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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Scott, as a beer brewer, I have experimented immensely with using water > from my RO unit, and adding various salts of magnesium and calcium, et > cetera. Some beers benefit greatly from simulating certain waters and > their salt contents (attempting to simulate the sources of their > origins. Others do better with plain RO water. I, too, brew beer, but it's not an analogous situation. Unlike beer, you don't want to simulate a particular region's water: you want good tasting water, with a particular mineral profile to facilitate extraction. > I think, IMO, that Expresso tastes better with plain RO water. Then > again, we are talking subjective points of view. Taste is very subjective. > > I have not tried this with American style coffee. My account is only > with expresso. Perhaps if I try to experiment with water with various > hardness / salt contents, I may like these better. Whether it's espresso or "brewed" coffee, the particulars are the same--as far as water is concerned. Espresso and brewed coffee contain very similar profiles of coffee bean solubles; the difference for espresso is in the emulsion created by the high pressure (as David Schomer notes, the crema is "a polyphasic colloidal foam made by forcing pressurized brewing water through finely ground, tightly packed coffee.") Keep in mind what I've beens saying: I have not said that reverse osmosis water is, per se, wrong for coffee production. I've stated, repeatedly, that a certain mineral content is required. If your RO water brings you inside the threshold, you're fine. If it drops you too low, you're not getting optimal extraction. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Scott, as a beer brewer, I have experimented immensely with using water > from my RO unit, and adding various salts of magnesium and calcium, et > cetera. Some beers benefit greatly from simulating certain waters and > their salt contents (attempting to simulate the sources of their > origins. Others do better with plain RO water. I, too, brew beer, but it's not an analogous situation. Unlike beer, you don't want to simulate a particular region's water: you want good tasting water, with a particular mineral profile to facilitate extraction. > I think, IMO, that Expresso tastes better with plain RO water. Then > again, we are talking subjective points of view. Taste is very subjective. > > I have not tried this with American style coffee. My account is only > with expresso. Perhaps if I try to experiment with water with various > hardness / salt contents, I may like these better. Whether it's espresso or "brewed" coffee, the particulars are the same--as far as water is concerned. Espresso and brewed coffee contain very similar profiles of coffee bean solubles; the difference for espresso is in the emulsion created by the high pressure (as David Schomer notes, the crema is "a polyphasic colloidal foam made by forcing pressurized brewing water through finely ground, tightly packed coffee.") Keep in mind what I've beens saying: I have not said that reverse osmosis water is, per se, wrong for coffee production. I've stated, repeatedly, that a certain mineral content is required. If your RO water brings you inside the threshold, you're fine. If it drops you too low, you're not getting optimal extraction. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In rec.food.cooking, BubbaBob > wrote:
> Any dictionary that uses a definition for espresso that is that far > off beam can hardly be trusted to provide any authority concerning > its spelling. Their etymology is wrong, as well. It IS pretty comical, eh? -- ....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy... - The Who |
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In rec.food.cooking, BubbaBob > wrote:
> Any dictionary that uses a definition for espresso that is that far > off beam can hardly be trusted to provide any authority concerning > its spelling. Their etymology is wrong, as well. It IS pretty comical, eh? -- ....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy... - The Who |
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In rec.food.cooking, BubbaBob > wrote:
> Any dictionary that uses a definition for espresso that is that far > off beam can hardly be trusted to provide any authority concerning > its spelling. Their etymology is wrong, as well. It IS pretty comical, eh? -- ....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy... - The Who |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > >> >>Scott wrote: > > >>Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, >>by letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through >>the plate is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds >>is steam and more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam >>would just seep through the grounds and what you get is a very >>small amount of final product, and a lot of steam. > > > You apparently have what's known in the trade as a 'steam toy', > rather than a real espresso machine. Make and model, please. Steam > toys can make a form of strong coffee but it's not espresso. Does it > have a pump? Steam toys use steam pressure to force water through the > grounds at low pressure. 9 bars of pressure is pretty much the > minimum for making real espresso. That requires a pump, either > rotary, riciprocating or levered. > >>I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the >>grounds. > > > Nope. Not the truth. If you force steam through coffee grounds you > will get the vilest swill imaginable. No one manufactures a device > that intentionally puts live steam in contact with coffee grounds. > > Are you sure your device is venting steam (which is invisible) rather > than water vapor, which is not? > Main Entry: 1steam Pronunciation: 'stEm Function: noun Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer IOW, all water vapor is steam, not all steam is water vapor. They can be other substances besides water. As far as my expresso maker; it's a Gaggia and it produces expresso just like the commercial machines do. I get a great expresso with a great crema. What comes out of the machine is a combination of very hot water and steam. Matter of fact, I went to my friends restaurant who has a top of the notch expresso maker that is commercial, and I saw the same thing come out of his machine; very hot water and steam. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > >> >>Scott wrote: > > >>Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, >>by letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through >>the plate is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds >>is steam and more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam >>would just seep through the grounds and what you get is a very >>small amount of final product, and a lot of steam. > > > You apparently have what's known in the trade as a 'steam toy', > rather than a real espresso machine. Make and model, please. Steam > toys can make a form of strong coffee but it's not espresso. Does it > have a pump? Steam toys use steam pressure to force water through the > grounds at low pressure. 9 bars of pressure is pretty much the > minimum for making real espresso. That requires a pump, either > rotary, riciprocating or levered. > >>I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the >>grounds. > > > Nope. Not the truth. If you force steam through coffee grounds you > will get the vilest swill imaginable. No one manufactures a device > that intentionally puts live steam in contact with coffee grounds. > > Are you sure your device is venting steam (which is invisible) rather > than water vapor, which is not? > Main Entry: 1steam Pronunciation: 'stEm Function: noun Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer IOW, all water vapor is steam, not all steam is water vapor. They can be other substances besides water. As far as my expresso maker; it's a Gaggia and it produces expresso just like the commercial machines do. I get a great expresso with a great crema. What comes out of the machine is a combination of very hot water and steam. Matter of fact, I went to my friends restaurant who has a top of the notch expresso maker that is commercial, and I saw the same thing come out of his machine; very hot water and steam. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Scott wrote:
> In article >, > Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the plate is >>water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam and more so, >>hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just seep through the >>grounds and what you get is a very small amount of final product, and a >>lot of steam. > > > Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine is > malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely on > pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The cheapest > espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the boiler, but only > for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the boiler*: the water is > under the boiling point when it contacts the grounds. > > What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, > water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a > matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See > <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> > <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> > <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm > l> > > Some quotes on temperatu > > "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio > Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under > pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of > the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies said > hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." > > "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee Tasters): > "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought to a pressure > of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat exchanger, which brings > the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This method achieves the correct > water temperature and quality. It is important that the water > temperature should be within these limits, otherwise the result will be > an over or under-extracted coffee." > > > > >>I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. > > > Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to > every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and vapor are interchangeable. Main Entry: 1steam Pronunciation: 'stEm Function: noun Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia has a relay and a pump. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Scott wrote:
> In article >, > Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the plate is >>water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam and more so, >>hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just seep through the >>grounds and what you get is a very small amount of final product, and a >>lot of steam. > > > Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine is > malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely on > pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The cheapest > espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the boiler, but only > for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the boiler*: the water is > under the boiling point when it contacts the grounds. > > What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, > water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a > matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See > <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> > <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> > <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm > l> > > Some quotes on temperatu > > "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio > Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under > pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of > the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies said > hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." > > "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee Tasters): > "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought to a pressure > of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat exchanger, which brings > the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This method achieves the correct > water temperature and quality. It is important that the water > temperature should be within these limits, otherwise the result will be > an over or under-extracted coffee." > > > > >>I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. > > > Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to > every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and vapor are interchangeable. Main Entry: 1steam Pronunciation: 'stEm Function: noun Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia has a relay and a pump. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Richard Periut wrote:
> Scott wrote: > >> In article >, >> Richard Periut > wrote: >> >> >>> Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>> letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the plate >>> is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam and >>> more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just seep >>> through the grounds and what you get is a very small amount of final >>> product, and a lot of steam. >> >> >> >> Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine >> is malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely >> on pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The >> cheapest espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the >> boiler, but only for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the >> boiler*: the water is under the boiling point when it contacts the >> grounds. >> >> What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, >> water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a >> matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See >> <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> >> <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> >> <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm >> l> >> >> Some quotes on temperatu >> >> "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio >> Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under >> pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of >> the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies said >> hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." >> >> "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee >> Tasters): "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought to >> a pressure of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat exchanger, >> which brings the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This method >> achieves the correct water temperature and quality. It is important >> that the water temperature should be within these limits, otherwise >> the result will be an over or under-extracted coffee." >> >> >> >> >>> I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>> Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. >> >> >> >> Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to >> every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. >> > > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and > vapor are interchangeable. > > Main Entry: 1steam > Pronunciation: 'stEm > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch > stoom steam > 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance > 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to > the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of > water vapor > 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for > heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : > active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales > began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up > emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> > 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer > > If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and > steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 > buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. > And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more > expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't > have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my > Gaggia has a relay and a pump. > I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms interchangeably. It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll be spending useless time. Yeah, steam is water vapor that is condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. Back to the meat of this post: what comes out of my machine is the condensation of water vapor and very hot water. It makes a killer expresso. RO water has been very good. I never noticed any difference when I used mineral water except for the fact that my heart is content in knowing that there are much less toxins in it. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Richard Periut wrote:
> Scott wrote: > >> In article >, >> Richard Periut > wrote: >> >> >>> Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>> letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the plate >>> is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam and >>> more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just seep >>> through the grounds and what you get is a very small amount of final >>> product, and a lot of steam. >> >> >> >> Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine >> is malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely >> on pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The >> cheapest espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the >> boiler, but only for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the >> boiler*: the water is under the boiling point when it contacts the >> grounds. >> >> What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, >> water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a >> matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See >> <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> >> <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> >> <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm >> l> >> >> Some quotes on temperatu >> >> "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio >> Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under >> pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of >> the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies said >> hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." >> >> "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee >> Tasters): "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought to >> a pressure of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat exchanger, >> which brings the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This method >> achieves the correct water temperature and quality. It is important >> that the water temperature should be within these limits, otherwise >> the result will be an over or under-extracted coffee." >> >> >> >> >>> I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>> Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. >> >> >> >> Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to >> every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. >> > > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and > vapor are interchangeable. > > Main Entry: 1steam > Pronunciation: 'stEm > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch > stoom steam > 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance > 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to > the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of > water vapor > 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for > heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : > active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales > began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up > emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> > 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer > > If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and > steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 > buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. > And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more > expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't > have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my > Gaggia has a relay and a pump. > I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms interchangeably. It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll be spending useless time. Yeah, steam is water vapor that is condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. Back to the meat of this post: what comes out of my machine is the condensation of water vapor and very hot water. It makes a killer expresso. RO water has been very good. I never noticed any difference when I used mineral water except for the fact that my heart is content in knowing that there are much less toxins in it. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Richard Periut wrote:
> Richard Periut wrote: > >> Scott wrote: >> >>> In article >, >>> Richard Periut > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>>> letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the >>>> plate is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam >>>> and more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just >>>> seep through the grounds and what you get is a very small amount of >>>> final product, and a lot of steam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine >>> is malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely >>> on pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The >>> cheapest espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the >>> boiler, but only for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the >>> boiler*: the water is under the boiling point when it contacts the >>> grounds. >>> >>> What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, >>> water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a >>> matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See >>> <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> >>> <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> >>> <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm >>> >>> l> >>> >>> Some quotes on temperatu >>> >>> "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio >>> Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under >>> pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of >>> the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies >>> said hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." >>> >>> "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee >>> Tasters): "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought >>> to a pressure of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat >>> exchanger, which brings the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This >>> method achieves the correct water temperature and quality. It is >>> important that the water temperature should be within these limits, >>> otherwise the result will be an over or under-extracted coffee." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>>> Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to >>> every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. >>> >> >> Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam >> and vapor are interchangeable. >> >> Main Entry: 1steam >> Pronunciation: 'stEm >> Function: noun >> Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch >> stoom steam >> 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance >> 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to >> the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling >> of water vapor >> 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for >> heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b >> : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> >> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c >> : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> >> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer >> >> If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water >> and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is >> a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety >> crema. And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even >> more expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I >> don't have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. >> BTW, my Gaggia has a relay and a pump. >> > > I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms interchangeably. > It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll be spending useless time. > Yeah, steam is water vapor that is condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. > > Back to the meat of this post: what comes out of my machine is the > condensation of water vapor and very hot water. It makes a killer > expresso. RO water has been very good. I never noticed any difference > when I used mineral water except for the fact that my heart is content > in knowing that there are much less toxins in it. > > Rich > steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Richard Periut wrote:
> Richard Periut wrote: > >> Scott wrote: >> >>> In article >, >>> Richard Periut > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Very interesting points. But, when I preheat my expresso maker, by >>>> letting it warm up and hit the GO button, what runs through the >>>> plate is water and steam. So, what really hits the grounds is steam >>>> and more so, hot water. Very hot. Otherwise, the steam would just >>>> seep through the grounds and what you get is a very small amount of >>>> final product, and a lot of steam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, Rich, but if it's producing steam, then your espresso machine >>> is malfunctioning. Even halfway decent quality espresso machines rely >>> on pumps to force hot, not boiling, water through the grounds. The >>> cheapest espresso machines (under $50) will produce steam in the >>> boiler, but only for the purpose of producing pressure *inside the >>> boiler*: the water is under the boiling point when it contacts the >>> grounds. >>> >>> What you're seeing is just water vapor produced by HOT, not boiling, >>> water; even room temperature water will produce vapor (it's just a >>> matter of quantity). Steam, OTOH, is invisible. See >>> <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00551.htm> >>> <http://www.mentalfloss.com/archives/archive2003-03-04.htm> >>> <http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/e...n/m0010168.htm >>> >>> l> >>> >>> Some quotes on temperatu >>> >>> "Espresso Coffee: The Chemistry of Quality" (Andrea Illy, Rinantonio >>> Viani): "Espresso is a brew obtained by percolation of hot water under >>> pressure through a cake of roasted ground coffee, where the energy of >>> the water pressure is spent within the cake." The text specifies >>> said hot water as: "90 +/- 5C." >>> >>> "Espresso Italiano Tasting" (International Institute of Coffee >>> Tasters): "With the aid of a volumetric pump, the water is brought >>> to a pressure of 9 atmospheres and then forced through a heat >>> exchanger, which brings the water temperature up to 88 +/- 2C. This >>> method achieves the correct water temperature and quality. It is >>> important that the water temperature should be within these limits, >>> otherwise the result will be an over or under-extracted coffee." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I think it's a matter of symantics. The truth is that Expresso / >>>> Espresso is made by pumping steam / hot water through the grounds. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Except that it's NOT semantics; steam is simply too hot, according to >>> every espresso/espresso machine manual or other expert source. >>> >> >> Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam >> and vapor are interchangeable. >> >> Main Entry: 1steam >> Pronunciation: 'stEm >> Function: noun >> Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch >> stoom steam >> 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance >> 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to >> the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling >> of water vapor >> 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for >> heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b >> : active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> >> <sales began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c >> : pent-up emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> >> 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer >> >> If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water >> and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is >> a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety >> crema. And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even >> more expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I >> don't have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. >> BTW, my Gaggia has a relay and a pump. >> > > I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms interchangeably. > It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll be spending useless time. > Yeah, steam is water vapor that is condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. > > Back to the meat of this post: what comes out of my machine is the > condensation of water vapor and very hot water. It makes a killer > expresso. RO water has been very good. I never noticed any difference > when I used mineral water except for the fact that my heart is content > in knowing that there are much less toxins in it. > > Rich > steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Wow, you all really take your coffee seriously. I just drink instant, is it
really that good? "<RJ>" > wrote in message ... > We really enjoy our morning coffee ! > > For years, we've used the same drip-maker > with the paper filters. > > Recently we bought a new coffee-maker > that uses cone filters. > > Same water, same brand of coffee, same measure, > and yet the brew is noticeably better. > > I'm thinking its because > more of the water goes through the grounds. > > ???? > > Has anyone had similar experiences ? > > > <rj> |
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Wow, you all really take your coffee seriously. I just drink instant, is it
really that good? "<RJ>" > wrote in message ... > We really enjoy our morning coffee ! > > For years, we've used the same drip-maker > with the paper filters. > > Recently we bought a new coffee-maker > that uses cone filters. > > Same water, same brand of coffee, same measure, > and yet the brew is noticeably better. > > I'm thinking its because > more of the water goes through the grounds. > > ???? > > Has anyone had similar experiences ? > > > <rj> |
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Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>There is nothing special about expresso/espresso, it's essentially the >crumbiest cheapo coffee beans that rather than pitch em into the compost heap >were instead over roasted (burned) to hide their defectiveness. Anyone, ANYONE >who makes a big deal about discussing the fine points of burned coffee beans >knows nothing, NOTHING about coffee. Right. Gimme a can o' Folgers Robusta anytime. What ya don't drink you can use to stain oak stairs. .................... If you go to a supermarket or Starbucks for your beans, they might well be over-roasted. As to cheapo? Not on your life. Try some Malabar Gold. It's pure bliss. And certainly not cheap. Lots of people roast their own beans, or buy them freshly roasted and grind them with a burr grinder, and make wonderful espresso. You may not like the finished product, but thousands and thousands of people disagree with you. |
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Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>There is nothing special about expresso/espresso, it's essentially the >crumbiest cheapo coffee beans that rather than pitch em into the compost heap >were instead over roasted (burned) to hide their defectiveness. Anyone, ANYONE >who makes a big deal about discussing the fine points of burned coffee beans >knows nothing, NOTHING about coffee. Right. Gimme a can o' Folgers Robusta anytime. What ya don't drink you can use to stain oak stairs. .................... If you go to a supermarket or Starbucks for your beans, they might well be over-roasted. As to cheapo? Not on your life. Try some Malabar Gold. It's pure bliss. And certainly not cheap. Lots of people roast their own beans, or buy them freshly roasted and grind them with a burr grinder, and make wonderful espresso. You may not like the finished product, but thousands and thousands of people disagree with you. |
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Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>There is nothing special about expresso/espresso, it's essentially the >crumbiest cheapo coffee beans that rather than pitch em into the compost heap >were instead over roasted (burned) to hide their defectiveness. Anyone, ANYONE >who makes a big deal about discussing the fine points of burned coffee beans >knows nothing, NOTHING about coffee. Right. Gimme a can o' Folgers Robusta anytime. What ya don't drink you can use to stain oak stairs. .................... If you go to a supermarket or Starbucks for your beans, they might well be over-roasted. As to cheapo? Not on your life. Try some Malabar Gold. It's pure bliss. And certainly not cheap. Lots of people roast their own beans, or buy them freshly roasted and grind them with a burr grinder, and make wonderful espresso. You may not like the finished product, but thousands and thousands of people disagree with you. |
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Rylance Sarah wrote:
> Wow, you all really take your coffee seriously. I just drink instant, is it > really that good? > "<RJ>" > wrote in message > ... > >>We really enjoy our morning coffee ! >> >>For years, we've used the same drip-maker >>with the paper filters. >> >>Recently we bought a new coffee-maker >>that uses cone filters. >> >>Same water, same brand of coffee, same measure, >>and yet the brew is noticeably better. >> >>I'm thinking its because >>more of the water goes through the grounds. >> >>???? >> >>Has anyone had similar experiences ? >> >> >><rj> > > > Do yourself a favor, and experience the real coffee bliss. Buy yourself a coffee mill (not a blade grinder since these burn some of the essential oils in the bean and give off tastes,) and quality whole coffee beans (please no flavored crap, quality coffee has nuances of its own which do not need enhancers.) Bring water to a boil, and shut off heat. Toss in coffee, stir, and let sit for 2 to 4 minutes. Strain using a nylon strainer with handle. Add sugar to taste. You will appreciate aromas and tastes you never have. Drip machines et cetera are fine, but I hate the warmers they come with. Coffee should not be kept warm for more than 5 minutes, otherwise it develops strange aromas and tastes. Instant coffee is horrible. You might as well chew on a caffeine pill if you want a fix. HTH, Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Rylance Sarah wrote:
> Wow, you all really take your coffee seriously. I just drink instant, is it > really that good? > "<RJ>" > wrote in message > ... > >>We really enjoy our morning coffee ! >> >>For years, we've used the same drip-maker >>with the paper filters. >> >>Recently we bought a new coffee-maker >>that uses cone filters. >> >>Same water, same brand of coffee, same measure, >>and yet the brew is noticeably better. >> >>I'm thinking its because >>more of the water goes through the grounds. >> >>???? >> >>Has anyone had similar experiences ? >> >> >><rj> > > > Do yourself a favor, and experience the real coffee bliss. Buy yourself a coffee mill (not a blade grinder since these burn some of the essential oils in the bean and give off tastes,) and quality whole coffee beans (please no flavored crap, quality coffee has nuances of its own which do not need enhancers.) Bring water to a boil, and shut off heat. Toss in coffee, stir, and let sit for 2 to 4 minutes. Strain using a nylon strainer with handle. Add sugar to taste. You will appreciate aromas and tastes you never have. Drip machines et cetera are fine, but I hate the warmers they come with. Coffee should not be kept warm for more than 5 minutes, otherwise it develops strange aromas and tastes. Instant coffee is horrible. You might as well chew on a caffeine pill if you want a fix. HTH, Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > > >>Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? >>Steam and vapor are interchangeable. > > > No way. Steam, at standard atmospheric pressure, is at 212F or 100C. > Water vapor is cooler. Steam is always invisible, water vapor will > form a cloud if the adiabatic conditions are correct. Ice, liquid > water and steam are three different physical phases of water, each > with its own distinct physical properties. > > ... > >>If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot >>water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia >>that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso >>with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have >>observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial >>machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee >>in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia >>has a relay and a pump. > > > Not a steam toy, then. > > I also have a Gaggia. If I ever suspected that steam was coming out > from any place but the steam wand, I'd tear it down and rebuild it. > If you get anything other than water between 192F and 203F out of the > 'shower head' your machine is running too hot for your altitude. It > gets tricky at higher altitudes. I'm at 4900' which requires a > machine that never goes over 203F, the BP of water here. > See the following: steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > > >>Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? >>Steam and vapor are interchangeable. > > > No way. Steam, at standard atmospheric pressure, is at 212F or 100C. > Water vapor is cooler. Steam is always invisible, water vapor will > form a cloud if the adiabatic conditions are correct. Ice, liquid > water and steam are three different physical phases of water, each > with its own distinct physical properties. > > ... > >>If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot >>water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia >>that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso >>with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have >>observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial >>machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee >>in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia >>has a relay and a pump. > > > Not a steam toy, then. > > I also have a Gaggia. If I ever suspected that steam was coming out > from any place but the steam wand, I'd tear it down and rebuild it. > If you get anything other than water between 192F and 203F out of the > 'shower head' your machine is running too hot for your altitude. It > gets tricky at higher altitudes. I'm at 4900' which requires a > machine that never goes over 203F, the BP of water here. > See the following: steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms >>interchangeably. It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll >>be spending useless time. Yeah, steam is water vapor that is >>condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. > > > No, that's completely wrong. Dig out your High School chemistry > and/or physics textbooks. > > Not defining terms makes any discussion pointless. So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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BubbaBob wrote:
> Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>I know what you are trying to say. But we use the terms >>interchangeably. It we were to dissect each word we here, we'll >>be spending useless time. Yeah, steam is water vapor that is >>condensing. OK, I'll agree to that. > > > No, that's completely wrong. Dig out your High School chemistry > and/or physics textbooks. > > Not defining terms makes any discussion pointless. So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: steam • noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. • verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 (be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. — PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of one’s ears informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or enthusiasm. under one’s own steam without assistance from others. — ORIGIN Old English. Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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>Richard Periut
> >>BubbaBob wrote: >>> Richard Periut wrote: >> > >>>Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? >>>Steam and vapor are interchangeable. >> >> >> No way. Steam, at standard atmospheric pressure, is at 212F or 100C. >> Water vapor is cooler. Steam is always invisible, water vapor will >> form a cloud if the adiabatic conditions are correct. Ice, liquid >> water and steam are three different physical phases of water, each >> with its own distinct physical properties. >> >> ... >> >>>If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot >>>water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia >>>that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso >>>with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have >>>observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial >>>machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee >>>in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia >>>has a relay and a pump. >> >> >> Not a steam toy, then. >> >> I also have a Gaggia. If I ever suspected that steam was coming out >> from any place but the steam wand, I'd tear it down and rebuild it. >> If you get anything other than water between 192F and 203F out of the >> 'shower head' your machine is running too hot for your altitude. It >> gets tricky at higher altitudes. I'm at 4900' which requires a >> machine that never goes over 203F, the BP of water here. >> >See the following: > >steam > > €¢ noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, >which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the >expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 >momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. > > €¢ verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with >steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean >or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere >under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 >(be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. > > €” PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam >engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of ones ears >informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up >energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or >enthusiasm. under ones own steam without assistance from others. > > €” ORIGIN Old English. Encyclopædia Britannica steam odourless, invisible gas consisting of vaporized water. It is usually interspersed with minute droplets of water, which gives it a white, cloudy appearance. In nature, steam is produced by the heating of underground water by volcanic processes and is emitted from hot springs, geysers, fumaroles, and certain types of volcanoes. Steam also can be generated on a large scale by technological systems, as for example those employing fossil-fuel-burning boilers and nuclear reactors. Steam power constitutes an important power source for modern industrial society. Water is heated to steam in power plants, and the pressurized steam drives turbines that produce electrical current. The thermal energy of steam is thus converted to mechanical energy, which in turn is converted into electricity. The steam used to drive the turbogenerators furnishes most of the world's electric power. Steam is also widely employed in such industrial processes as the manufacture of steel, aluminum, copper, and nickel; the production of chemicals; and the refining of petroleum. In the home, steam has long been used for cooking and heating. The stages that occur during the transformation of liquid water to its vapour (steam) are shown in the Figure, in which A€“E depict a cylindrical vessel containing a fixed quantity of water subject to the constant pressure exerted by a weighted (W) movable piston. A¢€“E¢ are corresponding points on a graph showing, for a range of pressures and volumes, whether a specific mass of water is entirely