sf wrote:

> Downtowns are still shooting themselves in the foot, at least here.
> They want shoppers but they don't want cars. They don't have enough
> public parking lots; street parking almost non existent; traffic in
> city center is restricted and parking meters only are not only
> expensive - the hours are being pushed past 6PM to 10 or midnight in
> some areas; public transportation is a nightmare for anyone off a main
> line and taxis are not in abundance anywhere other than hotels and the
> airport. It's no surprise shoppers prefer going to malls.

The downtown ares of the cities around here have been dying a slow
death. They keep coming up with grant money for various projects to
attract people. They festivals and parades. One thing they do not do is
improve parking. To compound that problem, they enforce parking strictly.

If can go to local malls, strip malls and box store farms and easily
find a parking space and park for free, or I can drive downtown and
search for a parking space within a few blocks of the store I want. Then
I have to fish around for change for the meter. Since parking is getting
expensive I may need more change than I normally require. Then after I
get my things in that store I have to get back to the car before my
meter runs out. That means that if I see something that interests me I
may not have time to get it, unless I go back and put more money in the
meter.

Most cities now have those machines that will take credit cards. If I
have a half hour left but might be an hour, I will be wasting the money
I paid for that half hour when I pay for a new slip for the extra time.


If you want to see our incompetent some cities are, look at
St.Catharines Ont. Back in the early 60s they made the two major
downtown streets one way. The main street was one way in one direction
and the parallel street one block over was one way in the opposite. It
wasn't rocket science to find your way around. Last year they started
working on changing that, claiming that two way traffic would attract
more people. Then they did that in stages. It messed things up totally.

The main street is now two way traffic, except the last block. They ran
into a snag because it branches off to a number three other streets.
They haven't figured out how to deal with traffic at that multi road
intersection. One would have expected that they would have realized that
it was going to be a problem and that they should have come up with a
solution to it before they changed everything else.

Steve Pope wrote:
> Andy > wrote:
>
>> A couple years ago, someone linked me to a video exposé of Monsanto's
>> genetically engineered soybeans to ward off some pest. The problem grew
>> as their soybeans were used so far and wide that even the organic soy
>> fields across country borders were being contaminated by Monsanto's
>> genetically engineered soybean pollen "fallout" blowing in the wind.
>
> It's worse than that; Monsanto sued the organic farmers for
> infringement, on the basis they were growing the GM product without
> paying royalties.
>
> Steve

Don't even get me thinking about Monsanto.

--
Jean B.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 01:28:10 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> wrote:
>
>"Bogbrush" > wrote in message
>>
>> I think Ed might have been eating too much of wal mart "thicky beans" or
>> something. He doesn't seem too clued into reality. I honestly never read
>> anything quite as dumb arse on the net before as his claims. And he's up
>> against some pretty stiff opposition.
>
>I'll check back tomorrow to see if you have evidence of big box stores
>forcing customers to stay away from the local merchants. Perhaps you have
>news clippings of Wal Mart putting up a blockade, or Home Depot blocking the
>downtown streets. I've met a few people like you, too dumb to know who the
>real culprit is.

It's interesting to read all the WalMart bashing.

In my community, WalMart is the busiest retailer,
while KMart, Target, and the local mall stores are empty.

Shoppers vote with their feet....
and with their pocketbooks.

brooklyn1 > writes:

> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:20:28 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"gloria.p" > wrote in message
>>> their presence has forced many
>>> small local stores to go out of business. Many Main Streets have been
>>> all but abandoned when a Walmart opens nearby.
>>>
>>> Enough?
>>
>>Wall Mart or any of the big box store have never forced any local store to
>>go out of business.
>>
>>Small downtown stores started going out of business in the 60's when people
>>decided it was more fun to go to the mall than downtown to shop. You get
>>reasons like the lack of parking down town while that same person will walk
>>three times the distance from the mall parking lot.
>>
>>Customers (or the lack of), not Wal-Mart put the little store out of
>>business.
>
> Also the vast majority of little stores were mom-pops... their kids
> didn't want to work in the store nor did the mom-pops want their kids
> to work hard and struggle when they could become MDs, Lawyers, and
> CPAs. Most small stores ceased to be because of attrition... agreed,
> Walmart and its ilk had not a whit to do with it. When folks are
> themselves struggling and filled with bitterness they strike out at
> anything to blame (except themselves), Walmart makes a grand whipping
> post for the losers... however the very same losers who rail against
> Walmart the loudest shop Walmart the most.
>

