Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your help.

I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting larger
and larger, each time I add more wine and water.

I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I throw
out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?

Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
of vinegar?

Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother culture
to how much wine/water?

--
Steve Shapson

We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table. We
started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of wine
bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and the
crock.

We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
see the mother.

It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
salad dressing and marinades.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"


"Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
help.
>
> I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
larger
> and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
>
> I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I
throw
> out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?
>
> Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
> of vinegar?
>
> Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother
culture
> to how much wine/water?
>
> --
> Steve Shapson
>
>

We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table. We
started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of wine
bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and the
crock.

We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
see the mother.

It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
salad dressing and marinades.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"


"Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
help.
>
> I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
larger
> and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
>
> I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I
throw
> out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?
>
> Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
> of vinegar?
>
> Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother
culture
> to how much wine/water?
>
> --
> Steve Shapson
>
>

We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table. We
started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of wine
bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and the
crock.

We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
see the mother.

It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
salad dressing and marinades.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"


"Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
help.
>
> I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
larger
> and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
>
> I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I
throw
> out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?
>
> Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
> of vinegar?
>
> Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother
culture
> to how much wine/water?
>
> --
> Steve Shapson
>
>

"Louis Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table.
We
> started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of
wine
> bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and
the
> crock.
>
> We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
> see the mother.
>
> It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
> salad dressing and marinades.
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Louis Cohen
> Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"
>
>
> > to how much wine/water?
> >> "Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
> help.
> >
> > I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
> larger
> > and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
> >
> > If I wanted to make some vinegar how would I start it off?
Diane> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

"Louis Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table.
We
> started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of
wine
> bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and
the
> crock.
>
> We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
> see the mother.
>
> It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
> salad dressing and marinades.
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Louis Cohen
> Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"
>
>
> > to how much wine/water?
> >> "Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
> help.
> >
> > I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
> larger
> > and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
> >
> > If I wanted to make some vinegar how would I start it off?
Diane> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:07:03 -0700, "Louis Cohen"
> wrote:

>We got a nice stoneware crock with a tap at the bottom at Sur la Table. We
>started it with a mother from a freind of ours, and we add the dregs of wine
>bottles and glasses; sometimes we buy not so great wine for cooking and the
>crock.
>
>We try to add some wine every week, but we don't measure anything or even
>see the mother.
>
>It makes wonderful vinegar. Just toss in plenty of wine, and make lots of
>salad dressing and marinades.
>
>--
Sounds good. I may try that.

But, the best wine vinegar I can remember came in 1964 when there was
a fire in the apartment building we lived in. We had a bottle of
Chateau Latour 1958 (a minor year, $4.85) that was heated but not
broken in the fire.

We opened it, determined not to drink it, and left it to go to vinegar
from the air. I am very glad we didn't mix anything else with it.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to meet a duck because you like pate."
Margaret Atwood

This technique yields just one bottle, however. For a steady supply of
vinegar, take a wide-mouthed glass jug whose capacity is at least a gallon
and pour a quart of wine and a cup of vinegar into it. Keep the container
covered most of the time, but open it for a half hour every day. In a couple
of weeks the madre, a viscous starter, will have settled to the bottom of
the jug, while the vinegar above it will be ready for use. Add more wine as
you remove vinegar to keep the level in the jug constant.
If you want to make wine vinegar in larger batches, procure a 1-gallon (5
liter) cask that has a spigot at one end. If it's new, rinse it with vinegar
and let it dry. Next, fill it to within a couple of inches of the top and
put it, uncovered, in a place that's about 68 degrees F (20 C). In a couple
of weeks the wine will be vinegar. Drain it from the cask using the spigot,
and, if you can, bottle it during a waning moon because it will be clearer.
Replace the vinegar removed with more wine, pouring it into the cask with a
length of hose so as to leave the surface molds undisturbed.
As was true for apple vinegar, homemade wine vinegar will be more delicate
and have greater depth than commercially prepared vinegar.

