Dog3 wrote:
> "Laura B." > got ****ed off and typed
> :
>
>
>>>This is incorrect. Your description "dry it until it's so brittle you
>>>can't eat it" is subjective, for one thing. You'll need a more
>>>quantitative description than that.
>>>
>>>Botulism requires a water activity level of 0.85 or above in order
>>>to grow. Beef jerky is well below that level.
>>>
>>>Properly dried beef jerky has a water activity level in the range of
>>>0.69 - 0.7. It's more than dry enough to inhibit botulism.
>>>
>>
>>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level
>>of less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>>
>>Laura B.
>
>
> If what you say is true, why is the jerky in the retail shops stored in
> bags on racks with the regular snacks and not refrigerated?
>
> Michael
>

The jerky in the retails shops is most often cured with sodium nitrate.

There is enough residual nitrate in the jerky to keep on killing
bacteria for a while.

There may be other factos, such as the beef jerky I sese in stores is
wrapped in a plastic sealed bag and air penetration through the plastic
is relatively slow... and there is that residual sodium nitrate.

Jim

--
................................


Keepsake gift for young girls.
Unique and personal one-of-a-kind.
Builds strong minds 12 ways.
Guaranteed satisfaction
- courteous money back
- keep bonus gifts

http://www.alicebook.com

Dog3 wrote:
> "Laura B." > got ****ed off and typed
> :
>
>
>>>This is incorrect. Your description "dry it until it's so brittle you
>>>can't eat it" is subjective, for one thing. You'll need a more
>>>quantitative description than that.
>>>
>>>Botulism requires a water activity level of 0.85 or above in order
>>>to grow. Beef jerky is well below that level.
>>>
>>>Properly dried beef jerky has a water activity level in the range of
>>>0.69 - 0.7. It's more than dry enough to inhibit botulism.
>>>
>>
>>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level
>>of less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>>
>>Laura B.
>
>
> If what you say is true, why is the jerky in the retail shops stored in
> bags on racks with the regular snacks and not refrigerated?
>
> Michael
>

The jerky in the retails shops is most often cured with sodium nitrate.

There is enough residual nitrate in the jerky to keep on killing
bacteria for a while.

There may be other factos, such as the beef jerky I sese in stores is
wrapped in a plastic sealed bag and air penetration through the plastic
is relatively slow... and there is that residual sodium nitrate.

Jim

--
................................


Keepsake gift for young girls.
Unique and personal one-of-a-kind.
Builds strong minds 12 ways.
Guaranteed satisfaction
- courteous money back
- keep bonus gifts

http://www.alicebook.com

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
om...

> Not quite rice wine, not quite rice beer, but in that
> general range. Wines are brewed from fruit and sake
> is made from rice so it isn't quite a wine.

It's actually not so much the original materials used -
wine isn't "brewed" at all. Sake is, sort of (at least,
one of the first steps is steaming the rice), and then
the fermenation is via a mold, not a yeast. And sake
goes through a single fermentation, unlike wine which
generally has two fermentation steps. So it's more
like beer in the overall process, and more like wine
in terms of the alcohol content (in the 10-20% range,
often right around 16%, which is a bit high even for
wine unless it's "fortified").

Bob M.

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
om...

> Not quite rice wine, not quite rice beer, but in that
> general range. Wines are brewed from fruit and sake
> is made from rice so it isn't quite a wine.

It's actually not so much the original materials used -
wine isn't "brewed" at all. Sake is, sort of (at least,
one of the first steps is steaming the rice), and then
the fermenation is via a mold, not a yeast. And sake
goes through a single fermentation, unlike wine which
generally has two fermentation steps. So it's more
like beer in the overall process, and more like wine
in terms of the alcohol content (in the 10-20% range,
often right around 16%, which is a bit high even for
wine unless it's "fortified").

Bob M.

