http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/11/nyregion/11tip.html

The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip

By MARY SPICUZZA

Published: September 11, 2004


"When stopping in for a meal at Soprano's Italian and American Grill in Lake
George, N.Y., leave a good tip.

Or else.

A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his party
of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's mandatory
gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been added to his
bill.

The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and
photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60 miles
north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is a little
less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces a misdemeanor
charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could serve up to a year in
jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County sheriff.

Joe Soprano, who owns the restaurant, said that he and his wife, Tina, had
not intended to have Mr. Taveras arrested when they filed the complaint. But
Mr. Soprano was unapologetic yesterday.

"They shorted the check and didn't leave any money at all for the waitress,"
he said. "This is not a vendetta. This is just about standing up for my
waitresses."

Members of Mr. Taveras's party were "very rude" throughout their pizza
dinner, Mr. Soprano said, but they never complained about the food or
service. All of the menus have a notice about the mandatory gratuity, he
said, and the party was specifically reminded about the tipping policies.

But Mr. Taveras told The Glens Falls Post-Star that he had not been aware of
the mandatory tip and was surprised when Patrol Officer K.C. Glenn
approached them at a store near the restaurant.

"For us, it was a matter of principle," Mr. Taveras said in the article.
"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals. It killed our weekend."

Mr. Taveras said that his party was unsatisfied with the meal but thought
they had left a 10 percent tip, according to the newspaper.

Mr. Taveras is scheduled to appear at Lake George Town Court on Sept. 16.

Mr. Soprano said that many of his waitresses were college students and that
others were single mothers.

"This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's not for me," he
said. "These people work strictly for tips, and they work their tails off."

</>

"Gregory Morrow" wrote:
> The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip

<flabbergasted snip>

Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!

If this ever so thoughtful restaurant owner is so concerned about the
well-being of his waitresses, why doesn't he just pay them better instead of
alienating customers on his staff's behalf? What a maroon!

I hope future customers refuse to pay, litigate the overcharge and win.

"Gregory Morrow" wrote:
> The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip

<flabbergasted snip>

Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!

If this ever so thoughtful restaurant owner is so concerned about the
well-being of his waitresses, why doesn't he just pay them better instead of
alienating customers on his staff's behalf? What a maroon!

I hope future customers refuse to pay, litigate the overcharge and win.

"Dog3" <dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote in message
4...
> "Gregory Morrow" >
> ink.net:
>
> >
> > A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his
> > party of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's
> > mandatory gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been
> > added to his bill.
>
> This is the policy in many restaurants here. I've never seen anyone bitch
> about it.
>

But call it a service charge or something like that - a tip or gratutity is,
by definition, voluntary.

I don't care for the practice although I realize it is common for larger
groups. You are forced to reward poor service (when that happens) and, to
the extent that the waiter knows he will get a nice tip no matter what, his
motivation can only be reduced.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Dog3" <dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote in message
4...
> "Gregory Morrow" >
> ink.net:
>
> >
> > A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his
> > party of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's
> > mandatory gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been
> > added to his bill.
>
> This is the policy in many restaurants here. I've never seen anyone bitch
> about it.
>

But call it a service charge or something like that - a tip or gratutity is,
by definition, voluntary.

I don't care for the practice although I realize it is common for larger
groups. You are forced to reward poor service (when that happens) and, to
the extent that the waiter knows he will get a nice tip no matter what, his
motivation can only be reduced.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

pennyaline wrote:
> "Gregory Morrow" wrote:
>
>>The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip
>
>
> <flabbergasted snip>
>
> Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!
>
> If this ever so thoughtful restaurant owner is so concerned about the
> well-being of his waitresses, why doesn't he just pay them better instead of
> alienating customers on his staff's behalf? What a maroon!
>
> I hope future customers refuse to pay, litigate the overcharge and win.
>
>
In most European countries, a service charge is added to the bill and
has to be paid. It is part of the bill. If a guest is especially
satisfied with the service, he/she will leave a small "extra" for the
wait person, but can only complain to the owner or manager, but cannot
stiff the staff, if he/she is dissatisfied..

I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the summer
of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or slice of bread
you and your party consumed. The wait person knew how much there was
in the basket and counted what was left over. I don't remember how it
was in Switzerland, Italy and Germany, the other countries we visited.

