For the up-to-date-on-nutrition challenged, I offer the following links:

http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/ris...Atkinsvind.htm

http://thecompounder.com/AtkinsVindicated.html

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...26/7400/1166-h

There are far more available for those that want to google it...

Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
people. I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at the
recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
DID NOT WORK!!!

is it so hard to believe that the original theories were just plain
wrong? And the current crop of Doctors were trained that way, so they
are going to continue to promote it. Sad.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...ets020719.html

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/health/ed..._badcarbs.html

I like this link as it stresses starch carbs vs. "green" carbs.
One reason I prefer the greenwich diet over Atkins. I'm not a high fat
fan, (since calories still count) but eggs only have 5 grams each and
you need up to 25 grams per day to maintain skin health. Eggs are also
very rich in trace minerals which are difficult to get in a regular diet.

http://www.familyhaven.com/health/mineral.html

The thing with plants and trace minerals is if they are lacking in the
soil, they will NOT be in the food that is supposed to have them
according to most nutritional charts. The vast majority of commercial
farming is now done in depleted soils using commercial fertilizers that
contain just enough nutrients to get the plants to grow! This is the
major reason why organic veggies really are more nutritious than
non-organic.

http://www.mofga.org/food.html

Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"Katra" > wrote in message news:KatraMungBean-

> Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
> It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
> At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
>
Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%),
bp, improved cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat this
way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid
starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar including
the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter,
oil; easy diet to follow, good results.

"Anthony" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
news:KatraMungBean-
>
> > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
> > It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
> > At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> >
> Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%),
> bp, improved cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat
this
> way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid
> starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar
including
> the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter,
> oil; easy diet to follow, good results.

So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy
to follow?

In article >, Katra
> wrote:


> Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
> people. I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at the
> recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
> on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
> DID NOT WORK!!!


In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type
that has lots of calories, you are talking about a diet for those who need
to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high protein diets are not going
to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough
that you lose weight, but I'd rather go on statins first) if you are
looking to lose weight.


For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person
depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some
variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
work well for someone else.


Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I
thought that a little self-control in eating less would work. I found
that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less just meant that I
ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I
would fill my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad.
By filling my stomach like this, I could more easily resist the temptation
to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:17:18 GMT, Default User
> wrote:


>Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to
>health. Newer studies seem to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the
>old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps these are wrong.
>Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we
>have the truth now!" is probably misguided at best.

The problem with any epidemiological study is that you are looking for
correlations, not causes. Sometimes you can wind up with the wrong
conclusions if you do your groupings wrong.

For example, you might see that people who ate meat and potatoes, meat
and pasta, meat and rice tended weight problems, while those who ate
lots of vegetables and beans didn't. You might conclude that meat in
the diet was the problem, whereas it might be the starches or the lack
of vegetables.

>
>Studies do seem to show that being overweight is a major contributor to
>heart disease, no matter how you got there.

The proper word should be correlation. Epidemiological studies can only
show correlations.


>You lose weight by reducing caloric intake. What means you use is highly
>individual. As I said in a previous message, the sorry fact is that most
>people who lose weight by whatever means gain it back, most within a
>relatively short period of time. It ain't easy.

Yes, the 'trick' is finding a diet that you can continue to follow in
'maintenance' mode.

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> For the up-to-date-on-nutrition challenged, I offer the following links:
>
> http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/ris...Atkinsvind.htm
>
> http://thecompounder.com/AtkinsVindicated.html
>
> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...26/7400/1166-h
>
> There are far more available for those that want to google it...
>
> Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
> people. I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at the
> recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
> on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
> DID NOT WORK!!!
>
> is it so hard to believe that the original theories were just plain
> wrong? And the current crop of Doctors were trained that way, so they
> are going to continue to promote it. Sad.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...ets020719.html
>
> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/health/ed..._badcarbs.html
>
> I like this link as it stresses starch carbs vs. "green" carbs.
> One reason I prefer the greenwich diet over Atkins. I'm not a high fat
> fan, (since calories still count) but eggs only have 5 grams each and
> you need up to 25 grams per day to maintain skin health. Eggs are also
> very rich in trace minerals which are difficult to get in a regular diet.
>
> http://www.familyhaven.com/health/mineral.html
>
> The thing with plants and trace minerals is if they are lacking in the
> soil, they will NOT be in the food that is supposed to have them
> according to most nutritional charts. The vast majority of commercial
> farming is now done in depleted soils using commercial fertilizers that
> contain just enough nutrients to get the plants to grow! This is the
> major reason why organic veggies really are more nutritious than
> non-organic.
>
> http://www.mofga.org/food.html
>
> Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
> It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
> At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
>
> K.
>

Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as
individuals they need different things. What works for one person will not
work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best health
you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill, Bob
and Amanda.

kimberly

"david" > wrote in message
...
>
> So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy
> to follow?
>
Nor any potatoes, cakes or croissants either. Of course I'd like to eat all
of these things but it's a trade-off between satisfaction of my gourmand
tendencies and staying in reasonable shape. Giving up a whole lot of carbs
is easier for me than one of those low fat-high carb diets; it has worked in
the sense that the results are good and I'm able to stick with it. YMMV>

"Anthony" > wrote in message
...
>
> "david" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be
easy
> > to follow?
> >
> Nor any potatoes, cakes or croissants either. Of course I'd like to eat
all
> of these things but it's a trade-off between satisfaction of my gourmand
> tendencies and staying in reasonable shape. Giving up a whole lot of
carbs
> is easier for me than one of those low fat-high carb diets; it has worked
in
> the sense that the results are good and I'm able to stick with it. YMMV>

Well that's great for you. I think I would find it very bloody hard. Not
that I've found anything else mind you.

In article >,
"Anthony" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message news:KatraMungBean-
>
> > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
> > It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
> > At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> >
> Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%),
> bp, improved cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat this
> way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid
> starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar including
> the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter,
> oil; easy diet to follow, good results.
>
>

Easy to anyone but a starchaholic. <G>
But I agree, it's easier than most diets, and there is more food that
you CAN eat than you cannot!

And it works for the vast majority.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article >,
"david" > wrote:

> "Anthony" > wrote in message
> news
> >
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> news:KatraMungBean-
> >
> > > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy.
> > > It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
> > > At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> > >
> > Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%),
> > bp, improved cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat
> this
> > way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid
> > starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar
> including
> > the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter,
> > oil; easy diet to follow, good results.
>
> So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy
> to follow?
>
>

Depends on the individual.....

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article >,
(Dan Abel) wrote:

> In article >, Katra
> > wrote:
>
>
> > Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
> > people. I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at the
> > recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
> > on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
> > DID NOT WORK!!!
>
>
> In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type
> that has lots of calories, you are talking about a diet for those who need
> to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high protein diets are not going
> to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough
> that you lose weight, but I'd rather go on statins first) if you are
> looking to lose weight.
>
>
> For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person
> depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some
> variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
> work well for someone else.
>
>
> Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I
> thought that a little self-control in eating less would work. I found
> that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less just meant that I
> ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I
> would fill my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad.
> By filling my stomach like this, I could more easily resist the temptation
> to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Sonoma State University

Hi fiber diet... :-) Similar to what I do with the Greenwhich diet.
It's still low carb!

Then there is the whole concept of "negative calorie foods".
Digestion and metabolic processes DO burn calories, so foods that are
low in calories and high in fiber and water, (and are very filling) tend
to burn more calories to digest and process than they have in them.

Lettuce, Bok Choy, Cabbage (and related veggies) are good "bulk" fillers
for the tummy.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article >,
Default User > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person
> > depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some
> > variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
> > work well for someone else.
>
>
> I agree with that strongly. The business with medical studies is
> extremely tricky. Basically what they do is amass reams of anecdotal
> evidence and sort through looking for correlations. That's because it's
> difficult to perform controlled experiments on people. You can't get
> groups of children, feed them different diets over a span of years, and
> see which group has the higher incidence of heart disease. They aren't
> lab animals. You can do that with medication to a certain extent, but
> not so much with diet. You can have the short term studies, "eat oatmeal
> and your cholesterol goes down or maybe it doesn't."
>
> Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to
> health. Newer studies seem to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the
> old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps these are wrong.
> Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we
> have the truth now!" is probably misguided at best.

Gods that is SO true! :-)
Well stated. <applause>

>
> Studies do seem to show that being overweight is a major contributor to
> heart disease, no matter how you got there.
>
> You lose weight by reducing caloric intake. What means you use is highly
> individual. As I said in a previous message, the sorry fact is that most
> people who lose weight by whatever means gain it back, most within a
> relatively short period of time. It ain't easy.

"Diets" don't work. Period.
It's a matter of changing lifestyles, permanently.
Eat less, move more. The equation is simple.

