http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-lit...,4014777.story

As it should be.

If it's mandatory, it's not a tip, it's a service charge.

Pastorio

"Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
last week it was a matter of principle. "

arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?

m

Grizzman wrote:
> "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
> last week it was a matter of principle. "
>
> arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
>
> m
>
>

It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."


jim

JimLane wrote:
> Grizzman wrote:
>
>> "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
>> last week it was a matter of principle. "
>>
>> arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>
> It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
> do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."
>
>
> jim


I'll certainly never eat there...

Best regards,
Bob

In article >,
JimLane > wrote:

> Grizzman wrote:
> > "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
> > last week it was a matter of principle. "
> >
> > arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
> >
> > m
> >
> >
>
> It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
> do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."
>
>
> jim

I know that I'd never eat there!!!!!

What a bunch of snobs!

K.
--
Men have two emotions: Hungry and Horny. If you see him without an
erection make him a sandwich. -- Anon.

JimLane wrote:
> Grizzman wrote:
>
>> "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
>> last week it was a matter of principle. "
>>
>> arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>
> It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
> do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."
>
>
> jim


I'll certainly never eat there...

Best regards,
Bob

In article >,
JimLane > wrote:

> Grizzman wrote:
> > "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
> > last week it was a matter of principle. "
> >
> > arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
> >
> > m
> >
> >
>
> It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
> do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."
>
>
> jim

I know that I'd never eat there!!!!!

What a bunch of snobs!

K.
--
Men have two emotions: Hungry and Horny. If you see him without an
erection make him a sandwich. -- Anon.

Grizzman wrote:
> "Soprano could not be reached yesterday but his wife, Tina Soprano, said
> last week it was a matter of principle. "
>
> arrested over a principle? can you say "call my attorney"?
>
> m
>
>

It would be interesting to see what the negative publicity has done/will
do to their business and to the number of people refusing to pay the "tip."


jim

In article >,
"Bob (this one)" > wrote:

> http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-lit...,4014777.story
>
> As it should be.
>
> If it's mandatory, it's not a tip, it's a service charge.
>
> Pastorio
>

yay!!! :-)

IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
I thought the average was 15% for good service, 10% for so so service
and if I get REALLY bad service, I leave 2 pennies on the table!

For excellent, top rate service (like I got one night at Magic Time
Machine for my mother's birthday), I'll often tip up to 25%. :-)

I believe in rewarding effort.....

K.
--
Men have two emotions: Hungry and Horny. If you see him without an
erection make him a sandwich. -- Anon.

One time on Usenet, Katra > said:

<snip>

> and if I get REALLY bad service, I leave 2 pennies on the table!

This reminds me of an incident that happened in the early 70's,
when I was pretty young. My mother and I had a nice lunch at a
local diner, and I really like the waitress. On the way out, I
put some money on the table for her, just as my mom had done.
It was all that I had, but since I was about 7 years old, it was
a mere two cents. I thought I was being nice, but my mother was
horrified when I told her about it later -- she said what I had
done was terribly insulting, even though she had left a decent
tip herself. I wonder what that long-ago waitress thought when
she saw those two pennies...


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

J.J. in WA wrote:

> This reminds me of an incident that happened in the early 70's,
> when I was pretty young. My mother and I had a nice lunch at a
> local diner, and I really like the waitress. On the way out, I
> put some money on the table for her, just as my mom had done.
> It was all that I had, but since I was about 7 years old, it was
> a mere two cents. I thought I was being nice, but my mother was
> horrified when I told her about it later -- she said what I had
> done was terribly insulting even though she had left a decent
> tip herself. I wonder what that long-ago waitress thought when
> she saw those two pennies...


She probably thought you were a sweet little boy, smiled to herself and
never gave it another thought. A penny left on the table can be an
insult if there are other indications that the customer means to be
insulting, but it's not necessarily an insult if everything else is OK.
I've waitressed. I've seen people pick up change off the floor and
leave it on the table or empty their pockets of change. As long as the
all-over tip is acceptable, I just put the change in my pocket.


I'd love to see a world where tipping at restaurants was like tipping at
the car mechanic's, i.e., non-existent. When I get my brakes fixed or
my oil changed, I don't entice the mechanic to do a good job with the
promise of a tip. I expect him to do a good job, or I don't go back
there again. If, for some reason, the service isn't acceptable or I
feel that I've been treated rudely, I'd go straight to the owner or
manager. I'm sure I wouldn't get away with saying "the mechanic was
impatient and abrupt so I'm driving off with the new radiator without
paying for it."