In article >, "pennyaline"
> wrote:

> "Gregory Morrow" wrote:
> > The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip
> <flabbergasted snip>
> Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!

You've never seen that before? It is VERY common for an 18% gratuity to
be added to the check for any group larger than 8 (I think) around here.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> An update on 9/2/04; check the Fairs Fare tab.

In article >, "pennyaline"
> wrote:

> "Gregory Morrow" wrote:
> > The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip
> <flabbergasted snip>
> Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!

You've never seen that before? It is VERY common for an 18% gratuity to
be added to the check for any group larger than 8 (I think) around here.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> An update on 9/2/04; check the Fairs Fare tab.

In article > , Dog3
<dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote:
> Well, the restaurant was within it's rights to prosecute. It's considered
> theft of services here and there is a fine and possible jail time. OTOH,
> never have I heard of any establishment actually pursuing a patron like
> this.
> Michael

But what if the service sucks, Michael? It happened to a group of women
when we went to dinner. The waiter was rude, inattentive, and the
service was sorely lacking. With 18% added for the privilege. We were
not demanding anything beyond basic good service. We wondered if he was
po'd because we're not a big drinking group and there wasn't much of a
liquor tab. I don't know if anyone complained -- I didn't do anything
but grumble along with the rest. Shame on me.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> An update on 9/2/04; check the Fairs Fare tab.

> Margaret Suran
>
>I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the summer
>of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or slice of bread
>you and your party consumed. The wait person knew how much there was
>in the basket and counted what was left over.

Obviously what was left got served/sold to the next patrons. Be well assured,
part of what you ate was scraped from the plate of a prior patron... typical
Europeans, not very sanitary.. and extremely picayune.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

> Margaret Suran
>
>I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the summer
>of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or slice of bread
>you and your party consumed. The wait person knew how much there was
>in the basket and counted what was left over.

Obviously what was left got served/sold to the next patrons. Be well assured,
part of what you ate was scraped from the plate of a prior patron... typical
Europeans, not very sanitary.. and extremely picayune.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

Dog3 <dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote in
4:

> "Peter Aitken" >
> :
>
>>
>> But call it a service charge or something like that - a tip or
>> gratutity is, by definition, voluntary.
>
> The problem with service charge is; Some patrons will not notice
> it and tip on top of it. At least in the US.

In Europe and in Québec you often have a 15% service charge. Everyone
knows this (or ought to) as well as Federal and provincial tax and tax
on alcohol, where applicable.

Gratuities are usually, and should be, calculated on the unaugmented
value of the meal.

--

German to Picasso in front of Guernica: Did you do this?
Picasso to German in front of Guernica: No, it was you.

Dog3 <dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote in
4:

> "Peter Aitken" >
> :
>
>>
>> But call it a service charge or something like that - a tip or
>> gratutity is, by definition, voluntary.
>
> The problem with service charge is; Some patrons will not notice
> it and tip on top of it. At least in the US.

In Europe and in Québec you often have a 15% service charge. Everyone
knows this (or ought to) as well as Federal and provincial tax and tax
on alcohol, where applicable.

Gratuities are usually, and should be, calculated on the unaugmented
value of the meal.

--

German to Picasso in front of Guernica: Did you do this?
Picasso to German in front of Guernica: No, it was you.

>Dog3 wrote:
>>
>>"Peter Aitken" wrote:
>> But call it a service charge or something like that - a tip or
>> gratutity is, by definition, voluntary.
>
>The problem with service charge is; Some patrons will not notice it and tip
>on top of it. At least in the US. I've been out with large parties before,
>where the waiter was terribly dishonest. The menu stated 18% added to
>parties of 5 or more. When the credit card slip arrived, nothing on the
>slip indicated a tip. So, the host of our party wound up double tipping.

