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Kevintsheehy wrote:
> > BY the way, this is a pretty good restaurant, a McCormick & > Schmick's operation. I still go there maybe twice a month for > lunch and an occasional dinner. AND, the up charge long since > went away. McCormick & Schmick! I'm amazed. Were you able to figure out if the up charge was just something the server or bartender invented in an effort to steal or if the charge was something management tried for a while, then abandoned? --Lia |
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Goomba38 wrote:
> Ellie C wrote: > >> Gee, with tip cups showing up all over could it possibly be a symptom >> of the fact that people need to make more than $7 per hour? THat's a >> fine wage if you're a high school kid but there's lots of folks who >> have these jobs as their full time work. Could you live on $7 per hour? > > > Weren't jobs like this always incentive to finish school and find a > career that pays more? > Goomba > Well, sure. But there are some people who don't have the option of finishing school for one reason or another. And besides, we do need people to fill this sort of job and others like it. If everyone finished school who would pump gas, wait on tables, serve burgers, bag groceries, etc. It's s whole segment of the work population who are simply paid as little as can be gotten away with. |
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Goomba38 wrote:
> Ellie C wrote: > >> Gee, with tip cups showing up all over could it possibly be a symptom >> of the fact that people need to make more than $7 per hour? THat's a >> fine wage if you're a high school kid but there's lots of folks who >> have these jobs as their full time work. Could you live on $7 per hour? > > > Weren't jobs like this always incentive to finish school and find a > career that pays more? > Goomba > Well, sure. But there are some people who don't have the option of finishing school for one reason or another. And besides, we do need people to fill this sort of job and others like it. If everyone finished school who would pump gas, wait on tables, serve burgers, bag groceries, etc. It's s whole segment of the work population who are simply paid as little as can be gotten away with. |
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Goomba38 wrote:
> Ellie C wrote: > >> Gee, with tip cups showing up all over could it possibly be a symptom >> of the fact that people need to make more than $7 per hour? THat's a >> fine wage if you're a high school kid but there's lots of folks who >> have these jobs as their full time work. Could you live on $7 per hour? > > > Weren't jobs like this always incentive to finish school and find a > career that pays more? > Goomba > Well, sure. But there are some people who don't have the option of finishing school for one reason or another. And besides, we do need people to fill this sort of job and others like it. If everyone finished school who would pump gas, wait on tables, serve burgers, bag groceries, etc. It's s whole segment of the work population who are simply paid as little as can be gotten away with. |
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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Ellie C wrote: > >> Gee, with tip cups showing up all over could it possibly be a symptom >> of the fact that people need to make more than $7 per hour? THat's a >> fine wage if you're a high school kid but there's lots of folks who >> have these jobs as their full time work. Could you live on $7 per hour? > > > > There's no doubt that $7/hour is not a lot of money. The question, for > me, is how the higher wage should get delivered to the worker. I'd like > the employer to take care of it. The tip system is all weird and wrong. > The tip is supposed to be optional so you'd think that if you don't > like paying the tip you don't have to. But then the worker gets > screwed. You end up with a cycle like this: > > > Employer pays worker too little. > Customer thinks worker should get paid more and therefore tips. > Employer realizes tips are turning job into a well paid one. > Employer figures out way to get hands into the tip jar. > Customer must tip MORE to give worker a living wage. > > > For example, at many coat and package check places at museums and > convention halls, the workers never see the so called tips. Management > takes them outright. > > > --Lia > Yes, I agree. I live in France now and here tipping is simply an extra, not a counted-on part of the salary for wait staff. I don't know much about the salaries of wait staff, but being a waiter or waitress here isn't looked on as a dead end job. It seems to be looked on as no different from being a baker or a butcher or whatever. It's also nice to have had the same waitress in the local restaurant for the 5 years we've been eating there. Oh another thing that's quite different is the number of tables served by a waiter or waitress. Here you almost never see more than one server in a restaurant unless it's a large restaurant in the busy season. So perhaps this one person has a job that might be shared by two or more in a similar restaurant in the US. |
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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Ellie C wrote: > >> Gee, with tip cups showing up all over could it possibly be a symptom >> of the fact that people need to make more than $7 per hour? THat's a >> fine wage if you're a high school kid but there's lots of folks who >> have these jobs as their full time work. Could you live on $7 per hour? > > > > There's no doubt that $7/hour is not a lot of money. The question, for > me, is how the higher wage should get delivered to the worker. I'd like > the employer to take care of it. The tip system is all weird and wrong. > The tip is supposed to be optional so you'd think that if you don't > like paying the tip you don't have to. But then the worker gets > screwed. You end up with a cycle like this: > > > Employer pays worker too little. > Customer thinks worker should get paid more and therefore tips. > Employer realizes tips are turning job into a well paid one. > Employer figures out way to get hands into the tip jar. > Customer must tip MORE to give worker a living wage. > > > For example, at many coat and package check places at museums and > convention halls, the workers never see the so called tips. Management > takes them outright. > > > --Lia > Yes, I agree. I live in France now and here tipping is simply an extra, not a counted-on part of the salary for wait staff. I don't know much about the salaries of wait staff, but being a waiter or waitress here isn't looked on as a dead end job. It seems to be looked on as no different from being a baker or a butcher or whatever. It's also nice to have had the same waitress in the local restaurant for the 5 years we've been eating there. Oh another thing that's quite different is the number of tables served by a waiter or waitress. Here you almost never see more than one server in a restaurant unless it's a large restaurant in the busy season. So perhaps this one person has a job that might be shared by two or more in a similar restaurant in the US. |