But the fact remains that in order for your body to function (on it's
main fuel of glucose), protien is a far less efficient fuel than simple
carbs. Hence the huge number of folks flocking to low carb diets.

If you can lose weight on carbs, then KEEP it off, congrats. :-)

>
>
>
> Brian Rodenborn

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article <5bZRb.1053$IF1.576@fed1read01>, "Nexis" >
wrote:

>
> Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as
> individuals they need different things. What works for one person will not
> work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best health
> you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill, Bob
> and Amanda.
>
> kimberly
>

Excellent point... ;-)
Just get checked out. Many grossly obese people have insulin resistance.
It's as common as dirt. Low carbing seems to be the easiest answer to
that problem.

Find a decent family doc or internest that will work with you for the
best results!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article >,
(carmen) wrote:

> Thanks for these articles. I am doing the no bread, potatoes
> ....starchy carbs. But havent lost this month. Lost 40 now Im
> struggling.
> Carmen
>

Are you excercizing? :-)
Sometimes just a simple walking program will help.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby >,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

On 2004-01-29, Katra > wrote:
>
> Hi fiber diet...

I guaran-damn-tee you Atkins IS high fiber! Hadda buy a chainsaw.

nb

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article <5bZRb.1053$IF1.576@fed1read01>, "Nexis" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as
> > individuals they need different things. What works for one person will
not
> > work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best
health
> > you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill,
Bob
> > and Amanda.
> >
> > kimberly
> >
>
> Excellent point... ;-)
> Just get checked out. Many grossly obese people have insulin resistance.
> It's as common as dirt. Low carbing seems to be the easiest answer to
> that problem.
>
> Find a decent family doc or internest that will work with you for the
> best results!
>
> K.
>

Actually, you don't have to be overweight to have insulin resistance. There
are many things that are believed to be precursors, including polycystic
ovarian syndrome. In most cases, low carbing isn't enough and may not help.
The key is less about the number of carbs than the type. Highly processed
flour and sugar based foods are the worst. I honestly believe the abundance
of them available is at least partially to blame for the increase in many
health problems, not the least of which is Type II diabetes, and insulin
resistance.
I would encourage anyone who is experiencing any of the following to be
checked for insulin resistance and possibly diabetes:
frequent bouts of exhaustion
frequent headaches
lack of energy
frequent thirst
dry or pasty feeling mouth
lower back pain (can be a sign of kidney problems)
blurred vision (does *not* need to be constant; can be intermittent)
tingling in hands or feet- can be as little as a toe, or the whole appendage
frequent urge to urinate
feeling dizzy/lightheaded after an extended period between meals

kimberly

I'm someone who finds it hard to overeat. Show me one slice of
cheesecake, and I'll tell you it looks delicious. I'll eat it and enjoy
it. If you show me a second slice of cheesecake when I'm done with the
first, I'll find it literally nauseating. I can't imagine eating it. I
don't want it and would find it hard to eat. Nevermind that it is the
same cheesecake that I found so appealing only moments before.


Someone else might have to stop after one bite or wouldn't be able to
handle even that. Another might find 2 slices delicious before
getting full. A fourth person might be able to eat the whole 9" pie
without ever getting sick of it. I'm not exhibiting self control when I
turn down the second slice. The person who can eat the whole pie is
genuinely hungry for more.


It is terribly unfair to blame the ability to eat in moderation or stick
to a diet on character. On another list, a woman said that she's lost
80 pounds by being gnawingly hungry all the time. She's keeping the
weight off by being hungry. I know I could never do that. I don't have
anywhere near that kind of self control. I don't love fast food, but if
I'm hungry and have no other reasonable choices, I'll stop at Burger
King and be glad of it.


I'd love to know more about what causes the differences in people's
reactions to food.


I'll tie this in with the thread on French eating habits. We have a
joke about our shopping. We like to say that we avoid anything
low fat or fat free. Of course that's not entirely true since I make it
a point to serve fruits and vegetables at every meal, and they're
notoriously low fat, but I will check the fat content of cheese,
chocolate and ice cream and make sure I buy the one with the HIGHER fat
content, not the lower. (Exceptions: I buy leaner meats, and I like
the way skim milk goes down with butter cookies.) That's very much the
French way of eating. I find that I'm more satisfied with a smaller
amount of exquisitely wonderful cheese than with a larger amount of
something not as good.