A service charge is not a gratuity. Restaurants add a service charge for
larger partys because larger groups tend to dawdle, they tend to occupy
valuable table space way past their welcome. Smart restauranteers will after
dinner lure the party to the bar, with the offering of a free round... knowing
full well that the majority of the group intended to toss back a few anyway,
but at least now the table can be used for others. Unless it actually says
"gratuity" then it is not, and the server does not get any portion thereof.
When dining at an establishment that adds a service charge (or any restaurant
for that matter) the wise diner slips the server their gratuity discreetly,
right into their hand.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in
message ink.net...
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/11/nyregion/11tip.html
>
[snip]

> A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his
> party
> of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's mandatory
> gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been added to his
> bill.
>
> The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and
> photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60
> miles
> north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is a little
> less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces a
> misdemeanor
> charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could serve up to a year in
> jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County sheriff.
>
> Mr. Soprano said that many of his waitresses were college students and
> that
> others were single mothers.
>
> "This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's not for me," he
> said. "These people work strictly for tips, and they work their tails
> off."
>
(Really trying to subdue a major rant!)
Now you went and did it. This subject is one of my pet peeves, if ever
there was one.

What the *#&^ is a "mandatory gratuity"???? A gratuity is your measure of
appreciation of services, NOT a required surcharge to subsidize under-paid
staff!!

Mr Soprano says, "This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's
not for me. .........These people [many of them students and single moms]
work strictly for tips, and they work their tails off."

So, HE is the one not paying for their services! AND expecting to pass the
responsibility on to the diner, regardless of the level of "gratitude" you
feel toward your server. ??? After all, the level of service in a
restaurant can make or break its reputation and volume of business,
regardless of the quality of food.

I think servers who are professional should be paid a decent wage and
tipping should truly be a gratuity. In a perfect world, anyway. I'll try
to find an article I read on how mandatory tipping policy was conned on
Amercan diners, proported to be a French tradition, though it never was so.

Imagine standing at a market check-out... "Sir, that will be another 18%
because your purchase is so large and our baggers are really sweating on
this one." Most places give a DISCOUNT for larger purchases.

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in
message ink.net...
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/11/nyregion/11tip.html
>
[snip]

> A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his
> party
> of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's mandatory
> gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been added to his
> bill.
>
> The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and
> photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60
> miles
> north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is a little
> less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces a
> misdemeanor
> charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could serve up to a year in
> jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County sheriff.
>
> Mr. Soprano said that many of his waitresses were college students and
> that
> others were single mothers.
>
> "This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's not for me," he
> said. "These people work strictly for tips, and they work their tails
> off."
>
(Really trying to subdue a major rant!)
Now you went and did it. This subject is one of my pet peeves, if ever
there was one.

What the *#&^ is a "mandatory gratuity"???? A gratuity is your measure of
appreciation of services, NOT a required surcharge to subsidize under-paid
staff!!

Mr Soprano says, "This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's
not for me. .........These people [many of them students and single moms]
work strictly for tips, and they work their tails off."

So, HE is the one not paying for their services! AND expecting to pass the
responsibility on to the diner, regardless of the level of "gratitude" you
feel toward your server. ??? After all, the level of service in a
restaurant can make or break its reputation and volume of business,
regardless of the quality of food.

I think servers who are professional should be paid a decent wage and
tipping should truly be a gratuity. In a perfect world, anyway. I'll try
to find an article I read on how mandatory tipping policy was conned on
Amercan diners, proported to be a French tradition, though it never was so.

Imagine standing at a market check-out... "Sir, that will be another 18%
because your purchase is so large and our baggers are really sweating on
this one." Most places give a DISCOUNT for larger purchases.

In article >, Cheryl Perkins
> wrote:

> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
> > But what if the service sucks, Michael? It happened to a group of
> > women when we went to dinner. The waiter was rude, inattentive,
> > and the service was sorely lacking. With 18% added for the
> > privilege. We were not demanding anything beyond basic good
> > service. We wondered if he was po'd because we're not a big
> > drinking group and there wasn't much of a liquor tab. I don't know
> > if anyone complained -- I didn't do anything but grumble along with
> > the rest. Shame on me.
>
> You don't go back, with or without mentioning to the manager why you
> won't be back. And, of course, you tell all your friends and
> co-workers about the poor service.
>
> You don't need to use a tip to deal with poor service.

We did tell the woman who recommended the place to us -- we had taken
over her B&B for the weekend. The place has since closed. Whether or
not it had anything to do with a change in overall service is unknown to
me; the owners may have decided to do something else. It had enjoyed a
fine reputation when we went there.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> An update on 9/11/04; check the Hello
tab for Fire Muster pics.