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The Ranger wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:42:15 -0400, "Saerah" > > wrote: > >>The Ranger wrote in message ... >> >>>On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:53:19 GMT, "Jack Schidt®" > wrote: >>> >>>>My remark wasn't in support of tipping a counterperson >>>>but rather a response to the way $7 an hour was >>>>presented as a kingly sum of money. >>>> >>> >>>But it _is_ a nice wage, commensurate with the >>>level of work required and (usually) the level of >>>education said grunt has attained. >>> >> >>i know quite a few people with college degrees who >>are working in retail, making not much more. > > > I did, too; right out of college. The same numbers were recruited > for insurance sales, too; those companies would only _look_ at > applicants with university degrees. In a buyer's market, the > employer decides what he will, or will not, hire and the minimum > requirements from said applicants. > > >>>Graveyard and <Parentitis Flare-up on the other >>>early-am shift title> get paid slightly more because >>>of the hours needed but US$7.00 for simple counter >>>help is quite high. Especially with today's cash registers; >>>scan the item (or punch a specific key), punch in the >>>amount tendered, and give back the correct change >>>stated on the display. How much effort is required >>>from that? Certainly not a BS in EE... You have to be >>>able to breath or smile, usually not both simultaneously; >>>that's a bonus but you don't pay extra for that. >>> >> >>It's not a living wage. whats the point of paying people >>at all if they can't live on what you pay them? > > > That is _not_ the employer's problem. There are alternatives > available, whether _you_ like them or not. > > The Ranger Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' problem. So the way to get better wages in this job, as you say, is up to them. They could do something like, oh let's say band together and decide not to work unless they got better pay. They could form a group and bargain with the company. You're a genius! |
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The Ranger wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:42:15 -0400, "Saerah" > > wrote: > >>The Ranger wrote in message ... >> >>>On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:53:19 GMT, "Jack Schidt®" > wrote: >>> >>>>My remark wasn't in support of tipping a counterperson >>>>but rather a response to the way $7 an hour was >>>>presented as a kingly sum of money. >>>> >>> >>>But it _is_ a nice wage, commensurate with the >>>level of work required and (usually) the level of >>>education said grunt has attained. >>> >> >>i know quite a few people with college degrees who >>are working in retail, making not much more. > > > I did, too; right out of college. The same numbers were recruited > for insurance sales, too; those companies would only _look_ at > applicants with university degrees. In a buyer's market, the > employer decides what he will, or will not, hire and the minimum > requirements from said applicants. > > >>>Graveyard and <Parentitis Flare-up on the other >>>early-am shift title> get paid slightly more because >>>of the hours needed but US$7.00 for simple counter >>>help is quite high. Especially with today's cash registers; >>>scan the item (or punch a specific key), punch in the >>>amount tendered, and give back the correct change >>>stated on the display. How much effort is required >>>from that? Certainly not a BS in EE... You have to be >>>able to breath or smile, usually not both simultaneously; >>>that's a bonus but you don't pay extra for that. >>> >> >>It's not a living wage. whats the point of paying people >>at all if they can't live on what you pay them? > > > That is _not_ the employer's problem. There are alternatives > available, whether _you_ like them or not. > > The Ranger Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' problem. So the way to get better wages in this job, as you say, is up to them. They could do something like, oh let's say band together and decide not to work unless they got better pay. They could form a group and bargain with the company. You're a genius! |
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maxine in ri wrote:
> Saerah wrote: > >> The Ranger wrote in message ... >> >>> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:53:19 GMT, "Jack Schidt®" >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> My remark wasn't in support of tipping a counterperson >>>> but rather a response to the way $7 an hour was >>>> presented as a kingly sum of money. >>> >>> >>> But it _is_ a nice wage, commensurate with the level of work >>> required and (usually) the level of education said grunt has >>> attained. >> >> >> i know quite a few people with college degrees who are working in retail, >> making not much more. >> >> >>> Graveyard and <Parentitis Flare-up on the other early-am >>> shift title> get paid slightly more because of the hours needed but >>> US$7.00 for simple counter help is quite high. Especially with >>> today's cash registers; scan the item (or punch a specific key), >>> punch in the amount tendered, and give back the correct change >>> stated on the display. How much effort is required from that? >>> Certainly not a BS in EE... You have to be able to breath or smile, >>> usually not both simultaneously; that's a bonus but you don't pay >>> extra for that. >> >> >> It's not a living wage. whats the point of paying people at all if they >> can't live on what you pay them? > > -- > >> saerah > > > If that is the only job you are able to do, then you find a roommate to > split the cost of that apartment, take the public transit to work, and > don't buy a lot of non-essentials like the stereo system, the plasma tv, > the Viking stove.... > > If you're the only wage earner, you have kids in daycare, or grammer > school, you'll probably have to deal with Social Services in your area, > and hope that the food banks and local houses of worship have help > available to tide you over. > > maxine in ri > My step daughter earns over $10 per hour, working full time. She lives in a house trailer, which we bought for her so she pays no rent. Between health insurance costs, transportation to work, heat, elec, phone bill, and food, she barely makes ends meet. She does not have plasma TV, she has a 10 year old stereo which we gave her. Last I knew she didn't have a Viking stove. |
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maxine in ri wrote:
> Saerah wrote: > >> The Ranger wrote in message ... >> >>> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:53:19 GMT, "Jack Schidt®" >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> My remark wasn't in support of tipping a counterperson >>>> but rather a response to the way $7 an hour was >>>> presented as a kingly sum of money. >>> >>> >>> But it _is_ a nice wage, commensurate with the level of work >>> required and (usually) the level of education said grunt has >>> attained. >> >> >> i know quite a few people with college degrees who are working in retail, >> making not much more. >> >> >>> Graveyard and <Parentitis Flare-up on the other early-am >>> shift title> get paid slightly more because of the hours needed but >>> US$7.00 for simple counter help is quite high. Especially with >>> today's cash registers; scan the item (or punch a specific key), >>> punch in the amount tendered, and give back the correct change >>> stated on the display. How much effort is required from that? >>> Certainly not a BS in EE... You have to be able to breath or smile, >>> usually not both simultaneously; that's a bonus but you don't pay >>> extra for that. >> >> >> It's not a living wage. whats the point of paying people at all if they >> can't live on what you pay them? > > -- > >> saerah > > > If that is the only job you are able to do, then you find a roommate to > split the cost of that apartment, take the public transit to work, and > don't buy a lot of non-essentials like the stereo system, the plasma tv, > the Viking stove.... > > If you're the only wage earner, you have kids in daycare, or grammer > school, you'll probably have to deal with Social Services in your area, > and hope that the food banks and local houses of worship have help > available to tide you over. > > maxine in ri > My step daughter earns over $10 per hour, working full time. She lives in a house trailer, which we bought for her so she pays no rent. Between health insurance costs, transportation to work, heat, elec, phone bill, and food, she barely makes ends meet. She does not have plasma TV, she has a 10 year old stereo which we gave her. Last I knew she didn't have a Viking stove. |