My question is why this sort of eating works so well for me while Atkins
works for the next person and low-carb for someone else and some people
need to count calories.


I wish there were a way of getting a statistically accurate comparison
of the way people think about food. My survey would ask nothing about
the types and amounts of foods eaten, nothing about exercise, but would
include questions about how satisfied and happy people feel at meals and
after them, whether they're relaxed when eating, how long it takes them
to eat, whether they eat with friends or cook for other people, how well
they like their dining companions (family with good relationships,
family with strained relationships, business associates, alone), even
questions about whether they eat on plates that must be washed or
straight out of the cooking utensils, or on disposables. That data
would be combined with the health data about weight, blood pressure,
cholesterol. I believe the research would show that people who are
happiest about food, who look forward to meals the most, who enjoy their
dining compainions the most, who enjoy cooking for themselves and
others, who make eating into a nice ritual instead of something to be
gotten through are also the healthiest regardless of the caloric content
of the food or the source of those calories (fats, carbs, proteins).


--Lia

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:30:10 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2004-01-29, Katra > wrote:
>>
>> Hi fiber diet...
>
>I guaran-damn-tee you Atkins IS high fiber! Hadda buy a chainsaw.

The problem is most people focus in on the initial high protein and high
fat first phase and forget that portion is just a few weeks long. They
seem to assume you eat like that forever.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:48:41 -0800, "Nexis" > wrote:


>Actually, you don't have to be overweight to have insulin resistance. There
>are many things that are believed to be precursors, including polycystic
>ovarian syndrome. In most cases, low carbing isn't enough and may not help.
>The key is less about the number of carbs than the type. Highly processed
>flour and sugar based foods are the worst. I honestly believe the abundance
>of them available is at least partially to blame for the increase in many
>health problems, not the least of which is Type II diabetes, and insulin
>resistance.

Which is what diets like the South Beach diet are about, reducing the
amount of quickly digested sugar and starches from the diet. It is a
diet the fits well for people with insulin resistance.

"Default User" > wrote in message
...
> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a
person
> > depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some
> > variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
> > work well for someone else.
>
>
> I agree with that strongly. The business with medical studies is
> extremely tricky. Basically what they do is amass reams of anecdotal
> evidence and sort through looking for correlations. That's because it's
> difficult to perform controlled experiments on people. You can't get
> groups of children, feed them different diets over a span of years, and
> see which group has the higher incidence of heart disease. They aren't
> lab animals. You can do that with medication to a certain extent, but
> not so much with diet. You can have the short term studies, "eat oatmeal
> and your cholesterol goes down or maybe it doesn't."
>

Medical studies are *not* anecdotal. You are misusing the word. Many do in
fact use post-hoc analysis where you do not tell people what to eat but
rather ask them to keep track of what they eat and then relate that to later
measures of health.

> Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to
> health. Newer studies seem to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the
> old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps these are wrong.
> Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we
> have the truth now!" is probably misguided at best.
>

Most people overlook the fact that the studies that showed high-fat diets to
be unhealth did not limit carbs in any way. There's a lot of evidence that
the amount of carbs you eat has a big effect on what your body does with the
fats in your diet and whether or not they impact your health.

The Atkins diet is often misrepresented as "eat all you want of any high-fat
food." This is not true. Neither is the claim that Atkins is a low-vegetable
diet. Atkins includes tons of vegetables with a few high-carb ones
(potatoes, carrots, corn, for example) restricted. Atkins does not claim to
be the only effective diet. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have
the "fat is bad" mantra permanently embedded in their small brains that they
refuse to face the evidence.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:S2bSb.138114$5V2.708815@attbi_s53...
>
>
> I'm someone who finds it hard to overeat. Show me one slice of
> cheesecake, and I'll tell you it looks delicious. I'll eat it and enjoy
> it. If you show me a second slice of cheesecake when I'm done with the
> first, I'll find it literally nauseating. I can't imagine eating it. I
> don't want it and would find it hard to eat. Nevermind that it is the
> same cheesecake that I found so appealing only moments before.
>
>
> Someone else might have to stop after one bite or wouldn't be able to
> handle even that. Another might find 2 slices delicious before
> getting full. A fourth person might be able to eat the whole 9" pie
> without ever getting sick of it. I'm not exhibiting self control when I
> turn down the second slice. The person who can eat the whole pie is
> genuinely hungry for more.
>
>
> It is terribly unfair to blame the ability to eat in moderation or stick
> to a diet on character. On another list, a woman said that she's lost
> 80 pounds by being gnawingly hungry all the time. She's keeping the
> weight off by being hungry. I know I could never do that. I don't have
> anywhere near that kind of self control. I don't love fast food, but if
> I'm hungry and have no other reasonable choices, I'll stop at Burger
> King and be glad of it.
>
>