Margaret Suran wrote:

> In most European countries, a service charge is added to the bill and
> has to be paid. It is part of the bill. If a guest is especially
> satisfied with the service, he/she will leave a small "extra" for the
> wait person, but can only complain to the owner or manager, but cannot
> stiff the staff, if he/she is dissatisfied..

Hmmm. Seems like most Europeans have belittled the US for the tipping
thing, because they pay their staff a living wage. So much for that.

> I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the summer
> of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or slice of bread
> you and your party consumed. The wait person knew how much there was
> in the basket and counted what was left over.

(laughing) That sounds really icky. So not only did the patrons paw
through the basket, so did the staff. YUMMY! Anyway, that's pretty
silly. I'll never be in Austria, but if I was to, they can keep their
rolls.

I believe that reserving rolls to other patrons is illegal here.

nancy

Margaret Suran wrote:

> In most European countries, a service charge is added to the bill and
> has to be paid. It is part of the bill. If a guest is especially
> satisfied with the service, he/she will leave a small "extra" for the
> wait person, but can only complain to the owner or manager, but cannot
> stiff the staff, if he/she is dissatisfied..

Hmmm. Seems like most Europeans have belittled the US for the tipping
thing, because they pay their staff a living wage. So much for that.

> I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the summer
> of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or slice of bread
> you and your party consumed. The wait person knew how much there was
> in the basket and counted what was left over.

(laughing) That sounds really icky. So not only did the patrons paw
through the basket, so did the staff. YUMMY! Anyway, that's pretty
silly. I'll never be in Austria, but if I was to, they can keep their
rolls.

I believe that reserving rolls to other patrons is illegal here.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
> Margaret Suran wrote:
>

>> I don't know about now, but when I was last in Europe, in the
>> summer of 1965, in Austria there was a charge for each roll or
>> slice of bread you and your party consumed. The wait person knew
>> how much there was in the basket and counted what was left over.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> (laughing) That sounds really icky. So not only did the patrons
> paw through the basket, so did the staff. YUMMY! Anyway, that's
> pretty silly. I'll never be in Austria, but if I was to, they can
> keep their rolls.
>
> I believe that reserving rolls to other patrons is illegal here.
>
> nancy


Just as you would not pour your own wine from the bottle on the table,
you would not grab your own bread or roll from the basket, but wait
for the server to do so. The rolls and breads were served with
tongs. In the less fancy places, the waiter would bring a "community"
basket and mark down the number of rolls/bread ordered, just as he
would any other food. He or she would use a pair of tongs to serve
them. Nothing really icky about it. Please, Nancy, do not be afraid
to go into an Austrian restaurant. )

Here, some of the fine restaurants also have the waiter or a special
wait person go around with a bread basket, only here the bread and
rolls do not carry an extra charge.

I'm not a business tax expert, but

it would seem that
if the service charge is a mandatory fee,
then it would be taxable income to the business.

And if the business isn't reporting it.......


If the "service charge" is a tip,
then its payment should be optional.

How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?

<rj>

>If the "service charge" is a tip,
>then its payment should be optional.
>
>How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?
>
><rj>

It's a service charge, not a tip. A service charge is tantamount to the line
on your auto repair bill that says "labor"... in essence, by including a
service charge the restaurant is requiring it's patrons to pay their employee's
wages. Any business has a right to charge for service, same as your friendly
auto repair shop has a right to charge for labor. I'd say your only legal
recourse is to not patronize those sorts of dining establishments... when
enough people do likewise the practice of billing separately for product and
service will die... but be well assured, you'd still pay a service charge, in
higher prices on the menu.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

"Dog3" wrote:
> This is the policy in many restaurants here. I've never seen anyone bitch
> about it.

I guess I've just been lucky... not having to pick up the tab and all. But
still, it's a ridiculous practice.


> Well, I think a year in jail is a tad bit 'stiff'

It's outrageous.


> So Mr. Soprano is an asshole.

Shur 'nuff.


> This just about sums it up. They probably ran the wait and bus staff to
> death. As I said above. Asshole.

Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"? How about at least
sometimes right? When then how about there will always be people we don't
like to work with, but we still have to?


> P.I.T.Y - Read the menu and you'll see it on there.

It still doesn't make it right. This is the service industry, for crying out
loud. The right to a good tip is not guaranteed, nor should there be license
for a proprietor to mark up prices in the name of "gratuity."