__________________________________________________ __________________________
_____________

Making Cider Vinegar at Home:

Two factors require special attention when making vinegar at home: oxygen
supply and temperature. Oxygen is spread throughout the mixture by stirring
it daily and by letting air reach the fluid through a cheesecloth filter,
which is used in place of a regular lid. The temperature of fermenting cider
should be kept between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit (F). Lower temperatures
do not always produce a usable vinegar, and higher ones interfere with the
formation of the "mother of vinegar." Mother of vinegar is a mat that forms
on the bottom of fermenting wine that has gone bad.

Do not use a metal container when making vinegar; acid in the mixture will
corrode metal or aluminum objects. Glass, plastic, wood, enamel, or
stainless steel containers should be used for making or storing vinegar. The
same holds true for making or storing foods that have more than 1 Tablespoon
of vinegar in the recipe.

Steps for Making Cider Vinegar
The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar:
Make a clean cider from ripe apples.
Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast
fermentation."
Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid
fermentation."
Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition.

Step 1--Making Cider
Cider is made from the winter and fall varieties of apples (summer and green
apples do not contain enough sugar). Fruit should be gathered, then washed
well to remove debris. Crush the fruit to produce apple pulp and strain off
the juice. Use a press or cheesecloth for straining.
Adding yeast to activate fermentation is not essential, but will speed up
the process. Special cultivated yeasts are available for this purpose at
wine-making shops and biological labs--bread yeasts are not recommended. To
make a starter, crumble one cake of yeast into one quart of cider. This
makes enough starter for 5 gallons of cider; double the recipe
proportionately when making more.

Steps 2 and 3--Making Alcohol and Acetic Acid
Pour all of the liquid into one or more containers to about three-quarters
capacity; do not close the lids on the containers. Stir the mixtures daily.
Keep the containers away from direct sunlight and maintain the temperature
at 60 to 80 degrees F. Full fermentation will take about 3 to 4 weeks. Near
the end of this period, you should notice a vinegar-like smell. Taste
samples daily until the desired strength is reached.

Step 4--Filtering
When the vinegar is fully fermented, filter the liquid through several
layers of fine cheesecloth or filter paper--a coffee filter works well for
this. This removes the mother of vinegar, preventing further fermentation or
spoilage of the product.
Storing Your Vinegar
The vinegar is now ready for storage in separate, capped containers. Stored
vinegar will stay in excellent condition almost indefinitely if it is
pasteurized. To pasteurize, heat the vinegar before pouring it into
sterilized bottles, or bottle, then place in a hot water bath. In both
cases, the temperature of the vinegar must reach at least 140 degrees F to
sterilize the product, and should not exceed 160 degrees F. Use a cooking
thermometer to ensure the correct temperature is met. Cool the containers
and store at room temperature out of direct sunlight.

Flavored Vinegar
Flavoring can be added to homemade vinegar just before bottling. Good
examples of additives include green onion, garlic, ginger, or any
combination of dried or fresh herbs. To make flavoring, place material in a
small cheesecloth bag and suspend in the vinegar until desired strength is
reached. This will take about 4 days, except for garlic, which takes only 1
day. For every 2 cups of vinegar, use one of the following: 1/2 cup crushed
fresh herbs, 1 tablespoon of dried herbs, 2 large cloves of garlic, or 8
small green onions. Other good flavorings include tarragon, basil,
nasturtium, chives, mint, chervil, borage, hot chilies, and raspberries.
Adjust the amounts to taste, but be careful not to overload the vinegar. Too
much vegetable matter can destroy the acid and ruin the preservative quality
of the vinegar.

Some flavorings may not go well with cider vinegar's distinct taste and
color. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, use more delicate or decorative
flavors. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, you will still need to
pasteurize it and use sterile bottles.
Flavored vinegars taste great and have a beautiful color, making them
excellent for use in salads. You will be tempted to display flavored
vinegar; however, be sure to keep your bottles out of direct sunlight, which
will destroy the flavor, acidity, and color of the vinegar.

Uses for Homemade Cider Vinegar
Because the acidity of homemade vinegars will vary, do not use them in foods
to be canned or stored at room temperature. Homemade vinegar is, however,
excellent in salads, cooking, or freezer and refrigerator pickled products.

"Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
help.
>
> I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
larger
> and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
>
> I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I
throw
> out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?
>
> Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
> of vinegar?
>
> Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother
culture
> to how much wine/water?
>
> --
> Steve Shapson
>
>

This technique yields just one bottle, however. For a steady supply of
vinegar, take a wide-mouthed glass jug whose capacity is at least a gallon
and pour a quart of wine and a cup of vinegar into it. Keep the container
covered most of the time, but open it for a half hour every day. In a couple
of weeks the madre, a viscous starter, will have settled to the bottom of
the jug, while the vinegar above it will be ready for use. Add more wine as
you remove vinegar to keep the level in the jug constant.
If you want to make wine vinegar in larger batches, procure a 1-gallon (5
liter) cask that has a spigot at one end. If it's new, rinse it with vinegar
and let it dry. Next, fill it to within a couple of inches of the top and
put it, uncovered, in a place that's about 68 degrees F (20 C). In a couple
of weeks the wine will be vinegar. Drain it from the cask using the spigot,
and, if you can, bottle it during a waning moon because it will be clearer.
Replace the vinegar removed with more wine, pouring it into the cask with a
length of hose so as to leave the surface molds undisturbed.
As was true for apple vinegar, homemade wine vinegar will be more delicate
and have greater depth than commercially prepared vinegar.

__________________________________________________ __________________________
_____________

Making Cider Vinegar at Home:

Two factors require special attention when making vinegar at home: oxygen
supply and temperature. Oxygen is spread throughout the mixture by stirring
it daily and by letting air reach the fluid through a cheesecloth filter,
which is used in place of a regular lid. The temperature of fermenting cider
should be kept between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit (F). Lower temperatures
do not always produce a usable vinegar, and higher ones interfere with the
formation of the "mother of vinegar." Mother of vinegar is a mat that forms
on the bottom of fermenting wine that has gone bad.

Do not use a metal container when making vinegar; acid in the mixture will
corrode metal or aluminum objects. Glass, plastic, wood, enamel, or
stainless steel containers should be used for making or storing vinegar. The
same holds true for making or storing foods that have more than 1 Tablespoon
of vinegar in the recipe.

Steps for Making Cider Vinegar
The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar:
Make a clean cider from ripe apples.
Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast
fermentation."
Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid
fermentation."
Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition.

Step 1--Making Cider
Cider is made from the winter and fall varieties of apples (summer and green
apples do not contain enough sugar). Fruit should be gathered, then washed
well to remove debris. Crush the fruit to produce apple pulp and strain off
the juice. Use a press or cheesecloth for straining.
Adding yeast to activate fermentation is not essential, but will speed up
the process. Special cultivated yeasts are available for this purpose at
wine-making shops and biological labs--bread yeasts are not recommended. To
make a starter, crumble one cake of yeast into one quart of cider. This
makes enough starter for 5 gallons of cider; double the recipe
proportionately when making more.

Steps 2 and 3--Making Alcohol and Acetic Acid
Pour all of the liquid into one or more containers to about three-quarters
capacity; do not close the lids on the containers. Stir the mixtures daily.
Keep the containers away from direct sunlight and maintain the temperature
at 60 to 80 degrees F. Full fermentation will take about 3 to 4 weeks. Near
the end of this period, you should notice a vinegar-like smell. Taste
samples daily until the desired strength is reached.

Step 4--Filtering
When the vinegar is fully fermented, filter the liquid through several
layers of fine cheesecloth or filter paper--a coffee filter works well for
this. This removes the mother of vinegar, preventing further fermentation or
spoilage of the product.
Storing Your Vinegar
The vinegar is now ready for storage in separate, capped containers. Stored
vinegar will stay in excellent condition almost indefinitely if it is
pasteurized. To pasteurize, heat the vinegar before pouring it into
sterilized bottles, or bottle, then place in a hot water bath. In both
cases, the temperature of the vinegar must reach at least 140 degrees F to
sterilize the product, and should not exceed 160 degrees F. Use a cooking
thermometer to ensure the correct temperature is met. Cool the containers
and store at room temperature out of direct sunlight.