Bravo! The idea that character has anything to do with eating habits or
weight is pitifully ridiculous yet all too wide spread. I suspect it has its
origins in the Puritan notions that pleasure is bad and self-denial is good.
CHrist-on-crutches, what nonsense! I know quite a few chubby gourmands who
are intelligent, educated, hard working, honest, and reliable. I have also
met numerous slender folks who are stupid, dishonest, conniving, and petty.
These are real measures of character, not eating or weight.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (Dan Abel) wrote:
>
> > In article >,
Katra
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
> > > people. I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at
the
> > > recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
> > > on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
> > > DID NOT WORK!!!
> >
> >
> > In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type
> > that has lots of calories, you are talking about a diet for those who
need
> > to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high protein diets are not
going
> > to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough
> > that you lose weight, but I'd rather go on statins first) if you are
> > looking to lose weight.
> >
> >
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a
person
> > depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some
> > variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
> > work well for someone else.
> >
> >
> > Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I
> > thought that a little self-control in eating less would work. I found
> > that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less just meant that I
> > ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I
> > would fill my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad.
> > By filling my stomach like this, I could more easily resist the
temptation
> > to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.
> >
> > --
> > Dan Abel
> > Sonoma State University
>
> Hi fiber diet... :-) Similar to what I do with the Greenwhich diet.
> It's still low carb!
>
> Then there is the whole concept of "negative calorie foods".
> Digestion and metabolic processes DO burn calories, so foods that are
> low in calories and high in fiber and water, (and are very filling) tend
> to burn more calories to digest and process than they have in them.
>

High-fiber foods certainly have their advantages but requiring more calories
to digest is not one of them. In fact the definition of fiber is that it is
*not* digested. One main advantage of fiber is that it slows the digestion
and absorption of carbs and thus levels out your insulin levels. The ads
that claim you will burn more calories digesting certain foods are pure BS.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"notbob" > wrote in message
news:6E2Sb.174225$I06.1762517@attbi_s01...
> On 2004-01-29, Katra > wrote:
> >
> > Hi fiber diet...
>
> I guaran-damn-tee you Atkins IS high fiber! Hadda buy a chainsaw.
>
> nb

Ouch!


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Nexis" > wrote in message
news:5bZRb.1053$IF1.576@fed1read01...
>
>
> Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as
> individuals they need different things. What works for one person will not
> work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best health
> you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill,
Bob
> and Amanda.
>
> kimberly
>

True as far as it goes, but one must realize that some things work for a lot
of people, some work for a few people, and some work for nobody. By
investigating you can determine what will probably work for you, what might
work for you, and what will not work for you or anyone.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

In article <JPaSb.1987$IF1.1075@fed1read01>, "Nexis" >
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <5bZRb.1053$IF1.576@fed1read01>, "Nexis" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as
> > > individuals they need different things. What works for one person will
> not
> > > work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best
> health
> > > you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill,
> Bob
> > > and Amanda.
> > >
> > > kimberly
> > >
> >
> > Excellent point... ;-)
> > Just get checked out. Many grossly obese people have insulin resistance.
> > It's as common as dirt. Low carbing seems to be the easiest answer to
> > that problem.
> >
> > Find a decent family doc or internest that will work with you for the
> > best results!
> >
> > K.
> >
>
> Actually, you don't have to be overweight to have insulin resistance. There
> are many things that are believed to be precursors, including polycystic
> ovarian syndrome. In most cases, low carbing isn't enough and may not help.
> The key is less about the number of carbs than the type. Highly processed
> flour and sugar based foods are the worst. I honestly believe the abundance
> of them available is at least partially to blame for the increase in many
> health problems, not the least of which is Type II diabetes, and insulin
> resistance.

Sorry. Should have specified starch and sugar. ;-o My bad.
I'm a big fan of "green carbs" so fresh baby spinach, Swiss and rainbow
chard, bok choy, and savoy cabbage have become regulars in our diet. :-)
Greens go great stir fry.