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Lia wrote on 10/16/2004:
<snip> >McCormick & Schmick! I'm amazed. Were you able to figure >out if the up charge was just something the server or bartender >invented in an effort to steal or if the charge was something >management tried for a while, then abandoned? I don't know. I tend to think the latter. It printed out on the tab like it had been programmed into those computer type thingys they use in restaurants. (Do they have a name by the way - other than "com- puter type thingys"? - hate to betray my ignorance of restaurant nomenclature) I don't know how much leeway (if any) individual servers or bartenders have to make up their own entries on those things without a manager's approval, although even the tightest run organizations seem to have opportunities for mischief. I have been acquainted with Bill McCormick for some time and was at that time (Never met Schmick - Doug, I think). McCormick's a good guy (not like my best friend - just someone I know and chit chat with a bit every now and then). I ran into him in a bar (not a McCormick's) shortly after my first experience with the "up" charge and he bought me a drink - a gibson up as it turns out. He was having a martini up. This way my chance to gripe (in non-surly manner, of course) about this charge. I asked if he was aware of it (not that I expected he was aware of every jot and tittle that goes on in the restaurants that bear his name). He looked a bit puzzled. He looked at his tab to see if there was a similar charge (there wasn't). He asked the bartender whether he charged more for an up than an over. Bartender said "no". We left it that he didn't know about this and moved on to other topics. All I know is that shortly after that (a month or two, say) the up charge went away. |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:35:38 GMT, sf > wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:20:54 -0700, The Ranger > wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:19:51 GMT, sf > wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:41:46 -0700, The Ranger > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:07:25 GMT, sf > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:13:20 GMT, baker > wrote: > > > > > > They chose to work there. > > > > > > > > > > > Said like a holier than thou person with job choice. > > > > > > > > > Everybody has choices... > > > > > > > > Their choice is between a rock and a hard place. > > > > > > Your choice was to turn a blind eye to the truth of the > > > situation. None are so blind as those who will not see. > > > > You don't know me. > > > > I've [repeatedly] witnessed the go-get'em spirit > > of people that refuse to give in to [the] apathy of being > > "stuck in a job" and/or [the] self-loathing from a supreme > > lack of confidence. > > > That is not the type of situation we were talking about. Then explain it better. You stated I turned a blind eye to someone being stuck because they don't have any choices in a flat job market. I say that there are always choices available, and used actual people I know as my examples. In every example I've ever met, where the "employee" felt trapped in a job or was unwilling to improve their lot, it was solely their private cell of apathy and/or self-loathing. "I can't afford to," "What if they catch me," "It's not so bad," "I'll never find," "I can only do"... The excuses provided on why the person will not move on are often only limited by their imagination. > > Not one of those people, all socio-economically challenged, > > felt "stuck" in some job or lacking in the number of choices > > available to them in a given week while they took their run > > at the brass ring. > > > > As I said, "Everybody has choices..." > > > Suuuuure, Ranger, you're right - I'm wrong. I'm glad you're willing to admit it. It's a start. > Non English speakers and people with severe mental > or physical disabilities can succeed by sheer grit and > determination. And do succeed with surprising regularity. Are they all Rockefellers or Stanfords or Morgans? Not hardly. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about having choices on where to work and the opportunities available to those that do. > Ignore the fact that hard working people often have more > than one (undesirable) job, but aren't getting ahead and > will never be ahead. I haven't ignored this or sluffed it off as you seem to think. > Fortunately, some of them have children who are a > success in anyone's book and should be able to take > care of them in their old age Non sequitur. This has NOTHING to do with making choices in any type of job market. > but others have children who are just like any other > work-a-day folks who "man" the service oriented > businesses near you. Again, non sequitur. We're not talking about children. Stay focused on the issue: choices people make about jobs. [snip of sf's OT rant] You let your bias get in the way of your reading comprehension again. Do stay focused. > The people YOU choose to denigrate are the very > people who make your life easier! And where, exactly did I denigrate these downtrodden people in my previous passages? > You need an attitude an adjustment. Take your glasses off, Virginia. It's not my attitude that's so out of whack with reality. ObFood: The last Winchell's Donuts (around me) closed down about five years ago. About the same time Krispy Creme opened out on the northern coast of the PRC. Neither chain provide a very good products; Winchell's were always greasy and Krispy's are sickeningly sweet. "Happy Days Donuts," OTOH, are some of the best I've enjoyed. The Ranger |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:35:38 GMT, sf > wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:20:54 -0700, The Ranger > wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:19:51 GMT, sf > wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:41:46 -0700, The Ranger > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:07:25 GMT, sf > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:13:20 GMT, baker > wrote: > > > > > > They chose to work there. > > > > > > > > > > > Said like a holier than thou person with job choice. > > > > > > > > > Everybody has choices... > > > > > > > > Their choice is between a rock and a hard place. > > > > > > Your choice was to turn a blind eye to the truth of the > > > situation. None are so blind as those who will not see. > > > > You don't know me. > > > > I've [repeatedly] witnessed the go-get'em spirit > > of people that refuse