> Should have talked to management.

Should have told him to shove it up his rear.


> I really think this is absurd.

Yes, the whole issue is for the birds.


> Well, the restaurant was within it's rights to prosecute. It's considered
> theft of services here and there is a fine and possible jail time. OTOH,
> never have I heard of any establishment actually pursuing a patron like
> this.

A gratuity is just that: gratuitous, or according to Webster:

Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&-'tü-&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ities
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service;
especially : TIP

It is not guaranteed, nor obliged, nor mandated. Manipulating the law to
define failure/refusal to pay unnecessary fees as a crime is abominable.
Next, not leaving a tip in ANY establishment will be a crime.

This is certainly a product of what passes for "customer service" nowadays.
It's come to mean what the customer is willing to do to make the service
person's job less inconvenient, and by no means should it be that way. That
you would support this abrogation of your expectations through your tacit
acceptance of it is appalling to me.

"Dog3" wrote:
> This is the policy in many restaurants here. I've never seen anyone bitch
> about it.

I guess I've just been lucky... not having to pick up the tab and all. But
still, it's a ridiculous practice.


> Well, I think a year in jail is a tad bit 'stiff'

It's outrageous.


> So Mr. Soprano is an asshole.

Shur 'nuff.


> This just about sums it up. They probably ran the wait and bus staff to
> death. As I said above. Asshole.

Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"? How about at least
sometimes right? When then how about there will always be people we don't
like to work with, but we still have to?


> P.I.T.Y - Read the menu and you'll see it on there.

It still doesn't make it right. This is the service industry, for crying out
loud. The right to a good tip is not guaranteed, nor should there be license
for a proprietor to mark up prices in the name of "gratuity."


> Should have talked to management.

Should have told him to shove it up his rear.


> I really think this is absurd.

Yes, the whole issue is for the birds.


> Well, the restaurant was within it's rights to prosecute. It's considered
> theft of services here and there is a fine and possible jail time. OTOH,
> never have I heard of any establishment actually pursuing a patron like
> this.

A gratuity is just that: gratuitous, or according to Webster:

Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&-'tü-&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ities
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service;
especially : TIP

It is not guaranteed, nor obliged, nor mandated. Manipulating the law to
define failure/refusal to pay unnecessary fees as a crime is abominable.
Next, not leaving a tip in ANY establishment will be a crime.

This is certainly a product of what passes for "customer service" nowadays.
It's come to mean what the customer is willing to do to make the service
person's job less inconvenient, and by no means should it be that way. That
you would support this abrogation of your expectations through your tacit
acceptance of it is appalling to me.

"Melba's Jammin'" wrote:
> You've never seen that before? It is VERY common for an 18% gratuity to
> be added to the check for any group larger than 8 (I think) around here.

Nope. Never seen it before.

But then, I've never taken a party of 6 to 8 people into a restaurant
without a reservation and without having negotiated the service and
(all-inclusive) price beforehand.

Please see my response to Dog3.

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:13:29 -0000, Dog3 <dognospam@adjfkdla;not>
arranged random neurons, so they looked like this:

>The problem with service charge is; Some patrons will not notice it and tip
>on top of it. At least in the US. I've been out with large parties before,
>where the waiter was terribly dishonest. The menu stated 18% added to
>parties of 5 or more. When the credit card slip arrived, nothing on the
>slip indicated a tip. So, the host of our party wound up double tipping.

<snip>

Which reminds me of a story about my daughter when she and her date
went to a fancy schmancy restaurant before the prom. (I only found out
about the incident at graduation when his parents sat a row behind
us.) The kid had his folk's credit card and had been counseled by his
father to tip fifteen percent. The kid didn't *hear* fifteen percent.
The kid *heard* "fifty percent." (Okay, this is a dumb kid and,
fortunately, not associated now nor will be with my gene pool.) The
server didn't blink and the parents only found out about it when they
got the credit card bill.

Query: What was the server's duty when confronted with a ridiculous
tip from a 17 year old boy? I'd have at least expected the server to
quietly take the kid aside and suggest that the tip was too much.