Flavored Vinegar
Flavoring can be added to homemade vinegar just before bottling. Good
examples of additives include green onion, garlic, ginger, or any
combination of dried or fresh herbs. To make flavoring, place material in a
small cheesecloth bag and suspend in the vinegar until desired strength is
reached. This will take about 4 days, except for garlic, which takes only 1
day. For every 2 cups of vinegar, use one of the following: 1/2 cup crushed
fresh herbs, 1 tablespoon of dried herbs, 2 large cloves of garlic, or 8
small green onions. Other good flavorings include tarragon, basil,
nasturtium, chives, mint, chervil, borage, hot chilies, and raspberries.
Adjust the amounts to taste, but be careful not to overload the vinegar. Too
much vegetable matter can destroy the acid and ruin the preservative quality
of the vinegar.

Some flavorings may not go well with cider vinegar's distinct taste and
color. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, use more delicate or decorative
flavors. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, you will still need to
pasteurize it and use sterile bottles.
Flavored vinegars taste great and have a beautiful color, making them
excellent for use in salads. You will be tempted to display flavored
vinegar; however, be sure to keep your bottles out of direct sunlight, which
will destroy the flavor, acidity, and color of the vinegar.

Uses for Homemade Cider Vinegar
Because the acidity of homemade vinegars will vary, do not use them in foods
to be canned or stored at room temperature. Homemade vinegar is, however,
excellent in salads, cooking, or freezer and refrigerator pickled products.

"Steve Shapson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone out there who is very knowledgable making vinegar, I need your
help.
>
> I have some red wine vinegar aging. The mother culture keeps getting
larger
> and larger, each time I add more wine and water.
>
> I now have about half gallon of pure mother vinegar culture. Should I
throw
> out most of it and just use a little to make more vinegar?
>
> Can I be using too large of a mother vinegar culture to make small batches
> of vinegar?
>
> Is there a formula which I can follow that tells me how much mother
culture
> to how much wine/water?
>
> --
> Steve Shapson
>
>

wrote:
> This technique yields just one bottle, however. For a steady supply of
> vinegar, take a wide-mouthed glass jug whose capacity is at least a gallon
> and pour a quart of wine and a cup of vinegar into it.


Let me add to this good advice. When you start with that cup of
vinegar, make sure you get cider vinegar from the health food store with
live cultures in it. If you begin with pasteurized from the
supermarket, you do get something that tastes like vinegar, but really
the whole process is a waste in terms of flavor.


--Lia

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> wrote:
>
>> This technique yields just one bottle, however. For a steady supply of
>> vinegar, take a wide-mouthed glass jug whose capacity is at least a
>> gallon
>> and pour a quart of wine and a cup of vinegar into it.
>
>
>
> Let me add to this good advice. When you start with that cup of
> vinegar, make sure you get cider vinegar from the health food store with
> live cultures in it. If you begin with pasteurized from the
> supermarket, you do get something that tastes like vinegar, but really
> the whole process is a waste in terms of flavor.

And cover the mouth of the jar with a couple layers of cheesecloth to
keep out critters but let air in. Rubber band around the lip.

You can also often buy vinegar mother in brew stores.

Pastorio

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> wrote:
>
>> This technique yields just one bottle, however. For a steady supply of
>> vinegar, take a wide-mouthed glass jug whose capacity is at least a
>> gallon
>> and pour a quart of wine and a cup of vinegar into it.
>
>
>
> Let me add to this good advice. When you start with that cup of
> vinegar, make sure you get cider vinegar from the health food store with
> live cultures in it. If you begin with pasteurized from the
> supermarket, you do get something that tastes like vinegar, but really
> the whole process is a waste in terms of flavor.

And cover the mouth of the jar with a couple layers of cheesecloth to
keep out critters but let air in. Rubber band around the lip.

You can also often buy vinegar mother in brew stores.

Pastorio

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:19:51 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>And cover the mouth of the jar with a couple layers of cheesecloth to
>keep out critters but let air in. Rubber band around the lip.
>
>You can also often buy vinegar mother in brew stores.

True, true!