to give in to [the] apathy of being > > "stuck in a job" and/or [the] self-loathing from a supreme > > lack of confidence. > > > That is not the type of situation we were talking about. Then explain it better. You stated I turned a blind eye to someone being stuck because they don't have any choices in a flat job market. I say that there are always choices available, and used actual people I know as my examples. In every example I've ever met, where the "employee" felt trapped in a job or was unwilling to improve their lot, it was solely their private cell of apathy and/or self-loathing. "I can't afford to," "What if they catch me," "It's not so bad," "I'll never find," "I can only do"... The excuses provided on why the person will not move on are often only limited by their imagination. > > Not one of those people, all socio-economically challenged, > > felt "stuck" in some job or lacking in the number of choices > > available to them in a given week while they took their run > > at the brass ring. > > > > As I said, "Everybody has choices..." > > > Suuuuure, Ranger, you're right - I'm wrong. I'm glad you're willing to admit it. It's a start. > Non English speakers and people with severe mental > or physical disabilities can succeed by sheer grit and > determination. And do succeed with surprising regularity. Are they all Rockefellers or Stanfords or Morgans? Not hardly. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about having choices on where to work and the opportunities available to those that do. > Ignore the fact that hard working people often have more > than one (undesirable) job, but aren't getting ahead and > will never be ahead. I haven't ignored this or sluffed it off as you seem to think. > Fortunately, some of them have children who are a > success in anyone's book and should be able to take > care of them in their old age Non sequitur. This has NOTHING to do with making choices in any type of job market. > but others have children who are just like any other > work-a-day folks who "man" the service oriented > businesses near you. Again, non sequitur. We're not talking about children. Stay focused on the issue: choices people make about jobs. [snip of sf's OT rant] You let your bias get in the way of your reading comprehension again. Do stay focused. > The people YOU choose to denigrate are the very > people who make your life easier! And where, exactly did I denigrate these downtrodden people in my previous passages? > You need an attitude an adjustment. Take your glasses off, Virginia. It's not my attitude that's so out of whack with reality. ObFood: The last Winchell's Donuts (around me) closed down about five years ago. About the same time Krispy Creme opened out on the northern coast of the PRC. Neither chain provide a very good products; Winchell's were always greasy and Krispy's are sickeningly sweet. "Happy Days Donuts," OTOH, are some of the best I've enjoyed. The Ranger |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:45:38 +0200, Ellie C
> wrote: > The Ranger wrote: [snip] > > > It's not a living wage. whats the point of > > > paying people at all if they can't live on > > > what you pay them? > > > > >That is _not_ the employer's problem. There are > > alternatives available, whether _you_ like them > > or not. > > > Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' > problem. It often is... > So the way to get better wages in this job, as > you say, is up to them. They could do something > like, oh [unionize]. That's one method used to improving work conditions, or pay, or benefits. It is a choice made by the employees, though. The Ranger |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:45:38 +0200, Ellie C
> wrote: > The Ranger wrote: [snip] > > > It's not a living wage. whats the point of > > > paying people at all if they can't live on > > > what you pay them? > > > > >That is _not_ the employer's problem. There are > > alternatives available, whether _you_ like them > > or not. > > > Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' > problem. It often is... > So the way to get better wages in this job, as > you say, is up to them. They could do something > like, oh [unionize]. That's one method used to improving work conditions, or pay, or benefits. It is a choice made by the employees, though. The Ranger |
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Ellie C wrote:
> Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' problem. So the > way to get better wages in this job, as you say, is up to them. They > could do something like, oh let's say band together and decide not to > work unless they got better pay. They could form a group and bargain > with the company. You're a genius! so when they get paid more, the prices of those hamburgers go up to support the increased cost of doing business. People don't want to pay more for a hamburger, so they stop eating there as often. Boss then has to lay off better paid waitress. I dunno....it seems it could be a vicious circle? |
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Ellie C wrote:
> Well, golly you're right, then it must be the employees' problem. So the > way to get better wages in this job, as you say, is up to them. They > could do something like, oh let's say band together and decide not to > work unless they got better pay. They could form a group and bargain > with the company. You're a genius! so when they get paid more, the prices of those hamburgers go up to support the increased cost of doing business. People don't want to pay more for a hamburger, so they stop eating there as often. Boss then has to lay off better paid waitress. I dunno....it seems it could be a vicious circle? |
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On 10/16/2004, penmart01 wrote:
<snip> >The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things some people call martinis these days. When it comes right down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. |
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On 10/16/2004, penmart01 wrote:
<snip> >The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things some people call martinis these days. When it comes right down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. |
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"Kevintsheehy" > wrote in message
... > On 10/16/2004, penmart01 wrote: > > <snip> > > >The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... > > Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things > some people call martinis these days. When it comes right > down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. > > Bravo!!! And anyone who uses the word "martini" to describe a drink that does not contain gin or vodka (lots) and vermouth (a little) with the possible addition of an olive, onion, or twist should be hung. -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
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"Kevintsheehy" > wrote in message
... > On 10/16/2004, penmart01 wrote: > > <snip> > > >The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... > > Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things > some people call martinis these days. When it comes right > down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. > > Bravo!!! And anyone who uses the word "martini" to describe a drink that does not contain gin or vodka (lots) and vermouth (a little) with the possible addition of an olive, onion, or twist should be hung. -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
