<RJ> > posted in message
after I
asked on Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:07:32 -0700 Vox
Humana > in message
:
> > > Price surveys shows that the "discounted" prices at
> > > stores with shopper cards are often still more expensive
> > > than the everyday price at stores without a card.
> > >
> > Citation? (Qualifier: A site other than nocards.org. Bonus:
> > A site with actual data not just huff-n-puff numbers.)
> >
> When I walk through my local ( FRYS ) store, it seems most
> of the posted prices are prices I wouldn't pay.

Then why are you still shopping there? This boggles me when people that
are price-conscious don't actually vote with their wallets!

> I get the impression they overprice many items, then
> "discount" them to regular price for card-holders.

And a smart shopper /can/ find some awesome buys using a loyalty card --
but it requires discipline for watching the ads and a willingness to
knowingly participate in them.

> I'd take my business elsewhere, but the choices are limited.

I counter that the choices are only limited by you, not by the store.
With online shopping taking off (again), it's going to bring _only_
those merchants you wish to deal with.

The Ranger

Vox Humana > wrote:

> Very well, I guess that just because the government said it intended to
> collect shopping information about citizens is no reason to think that it
> will. I don't know why I didn't come to that conclusion earlier nor do I
> know why I though they might collect shopping information from databases of
> shopping information.

When did the government say this? Do keep in mind, also, that
the government says lots of things that it never actually does.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> Very well, I guess that just because the government said it intended to
> collect shopping information about citizens is no reason to think that it
> will. I don't know why I didn't come to that conclusion earlier nor do I
> know why I though they might collect shopping information from databases of
> shopping information.

When did the government say this? Do keep in mind, also, that
the government says lots of things that it never actually does.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> "It wasn't a case of law enforcement being egregiously intrusive or an evil
> agency planting a bug or wiretap. It was a marketing person saying, 'Maybe
> this will help you catch a bad guy,' " Ponemon says.

Did you actually read this story? I suspect not.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> "It wasn't a case of law enforcement being egregiously intrusive or an evil
> agency planting a bug or wiretap. It was a marketing person saying, 'Maybe
> this will help you catch a bad guy,' " Ponemon says.

Did you actually read this story? I suspect not.

Peter Aitken > wrote:

> This goes counter to common sense. Aren't low prices primarily a way to
> attract new customers? And if someone is already a loyal customer why would
> the store give up profit on them? They already shop at the store regularly.

True, but in a competitive area with lots of grocery stores, it
is also important to motivate anyone who's a regular shopper
at store X from checking out story Y.

Peter Aitken > wrote:

> This goes counter to common sense. Aren't low prices primarily a way to
> attract new customers? And if someone is already a loyal customer why would
> the store give up profit on them? They already shop at the store regularly.

True, but in a competitive area with lots of grocery stores, it
is also important to motivate anyone who's a regular shopper
at store X from checking out story Y.

Peter Aitken > wrote:

> This goes counter to common sense. Aren't low prices primarily a way to
> attract new customers? And if someone is already a loyal customer why would
> the store give up profit on them? They already shop at the store regularly.

True, but in a competitive area with lots of grocery stores, it
is also important to motivate anyone who's a regular shopper
at store X from checking out story Y.

"<RJ>" > wrote:

> EGAD !!

> Airlines have been doing this forever.

> I'm sure that no two passengers pay the same price for tickets.

Hah! Just last night, a friend of mine told me an experience he
had a few days ago at his employer's on-site travel agency. My
friend stopped by to get pricing on an airline ticket to attend
a conference. The price was around $200 which is typical for
that route (Philadelphia to Las Vegas). My friend was not 100%
sure if he wanted that flight time so he asked if the flight
was heavily book. The agent said the flight was only about half
full so my friend left and came back the next morning. By then,
the exact same round trip tickets were $800. My friend asked
the agent if the flight had suddenly booked up, but it was still
only about half full. As a result, my friend ended up booking a
much less convenient flight. Airline ticket pricing is truly
insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.

"<RJ>" > wrote:

> EGAD !!

> Airlines have been doing this forever.

> I'm sure that no two passengers pay the same price for tickets.

Hah! Just last night, a friend of mine told me an experience he
had a few days ago at his employer's on-site travel agency. My
friend stopped by to get pricing on an airline ticket to attend
a conference. The price was around $200 which is typical for
that route (Philadelphia to Las Vegas). My friend was not 100%
sure if he wanted that flight time so he asked if the flight
was heavily book. The agent said the flight was only about half
full so my friend left and came back the next morning. By then,
the exact same round trip tickets were $800. My friend asked
the agent if the flight had suddenly booked up, but it was still
only about half full. As a result, my friend ended up booking a
much less convenient flight. Airline ticket pricing is truly
insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.

"<RJ>" > wrote:

> EGAD !!

> Airlines have been doing this forever.

> I'm sure that no two passengers pay the same price for tickets.