****-a-duck. This group is filled with lunatics. Big stores like Walmart
and Tesco in the UK are springing up and making billions a year. Where
do you think their customers shopped before? You guys (and those
pretending to be girls) are simply insane if you keep parroting this
nonsense about good'ol Mom & Pop stores dying out because of
attrition. They are dying out because they can not compete with huge
companies like these under cutting them. Grow a clue you dozy idiot.

Janet Wilder > wrote:

>The American culture of unions is what killed manufacturing in the US

Having worked in manufacturing for over 30 years I
don't believe that one bit!

I've seen companies make the dumbest choices outside of
union business that would make you sick to your stomach
as far as "waste"

And I'm an engineer.....never was union member

"Dave Bugg" > writes:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Bogbrush" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> I think Ed might have been eating too much of wal mart "thicky
>>>> beans" or something. He doesn't seem too clued into reality. I
>>>> honestly never read anything quite as dumb arse on the net before
>>>> as his claims. And he's up against some pretty stiff opposition.
>>>
>>> I'll check back tomorrow to see if you have evidence of big box
>>> stores forcing customers to stay away from the local merchants.
>>> Perhaps you have news clippings of Wal Mart putting up a blockade,
>>> or Home Depot blocking the downtown streets. I've met a few people
>>> like you, too dumb to know who the real culprit is.
>>
>> Thanks for arguing with Boggy. Saves me the trouble. I read a few of
>> his posts, and once I figured out that he had nothing constructive to
>> say, and his arguments consisted of things like "dumb arse", into the
>> KF he went.
>
> Amen to that. Boggy hasn't yet figured out that *facts* are a quite
> different animal from that of one's *opinion*. Reading his spoutings of
> school-yard name calling .... name-calling which isn't clever, to boot ....
> makes him KF fodder.

The FACTS are that where the likes of Walmart open up then the majority
of the small shops near by close down you ignorant ******. Do you think
their customers suddenly magically appear out of nowhere?

sf > wrote:

> wrote:

>> Most small retail stores started to die in the 1960's. They were done in by
>> the combination of the Interstate Highway system and the shopping mall.
>> Every year, more people decided to not go downtown, but to go to the mall
>> instead. Where I live, the stores were pretty much gone long before Wal
>> Mart and cheap goods existed.

>Downtowns are still shooting themselves in the foot, at least here.
>They want shoppers but they don't want cars. They don't have enough
>public parking lots; street parking almost non existent; traffic in
>city center is restricted and parking meters only are not only
>expensive - the hours are being pushed past 6PM to 10 or midnight in
>some areas; public transportation is a nightmare for anyone off a main
>line and taxis are not in abundance anywhere other than hotels and the
>airport. It's no surprise shoppers prefer going to malls.

This is the conventional, auto-centric point of view in which
success is measured by shoppers arriving by private vehicle.

Myself, I am disappointed that Berkeley permitted underground
parking lots below the new Trader Joes and the new Bowl.
They should instead amplify their push towards getting private
vehicles off the road, particularly by expanding Bus Rapid Transit
and proceeding to declare major local arteries to be open only to
professionally driven vehicles.

I am even more disappointed by the faux Tuscan architecture
of the new Trader Joe's building. When will people learn
that there are a lot of ugly buildings in Tuscany? The food
is great, but that does not mean we should duplicate their buildings!

Steve

sf > wrote:

>I *love* downtown Petaluma!