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"The Ranger" > wrote in message
news  > On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:35:38 GMT, sf > wrote: <snipped> You must be astoundingly dense. You repeatedly present all this information about choices, ambition, choices, etc., and what you completely fail to see is that IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION (yes I was yelling, although I doubt it will do any good). Yes, workers have choices, yes many of them better themselves thru hard work and gumption, yes many of those who stay in low-end jobs do so because of apathy of fear. IRRELEVANT!!! The original discussion was on the question of whether people who work at low-end jobs should be paid a decent wage. The question of why they are in this job and whether they have opportunities to "move up" if they so choose does not come into it. It's a simple matter of fair compensation for work performed. You are big on choices. One might then say that you "choose" not to understand this extremely simple concept. Or is it that you lack the mental capacity to understand it? Either way, you just don't get it and, I suspect, never will (although you may think you do). -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
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"The Ranger" > wrote in message
news > On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:35:38 GMT, sf > wrote: <snipped> You must be astoundingly dense. You repeatedly present all this information about choices, ambition, choices, etc., and what you completely fail to see is that IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION (yes I was yelling, although I doubt it will do any good). Yes, workers have choices, yes many of them better themselves thru hard work and gumption, yes many of those who stay in low-end jobs do so because of apathy of fear. IRRELEVANT!!! The original discussion was on the question of whether people who work at low-end jobs should be paid a decent wage. The question of why they are in this job and whether they have opportunities to "move up" if they so choose does not come into it. It's a simple matter of fair compensation for work performed. You are big on choices. One might then say that you "choose" not to understand this extremely simple concept. Or is it that you lack the mental capacity to understand it? Either way, you just don't get it and, I suspect, never will (although you may think you do). -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
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"sf" wrote:
<long snip> > Suuuuure, Ranger, you're right - I'm wrong. > Non English speakers and people with severe mental or > physical disabilities can succeed by sheer grit and > determination. > Ignore the fact that hard working people often have more > than one (undesirable) job, but aren't getting ahead and > will never be ahead. Fortunately, some of them have > children who are a success in anyone's book and should be > able to take care of them in their old age - but others have > children who are just like any other work-a-day folks who > "man" the service oriented businesses near you. > If NO ONE worked at restaurants (from bus boy to chef), at > gas stations (from gas jockey to mechanic) or department > stores (from clerk to buyer)... if no one answered the phone > when you called your ISP, cable, gas or electric company.... Wait a minute. Whoa up. Is that a fair analogy? When I call my ISP, no one answers the phone  <and the cable, gas and electric companies refer callers to their websites!> Be that as it may. Here is where your otherwise compelling post loses ground: > if no one picked up your TRASH or cleaned your office... if > no one could paint your house, fix your windows, replace > your garage door, repair your roof or unclog your drain... > if no one filled in pot holes on your street or repaired > telephone/electric wires... if no one wanted to be a night > watchman, fight wild fires or empty your bed pan you when > you are incapacitated - what would your life be like? Maybe I missed something... Are you saying that all of the people who perform those functions are unskilled/untrained going-nowhere nonprofessionals? I think you're off track. Your intentions are good, but you've derailed. > The people YOU choose to denigrate are the very people who > make your life easier! You need an attitude an adjustment. I agree. But again, as I said, I don't fully understand the fine points of your defense of the service industries. |
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>kevintsheehy writes:
> >penmart01 wrote: > >>The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... > >Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things >some people call martinis these days. When it comes right >down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. I also gave up ordering wine with dinner long ago... the prices charged by restaurants are ridiculously inflated. In my opinion no wine in the world is worth more than $3-$4 a glass... so I'd much rather the 2ni. I do my wine drinking at home, thank you... and still refuse to pay more than $15 a bottle... and that's my high limit, I'm generally in the $6-$7 range. By the 3rd glass no one can tell the difference anyway... I laugh when I hear folks brag about only drinking top shelf, when they're guzzling like a Texan gulping down six-packs at a Q. I can tell the difference with my first 2ni, by the second one too, but by the 3rd my taste gets kind of fuzzy and after that they may as well serve me house gin-rocks, save the vermouth... and that's exactly what I do, If I'm going to go more than three I switch from Boodles to house gin... why waste $2-$3 extra per. ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ```````````` |
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>kevintsheehy writes:
> >penmart01 wrote: > >>The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner... > >Same here. Can't stand these sissified, fruity, sweet things >some people call martinis these days. When it comes right >down to it, I think that booze ought to taste like booze. I also gave up ordering wine with dinner long ago... the prices charged by restaurants are ridiculously inflated. In my opinion no wine in the world is worth more than $3-$4 a glass... so I'd much rather the 2ni. I do my wine drinking at home, thank you... and still refuse to pay more than $15 a bottle... and that's my high limit, I'm generally in the $6-$7 range. By the 3rd glass no one can tell the difference anyway... I laugh when I hear folks brag about only drinking top shelf, when they're guzzling like a Texan gulping down six-packs at a Q. I can tell the difference with my first 2ni, by the second one too, but by the 3rd my taste gets kind of fuzzy and after that they may as well serve me house gin-rocks, save the vermouth... and that's exactly what I do, If I'm going to go more than three I switch from Boodles to house gin... why waste $2-$3 extra per. ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ```````````` |
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PENMART01 wrote:
> I also gave up ordering wine with dinner long ago... the prices charged by > restaurants are ridiculously inflated. In my opinion no wine in the world is > worth more than $3-$4 a glass... so I'd much rather the 2ni. I do my wine > drinking at home, thank you... and still refuse to pay more than $15 a > bottle... and that's my high limit, I'm generally in the $6-$7 range. By the > 3rd glass no one can tell the difference anyway... I laugh when I hear folks > brag about only drinking top shelf, when they're guzzling like a Texan gulping > down six-packs at a Q. I can tell the difference with my first 2ni, by the > second one too, but by the 3rd my taste gets kind of fuzzy and after that they > may as well serve me house gin-rocks, save the vermouth... and that's exactly > what I do, If I'm going to go more than three I switch from Boodles to house > gin... why waste $2-$3 extra per. I agree with a lot of what you have to say here, and that brings me back to my pet peeve about tipping and corkage on the more expensive wines. I can go along with tipping to supplement substandard wages to wait staff, but damn it I hate to be expected to pay an extra high tip based on a percentage of something where I am being gouged on the price, gouged on corkage fees and gouged on taxes. Around here, that bottle of wine that costs a dollar to produce sells for $8 in the liquor store. The restaurant charges $18 or more, then there is provincial and federal tax, so the bill adds up to about $21. So now I am expected to pay at least a $3 tip. It gets worse with the expensive wines. Suppose menu price is $100. Now you are being whacked big time for corkage fees and miscellaneous markups. There is no more work for the waiter for this $100 wine than there was for the one that the menu lists for $20. He or she has to go and get the bottle, cut off the wrapper and uncork it. But now the expected tip is five times as much. Just because you ordered a wine that is more expensive, the percentage tipping protocol expects you to allow yourself to get soaked even more for "service" |
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PENMART01 wrote:
>>sf writes: >> >>(Kevintsheehy) wrote: >> >> >>> I recall the first time I noticed an "up" charge itemized on a >>> restaurant bill for a martini served "up". It was $2 or $3. I >>> asked the waiter about it because I had not seen that before. >>> He explained - in a rather surly way - that they started doing >>> that because you get more booze when the drink is served >>> "up". So, I say, why don't you just include it in the price of >>> the drink and skip the separate line item. I don't remember >>> what he said to that, just that it was also a surly answer. >> >>THAT is sooo NOT true! I've watched pours for overs and >>ups... they are the same (if the bartender is honest). > > > The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner and after years and years > have never seen an extra charge for a 2ni on the rocks. In my experience a 2ni > over contains more booze; more space in the glass and looks skimpy if the ice > doesn't at least float so the bar tends to add a bit more booze... whereas > stemmed 2ni glasses are filled to the brim and the quantity is finite... and > the sign of a good server is they can carry without spilling any. 90% of the > time I order 2nis up, they taste better without all that ice. I order overs if > I'm driving, I can nurse *one* throughout the entire meal. I ain't telling how > many ups I can consume with a porterhouse when I'm not driving, except to say > that my bar bill is about twice my dinner. > > > ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- > ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- > ********* > "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." > Sheldon > ```````````` I dumbfounded a waitress at Jillian's in Boston one recent afternoon. I'd like a martini...I'm cut off with "would you like to see the martini menu"...before I can get out with Bombay Saphire and two olives, neat. No thank you I'd like it with Bomb Saph, 2 o's neat. She looked nothing short of shocked. I guess chicks aren't suppossed to drink real tini's. I may have to channel my deceased grandmother-in-law and just order Beefeater with a side of olives. As trendy "martinis" go I've found two that I like...chocolate with Vanilla Stoli & Godiva for dessert, and orange with Orange Stoli and Grand Marnier with Sunday brunch. Jessica |
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PENMART01 wrote:
>>sf writes: >> >>(Kevintsheehy) wrote: >> >> >>> I recall the first time I noticed an "up" charge itemized on a >>> restaurant bill for a martini served "up". It was $2 or $3. I >>> asked the waiter about it because I had not seen that before. >>> He explained - in a rather surly way - that they started doing >>> that because you get more booze when the drink is served >>> "up". So, I say, why don't you just include it in the price of >>> the drink and skip the separate line item. I don't remember >>> what he said to that, just that it was also a surly answer. >> >>THAT is sooo NOT true! I've watched pours for overs and >>ups... they are the same (if the bartender is honest). > > > The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner and after years and years > have never seen an extra charge for a 2ni on the rocks. In my experience a 2ni > over contains more booze; more space in the glass and looks skimpy if the ice > doesn't at least float so the bar tends to add a bit more booze... whereas > stemmed 2ni glasses are filled to the brim and the quantity is finite... and > the sign of a good server is they can carry without spilling any. 90% of the > time I order 2nis up, they taste better without all that ice. I order overs if > I'm driving, I can nurse *one* throughout the entire meal. I ain't telling how > many ups I can consume with a porterhouse when I'm not driving, except to say > that my bar bill is about twice my dinner. > > > ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- > ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- > ********* > "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." > Sheldon > ```````````` I dumbfounded a waitress at Jillian's in Boston one recent afternoon. I'd like a martini...I'm cut off with "would you like to see the martini menu"...before I can get out with Bombay Saphire and two olives, neat. No thank you I'd like it with Bomb Saph, 2 o's neat. She looked nothing short of shocked. I guess chicks aren't suppossed to drink real tini's. I may have to channel my deceased grandmother-in-law and just order Beefeater with a side of olives. As trendy "martinis" go I've found two that I like...chocolate with Vanilla Stoli & Godiva for dessert, and orange with Orange Stoli and Grand Marnier with Sunday brunch. Jessica |
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"Jessica V." > wrote in