> I would encourage anyone who is experiencing any of the following to be
> checked for insulin resistance and possibly diabetes:
> frequent bouts of exhaustion
> frequent headaches
> lack of energy
> frequent thirst
> dry or pasty feeling mouth
> lower back pain (can be a sign of kidney problems)
> blurred vision (does *not* need to be constant; can be intermittent)
> tingling in hands or feet- can be as little as a toe, or the whole appendage
> frequent urge to urinate
> feeling dizzy/lightheaded after an extended period between meals
>
> kimberly

Excellent advice. :-)

The tingling thing tho' can also be associated with low Magnesium levels.
That can also be improved by an increase in greens which are high in
Magnesium. Be careful tho' as those can also be high in Oxalates which
can contribute to Oxalate kidney stones.

Drink lotsa water. That is good advice for ANY diet!
2 to 3 liters per day.

K.

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In article <S2bSb.138114$5V2.708815@attbi_s53>,
Julia Altshuler > wrote:

<snipped>
>
>
> I wish there were a way of getting a statistically accurate comparison
> of the way people think about food. My survey would ask nothing about
> the types and amounts of foods eaten, nothing about exercise, but would
> include questions about how satisfied and happy people feel at meals and
> after them, whether they're relaxed when eating, how long it takes them
> to eat, whether they eat with friends or cook for other people, how well
> they like their dining companions (family with good relationships,
> family with strained relationships, business associates, alone), even
> questions about whether they eat on plates that must be washed or
> straight out of the cooking utensils, or on disposables. That data
> would be combined with the health data about weight, blood pressure,
> cholesterol. I believe the research would show that people who are
> happiest about food, who look forward to meals the most, who enjoy their
> dining compainions the most, who enjoy cooking for themselves and
> others, who make eating into a nice ritual instead of something to be
> gotten through are also the healthiest regardless of the caloric content
> of the food or the source of those calories (fats, carbs, proteins).
>
>
> --Lia
>
>

You bring up some excellent points. ;-)
The only thing I have to add here about the whole will power thing is
that I used to be able to sit and eat a whole pound of chocolate.

I can't do that now! One or two bites and I'm done. The very thought of
eating more makes me nauseous. :-P Same with just about any sweets.

Same goes for the constant availability of donuts and various types of
cake at work. At one time I'd have been overwhelmingly tempted.

Now I look at them, shrug and walk off.

Was it my initial changes to a low carb diet that are responsible for my
current lack of interest in high sugar foods where I used to not be able
to resist them??? It does not take any willpower now. I am truly not the
least bit interested in consuming them.

I don't know. :-) I'm curious about theories about this phenomenon.
Same goes for my loss of interest in high sodium foods.

Is it psychological or physiological?

K.

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Naomi Darvell wrote:

> One thing you don't hear very much, but which I think has some bearing on diet
> discussions, is that there are a lot of people walking around who have
> completely screwed up senses of hunger and satiety, as well as screwed up
> metabolisms, from lifelong dieting.


I'd like to know if the screwed up sense of hunger and satiety and
metabolism is from dieting or if something was screwed up in the first
place that caused the person to feel a need to diet. I have no idea how
to devise a clinical study for that. Judging from the people I know, it
could be either or both.

--Lia

Dan Abel wrote:
> Katra wrote:
>
> > Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing
> > people.

That's an extreme view.

> > I've known several myself that went on that type of diet at the
> > recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go
> > on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes
> > DID NOT WORK!!!

Saying a diet didn't work is hugely different from saying is kills.

> In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type
> that has lots of calories, you are talking about a diet for those who need
> to gain weight.

If and only if "high" means what you think.

Let's say I'm a standard issue At-kid eating 1800 calories fixes (when
averaged across a week but wide variation day to day). Before starting
Atkins I maybe at 80 grams of fat (border betwen low and not-low), 100ish
grams of protein (neither low nor high) and a lot of carbs fill make up
the rest of the calories. Then at teh same total 1800 calories and the
same 100ish grams of protein I start Atkins and switch to 20 grams of
carb (low) and the rest fat grams to fill out the 1800 calorie total,
around 140ish. Is 140ish grams of fat "high"? When within a reasonable
1800 calorie daily total? It is by the standard Atkins definition.

But how many people read "high" and think it is added on top of the
calorie total not worked within a fixed calorie total? Yet their
thinking isn't what Atkins is about.

> For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person
> depends more on psychology than anything else.