liquid, entirely vapour, or a mixture of the two phases. A and A¢ represent this system under conditions of pressure, volume, and temperature such that the water is entirely in the subcooled liquid state (that is, the temperature is below the boiling point of water at the prevailing pressure). The addition of heat causes the water to expand slightly and the temperature to rise until the water reaches its boiling point; at this stage, represented by B and B¢, the water is said to be in the saturated liquid state. If more heat is added, boiling begins: the liquid starts to vaporize (turn into steam), forcing the piston upward more rapidly than before, as illustrated in C. When liquid water and steam coexist in any proportions, the system is said to be in the two-phase region of the graph. In this region, the mixture remains at the boiling-point temperatu the addition of heat merely causes more of the liquid to vaporize, and the removal of heat causes part of the vapour to condense. Though the temperature remains constant, the volume depends upon the proportions of liquid and vapour. If just enough heat is added to vaporize the last droplet of liquid, the entire volume will be occupied by steam. At this stage, represented by D and D¢, the steam is called a saturated vapour. Because there is no more liquid to boil, the addition of more heat causes the temperature and the volume to increase. At any point to the right of D¢, such as E¢, the graph represents superheated steam, i.e., steam heated above its condensation temperature. As indicated in E, the volume of a quantity of superheated steam is greater than the volume of the same mass of saturated steam when both are under the same pressure. The temperature at which water will boil depends on its pressure. For example, at standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psia (pounds per square inch absolute), the temperature at which water boils is 212° F (100° C). If the pressure is reduced, the boiling-point temperature is also reduced. As the pressure is increased, more molecular activity is required to effect the escape of water molecules from the liquid into the gaseous state, thus requiring a higher temperature. The amount of heat required to vaporize one pound of saturated liquid into one pound of saturated vapour is called the latent heat of vaporization. This latent heat varies with the pressure, being greatest at low pressures and diminishing to zero at the so-called critical point, which is the combination of temperature and pressure above which the liquid and the vapour are indistinguishable. At its critical temperature (705.47° F; 374.15° C) and pressure (3,208.2 psia; 218.2 atmospheres) the volume of 1 gram of water is 0.001805 litre (i.e., its density is 554.1 grams/litre). See also water. "steam" from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=71306> [Accessed September 6, 2004]. ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ```````````` |
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>Richard Periut
> >>BubbaBob wrote: >>> Richard Periut wrote: >> > >>>Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? >>>Steam and vapor are interchangeable. >> >> >> No way. Steam, at standard atmospheric pressure, is at 212F or 100C. >> Water vapor is cooler. Steam is always invisible, water vapor will >> form a cloud if the adiabatic conditions are correct. Ice, liquid >> water and steam are three different physical phases of water, each >> with its own distinct physical properties. >> >> ... >> >>>If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot >>>water and steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia >>>that I have is a 300 buck machine. It produces quality expresso >>>with a thick velvety crema. And as I told the op, I have >>>observed what comes out of even more expensive commercial >>>machines, and I see the same thing when I don't have any coffee >>>in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my Gaggia >>>has a relay and a pump. >> >> >> Not a steam toy, then. >> >> I also have a Gaggia. If I ever suspected that steam was coming out >> from any place but the steam wand, I'd tear it down and rebuild it. >> If you get anything other than water between 192F and 203F out of the >> 'shower head' your machine is running too hot for your altitude. It >> gets tricky at higher altitudes. I'm at 4900' which requires a >> machine that never goes over 203F, the BP of water here. >> >See the following: > >steam > > €¢ noun 1 the hot vapour into which water is converted when heated, >which condenses in the air into a mist of minute water droplets. 2 the >expansive force of this vapour used as a source of power for machines. 3 >momentum; impetus: the dispute gathered steam. > > €¢ verb 1 give off or produce steam. 2 (steam up) mist over with >steam. 3 cook (food) by heating it in steam from boiling water. 4 clean >or otherwise treat with steam. 5 (of a ship or train) travel somewhere >under steam power. 6 informal move somewhere rapidly or forcefully. 7 >(be/get steamed up) be or become extremely agitated or angry. > > €” PHRASES get up steam 1 generate enough pressure to drive a steam >engine. 2 gradually gain impetus. have steam coming out of ones ears >informal be extremely angry. let off steam informal get rid of pent-up >energy or strong emotion. run out of steam informal lose impetus or >enthusiasm. under ones own steam without assistance from others. > > €” ORIGIN Old English. Encyclopædia Britannica steam odourless, invisible gas consisting of vaporized water. It is usually interspersed with minute droplets of water, which gives it a white, cloudy appearance. In nature, steam is produced by the heating of underground water by volcanic processes and is emitted from hot springs, geysers, fumaroles, and certain types of volcanoes. Steam also can be generated on a large scale by technological systems, as for example those employing fossil-fuel-burning boilers and nuclear reactors. Steam power constitutes an important power source for modern industrial society. Water is heated to steam in power plants, and the pressurized steam drives turbines that produce electrical current. The thermal energy of steam is thus converted to mechanical energy, which in turn is converted into electricity. The steam used to drive the turbogenerators furnishes most of the world's electric power. Steam is also widely employed in such industrial processes as the manufacture of steel, aluminum, copper, and nickel; the production of chemicals; and the refining of petroleum. In the home, steam has long been used for cooking and heating. The stages that occur during the transformation of liquid water to its vapour (steam) are shown in the Figure, in which A€“E depict a cylindrical vessel containing a fixed quantity of water subject to the constant pressure exerted by a weighted (W) movable piston. A¢€“E¢ are corresponding points on a graph showing, for a range of pressures and volumes, whether a specific mass of water is entirely liquid, entirely vapour, or a mixture of the two phases. A and A¢ represent this system under conditions of pressure, volume, and temperature such that the water is entirely in the subcooled liquid state (that is, the temperature is below the boiling point of water at the prevailing pressure). The addition of heat causes the water to expand slightly and the temperature to rise until the water reaches its boiling point; at this stage, represented by B and B¢, the water is said to be in the saturated liquid state. If more heat is added, boiling begins: the liquid starts to vaporize (turn into steam), forcing the piston upward more rapidly than before, as illustrated in C. When liquid water and steam coexist in any proportions, the system is said to be in the two-phase region of the graph. In this region, the mixture remains at the boiling-point temperatu the addition of heat merely causes more of the liquid to vaporize, and the removal of heat causes part of the vapour to condense. Though the temperature remains constant, the volume depends upon the proportions of liquid and vapour. If just enough heat is added to vaporize the last droplet of liquid, the entire volume will be occupied by steam. At this stage, represented by D and D¢, the steam is called a saturated vapour. Because there is no more liquid to boil, the addition of more heat causes the temperature and the volume to increase. At any point to the right of D¢, such as E¢, the graph represents superheated steam, i.e., steam heated above its condensation temperature. As indicated in E, the volume of a quantity of superheated steam is greater than the volume of the same mass of saturated steam when both are under the same pressure. The temperature at which water will boil depends on its pressure. For example, at standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psia (pounds per square inch absolute), the temperature at which water boils is 212° F (100° C). If the pressure is reduced, the boiling-point temperature is also reduced. As the pressure is increased, more molecular activity is required to effect the escape of water molecules from the liquid into the gaseous state, thus requiring a higher temperature. The amount of heat required to vaporize one pound of saturated liquid into one pound of saturated vapour is called the latent heat of vaporization. This latent heat varies with the pressure, being greatest at low pressures and diminishing to zero at the so-called critical point, which is the combination of temperature and pressure above which the liquid and the vapour are indistinguishable. At its critical temperature (705.47° F; 374.15° C) and pressure (3,208.2 psia; 218.2 atmospheres) the volume of 1 gram of water is 0.001805 litre (i.e., its density is 554.1 grams/litre). See also water. "steam" from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=71306> [Accessed September 6, 2004]. ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ```````````` |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and > vapor are interchangeable. At the point that you see it, it's not steam. The white cloud is steam that has cooled and condensed. At best, even if you say that steam and water vapor are interchangeable, then both are invisible and the white cloud that you see still isn't steam. As the quote from Argonne National Laboratory stated: "Water vapor (steam) is colorless, and the gas that is IMMEDIATELY outside of the kettle spout. The "cloud" or mist is water vapor that has condensed into liquid. It often takes on a foggy appearance." So, what you're seeing coming out of your espresso machine still isn't steam: it's a cloud of *liquid* water. > Main Entry: 1steam > Pronunciation: 'stEm > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch > stoom steam > 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance > 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to > the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of > water vapor > 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for > heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : > active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales > began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up > emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> > 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer Dictionaries list usage, not necessarily PROPER usage. Remember that quote from Jesse Sheidlower (North American Editor of the Oxford English Dictionary) that I posted? "Dictionaries, in general, do not dictate usage: they reflect the usage that exists in the language." People often call the white stuff coming out of locomotives "steam." That doesn't mean that it *is* steam. People also call the white mist that comes out of their mouths on a cold day, "steam." It isn't. Besides, at best it's semantics. The underlying issue was: what was coming out of your espresso machine. It wasn't water raised above the boiling point. > If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and > steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 > buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. > And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more > expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't > have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my > Gaggia has a relay and a pump. I wasn't disputing the hot water part, just the steam. If your machine's emitting steam into the portafilter, I think Gaggia would want to know about that. Steam SHOULD come through the steam wand, not the showerhead. And steam and hot water don't go hand in hand when the water isn't hot enough to become steam. Go over to alt.coffee and ask people there about making espresso with steam. There are people there who sell and repair espresso machines; they'll tell you (as they've reiterated time and time again) that steam does not pass through the ground coffee. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and > vapor are interchangeable. At the point that you see it, it's not steam. The white cloud is steam that has cooled and condensed. At best, even if you say that steam and water vapor are interchangeable, then both are invisible and the white cloud that you see still isn't steam. As the quote from Argonne National Laboratory stated: "Water vapor (steam) is colorless, and the gas that is IMMEDIATELY outside of the kettle spout. The "cloud" or mist is water vapor that has condensed into liquid. It often takes on a foggy appearance." So, what you're seeing coming out of your espresso machine still isn't steam: it's a cloud of *liquid* water. > Main Entry: 1steam > Pronunciation: 'stEm > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch > stoom steam > 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance > 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to > the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of > water vapor > 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for > heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : > active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales > began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up > emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> > 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer Dictionaries list usage, not necessarily PROPER usage. Remember that quote from Jesse Sheidlower (North American Editor of the Oxford English Dictionary) that I posted? "Dictionaries, in general, do not dictate usage: they reflect the usage that exists in the language." People often call the white stuff coming out of locomotives "steam." That doesn't mean that it *is* steam. People also call the white mist that comes out of their mouths on a cold day, "steam." It isn't. Besides, at best it's semantics. The underlying issue was: what was coming out of your espresso machine. It wasn't water raised above the boiling point. > If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and > steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 > buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. > And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more > expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't > have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my > Gaggia has a relay and a pump. I wasn't disputing the hot water part, just the steam. If your machine's emitting steam into the portafilter, I think Gaggia would want to know about that. Steam SHOULD come through the steam wand, not the showerhead. And steam and hot water don't go hand in hand when the water isn't hot enough to become steam. Go over to alt.coffee and ask people there about making espresso with steam. There are people there who sell and repair espresso machines; they'll tell you (as they've reiterated time and time again) that steam does not pass through the ground coffee. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and > vapor are interchangeable. At the point that you see it, it's not steam. The white cloud is steam that has cooled and condensed. At best, even if you say that steam and water vapor are interchangeable, then both are invisible and the white cloud that you see still isn't steam. As the quote from Argonne National Laboratory stated: "Water vapor (steam) is colorless, and the gas that is IMMEDIATELY outside of the kettle spout. The "cloud" or mist is water vapor that has condensed into liquid. It often takes on a foggy appearance." So, what you're seeing coming out of your espresso machine still isn't steam: it's a cloud of *liquid* water. > Main Entry: 1steam > Pronunciation: 'stEm > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch > stoom steam > 1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance > 2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to > the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of > water vapor > 3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for > heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : > active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales > began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up > emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> > 4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer Dictionaries list usage, not necessarily PROPER usage. Remember that quote from Jesse Sheidlower (North American Editor of the Oxford English Dictionary) that I posted? "Dictionaries, in general, do not dictate usage: they reflect the usage that exists in the language." People often call the white stuff coming out of locomotives "steam." That doesn't mean that it *is* steam. People also call the white mist that comes out of their mouths on a cold day, "steam." It isn't. Besides, at best it's semantics. The underlying issue was: what was coming out of your espresso machine. It wasn't water raised above the boiling point. > If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and > steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 > buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. > And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more > expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't > have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my > Gaggia has a relay and a pump. I wasn't disputing the hot water part, just the steam. If your machine's emitting steam into the portafilter, I think Gaggia would want to know about that. Steam SHOULD come through the steam wand, not the showerhead. And steam and hot water don't go hand in hand when the water isn't hot enough to become steam. Go over to alt.coffee and ask people there about making espresso with steam. There are people there who sell and repair espresso machines; they'll tell you (as they've reiterated time and time again) that steam does not pass through the ground coffee. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: Quoting something over and over and over doesn't make it correct. > Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The > condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. No. The condensed form is called "water." The invisible gas is steam. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: Quoting something over and over and over doesn't make it correct. > Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The > condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. No. The condensed form is called "water." The invisible gas is steam. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: Quoting something over and over and over doesn't make it correct. > Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The > condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. No. The condensed form is called "water." The invisible gas is steam. -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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Scott wrote:
> In article >, > Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>Steam is not invisible; what comes out of a steam locomotive? Steam and >>vapor are interchangeable. > > > At the point that you see it, it's not steam. The white cloud is steam > that has cooled and condensed. At best, even if you say that steam and > water vapor are interchangeable, then both are invisible and the white > cloud that you see still isn't steam. As the quote from Argonne National > Laboratory stated: "Water vapor (steam) is colorless, and the gas that > is IMMEDIATELY outside of the kettle spout. The "cloud" or mist is water > vapor that has condensed into liquid. It often takes on a foggy > appearance." So, what you're seeing coming out of your espresso machine > still isn't steam: it's a cloud of *liquid* water. > > > >>Main Entry: 1steam >>Pronunciation: 'stEm >>Function: noun >>Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch >>stoom steam >>1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance >>2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to >>the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of >>water vapor >>3 a : water vapor kept under pressure so as to supply energy for >>heating, cooking, or mechanical work; also : the power so generated b : >>active force : POWER, MOMENTUM <got there under his own steam> <sales >>began to pick up steam>; also : normal force <at full steam> c : pent-up >>emotional tension <needed to let off a little steam> >>4 a : STEAMER 2a b : travel by or a trip in a steamer > > > Dictionaries list usage, not necessarily PROPER usage. Remember that > quote from Jesse Sheidlower (North American Editor of the > Oxford English Dictionary) that I posted? "Dictionaries, in general, do > not dictate usage: they reflect the usage that exists in the language." > People often call the white stuff coming out of locomotives "steam." > That doesn't mean that it *is* steam. People also call the white mist > that comes out of their mouths on a cold day, "steam." It isn't. > > Besides, at best it's semantics. The underlying issue was: what was > coming out of your espresso machine. It wasn't water raised above the > boiling point. > > > >>If you go back and read my post, you'll see I stated very hot water and >>steam. Usually the two go hand in hand. The Gaggia that I have is a 300 >>buck machine. It produces quality expresso with a thick velvety crema. >>And as I told the op, I have observed what comes out of even more >>expensive commercial machines, and I see the same thing when I don't >>have any coffee in the output plate; very hot water and steam. BTW, my >>Gaggia has a relay and a pump. > > > I wasn't disputing the hot water part, just the steam. If your machine's > emitting steam into the portafilter, I think Gaggia would want to know > about that. Steam SHOULD come through the steam wand, not the > showerhead. And steam and hot water don't go hand in hand when the water > isn't hot enough to become steam. > > Go over to alt.coffee and ask people there about making espresso with > steam. There are people there who sell and repair espresso machines; > they'll tell you (as they've reiterated time and time again) that steam > does not pass through the ground coffee. > Yes, exactly my point. Very hot water and vapor / steam is what flows through that. And I get a very good crema (head,) with the machine. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Scott wrote:
> In article >, > Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: > > > Quoting something over and over and over doesn't make it correct. > > > >>Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The >>condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. > > > No. The condensed form is called "water." The invisible gas is steam. > Water (H2O) is a substance that can have three states. Ice = water. Steam = water. liquid water / condensed water = water. Again, it's semantics. You call it tomato, I call it tomatoe. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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Scott wrote:
> In article >, > Richard Periut > wrote: > > >>So here goes it again, for the umpteen time: > > > Quoting something over and over and over doesn't make it correct. > > > >>Water exists in 3 forms: Solid = ice, water = liquid, vapor = gas. The >>condensation of this gas is steam which is visible. > > > No. The condensed form is called "water." The invisible gas is steam. > Water (H2O) is a substance that can have three states. Ice = water. Steam = water. liquid water / condensed water = water. Again, it's semantics. You call it tomato, I call it tomatoe. Rich -- "Dum Spiro, Spero." As long as I breath, I hope. Cicero |
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"PENMART01" > wrote in message ... > > JimLane writes: > > > >Last I checked, and that about 10 years ago, the cost of RO also > >included a hidden cost as it cost several gallons of water per each > >gallon of RO, especially if it had a back-flush in it. > > > >Has the technology changed? How many gallons of water per gallon of RO > >in today's units? > > Most people waste more water brushing their teeth... I've yet to ever see > anyone shut off the tap while they brush. > Are you still peeping when they take a crap  ? |
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"PENMART01" > wrote in message ... > > JimLane writes: > > > >Last I checked, and that about 10 years ago, the cost of RO also > >included a hidden cost as it cost several gallons of water per each > >gallon of RO, especially if it had a back-flush in it. > > > >Has the technology changed? How many gallons of water per gallon of RO > >in today's units? > > Most people waste more water brushing their teeth... I've yet to ever see > anyone shut off the tap while they brush. > Are you still peeping when they take a crap ? |
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"PENMART01" > wrote in message ... > > JimLane writes: > > > >Last I checked, and that about 10 years ago, the cost of RO also > >included a hidden cost as it cost several gallons of water per each > >gallon of RO, especially if it had a back-flush in it. > > > >Has the technology changed? How many gallons of water per gallon of RO > >in today's units? > > Most people waste more water brushing their teeth... I've yet to ever see > anyone shut off the tap while they brush. > Are you still peeping when they take a crap ? |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Yes, exactly my point. Very hot water and vapor / steam is what flows > through that. > > And I get a very good crema (head,) with the machine. I don't know how you're interpreting what I wrote. I specifically stated "that steam does not pass through the ground coffee." -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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In article >,
Richard Periut > wrote: > Yes, exactly my point. Very hot water and vapor / steam is what flows > through that. > > And I get a very good crema (head,) with the machine. I don't know how you're interpreting what I wrote. I specifically stated "that steam does not pass through the ground coffee." -- to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net" please mail OT responses only |
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