Thus with restaurants. The servers should give good service because
that's their job as employees of the restaurant. The restaurant should
pay them because they're employees the same way garage mechanics are
paid. If there's a problem with the service, the customer should
complain to the management or not return to the restaurant. At least,
that's the way I'd do it if I could click my heels together three times
and get what I want. Last I checked, no one was letting me run the world.


With that in mind, I think a mandatory service charge, called a service
charge, and put clearly on the menu, is a good idea. Ideally, it would
be figured into the price of the food, but anything that removes
arbitrary nature of the tip appeals to me. For this idea to work, the
service charge would be on the bill, and anything extra would have to be
returned to the customer with an explanation that the bill has been paid
in full.


Bad service can be a result of rude or incompetent servers, but it can
also be endemic of a badly managed restaurant. Someone gave the example
of the customer asking for clean silverware and not getting it. I
remember that one.


The restaurant didn't have enough silverware for the busy lunch period.
The dishwashers couldn't run the dishwashing machines fast enough to
supply clean silver. Waitresses started hoarding silver. It was worth
it to hand wash the silver themselves so they'd have it for their next
customers rather than put it in the bus tray and risk losing it. Or
they'd try to gather up enough silver first thing in the morning to last
them all day. The waitresses set their tables, but other waitresses
would take clean silver off the set tables from another section when
there wasn't any in the clean silver trays. Alliances would form as
waitresses would give clean silver to their friends but not people they
didn't like.


I was young and naive and didn't realize the nuances of what was going
on. I wouldn't have been any good at the game if I had understood. I
did sometimes yell at or beg the dishwashers to give me silverware when
the customers asked me for it, but the dishwashers shrugged their
shoulders or laughed in my face. Other waitresses might have gotten
silverware by giving the dishwashers a portion of their tips or sexual
favors. I'm glad I don't know that if that was the case. I can tell
you that the few weeks I kept that job was way too long, that I was a
terrible waitress, too dreamy and unaware, and that there was no way any
of that could be explained to a customer who just made a simple request
for clean silverware.


--Lia

J.J. in WA wrote:

> This reminds me of an incident that happened in the early 70's,
> when I was pretty young. My mother and I had a nice lunch at a
> local diner, and I really like the waitress. On the way out, I
> put some money on the table for her, just as my mom had done.
> It was all that I had, but since I was about 7 years old, it was
> a mere two cents. I thought I was being nice, but my mother was
> horrified when I told her about it later -- she said what I had
> done was terribly insulting even though she had left a decent
> tip herself. I wonder what that long-ago waitress thought when
> she saw those two pennies...


She probably thought you were a sweet little boy, smiled to herself and
never gave it another thought. A penny left on the table can be an
insult if there are other indications that the customer means to be
insulting, but it's not necessarily an insult if everything else is OK.
I've waitressed. I've seen people pick up change off the floor and
leave it on the table or empty their pockets of change. As long as the
all-over tip is acceptable, I just put the change in my pocket.


I'd love to see a world where tipping at restaurants was like tipping at
the car mechanic's, i.e., non-existent. When I get my brakes fixed or
my oil changed, I don't entice the mechanic to do a good job with the
promise of a tip. I expect him to do a good job, or I don't go back
there again. If, for some reason, the service isn't acceptable or I
feel that I've been treated rudely, I'd go straight to the owner or
manager. I'm sure I wouldn't get away with saying "the mechanic was
impatient and abrupt so I'm driving off with the new radiator without
paying for it."


Thus with restaurants. The servers should give good service because
that's their job as employees of the restaurant. The restaurant should
pay them because they're employees the same way garage mechanics are
paid. If there's a problem with the service, the customer should
complain to the management or not return to the restaurant. At least,
that's the way I'd do it if I could click my heels together three times
and get what I want. Last I checked, no one was letting me run the world.


With that in mind, I think a mandatory service charge, called a service
charge, and put clearly on the menu, is a good idea. Ideally, it would
be figured into the price of the food, but anything that removes
arbitrary nature of the tip appeals to me. For this idea to work, the
service charge would be on the bill, and anything extra would have to be
returned to the customer with an explanation that the bill has been paid
in full.