Ignoramus26348 wrote:

> In article >, Laura B. wrote:
>
>>>This is incorrect. Your description "dry it until it's so brittle you
>>>can't eat it" is subjective, for one thing. You'll need a more quantitative
>>>description than that.
>>>
>>>Botulism requires a water activity level of 0.85 or above in order
>>>to grow. Beef jerky is well below that level.
>>>
>>>Properly dried beef jerky has a water activity level in the range of
>>>0.69 - 0.7. It's more than dry enough to inhibit botulism.
>>>
>>
>>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level of
>>less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>>
>>Laura B.
>
>
> If your jerky is properly exposed to air (stored in a cloth sack etc),
> then, due to availability of air, botulism spores should not grow, is
> that correct?
>
> i

This is true because botulism does require a certain amount of moisture
to grow but keeping the jerky exposed to the air all the time would make
it over dry wouldn't it?

Laura B.

Ignoramus26348 wrote:

> In article >, Laura B. wrote:
>
>>>This is incorrect. Your description "dry it until it's so brittle you
>>>can't eat it" is subjective, for one thing. You'll need a more quantitative
>>>description than that.
>>>
>>>Botulism requires a water activity level of 0.85 or above in order
>>>to grow. Beef jerky is well below that level.
>>>
>>>Properly dried beef jerky has a water activity level in the range of
>>>0.69 - 0.7. It's more than dry enough to inhibit botulism.
>>>
>>
>>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level of
>>less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>>
>>Laura B.
>
>
> If your jerky is properly exposed to air (stored in a cloth sack etc),
> then, due to availability of air, botulism spores should not grow, is
> that correct?
>
> i

This is true because botulism does require a certain amount of moisture
to grow but keeping the jerky exposed to the air all the time would make
it over dry wouldn't it?

Laura B.

>
> The jerky in the retails shops is most often cured with sodium nitrate.
>

>


Ya! What he said! ;-)

Gotta love the sodium nitrates.

Laura B.

>
> The jerky in the retails shops is most often cured with sodium nitrate.
>

>


Ya! What he said! ;-)

Gotta love the sodium nitrates.

Laura B.

On 24 Jul 2004 04:12:34 GMT, Ignoramus26348
> wrote:

>I checked out jerky in stores, there is at least 5 grams of sugar per
>ounce of jerky.

http://www.jerkyusa.com/

Carol

On 24 Jul 2004 04:12:34 GMT, Ignoramus26348
> wrote:

>I checked out jerky in stores, there is at least 5 grams of sugar per
>ounce of jerky.

http://www.jerkyusa.com/

Carol

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:36:20 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Drop34 wrote:
>> Ignoramus20054 wrote:
>>
>> > What is saki, is it vodka?
>>
>> Rice wine
>
> Not quite rice wine, not quite rice beer, but in that
> general range. Wines are brewed from fruit and sake
> is made from rice so it isn't quite a wine. Beers
> are brewed from grains fermented with yeast and sake
> is made from rice fermented with something other than
> yeast so it isn't quite a beer, either.

Not exactly. Yeast ferments sugars to alcohol in both
beer and sake. Beer sugars are converted from the grains'
starches with grain malt, sake starches are converted by a
fungus. Sake production is complicated by the need to keep
the fungus level high enough for the conversion, but not
so high that it overcompetes with the yeasts for the sugar.

> Like it's
> in the middle between beer and wine.

It's always complicated applying pre-existing words to new
conditions, but that a high alcohol non-carbonated grain beverage
is called 'barley wine' is sufficient for me.


> Like vodka, sake is clear and alcoholic.

Sake is not always clear, but the fuzzy sakes are less popular in
the US. Whether clear carbonated beverages fermented from malted
grain (eg, Zima) are 'beer' is another question.

Someday, I'd like to know how a high-gravity beer like Guinness
manages to be low carb.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | If I'd wanted all that water in my beer,
Dod #0236 KotLQ | why would I have paid so much to have it dehydrated?

Laura B. wrote:

> So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
> here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level of
> less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.

Part of the solution to what? There's not a problem in the first place.
Dried products are not a botulism risk, your mistaken assertions aside.

It doesn't take a lot of precision or special equipment to make safe
jerky. It's simple to do and there's a wide margin for error.

The fact that the water activity level of jerky is so far from
the minimum level required for botulism growth is what makes it
safe. Botulism is very sensitive to moisture conditions and
won't grow on anything that's been reasonably well dried. Adding
salt amplifies this effect by binding the water and making it
unavailable to bacteria.