Depends on the person. One lesson of Atkins is that swings of blood
sugar from insulin levels from dietary carbs is physiological not
psychological for a fair percentage of people. High carb food does
trigger cravings for them, low carb food solves the cravings.
Another lesson of Atkins is that some people have addictions to
certain foods as a result of intolerance reactions. Once these
people find out the trigger food and avoid it, they no longer have
cravings. Neither lesson works for everyone, but one or both work
for a lot of people.

In my case my problem with low fat was wheat. I'm intolerant of
anything with wheat and I have an addictive pattern of behavior to
anything with wheat in it. Any diet that pushes me to eat pasta,
will trigger binges where I eat all of the pasta on the table and
then move on to everything else. Others react to corn, others have
lesser reactions to assorted stuff. And many people are free of this
issie and for them it is indeed psychological.

> If Atkins or some
> variation works well for you, that's great. That doesn't mean it will
> work well for someone else.

Right. Try stuff until you find what does work for you, don't knock
what works for others.

> Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I
> thought that a little self-control in eating less would work. I found
> that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less just meant that I
> ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I
> would fill my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad.
> By filling my stomach like this, I could more easily resist the temptation
> to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.

That's a strategy that wouldn't work for me. If the high calorie dish
had wheat in it, it wouldn't matter if I had room. Addictive behavior
pattern with a physical trigger.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:20:50 -0600, Katra
> wrote:

>I don't know. :-) I'm curious about theories about this phenomenon.
>Same goes for my loss of interest in high sodium foods.
>
>Is it psychological or physiological?
>
>K.

when i was in high school, almost every day i had an ice cream
sandwich and a piece of cherry pie for lunch. now i can barely look
them in the face.

your pal,
blake

In article >,
"Peter Aitken" > wrote:

>
> Most people overlook the fact that the studies that showed high-fat diets to
> be unhealth did not limit carbs in any way. There's a lot of evidence that
> the amount of carbs you eat has a big effect on what your body does with the
> fats in your diet and whether or not they impact your health.

Gods. So true!!!
Did ANY of the "high fat" studies restrict carbs in any way???

>
> The Atkins diet is often misrepresented as "eat all you want of any high-fat
> food." This is not true. Neither is the claim that Atkins is a low-vegetable
> diet. Atkins includes tons of vegetables with a few high-carb ones
> (potatoes, carrots, corn, for example) restricted. Atkins does not claim to
> be the only effective diet. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have
> the "fat is bad" mantra permanently embedded in their small brains that they
> refuse to face the evidence.

Yep. :-)

Kat

>
>
> --
> Peter Aitken
>
> Remove the crap from my email address before using.

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In article >,
"Peter Aitken" > wrote:

> "Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> news:S2bSb.138114$5V2.708815@attbi_s53...
> >
> >
> > I'm someone who finds it hard to overeat. Show me one slice of
> > cheesecake, and I'll tell you it looks delicious. I'll eat it and enjoy
> > it. If you show me a second slice of cheesecake when I'm done with the
> > first, I'll find it literally nauseating. I can't imagine eating it. I
> > don't want it and would find it hard to eat. Nevermind that it is the
> > same cheesecake that I found so appealing only moments before.
> >
> >
> > Someone else might have to stop after one bite or wouldn't be able to
> > handle even that. Another might find 2 slices delicious before
> > getting full. A fourth person might be able to eat the whole 9" pie
> > without ever getting sick of it. I'm not exhibiting self control when I
> > turn down the second slice. The person who can eat the whole pie is
> > genuinely hungry for more.
> >
> >
> > It is terribly unfair to blame the ability to eat in moderation or stick
> > to a diet on character. On another list, a woman said that she's lost
> > 80 pounds by being gnawingly hungry all the time. She's keeping the
> > weight off by being hungry. I know I could never do that. I don't have
> > anywhere near that kind of self control. I don't love fast food, but if
> > I'm hungry and have no other reasonable choices, I'll stop at Burger
> > King and be glad of it.
> >
> >
>
> Bravo! The idea that character has anything to do with eating habits or
> weight is pitifully ridiculous yet all too wide spread. I suspect it has its
> origins in the Puritan notions that pleasure is bad and self-denial is good.
> CHrist-on-crutches, what nonsense! I know quite a few chubby gourmands who
> are intelligent, educated, hard working, honest, and reliable. I have also
> met numerous slender folks who are stupid, dishonest, conniving, and petty.
> These are real measures of character, not eating or weight.

Yep. Pain and self deprivation are virtuous...

What a crock. ;-)

K.

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