Hah! Just last night, a friend of mine told me an experience he
had a few days ago at his employer's on-site travel agency. My
friend stopped by to get pricing on an airline ticket to attend
a conference. The price was around $200 which is typical for
that route (Philadelphia to Las Vegas). My friend was not 100%
sure if he wanted that flight time so he asked if the flight
was heavily book. The agent said the flight was only about half
full so my friend left and came back the next morning. By then,
the exact same round trip tickets were $800. My friend asked
the agent if the flight had suddenly booked up, but it was still
only about half full. As a result, my friend ended up booking a
much less convenient flight. Airline ticket pricing is truly
insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> There is a difference. Airlines offer tickets based on a load management
> calculation as well as market conditions. You may pay one price at
> Travelocity, another on the air website, and still another price on
> Priceline. A consolidator may charge still a lower price. All people who
> call the carrier's reservation center or book via their website are offered
> the same fare. The same goes for people who buy at Travelocity.

Which sounds perfectly logical, but in my experience, even checking at
the same agency one day to the next for the exact same tickets will
result in whildly different prices.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> There is a difference. Airlines offer tickets based on a load management
> calculation as well as market conditions. You may pay one price at
> Travelocity, another on the air website, and still another price on
> Priceline. A consolidator may charge still a lower price. All people who
> call the carrier's reservation center or book via their website are offered
> the same fare. The same goes for people who buy at Travelocity.

Which sounds perfectly logical, but in my experience, even checking at
the same agency one day to the next for the exact same tickets will
result in whildly different prices.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> There is a difference. Airlines offer tickets based on a load management
> calculation as well as market conditions. You may pay one price at
> Travelocity, another on the air website, and still another price on
> Priceline. A consolidator may charge still a lower price. All people who
> call the carrier's reservation center or book via their website are offered
> the same fare. The same goes for people who buy at Travelocity.

Which sounds perfectly logical, but in my experience, even checking at
the same agency one day to the next for the exact same tickets will
result in whildly different prices.

On 25 Jul 2004 21:11:23 GMT, wrote:

>"<RJ>" > wrote:
>
>> EGAD !!
>
>> Airlines have been doing this forever.
>
>> I'm sure that no two passengers pay the same price for tickets.
>
>Hah! Just last night, a friend of mine told me an experience he
>had a few days ago at his employer's on-site travel agency. My
>friend stopped by to get pricing on an airline ticket to attend
>a conference. The price was around $200 which is typical for
>that route (Philadelphia to Las Vegas). My friend was not 100%
>sure if he wanted that flight time so he asked if the flight
>was heavily book. The agent said the flight was only about half
>full so my friend left and came back the next morning. By then,
>the exact same round trip tickets were $800. My friend asked
>the agent if the flight had suddenly booked up, but it was still
>only about half full. As a result, my friend ended up booking a
>much less convenient flight. Airline ticket pricing is truly
>insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.

There is method to the madness, though. The airlines know their
routes, demands and schedules well. They allot a certain number of
"cheap" tickets for a flight knowing that it is the average for
otherwise unsold tickets for that particular date/time/destination.

When the cheapies are gone, the pricier tickets remain. As it gets
much closer to flight time, and if it appears that a few seats could
go empty, then a few more cheap tickets will be released to the public
or to wholesalers.

Boron

On 25 Jul 2004 21:11:23 GMT, wrote:

>"<RJ>" > wrote:
>
>> EGAD !!
>
>> Airlines have been doing this forever.
>
>> I'm sure that no two passengers pay the same price for tickets.
>
>Hah! Just last night, a friend of mine told me an experience he
>had a few days ago at his employer's on-site travel agency. My
>friend stopped by to get pricing on an airline ticket to attend
>a conference. The price was around $200 which is typical for
>that route (Philadelphia to Las Vegas). My friend was not 100%
>sure if he wanted that flight time so he asked if the flight
>was heavily book. The agent said the flight was only about half
>full so my friend left and came back the next morning. By then,
>the exact same round trip tickets were $800. My friend asked
>the agent if the flight had suddenly booked up, but it was still
>only about half full. As a result, my friend ended up booking a
>much less convenient flight. Airline ticket pricing is truly
>insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.

There is method to the madness, though. The airlines know their
routes, demands and schedules well. They allot a certain number of
"cheap" tickets for a flight knowing that it is the average for
otherwise unsold tickets for that particular date/time/destination.

When the cheapies are gone, the pricier tickets remain. As it gets
much closer to flight time, and if it appears that a few seats could
go empty, then a few more cheap tickets will be released to the public
or to wholesalers.

Boron

> wrote:

> Which sounds perfectly logical, but in my experience, even checking at
> the same agency one day to the next for the exact same tickets will
> result in whildly different prices.