Bad service can be a result of rude or incompetent servers, but it can
also be endemic of a badly managed restaurant. Someone gave the example
of the customer asking for clean silverware and not getting it. I
remember that one.


The restaurant didn't have enough silverware for the busy lunch period.
The dishwashers couldn't run the dishwashing machines fast enough to
supply clean silver. Waitresses started hoarding silver. It was worth
it to hand wash the silver themselves so they'd have it for their next
customers rather than put it in the bus tray and risk losing it. Or
they'd try to gather up enough silver first thing in the morning to last
them all day. The waitresses set their tables, but other waitresses
would take clean silver off the set tables from another section when
there wasn't any in the clean silver trays. Alliances would form as
waitresses would give clean silver to their friends but not people they
didn't like.


I was young and naive and didn't realize the nuances of what was going
on. I wouldn't have been any good at the game if I had understood. I
did sometimes yell at or beg the dishwashers to give me silverware when
the customers asked me for it, but the dishwashers shrugged their
shoulders or laughed in my face. Other waitresses might have gotten
silverware by giving the dishwashers a portion of their tips or sexual
favors. I'm glad I don't know that if that was the case. I can tell
you that the few weeks I kept that job was way too long, that I was a
terrible waitress, too dreamy and unaware, and that there was no way any
of that could be explained to a customer who just made a simple request
for clean silverware.


--Lia

J.J. in WA wrote:

> This reminds me of an incident that happened in the early 70's,
> when I was pretty young. My mother and I had a nice lunch at a
> local diner, and I really like the waitress. On the way out, I
> put some money on the table for her, just as my mom had done.
> It was all that I had, but since I was about 7 years old, it was
> a mere two cents. I thought I was being nice, but my mother was
> horrified when I told her about it later -- she said what I had
> done was terribly insulting even though she had left a decent
> tip herself. I wonder what that long-ago waitress thought when
> she saw those two pennies...


She probably thought you were a sweet little boy, smiled to herself and
never gave it another thought. A penny left on the table can be an
insult if there are other indications that the customer means to be
insulting, but it's not necessarily an insult if everything else is OK.
I've waitressed. I've seen people pick up change off the floor and
leave it on the table or empty their pockets of change. As long as the
all-over tip is acceptable, I just put the change in my pocket.


I'd love to see a world where tipping at restaurants was like tipping at
the car mechanic's, i.e., non-existent. When I get my brakes fixed or
my oil changed, I don't entice the mechanic to do a good job with the
promise of a tip. I expect him to do a good job, or I don't go back
there again. If, for some reason, the service isn't acceptable or I
feel that I've been treated rudely, I'd go straight to the owner or
manager. I'm sure I wouldn't get away with saying "the mechanic was
impatient and abrupt so I'm driving off with the new radiator without
paying for it."


Thus with restaurants. The servers should give good service because
that's their job as employees of the restaurant. The restaurant should
pay them because they're employees the same way garage mechanics are
paid. If there's a problem with the service, the customer should
complain to the management or not return to the restaurant. At least,
that's the way I'd do it if I could click my heels together three times
and get what I want. Last I checked, no one was letting me run the world.


With that in mind, I think a mandatory service charge, called a service
charge, and put clearly on the menu, is a good idea. Ideally, it would
be figured into the price of the food, but anything that removes
arbitrary nature of the tip appeals to me. For this idea to work, the
service charge would be on the bill, and anything extra would have to be
returned to the customer with an explanation that the bill has been paid
in full.


Bad service can be a result of rude or incompetent servers, but it can
also be endemic of a badly managed restaurant. Someone gave the example
of the customer asking for clean silverware and not getting it. I
remember that one.


The restaurant didn't have enough silverware for the busy lunch period.
The dishwashers couldn't run the dishwashing machines fast enough to
supply clean silver. Waitresses started hoarding silver. It was worth
it to hand wash the silver themselves so they'd have it for their next
customers rather than put it in the bus tray and risk losing it. Or
they'd try to gather up enough silver first thing in the morning to last
them all day. The waitresses set their tables, but other waitresses
would take clean silver off the set tables from another section when
there wasn't any in the clean silver trays. Alliances would form as
waitresses would give clean silver to their friends but not people they
didn't like.