: > PENMART01 wrote: > >>>sf writes: >>> >>>(Kevintsheehy) wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I recall the first time I noticed an "up" charge itemized on a >>>> restaurant bill for a martini served "up". It was $2 or $3. I >>>> asked the waiter about it because I had not seen that before. >>>> He explained - in a rather surly way - that they started doing >>>> that because you get more booze when the drink is served >>>> "up". So, I say, why don't you just include it in the price of >>>> the drink and skip the separate line item. I don't remember >>>> what he said to that, just that it was also a surly answer. >>> >>>THAT is sooo NOT true! I've watched pours for overs and >>>ups... they are the same (if the bartender is honest). >> >> >> The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner and after years >> and years have never seen an extra charge for a 2ni on the rocks. In >> my experience a 2ni over contains more booze; more space in the glass >> and looks skimpy if the ice doesn't at least float so the bar tends >> to add a bit more booze... whereas stemmed 2ni glasses are filled to >> the brim and the quantity is finite... and the sign of a good server >> is they can carry without spilling any. 90% of the time I order 2nis >> up, they taste better without all that ice. I order overs if I'm >> driving, I can nurse *one* throughout the entire meal. I ain't >> telling how many ups I can consume with a porterhouse when I'm not >> driving, except to say that my bar bill is about twice my dinner. >> >> >> ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- >> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- >> ********* >> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." >> Sheldon >> ```````````` > > I dumbfounded a waitress at Jillian's in Boston one recent afternoon. > I'd like a martini...I'm cut off with "would you like to see the > martini menu"...before I can get out with Bombay Saphire and two > olives, neat. No thank you I'd like it with Bomb Saph, 2 o's neat. > She looked nothing short of shocked. I guess chicks aren't suppossed > to drink real tini's. > > I may have to channel my deceased grandmother-in-law and just order > Beefeater with a side of olives. > > As trendy "martinis" go I've found two that I like...chocolate with > Vanilla Stoli & Godiva for dessert, and orange with Orange Stoli and > Grand Marnier with Sunday brunch. > > Jessica While some of these trendy drinks may be very appealing, it's a shame that some a**hole decided to brand them "martinis", which they clearly are not. Every dictionary reference I can find defines a martini as "a cocktail made of gin (or vodka) with dry vermouth". These new drinks are no more martinis than is a Black or White Russian, which are not that different from these new drinks, IMNSHO. One recent martini encounter began with a cocktail waitress suggesting one of various of the new "martinis", to which I replied, "I want a martini, not a fruit cocktail!" To avoid future such idiocy, I now order a Beefeater Gibson with extra onion...not even a whispered reference to "martini". -- It's me, Baker! When the Chips are Down, the Buffalo is Empty. |
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"Jessica V." > wrote in
: > PENMART01 wrote: > >>>sf writes: >>> >>>(Kevintsheehy) wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I recall the first time I noticed an "up" charge itemized on a >>>> restaurant bill for a martini served "up". It was $2 or $3. I >>>> asked the waiter about it because I had not seen that before. >>>> He explained - in a rather surly way - that they started doing >>>> that because you get more booze when the drink is served >>>> "up". So, I say, why don't you just include it in the price of >>>> the drink and skip the separate line item. I don't remember >>>> what he said to that, just that it was also a surly answer. >>> >>>THAT is sooo NOT true! I've watched pours for overs and >>>ups... they are the same (if the bartender is honest). >> >> >> The mar2ni is my favorite drink to order with dinner and after years >> and years have never seen an extra charge for a 2ni on the rocks. In >> my experience a 2ni over contains more booze; more space in the glass >> and looks skimpy if the ice doesn't at least float so the bar tends >> to add a bit more booze... whereas stemmed 2ni glasses are filled to >> the brim and the quantity is finite... and the sign of a good server >> is they can carry without spilling any. 90% of the time I order 2nis >> up, they taste better without all that ice. I order overs if I'm >> driving, I can nurse *one* throughout the entire meal. I ain't >> telling how many ups I can consume with a porterhouse when I'm not >> driving, except to say that my bar bill is about twice my dinner. >> >> >> ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- >> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- >> ********* >> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." >> Sheldon >> ```````````` > > I dumbfounded a waitress at Jillian's in Boston one recent afternoon. > I'd like a martini...I'm cut off with "would you like to see the > martini menu"...before I can get out with Bombay Saphire and two > olives, neat. No thank you I'd like it with Bomb Saph, 2 o's neat. > She looked nothing short of shocked. I guess chicks aren't suppossed > to drink real tini's. > > I may have to channel my deceased grandmother-in-law and just order > Beefeater with a side of olives. > > As trendy "martinis" go I've found two that I like...chocolate with > Vanilla Stoli & Godiva for dessert, and orange with Orange Stoli and > Grand Marnier with Sunday brunch. > > Jessica While some of these trendy drinks may be very appealing, it's a shame that some a**hole decided to brand them "martinis", which they clearly are not. Every dictionary reference I can find defines a martini as "a cocktail made of gin (or vodka) with dry vermouth". These new drinks are no more martinis than is a Black or White Russian, which are not that different from these new drinks, IMNSHO. One recent martini encounter began with a cocktail waitress suggesting one of various of the new "martinis", to which I replied, "I want a martini, not a fruit cocktail!" To avoid future such idiocy, I now order a Beefeater Gibson with extra onion...not even a whispered reference to "martini". -- It's me, Baker! When the Chips are Down, the Buffalo is Empty. |
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>Dave Smith writes:
> >PENMART01 wrote: > >> I also gave up ordering wine with dinner long ago... the prices charged by >> restaurants are ridiculously inflated. In my opinion no wine in the world >is >> worth more than $3-$4 a glass... so I'd much rather the 2ni. I do my wine >> drinking at home, thank you... and still refuse to pay more than $15 a >> bottle... and that's my high limit, I'm generally in the $6-$7 range. By >the >> 3rd glass no one can tell the difference anyway... I laugh when I hear >folks >> brag about only drinking top shelf, when they're guzzling like a Texan >gulping >> down six-packs at a Q. I can tell the difference with my first 2ni, by the >> second one too, but by the 3rd my taste gets kind of fuzzy and after that >they >> may as well serve me house gin-rocks, save the vermouth... and that's >exactly >> what I do, If I'm going to go more than three I switch from Boodles to >house >> gin... why waste $2-$3 extra per. > >I agree with a lot of what you have to say here, and that brings me back to >my pet >peeve about tipping and corkage on the more expensive wines. I can go along >with >tipping to supplement substandard wages to wait staff, but damn it I hate to >be >expected to pay an extra high tip based on a percentage of something where I >am >being gouged on the price, gouged on corkage fees and gouged on taxes. >Around >here, that bottle of wine that costs a dollar to produce sells for $8 in the >liquor store. The restaurant charges $18 or more, then there is provincial >and >federal tax, so the bill adds up to about $21. So now I am expected to pay at >least a $3 tip. > >It gets worse with the expensive wines. Suppose menu price is $100. Now you >are >being whacked big time for corkage fees and miscellaneous markups. There is >no >more work for the waiter for this $100 wine than there was for the one that >the >menu lists for $20. He or she has to go and get the bottle, cut off the >wrapper >and uncork it. But now the expected tip is five times as much. Just because >you >ordered a wine that is more expensive, the percentage tipping protocol >expects you >to allow yourself to get soaked even more for "service" By your logic the same applies to food too... after all, the server does no more to bring you the $8 burger deluxe as the $26 porterhouse. And anyway, I never mentioned tipping, I only refered to the price of the goods. But I don't include my bar tab in computing the tip. I tip the bar separately from my dinner. I know in advance that I will typically have a half dozen or so 2nis with my dinner, so at the time the barmaid takes the order for my first I'll slip a fin into her hand with my smile and Thank You. This ensures prompt service right from the get-go... when I receive my 4th I'll slip her another fin... and the barmaid will invaribly clue in the food server that the table has a good tipper... pays in dividends. Sometime halfway through dinner I'll make a head call, when I'll slip the bar a ten spot. At this point I'm ensured at least one drink on the house, often two, and that my drinks will be full measure... the bar is happy and so am I... I got more than my bar tips back in trade and attitude. I tip my food server in cash too, directly in their hand when they present the tab, not included as part of the food tab, and never ever added on with a credit card... the house doesn't need to know the amount of my tip. And I don't know about yoose but I'm lucid enough to actually know in advance that I'm going out to dinner, and so there is never any excuse not to have a stack of small bills tucked into my billfold. Tipping is a bribe, they know it and I know it... it's insulting to the server to imply it's pity. And there is no reason to pity a server's wage... a good server at a quality restaurant nets more than your typical college degreed professional... very often substantially more than the head chef. The only people who think food service workers aren't paid well are those cheap *******s who always whine about their poor service, because they haven't a clue about how to tip and/or behave like a mench... those feral beasts have no social skills on any level, they're uncouth. When tipping/schmearing is done correctly it costs nothing, one hand washes the other, it all evens out. Oxford schmear (also schmeer, shmeer, or shmear) US informal noun a corrupt or underhand inducement; a bribe. verb flatter or ingratiate oneself with (someone): he was constantly buying us drinks and schmearing us up. €” PHRASES the whole schmear everything possible or available; every aspect of the situation: I'm going for the whole schmear. €”ORIGIN 1960s: from Yiddish shmirn 'flatter, grease'. --- http://www.pass.to/glossary/gloz3.htm#lets Shmeer - The business; the whole works; to bribe, to coat like butter --- ---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ```````````` |
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Kevintsheehy wrote:
> I don't know. I tend to think the latter. It printed out on the tab like > it had been programmed into those computer type thingys they use > in restaurants. (Do they have a name by the way - other than "com- > puter type thingys"? - hate to betray my ignorance of restaurant nomenclature) I call the thingies a "register" and the thingies that take money a "cash register." I have no idea if that's the official name. >He asked the bartender whether he charged more for an up than > an over. Bartender said "no". We left it > that he didn't know about this and moved on to other topics. All I know > is that shortly after that (a month or two, say) the up charge went > away. You've convinced me it was something that management tried for a while, then abandoned. It brings me back to thinking about the waiter. I can see now that he might have been torn. What's a waiter to do when he wants to keep his job, wants to do a good job, and thinks the management is making a huge error? The waiter could have been convinced that there really was more alcohol in the up drink, but let's not consider that for a moment. Let's say the waiter knew there was no more alcohol, knew management was making a mistake for charging extra for the up drink and was at a loss for what to say. There's still no excuse for being surly, but I do wonder what would have been a better explanation. I would have been equally dissatisfied with "Look, I don't know; that's the way it rang up on the register." Or: "I just work here." Or: I think this is the silliest thing I've ever heard, but they're charging more for up drinks." Or: "Don't blame me; take it up with management." Those all sound pretty bad. --Lia |
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Kevintsheehy wrote:
> I don't know. I tend to think the latter. It printed out on the tab like > it had been programmed into those computer type thingys they use > in restaurants. (Do they have a name by the way - other than "com- > puter type thingys"? - hate to betray my ignorance of restaurant nomenclature) I call the thingies a "register" and the thingies that take money a "cash register." I have no idea if that's the official name. >He asked the bartender whether he charged more for an up than > an over. Bartender said "no". We left it > that he didn't know about this and moved on to other topics. All I know > is that shortly after that (a month or two, say) the up charge went > away. You've convinced me it was something that management tried for a while, then abandoned. It brings me back to thinking about the waiter. I can see now that he might have been torn. What's a waiter to do when he wants to keep his job, wants to do a good job, and thinks the management is making a huge error? The waiter could have been convinced that there really was more alcohol in the up drink, but let's not consider that for a moment. Let's say the waiter knew there was no more alcohol, knew management was making a mistake for charging extra for the up drink and was at a loss for what to say. There's still no excuse for being surly, but I do wonder what would have been a better explanation. I would have been equally dissatisfied with "Look, I don't know; that's the way it rang up on the register." Or: "I just work here." Or: I think this is the silliest thing I've ever heard, but they're charging more for up drinks." Or: "Don't blame me; take it up with management." Those all sound pretty bad. --Lia |
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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> "I just work here." (laugh) Reminds me of someone I worked with, something was messed up on her car in a carwash, she reported it to the desk and they said, hey, I just work here. She said, so I'm supposed to ask someone who *doesn't* work here? Still makes me laugh. nancy |
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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> "I just work here." (laugh) Reminds me of someone I worked with, something was messed up on her car in a carwash, she reported it to the desk and they said, hey, I just work here. She said, so I'm supposed to ask someone who *doesn't* work here? Still makes me laugh. nancy |
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On 2004-10-16, PENMART01 > wrote:
> include my bar tab in computing the tip. I tip the bar separately from my > dinner. I know in advance.......[snippage] Holy crap! They're ice skating in Hell! nb |
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