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret
had been as old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had
been as full as the waitress', it would have been a very
good dinner." Duncan Hines

To reply, remove replace "spaminator" with "cox"

"pennyaline" > wrote in message >...
> "Gregory Morrow" wrote:
> > The Waitress Isn't Kidding When She Tells You to Leave a Tip
>
> <flabbergasted snip>
>
> Are they for real? Mandatory gratuity?!?!?!
>
> If this ever so thoughtful restaurant owner is so concerned about the
> well-being of his waitresses, why doesn't he just pay them better instead of
> alienating customers on his staff's behalf? What a maroon!

Pardon my triviality, but, did you mean <marron'> as in <Ë fetto un marron'>?

D.M.

On 11 Sep 2004 18:13:20 -0700, (D. A.'Dutch' Martinich)
arranged random neurons, so they looked like this:

>Pardon my triviality, but, did you mean <marron'> as in <Ë fetto un marron'>?
>
No, the poster meant, "maroon." It's a Bugs Bunny reference (Bugs
Bunny?) - a cartoon character who says "maroon" meaning, "moron."

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"Never argue with an idiot.....they bring you down to their level and
then beat you with experience."

To reply, replace "spaminator" with "cox"

"Terry Pulliam Burd" > wrote in message
...
> Query: What was the server's duty when confronted with a ridiculous
> tip from a 17 year old boy? I'd have at least expected the server to
> quietly take the kid aside and suggest that the tip was too much.

He may well have thought that the kid was trying to impress his date, as 17
year olds are wont to do. OTOH, he may have just considered it his good
fortune to have served a kid who didn't have a clue -- and who made up for
the other 6 couples who didn't tip much that night.

Gabby

Gabby

pennyaline wrote:
>
> "Melba's Jammin'" wrote:
> > You've never seen that before? It is VERY common for an 18% gratuity to
> > be added to the check for any group larger than 8 (I think) around here.
>
> Nope. Never seen it before.

I think that large groups of people have a different dynamic than
your usual smaller group of friends. Seems like you always have
the cheapskate, the I only had the whatever and don't even consider
the tip, blah blah blah.

And, if the tip isn't figured in, plenty of people will think it was
taken care of (uh, by whom?) and just pay for their meal to the penny.

Better just to say, here's the tip.

nancy

Dog3 wrote:

> "Gregory Morrow" >
> ink.net:
>
>>A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his
>>party of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's
>>mandatory gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been
>>added to his bill.
>
> This is the policy in many restaurants here. I've never seen anyone bitch
> about it.

Hang on a minute...

The restaurant owner should have the right to tell you how much to
tip? Why the hell doesn't he pay his people what they're worth instead
of adding nearly 1/5 to the bill to get out of a proper payroll? As a
former restaurant owner, I think this policy is flat-out wrong. It
lets the owner off the paycheck hook and puts the waitstaff in
conflict with the customers. Lousy thinking.

If the customers are out of line, it's the management's responsibility
to deal with it. If they aren't, it's the server's job to please them
enough to want to leave a good tip. If the tip can be ordered, then
it's not a tip, it's a charge.

Charge what the food and service is worth and pay the people as they
should be paid. Forget that nonsense of "mandatory tipping." It's a
"mandatory option." Stupid on the face of it.

But I don't have strong feelings about it.

Pastorio





>
>
>>The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and
>>photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60
>>miles north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is
>>a little less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces
>>a misdemeanor charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could
>>serve up to a year in jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County
>>sheriff.
>
>
> Well, I think a year in jail is a tad bit 'stiff'
>
>
>
>
>>Joe Soprano, who owns the restaurant, said that he and his wife, Tina,
>>had not intended to have Mr. Taveras arrested when they filed the
>>complaint. But Mr. Soprano was unapologetic yesterday.
>
>
> So Mr. Soprano is an asshole.
>
>
>
>>"They shorted the check and didn't leave any money at all for the
>>waitress," he said. "This is not a vendetta. This is just about
>>standing up for my waitresses."
>>
>>Members of Mr. Taveras's party were "very rude" throughout their pizza
>>dinner, Mr. Soprano said, but they never complained about the food or
>>service. All of the menus have a notice about the mandatory gratuity,
>>he said, and the party was specifically reminded about the tipping
>>policies.
>
>
> This just about sums it up. They probably ran the wait and bus staff to
> death. As I said above. Asshole.
>
>
>
>>But Mr. Taveras told The Glens Falls Post-Star that he had not been
>>aware of the mandatory tip and was surprised when Patrol Officer K.C.
>>Glenn approached them at a store near the restaurant.
>>
>>"For us, it was a matter of principle," Mr. Taveras said in the
>>article. "They chased us down like a bunch of criminals. It killed our
>>weekend."
>
>
> P.I.T.Y - Read the menu and you'll see it on there.
>
>
>
>>Mr. Taveras said that his party was unsatisfied with the meal but
>>thought they had left a 10 percent tip, according to the newspaper.
>
>
> Should have talked to management.
>
>
>
>>Mr. Taveras is scheduled to appear at Lake George Town Court on Sept.
>>16.
>
>
> I really think this is absurd.
>
>
>
>>Mr. Soprano said that many of his waitresses were college students and
>>that others were single mothers.
>>
>>"This is for the hard-working people who work for me; it's not for
>>me," he said. "These people work strictly for tips, and they work
>>their tails off."
>
>
> Well, the restaurant was within it's rights to prosecute. It's considered
> theft of services here and there is a fine and possible jail time. OTOH,
> never have I heard of any establishment actually pursuing a patron like
> this.
>
> Michael

