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
>>law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
>>tell your health care insurance company that you're a
>>non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
>>or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
>>insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
>>when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>>
>>Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
>>guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
>>of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
>>blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
>>whether you were sober while driving.
>>
>>Or if you run for school board against a rich guy, and
>>he hires private investigators to check you out, they'll
>>access the database to see if you make any purchases
>>that suggest lines of investigations. Like if you buy
>>a package of condoms every Friday, they will follow
>>you around on Friday to check out what's going on.
>>Are you cheating on your wife?
>>
>>This kind of information is worth a lot of money,
>>often more than the actual products being sold.
>
>
> LMAO!! Mark, you remind me of my older brother (whose name is also
> Mark). *Very* similar sense of humor.
>
> Mary
Sadly, . . . he WASN'T joking. He really seems to believe that nonsense.
Oops, gotta go now . . . The black helicopters are coming to get me.

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:05:35 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>The most benign explanation is that it allows the store to gather
>marketing information.
>
>
>For example, the store knows that more people will buy a particular
>brand of orange juice if they put it on sale from a regular price of
>$2.99/half gallon down to $2.19/half gallon, but they also have good
>reason to want to know details.
>
>
>Do the people who buy it on sale stock up and then not buy it the
>following week? Do the people who buy it on sale normally buy a less
>expensive brand and switch when the more expensive stuff goes on sale?
>Do the people who never buy orange juice try it when the price goes down?
>
>
>The store can gather all sorts of useful information if they can track a
>particular customer's buying habits. They can discover if the person
>who avoids orange juice with sugar added also avoids all products with
>added sugar or just orange juice. Does that customer ever buy candy, or
>does the customer also buy diet soda? It tells how well advertising is
>working in specific ways. Do customers who buy premium ice cream read
>the ads in the local paper, or do they respond to a promotion at the
>local school?
>
>
>The information is incredibly useful in setting prices. This way they
>can discover just how much the customer will pay for orange juice before
>switching to apple or grape or no juice at all. It helps them discover
>how high the prices can go before the customer will buy groceries elsewhere.
>
Thanks for the detailed view....

I have no problem with "privacy issues".
But I think you give the marketeers too much credit.

A grocery store may have some 15,000 items in inventory.
they deal in cases, and pallets.
They have loss leaders, and high-profit items.

I would think the question would be;
"How many cases of peanut butter did we move last week"
rather than; What size jar of peanut butter did Mary Smith buy.

Demographics ??
I wouldn't care where the shoppers come from.
How many cases of peanut butter did we move ?

Response to sales or coupons ?
How many cases of..... did we move?

????

<rj>

"<RJ>" > wrote:
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.

> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.

> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?

Here in NJ, I would be hard pressed to think of any major
retail store that doesn't offer a shopping loyalty card.
Loyalty cards are big business.

"<RJ>" > wrote:
> We've just moved to Arizona from the East coast.

> I'd heard people complaining about "store cards",
> but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was.

> Is this a West coast phenomenon ?

Here in NJ, I would be hard pressed to think of any major
retail store that doesn't offer a shopping loyalty card.
Loyalty cards are big business.

Mark Thorson > wrote:

> It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.

> Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> whether you were sober while driving.

Do you have any proof that shopping loyalty card information
is used in the manner you describe, or are you just expressing
your paranoid opinion?

Mark Thorson > wrote:

> I don't know what data is accessible from CLUE.

So, in other words, you don't know what you
are talking about and the only basis you have
is guilt by association.







--
--
Stan Horwitz -- -- Computer Systems Manager

Mark Thorson > wrote:

> I don't know what data is accessible from CLUE.

So, in other words, you don't know what you
are talking about and the only basis you have
is guilt by association.







--
--
Stan Horwitz -- -- Computer Systems Manager

Vox Humana > wrote:
> The government was about to implement a new security screening system for
> air passengers called CAPSII. You would have to supply your name, address,
> telephone number, and credit card information when you bought a ticket.

Right, and the key words are "was about to implement" which means the
government does not plan to implement that CAPSII system. The plan was
scrapped due to privacy issues which were mostly raised by the ACLU.

Further, this has nothing to do with shopping loyalty cards.

Vox Humana > wrote:
> The government was about to implement a new security screening system for
> air passengers called CAPSII. You would have to supply your name, address,
> telephone number, and credit card information when you bought a ticket.