I have to agree. Of course there is no chance of there being
more than minimal public transit there (unless the rail line
is re-opened, and that is very unlikely). But they did
a good job with what they had to work with. There is
plenty of food traffic, placing it right up there with San Rafael,
and a far sight better than Santa Rosa.

Steve

On 2/21/2010 4:31 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> You got stock in Walmart ED?
>>>
>>> When walmart has a lawnmower for $99.00 made in China, and the local
>>> hardware store has an American made lawmower for $122.00 his lowest
>>> price, because he can't sell for less and stay in business, who do you
>>> think the consumer will buy from? So your Walmart didn't do it is
>>> completly wrong, and this wrong is happening all over the USA. They
>>> sell chinese products to Joe Lunchbox, and main street USA is dieing
>>> because of it. Go to Walmart and see how many USA products they
>>> actually sell, I bet 10% max., where 20 years ago it was 10% imports.
>>> One other thing, try to get a union into a Walmart, they'd rather
>>> close a store than allow it. Why you ask, it's simple ED they don't
>>> want to pay a wage people can live on.
>
> Huh? Yo, shit for brains, get an education, learn a trade... then ya
> can get paid a living wage. Yer not supposed get paid a living wage
> when all ya are is a 40 year old stock BOY pothead living home in
> mommy n' daddy's basement. The vast majority of Walmart type jobs
> are supposed to be part time, seasonal, and minimum wage... ya think a
> guy who just retrieves shopping carts from the parking lot should be
> paid enough to own a big house in the good part of town, support 3.5
> kids, have two Irish setters (with no legs), and attract a stay at
> home wife with big tits... yer mentally ill. LOL-LOL
>
>
>
You apparently don't realize (as usual) how out of touch you are with
reality. Not that long ago we had a manufacturing base which provided
good jobs for folks with a wide range of skills. Plus there were
numerous other businesses that provided support for those manufacturing
companies (machine shop, hydraulics, automation etc). A very large
percentage of those companies are *gone*.

I recently drove around in an industrial park that is about an hour from
here that probably represented 6,000 jobs and there are practically no
businesses in operation. The site of the former premier business in that
park has been turned into a logistics center (fancy word for warehouse).
This is not all unusual. Stop and look around sometime. This is just
like your view of NYC that reflects what was a quarter century ago.
Times have changed..

<RJ> wrote:

>It's interesting to read all the WalMart bashing.
>
>In my community, WalMart is the busiest retailer,
>while KMart, Target, and the local mall stores are empty.

>Shoppers vote with their feet....

Nobody said there aren't communities full of mindless clones.

Steve

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:07:37 -0600, Stu > wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:17:16 -0500, brooklyn1
> wrote:
>
>
>>It's not fair to paint all Walmarts with the same brush... I
>>found that holds true with all stores... a store, its staff, and its
>>clientelle accurately reflects the atmosphere of its location...
>>that's what realtors mean by "location location location", if you live
>>in a shitty location your Walmart will be shitty too. I shop the
>>Sam's Club north of me, also near Glenmont, a very nice store, just as
>>nice as the nearby Walmart. But I've also shopped the Sam's Club a
>>good ways south of me, past Hudson, very trashy, I won't be returning
>>there either.
>
>Actually that's incorrect. Walmart the corporation runs all these
>stores, they are not franchised out so they are ultimately
>responsible.

Responsible for what, the caliber of patrons?
You're functionally illiterate.