The maximum water activity allowed for a non-acidic food to
be considered shelf stable is 0.85. See the following:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/ift4-2.html

The water activity level of jerky is in the 0.70 range. However,
the minimum water activity level required to support botulism
growth under any conditions (i.e. even in an anaerobic environment)
is 0.93. For Type E botulism the number is higher, at 0.97. See
that here.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/ift4-3.html

The water activity scale goes from 0 (bone dry) to 1.0 (distilled
water). Jerky is 0.70. Botulism grows at 0.93 minimum, and fresh
meat is about 0.98 - 0.99.

0.00 Bottom of scale
0.70 Jerky
0.85 Maximum for shelf stable product
0.93 Minimum for botulism
0.98 Fresh meat
1.00 Distilled water

If you're having trouble figuring out how dry jerky should
be go to the store and buy some. You'll notice it's dry but still
supple, not at all brittle. That's how dry it needs to be. You don't
need special equipment in order to figure out how to do this
safely.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Laura B." > wrote:

>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level of
>less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>
>Laura B.
Storage has never been a problem at my house. They pluck it out of
the dehydrator as each piece reaches whatever they perceive as
perfection.

"Laura B." > wrote:

>So then perhaps you could be part of the solution and inform everyone
>here how to tell when their homemade jerky has a water activity level of
>less than .85? Until then I'll keep mine refridgerated.
>
>Laura B.
Storage has never been a problem at my house. They pluck it out of
the dehydrator as each piece reaches whatever they perceive as
perfection.

On 7/26/2004 6:45:52 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> One of the cans of Guinness with the pressurized ball runs around
> 12ish grams of carb. Miller Lite runs 3ish grams of carb. Give
> me 1 Guinness over 3 Lites any day of the week. More flavor,
> better flavor.

And more carbs. Your math needs work.
--
LCing since 7/10/04 - 6'3" 230/226/190

"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun."

Now playing: the radio

On 7/26/2004 6:45:52 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> One of the cans of Guinness with the pressurized ball runs around
> 12ish grams of carb. Miller Lite runs 3ish grams of carb. Give
> me 1 Guinness over 3 Lites any day of the week. More flavor,
> better flavor.

And more carbs. Your math needs work.
--
LCing since 7/10/04 - 6'3" 230/226/190

"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun."

Now playing: the radio

If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.

: If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
: the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.


Better than what?

: If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
: the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.


Better than what?

: If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
: the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.


Better than what?

wrote:
>
> : If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
> : the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.
>
> Better than what?

Regular marinate process is soaking meat in a preserving liquid.
The soak is usually done in an open container, sometimes in a
closed container. Better than either an open container or an
unpressurized closed container.

Marinate in a vacuum sealed jar, and the marinating liquid will
have the force of the vacuum to press it into the meat in
addition to the normal capilary action. It works much faster
and the marinating liquid gets better pennitration so it also
gives a more uniform product.

wrote:
>
> : If you have a vacuum packer with the jar attachment,you can marinate
> : the meat strips in record time and do a much better job of it.
>
> Better than what?

Regular marinate process is soaking meat in a preserving liquid.
The soak is usually done in an open container, sometimes in a
closed container. Better than either an open container or an
unpressurized closed container.

Marinate in a vacuum sealed jar, and the marinating liquid will
have the force of the vacuum to press it into the meat in
addition to the normal capilary action. It works much faster
and the marinating liquid gets better pennitration so it also
gives a more uniform product.

On 23 Jul 2004, Ignoramus20054 > wrote:

>What I want to make is called "pemmican" -- a mixture of crushed dried
>meat, beef tallow, and some berries. I will probably keep it in the
>freezer. So, bacteria are mainly a concern during drying, due to
>toxins they would produce in that timeframe.

I make pemmican all the time. I have some bison now in the refrigerator
thawing out. I do not marinade my meat. I only use a temperature of 115-125
degrees to dry. (Lower in the winter when the air is dry, the higher if a
humid summer period.) I only use meat and bison suet. I get enough fresh
fruit year round that I see no need to add that to the mixture. I keep it
for months in a plastic bag at room temperature.