Right, and the key words are "was about to implement" which means the
government does not plan to implement that CAPSII system. The plan was
scrapped due to privacy issues which were mostly raised by the ACLU.

Further, this has nothing to do with shopping loyalty cards.

George > wrote:

> Good plan but all of the stores in my area actually demand a photo ID to get
> their card. It really makes you wonder what is done with the info if they
> are that anal...

I live in NJ. The only stores that require ID in order to get a shopper's
loyalty card are for those who want to use the card to cash their checks.
I have never been asked for identification when I sign up for such cards
because I do not use them for check cashing. That includes supermarkets such
as Superfresh, Acme (i.e., Albertson's), Shop Rite, and also drug stores
such as CVS. I also use my real name and address and never has anyone in
a black suit visitted harm upon me as a result of my honesty.

George > wrote:

> Good plan but all of the stores in my area actually demand a photo ID to get
> their card. It really makes you wonder what is done with the info if they
> are that anal...

I live in NJ. The only stores that require ID in order to get a shopper's
loyalty card are for those who want to use the card to cash their checks.
I have never been asked for identification when I sign up for such cards
because I do not use them for check cashing. That includes supermarkets such
as Superfresh, Acme (i.e., Albertson's), Shop Rite, and also drug stores
such as CVS. I also use my real name and address and never has anyone in
a black suit visitted harm upon me as a result of my honesty.

, Once upon a time in a land far away Vox Humana was alleged to have said:
> "Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> news:ffEKc.126594$Oq2.35625@attbi_s52...
>
>>The most benign explanation is that it allows the store to gather
>>marketing information.
>>
>>
>>For example, the store knows that more people will buy a particular
>>brand of orange juice if they put it on sale from a regular price of
>>$2.99/half gallon down to $2.19/half gallon, but they also have good
>>reason to want to know details.
>>
>>
>>Do the people who buy it on sale stock up and then not buy it the
>>following week? Do the people who buy it on sale normally buy a less
>>expensive brand and switch when the more expensive stuff goes on sale?
>>Do the people who never buy orange juice try it when the price goes down?
>>
>>
>>The store can gather all sorts of useful information if they can track a
>>particular customer's buying habits. They can discover if the person
>>who avoids orange juice with sugar added also avoids all products with
>>added sugar or just orange juice. Does that customer ever buy candy, or
>>does the customer also buy diet soda? It tells how well advertising is
>>working in specific ways. Do customers who buy premium ice cream read
>>the ads in the local paper, or do they respond to a promotion at the
>>local school?
>>
>>
>>The information is incredibly useful in setting prices. This way they
>>can discover just how much the customer will pay for orange juice before
>>switching to apple or grape or no juice at all. It helps them discover
>>how high the prices can go before the customer will buy groceries
>
> elsewhere.
>
> They could gather all this information by issuing cards without collecting
> your name and address.
>
>
And Albertsons, at least, allows this. You simply check a box stating
that you don't wish to reveal your name, address, & phone number.

> wrote in message ...
> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>
> > It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> > law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> > tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> > non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> > or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> > insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> > when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
> > Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> > guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> > of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> > blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> > whether you were sober while driving.
>
> Do you have any proof that shopping loyalty card information
> is used in the manner you describe, or are you just expressing
> your paranoid opinion?
>

I asked him the same question the other day and from his reponse it is
nothing more than a bit of paranoia.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

> wrote in message ...
> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>
> > It's entered into databases used by insurance companies,
> > law enforcement, trial lawyers, etc. For example, if you
> > tell your health care insurance company that you're a
> > non-smoker to get a lower rate, but you buy a carton
> > or more of cigarettes every week, they'll collect your
> > insurance premiums while your healthy but deny coverage
> > when you get an expensive disease like lung cancer.
>
> > Or if you have an accident while driving, if the other
> > guy's insurance company can show you bought a bottle
> > of booze an hour earlier and the cops didn't do a
> > blood alcohol test, this will be used to call into question
> > whether you were sober while driving.
>
> Do you have any proof that shopping loyalty card information
> is used in the manner you describe, or are you just expressing
> your paranoid opinion?
>

I asked him the same question the other day and from his reponse it is
nothing more than a bit of paranoia.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.