I was young and naive and didn't realize the nuances of what was going
on. I wouldn't have been any good at the game if I had understood. I
did sometimes yell at or beg the dishwashers to give me silverware when
the customers asked me for it, but the dishwashers shrugged their
shoulders or laughed in my face. Other waitresses might have gotten
silverware by giving the dishwashers a portion of their tips or sexual
favors. I'm glad I don't know that if that was the case. I can tell
you that the few weeks I kept that job was way too long, that I was a
terrible waitress, too dreamy and unaware, and that there was no way any
of that could be explained to a customer who just made a simple request
for clean silverware.


--Lia

Katra wrote:

> IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> I thought the average was 15% for good service,

That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
mean.

Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
quibbling about, if you do the math.

What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
more annoying than anything.

nancy

One time on Usenet, said:

<snip>

> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever.

I don't think I've ever been in such a large party that the tip was
automatic, although I've seen in on many a menu over the years.

> Just because they wait for a living does not make them slackers.

Quite true -- a professional waitperson wants you to come back,
it's job security.

> More often I've noticed my co-diners are more annoying than
> anything.

Arg, too true! Although I did have an especially annoying waitress
once -- she ate half of our appetizer! She also happened to be my
mother-in-law... <just teasing>


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.
>
> nancy

Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
(Which is why I return the favor.)

kili

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Katra wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> > That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> > lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> > mean.
> >
> > Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> > quibbling about, if you do the math.
> >
> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> > more annoying than anything.
> >
> > nancy
>
> Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
> party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
> does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
> people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
> (Which is why I return the favor.)
>
> kili
>
>

I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
dispute that?

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:

> I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
> restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
> won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
> dispute that?

I think you'd be taking it too personally. We're talking about large
groups. The dynamics of getting a proper tip (and! the tax!) out of
a bunch of people who maybe work together but maybe don't have the
same sensibilities about how to tip/whatever, I've seen it all!

There's always the person who wants to pay to the penny for what they
ordered. Then who had a drink and who just had water. A nightmare.
Our secretary used to handle that well, she'd take care of everything.

Now, if it's just you and your wife, or some friends, and they
included the tip, that would seriously annoy me. But when you call
ahead, it's just better for everyone involved that there's no question
about the tip.

Funny, reminded my of my fil's 80th. We surprised him with a bd
dinner. They didn't specify the tip even though we had maybe 12
people.

Well, this was the first and only time I met one of my sil's husband.
What an ass. Everything was free, the flight in, the hotel, and I
was paying for dinner (not that anyone knew that), but he sure
wouldn't, being broke. He starts snapping his fingers, ordering
around the staff, then he ordered appetizers for his side of the
table. Hello, I would happen to like an appetizer. So the waitress
had to make two trips.

I was fuming, but you get the general idea how things went. Anyway,
we brought our own cake and the staff served it up for us. All was
well. Might be the only 100% tip I ever gave.

My point is, it's a mixed bag with a large group. Management is
right to protect their staff in these situations, I really think so.

nancy

Peter Aitken wrote:

> I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
> restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
> won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
> dispute that?

I think you'd be taking it too personally. We're talking about large
groups. The dynamics of getting a proper tip (and! the tax!) out of
a bunch of people who maybe work together but maybe don't have the
same sensibilities about how to tip/whatever, I've seen it all!

There's always the person who wants to pay to the penny for what they
ordered. Then who had a drink and who just had water. A nightmare.
Our secretary used to handle that well, she'd take care of everything.

Now, if it's just you and your wife, or some friends, and they
included the tip, that would seriously annoy me. But when you call
ahead, it's just better for everyone involved that there's no question
about the tip.

Funny, reminded my of my fil's 80th. We surprised him with a bd
dinner. They didn't specify the tip even though we had maybe 12
people.

Well, this was the first and only time I met one of my sil's husband.
What an ass. Everything was free, the flight in, the hotel, and I
was paying for dinner (not that anyone knew that), but he sure
wouldn't, being broke. He starts snapping his fingers, ordering
around the staff, then he ordered appetizers for his side of the
table. Hello, I would happen to like an appetizer. So the waitress
had to make two trips.

I was fuming, but you get the general idea how things went. Anyway,
we brought our own cake and the staff served it up for us. All was
well. Might be the only 100% tip I ever gave.

My point is, it's a mixed bag with a large group. Management is
right to protect their staff in these situations, I really think so.

nancy

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Katra wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> > That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> > lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> > mean.
> >
> > Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> > quibbling about, if you do the math.
> >
> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> > more annoying than anything.
> >
> > nancy
>
> Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
> party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
> does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
> people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
> (Which is why I return the favor.)
>
> kili
>
>

I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
dispute that?