Bacteria are not produced during drying. The key to all of this is
absolutely no moisture. All bacteria need moisture to survive. (Some don't
need air, but they all need moisture.) I dry my meat for several days.
There should no longer be a smell coming from the dehydrator. The jerky
should be brittle. I render my suet until there is no steam bubbles coming
up. I filter it before the bubbles stop, and then be sure a second time
that there are none. If you leave all the crude in the bubbles won't stop
for a very long time, as the crude holds moisture.

Here is something I wrote a while back on rendering suet:
http://paleofood.com/suet.txt

And here are some picture I took:
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican2/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican3/

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

On 23 Jul 2004, Ignoramus20054 > wrote:

>What I want to make is called "pemmican" -- a mixture of crushed dried
>meat, beef tallow, and some berries. I will probably keep it in the
>freezer. So, bacteria are mainly a concern during drying, due to
>toxins they would produce in that timeframe.

I make pemmican all the time. I have some bison now in the refrigerator
thawing out. I do not marinade my meat. I only use a temperature of 115-125
degrees to dry. (Lower in the winter when the air is dry, the higher if a
humid summer period.) I only use meat and bison suet. I get enough fresh
fruit year round that I see no need to add that to the mixture. I keep it
for months in a plastic bag at room temperature.

Bacteria are not produced during drying. The key to all of this is
absolutely no moisture. All bacteria need moisture to survive. (Some don't
need air, but they all need moisture.) I dry my meat for several days.
There should no longer be a smell coming from the dehydrator. The jerky
should be brittle. I render my suet until there is no steam bubbles coming
up. I filter it before the bubbles stop, and then be sure a second time
that there are none. If you leave all the crude in the bubbles won't stop
for a very long time, as the crude holds moisture.

Here is something I wrote a while back on rendering suet:
http://paleofood.com/suet.txt

And here are some picture I took:
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican2/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican3/

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

On 8 Aug 2004, Ignoramus18740 > wrote:

>I want to add, rendering suet is much easier done inside a stove than
>in a pot on a burner.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. It would solve the problem of it
sticking on the bottom and needing to stir. Maybe I'll try it for the next
batch. Right now I have enough suet from before for another couple batches
of meat.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

In article >,
Don Wiss > wrote:

> On 8 Aug 2004, Ignoramus18740 > wrote:
>
> >I want to add, rendering suet is much easier done inside a stove than
> >in a pot on a burner.
>
> Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. It would solve the problem of it
> sticking on the bottom and needing to stir. Maybe I'll try it for the next
> batch. Right now I have enough suet from before for another couple batches
> of meat.
>
> Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

That method also gives you a milder flavor and smell.
My dad uses the oven to render emu fat for emu oil, and the resulting
oil is nearly odorless. No "cooked" smell to it.

Grind the fat in the grinder and place it in a metal screen colander,
and place that over a metal bowl. Turn the oven on to it's lowest
setting.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

Don Wiss wrote:

[...]

||
|| Here is something I wrote a while back on rendering suet:
|| http://paleofood.com/suet.txt
||
|| And here are some picture I took:
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican/
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican2/
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican3/
||

Wow, Don. Those pictures are really helpful! Thanks for posting this. The
only part about making this that I don't really like is the rendering of the
fat. Ugh. I wonder how many calories are in a muffin of pemmican?

Don Wiss wrote:

[...]

||
|| Here is something I wrote a while back on rendering suet:
|| http://paleofood.com/suet.txt
||
|| And here are some picture I took:
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican/
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican2/
|| http://donwiss.com/pictures/pemmican3/
||

Wow, Don. Those pictures are really helpful! Thanks for posting this. The
only part about making this that I don't really like is the rendering of the
fat. Ugh. I wonder how many calories are in a muffin of pemmican?

Ignoramus26161 wrote:
|||
||
|| in a 100 gram muffin, probably about 700-900 depending on fat
|| content. A lot.

Wow....so you do eat about half a muffin?

Ignoramus26161 wrote:
|||
||
|| in a 100 gram muffin, probably about 700-900 depending on fat
|| content. A lot.

Wow....so you do eat about half a muffin?