My mother stays on top, with gentle handling. Red wine and
malt (beer) vinegar have given me the best results. Cider is
a little more difficult, because when fermenting apple juice,
a pectinase enzyme must be used to get the pectin out, or
you get a cloudy mess in the vinegar jar. Sun-tea jars are a
useful "make-do" for those who wish to experiment at least
cost. Vinegar can be drawn off the bottom (!) while the mother
stays on top. The resultant liquor can be pasteurized in your
canner, but I think it loses a certain something. The raw vinegar
with a tiny bit of mother (almost clear) has gfreater flavor and
has never disturbed my digestion.

Another nice thing about the cheesecloth cover is that you can
smell the progress of the mother as she makes your vinegar.

A-

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:19:51 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>And cover the mouth of the jar with a couple layers of cheesecloth to
>keep out critters but let air in. Rubber band around the lip.
>
>You can also often buy vinegar mother in brew stores.

True, true!

My mother stays on top, with gentle handling. Red wine and
malt (beer) vinegar have given me the best results. Cider is
a little more difficult, because when fermenting apple juice,
a pectinase enzyme must be used to get the pectin out, or
you get a cloudy mess in the vinegar jar. Sun-tea jars are a
useful "make-do" for those who wish to experiment at least
cost. Vinegar can be drawn off the bottom (!) while the mother
stays on top. The resultant liquor can be pasteurized in your
canner, but I think it loses a certain something. The raw vinegar
with a tiny bit of mother (almost clear) has gfreater flavor and
has never disturbed my digestion.

Another nice thing about the cheesecloth cover is that you can
smell the progress of the mother as she makes your vinegar.

A-

>
>My mother stays on top, with gentle handling. Red wine and
>malt (beer) vinegar have given me the best results. Cider is
>a little more difficult, because when fermenting apple juice,
>a pectinase enzyme must be used to get the pectin out, or
>you get a cloudy mess in the vinegar jar. Sun-tea jars are a
>useful "make-do" for those who wish to experiment at least
>cost. Vinegar can be drawn off the bottom (!) while the mother
>stays on top. The resultant liquor can be pasteurized in your
>canner, but I think it loses a certain something. The raw vinegar
>with a tiny bit of mother (almost clear) has gfreater flavor and
> has never disturbed my digestion.
>
>Another nice thing about the cheesecloth cover is that you can
>smell the progress of the mother as she makes your vinegar.
>
>A-

Do you add water as well as wine ? How much water to wine?

john

>
>My mother stays on top, with gentle handling. Red wine and
>malt (beer) vinegar have given me the best results. Cider is
>a little more difficult, because when fermenting apple juice,
>a pectinase enzyme must be used to get the pectin out, or
>you get a cloudy mess in the vinegar jar. Sun-tea jars are a
>useful "make-do" for those who wish to experiment at least
>cost. Vinegar can be drawn off the bottom (!) while the mother
>stays on top. The resultant liquor can be pasteurized in your
>canner, but I think it loses a certain something. The raw vinegar
>with a tiny bit of mother (almost clear) has gfreater flavor and
> has never disturbed my digestion.
>
>Another nice thing about the cheesecloth cover is that you can
>smell the progress of the mother as she makes your vinegar.
>
>A-

Do you add water as well as wine ? How much water to wine?

john

>
>My mother stays on top, with gentle handling. Red wine and
>malt (beer) vinegar have given me the best results. Cider is
>a little more difficult, because when fermenting apple juice,
>a pectinase enzyme must be used to get the pectin out, or
>you get a cloudy mess in the vinegar jar. Sun-tea jars are a
>useful "make-do" for those who wish to experiment at least
>cost. Vinegar can be drawn off the bottom (!) while the mother
>stays on top. The resultant liquor can be pasteurized in your
>canner, but I think it loses a certain something. The raw vinegar
>with a tiny bit of mother (almost clear) has gfreater flavor and
> has never disturbed my digestion.
>
>Another nice thing about the cheesecloth cover is that you can
>smell the progress of the mother as she makes your vinegar.
>
>A-

Do you add water as well as wine ? How much water to wine?

john