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Nancy Young wrote:

>>IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
>>I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.

Yes, a bit low to me also.
I want to extend this ranting a bit to include the
tips paid to delivery people also. Where I work
we all order food from a limited selection of
places nightly. They're hardly haute cuisine
joints admittedly, but I can't believe how some
folks abuse this service. They order, and when the
delivery person comes (and always with separate
checks prepared) wayyyy too many of these people
keep them waiting ("I'll be right there, I have to
go get my money from my locker") and worse yet,
then barely tip anything for their efforts. They
knew the food was ordered, so they had time to get
their money. I'm embarrassed when the delivery
person is held up almost 10 minutes or so after
everyone else has paid for their order and then
these folks don't compensate in any fashion or
even apologize! And some are just plain cheap
tippers even if they're ready with their money.
Goomba

>> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.

No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
the waitstaff follows it linearly.

Neil

WardNA wrote:
>
> >> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> >That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.
>
> No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
> the waitstaff follows it linearly.
>
> Neil

Not here.

nancy

WardNA wrote:
>
> >> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> >That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.
>
> No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
> the waitstaff follows it linearly.
>
> Neil

Not here.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers.


Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.


More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.


This seems to be a general trend...

OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
casting the dogs adrift or something.

People these daze...

--
Best
Greg "she didn't get in..."

Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:

> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers.
>
> Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
> bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
> being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
> up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.

> This seems to be a general trend...
>
> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv.

Well, that does make sense.

> Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol).

Maybe she could call the pope and get a dispensation.

> What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.


Stupidity is exacerbated by cell phones Nancy...it's a whole new
dichotomy...

--
Best
Greg

Nancy Young wrote:

> I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.


Stupidity is exacerbated by cell phones Nancy...it's a whole new
dichotomy...

--
Best
Greg

In article . net>,
"Gregory Morrow" >
wrote:

> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

The state and town parks where I go for walks and bike rides have
clearly posted signs that say "No dogs." Yet there are invariably at
least a half dozen people with dogs--and always at least a few without
leashes for the dogs.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:

> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers.
>
> Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
> bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
> being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
> up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.

> This seems to be a general trend...
>
> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv.

Well, that does make sense.

> Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol).

Maybe she could call the pope and get a dispensation.

> What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.

nancy

In article . net>,
"Gregory Morrow" >
wrote:

> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

The state and town parks where I go for walks and bike rides have
clearly posted signs that say "No dogs." Yet there are invariably at
least a half dozen people with dogs--and always at least a few without
leashes for the dogs.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

One time on Usenet, said:

<snip>

> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever.

I don't think I've ever been in such a large party that the tip was
automatic, although I've seen in on many a menu over the years.

> Just because they wait for a living does not make them slackers.

Quite true -- a professional waitperson wants you to come back,
it's job security.

> More often I've noticed my co-diners are more annoying than
> anything.

Arg, too true! Although I did have an especially annoying waitress
once -- she ate half of our appetizer! She also happened to be my
mother-in-law... <just teasing>


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

>> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.

No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
the waitstaff follows it linearly.

Neil

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.
>
> nancy

Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
(Which is why I return the favor.)

kili

Nancy Young wrote:

> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers.


Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.


More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.


This seems to be a general trend...

OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
casting the dogs adrift or something.

People these daze...

--
Best
Greg "she didn't get in..."

Katra wrote:

> IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> I thought the average was 15% for good service,

That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
mean.

Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
quibbling about, if you do the math.

What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
more annoying than anything.

nancy

>> Not if he got bad service.....
>
>I agree but I don't think that was the case in this situation.

Obviously, both sides have their own versions of what the dispute was about.
The diner was obviously upset about SOMETHING about the service; the owner's
statement to the press that the diner (or his party) were obnoxious is HIS read
on the incident. The diner had a different view and expressed it by
discounting the tip.

(I still don't understand why a large party should pay a higher than average
percentage in a tip. The volume is greater, so one would expect a bulk
discount, not a surcharge.)

One interpretation that I haven't heard expressed is that the owner was
performing for the sake of his staff. He wanted to show the extent to which he
would back them up in a conflict, so he picked a fight with a patron who (in
his view) had given trouble to his staff.

Neil