It can and does change even from minute to minute, even second to second.
It's called "yield management" and IIRC it was pioneered by American
Airlines about 25 years ago, after the CAB (Civil Aeronautics Board) was
disbanded in 1978 and the airlines were free to set prices at whatever level
they wished. Before that time all airlines had to charge the same prices on
all routes (and there was practically no such thing as a "discount" airline,
charters were more common back then). If you ever take a look at old pre -
1978 airline timetables (collecting them is one of my nerd - ish hobbies ;-)
you will see that often the fares are published right there in the
timetable...no guesswork needed...and fares were set this way for most
international routes, too. Typically fare classes back then were Y
(economy) and F (First) class, and there were "excursion" discount fares on
some routes (especially internationally; one exception was odd - duck
Icelandic Airlines which flew from New York to Europe via Iceland on
turboprops years after everyone else had switched to jets....) but all
airlines domestically had to charge the same fares for similar routes -
unlike now there were not 250 or more separate fare levels for a flight
between Baltimore and Denver. Thre were very few restrictions, back then
either - you could go up to the airline ticket desk and get the cheap
economy fare right there and then and just get on board...there were by and
large no penalties for changing your tickets....

[BTW American also pioneered the modern frequent flyer mileage program in
1981...that's a whole 'nother confusing topic!]

The whole business of airline fare pricing is quite a sophisticated process
using all kinds of algorithms, marketing data input, etc.. What looks like
nonsense to you and I Stanley makes perfect sense to the airlines...but then
they are not going to let us in on any of their secrets, either ;-)

The one great thing that yield management has led to is that on average
airline tickets are much cheaper than they ever have been, in some cases by
factors of tens (especially internationally)...flying was once a luxury for
the favoured few, now practically anyone can afford it.

--
Best
Greg

> wrote:

> Which sounds perfectly logical, but in my experience, even checking at
> the same agency one day to the next for the exact same tickets will
> result in whildly different prices.


It can and does change even from minute to minute, even second to second.
It's called "yield management" and IIRC it was pioneered by American
Airlines about 25 years ago, after the CAB (Civil Aeronautics Board) was
disbanded in 1978 and the airlines were free to set prices at whatever level
they wished. Before that time all airlines had to charge the same prices on
all routes (and there was practically no such thing as a "discount" airline,
charters were more common back then). If you ever take a look at old pre -
1978 airline timetables (collecting them is one of my nerd - ish hobbies ;-)
you will see that often the fares are published right there in the
timetable...no guesswork needed...and fares were set this way for most
international routes, too. Typically fare classes back then were Y
(economy) and F (First) class, and there were "excursion" discount fares on
some routes (especially internationally; one exception was odd - duck
Icelandic Airlines which flew from New York to Europe via Iceland on
turboprops years after everyone else had switched to jets....) but all
airlines domestically had to charge the same fares for similar routes -
unlike now there were not 250 or more separate fare levels for a flight
between Baltimore and Denver. Thre were very few restrictions, back then
either - you could go up to the airline ticket desk and get the cheap
economy fare right there and then and just get on board...there were by and
large no penalties for changing your tickets....

[BTW American also pioneered the modern frequent flyer mileage program in
1981...that's a whole 'nother confusing topic!]

The whole business of airline fare pricing is quite a sophisticated process
using all kinds of algorithms, marketing data input, etc.. What looks like
nonsense to you and I Stanley makes perfect sense to the airlines...but then
they are not going to let us in on any of their secrets, either ;-)

The one great thing that yield management has led to is that on average
airline tickets are much cheaper than they ever have been, in some cases by
factors of tens (especially internationally)...flying was once a luxury for
the favoured few, now practically anyone can afford it.

--
Best
Greg

wrote:

Airline ticket pricing is truly
> insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.
>

We complain about airfares too, but the subject line is shopping cards.
The insanity and unfairness of one doesn't make the shadiness of the
other any better. The shopping cards bother me more since air travel
isn't the same sort of necessity as groceries are. Truly fed up with
airlines, I could choose not to travel more easily than I could choose
to avoid supermarkets. I realize it is possible, but far less likely.

--Lia

wrote:

Airline ticket pricing is truly
> insane, and people complain about grocery store loyalty cards.
>

We complain about airfares too, but the subject line is shopping cards.
The insanity and unfairness of one doesn't make the shadiness of the
other any better. The shopping cards bother me more since air travel
isn't the same sort of necessity as groceries are. Truly fed up with
airlines, I could choose not to travel more easily than I could choose
to avoid supermarkets. I realize it is possible, but far less likely.

--Lia

In article >,
"The Ranger" > wrote:

> We'll agree to disagree regarding this unfounded accusation on the
> potential for litigary abuses. There are /so/ many other ways to find
> out if someone is flimflamming the system that pulling raw data, then
> sifting through it, and hoping that it's even remotely accurate is
> unnecessary.

This is a non sequitur. Pointing out a potential use is not an
accusation. How can a hypothetical be an accusation? (let alone an
unfounded one)

In article >,
"The Ranger" > wrote:

> We'll agree to disagree regarding this unfounded accusation on the
> potential for litigary abuses. There are /so/ many other ways to find
> out if someone is flimflamming the system that pulling raw data, then
> sifting through it, and hoping that it's even remotely accurate is
> unnecessary.

This is a non sequitur. Pointing out a potential use is not an
accusation. How can a hypothetical be an accusation? (let alone an
unfounded one)