Margaret wrote:

> Just as you would not pour your own wine from the bottle on the table,
> you would not grab your own bread or roll from the basket, but wait
> for the server to do so.

In keeping with the discussion in the rest of the thread, what happens when
the server DOESN'T perform those duties? I've seen tables get "forgotten"
by the waitstaff on plenty of occasions. How long do you think it would be
reasonable to wait before pouring your own wine or grabbing a roll from the
basket? Or would you favor shouting, "MY WAITER HAS TAKEN A VACATION TO THE
BERMUDA TRIANGLE; WOULD *SOME* WAITER PLEASE COME OVER HERE AND POUR MY
WINE?"


> Here, some of the fine restaurants also have the waiter or a special
> wait person go around with a bread basket, only here the bread and
> rolls do not carry an extra charge.

I've seen that as well, but usually in restaurants which I'd grade as "upper
mediocre." I wonder how they handle bread service at that place which
serves the $84 roast chicken. :-)

Bob

"Dog3" wrote:
> "<RJ>" wrote:
> > I'm not a business tax expert, but
> >
> > it would seem that
> > if the service charge is a mandatory fee,
> > then it would be taxable income to the business.
> >
> > And if the business isn't reporting it.......
> >
> >
> > If the "service charge" is a tip,
> > then its payment should be optional.
> >
> > How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?
> >
> > <rj>
>
> Theft of services.

But if it's a gratuity, it's not a theft of services.

The customers are being robbed, not the business.

PENMART01 wrote:
>>If the "service charge" is a tip,
>>then its payment should be optional.
>>
>>How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?
>>
>><rj>
>
>
> It's a service charge, not a tip. A service charge is tantamount to the line
> on your auto repair bill that says "labor"... in essence, by including a
> service charge the restaurant is requiring it's patrons to pay their employee's
> wages. Any business has a right to charge for service, same as your friendly
> auto repair shop has a right to charge for labor. I'd say your only legal
> recourse is to not patronize those sorts of dining establishments... when
> enough people do likewise the practice of billing separately for product and
> service will die... but be well assured, you'd still pay a service charge, in
> higher prices on the menu.
>
>
> ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
> *********
> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
> Sheldon
> ````````````

I remember that as a waiter, NJ law allowing, a 15 % tip was allowed to
be waged on parties of six or more. Most conscientious patrons gave 20
to 30%.

The bummer were parties of 5 that would linger on, laughing, drinking
wine/beer, getting drunk, and at the end, either not tipping you at all
(after all, they spent their good money at the joint) or giving you 5
bucks.

There were waiters who would throw the miserable 5 bucks back at the
patrons, and some who made quite a scatological scandal--outside that is.

It got to the point that we would fight over certain ethnic and racial
groups that were famous for not tipping. Sad to say, we all established
a quota of allowed "groups" per day.

Rich

--
"Dum Spiro, Spero."

As long as I breath, I hope.

Cicero

In article > ,
dognospam@adjfkdla says...
> "<RJ>" >
> :
>
> >
> > I'm not a business tax expert, but
> >
> > it would seem that
> > if the service charge is a mandatory fee,
> > then it would be taxable income to the business.
> >
> > And if the business isn't reporting it.......
> >
> >
> > If the "service charge" is a tip,
> > then its payment should be optional.
> >
> > How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?
> >
> > <rj>
>
> Theft of services.

Not really. They get paid an hourly rate.

In article > ,
dognospam@adjfkdla says...
> "<RJ>" >
> :
>
> >
> > I'm not a business tax expert, but
> >
> > it would seem that
> > if the service charge is a mandatory fee,
> > then it would be taxable income to the business.
> >
> > And if the business isn't reporting it.......
> >
> >
> > If the "service charge" is a tip,
> > then its payment should be optional.
> >
> > How do you legally enforce payment of a tip ?
> >
> > <rj>
>
> Theft of services.

Not really. They get paid an hourly rate.

In article >, Terry Pulliam
Burd > wrote:
>The kid had his folk's credit card and had been counseled by his
> father to tip fifteen percent. The kid didn't *hear* fifteen percent.
> The kid *heard* "fifty percent." (Okay, this is a dumb kid and,
> fortunately, not associated now nor will be with my gene pool.) The
> server didn't blink and the parents only found out about it when they
> got the credit card bill.
>
> Query: What was the server's duty when confronted with a ridiculous
> tip from a 17 year old boy?

To say "Thank you VERY much."
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> An update on 9/11/04; check the Hello
tab for Fire Muster pics.

Gregory forwarded:

> The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and
> photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60
> miles north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is a
> little less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces a
> misdemeanor charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could serve up
> to a year in jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County sheriff.


Taveras got off easy. Anybody remember THIS story?

Customer stabbed, apparently over tip
Couple refused to pay billed gratuity; police arrest Clemmons man

By Lisa Hoppenjans
JOURNAL REPORTER

A man was stabbed in his back outside a Clemmons restaurant Friday night
after he failed to pay the tip that had been automatically included in the
bill for his wife's birthday dinner.

Anthony Wayne Palmer was attacked in the parking lot of the Sagebrush of
Clemmons Inc. on Lewisville-Clemmons Road by two customers, said Lt. Brad
Stanley of the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. The attack happened after
Palmer and his relatives paid tips less than the automatic gratuity included
in their checks, or left no tip at all, Stanley said.

(full story at
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Sa...=1031775110313)

Bob

Richard Periut wrote:

> It got to the point that we would fight over certain ethnic and racial
> groups that were famous for not tipping. Sad to say, we all established
> a quota of allowed "groups" per day.


Hate to admit it but it's true...

~john

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> In article > , Dog3
> <dognospam@adjfkdla;not> wrote:
>> Well, the restaurant was within it's rights to prosecute. It's
>> considered theft of services here and there is a fine and possible
>> jail time. OTOH, never have I heard of any establishment actually
>> pursuing a patron like this.
>> Michael
>
> But what if the service sucks, Michael? It happened to a group of
> women when we went to dinner. The waiter was rude, inattentive, and
> the
> service was sorely lacking. With 18% added for the privilege. We
> were not demanding anything beyond basic good service. We wondered
> if he was po'd because we're not a big drinking group and there
> wasn't much of a liquor tab. I don't know if anyone complained -- I
> didn't do anything
> but grumble along with the rest. Shame on me.

There is attentiveness and there is service and then there is abusing ones
server. As a former wait-person, I didn't appreciate every time I went to
the table of a party larger than 6 being asked to run and get something
else. There was NO built-in gratuity for tables of 6 or more. I just
brought you some butter, now you decide you need more sour cream. Okay,
fine. I just refilled all the water glasses and politely asked if anyone
needed more tea; no one spoke up; walk back by, now you need more tea and
rudely say NOW. Anyone need more coffee? Nope. Walk back by, we need
lemon and coffee. Bring lemons and coffee. We need cream. Excuse me, I
will bring it but you aren't my only customers. I'll treat you like you
are, but goddamit, a buck fifty in change for waiting hand and foot on 8 old
ladies in big hats and being your beck & call girl for a couple of hours
isn't gonna guarantee you jack but a polite smile next time around as I walk
past your table. Get your own goddamned coffee and tea. In fact, I'll show
you where the coffee station is and there are lemons and creamer there on
ice. You can keep your buck fitty. Better yet, invite those people to your
house instead; you can wait on them hand and foot and pretend you got paid
for doing so.