On 2/21/2010 1:41 PM, Janet Wilder wrote:
> gloria.p wrote:
>> PLucas1 wrote:
>>> "gloria.p" > wrote in
>>> -
>>> september.org:
>>>
>>>> sf wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:14:21 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a SAMS but seems the same.
>>>>> I hope the people who shop at Sam's realize that Sam is Sam Walton of
>>>>> Walmart fame.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't matter to a lot of people. It does to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> gloria p
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's the beef with them Mrs P ??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Terrible employee treatment/relations is my biggest complaint,
>> followed by poor quality merchandise mostly made in China.
>>
>> Their business model frequently forces their suppliers to
>> bid cheaper prices every year with enough volume so they
>> become the only customer. When the supplier can no longer
>> cut further and make a profit, WM dumps them and they go out
>> of business.
>>
>> They demand large incentives to go into a community (utilities, roads,
>> suspension of property taxes, zoning and environmental exceptions
>> etc.) in exchange for promise of huge volume and accompanying sales
>> taxes. Once the incentives run out, they leave the big, ugly box empty
>> and move to another neighborhood.
>>
>> Their reputation for lower prices (possible because of the huge volume
>> they purchase) is not always true and their presence has forced many
>> small local stores to go out of business. Many Main Streets have been
>> all but abandoned when a Walmart opens nearby.
>>
>> Enough?
>
> May I add something?
>
> You might see familiar labels on WalMart clothing. Just know that the
> manufacturer's deal to supply a line to WalMart must include using their
> brand name. What shoppers don't usually know is that the line in WM is
> specifically made for them and does not reflect the quality the brand
> name normally comes with. WM uses brand name recognition to sell
> inferior products.
>
> As for bad treatment of employees, I don't think they are any worse than
> other large retail corporations. Keeping the majority of personnel as
> part-time is a pretty common practice. I have a friend who worked for WM
> and she has a decent little pension to show for it. She says they were
> good to her. If they were such a sweat shop, how would they get any
> workers?


Look around? Remember we used to have industrial parks filled with
businesses humming away manufacturing stuff?

>
> I do agree with you about the quality of their merchandise and, as I
> stated earlier in the thread, I only buy toiletries and a few other
> things there. Most of what I buy is made by American corporations who
> most probably farm out their own manufacturing to China.
>
>

On 2/21/2010 2:14 PM, Janet Wilder wrote:
> The Cook wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:25:34 -0600, Janet Wilder
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> sf wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:14:21 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's a SAMS but seems the same.
>>>> I hope the people who shop at Sam's realize that Sam is Sam Walton of
>>>> Walmart fame.
>>>>
>>> I knew that. I have been to the corporate headquarters in Arkansas
>>> and went to the visitors center which is in the old 5 and 10 that was
>>> Sam's first store. Very interesting place.
>>>
>>> They have a special building on the corporate campus where merchants
>>> bring their samples to negotiate deals. I didn't get to go in, but I
>>> did see many harried people toting huge, wheeled cases up and down
>>> the steps to that building.
>>
>> Gives you a good idea of how they feel about their prospective
>> suppliers.
>
> They are Capitalists. That's what Capitalists do. I, for one, am not up
> to another round of interfering government regulations and pushy,
> self-serving unions. Whatever the retail situation is, the consumer,
> through buying habits, made it.
>
>
It doesn't have to be that black and white. Capitalism is a good thing
as long as the folks running enterprises have a moral compass. I think
walmart is indefensible.

On Feb 20, 7:30*pm, Kalmia > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 7:22*pm, Shiral > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 19, 4:11*pm, Cindy Fuller >
> > wrote:
>
> > > Ranee's post about the non-availability of good kosher hot dogs at
> > > Costco brought up an interesting sidebar. *She said that she and Rich
> > > had let their Costco membership lapse. *The SO and I have debated for
> > > years about the value of getting a Costco membership. *I briefly had a
> > > Sam's Club membership many years ago, but I let it lapse because there
> > > wasn't one nearby when I moved from Dallas to Ithaca in 1986. *Our
> > > neighbors are big Costco aficionados, and my relatives back east are
> > > devotees of BJ's and Sam's. *To my thinking, a membership doesn't make
> > > much sense for the two of us. *We don't have oodles of space to store
> > > large quantities of stuff. *Anyone in a small household want to chime in
> > > one way or another?
>
> > > Cindy
>
> > > --
> > > C.J. Fuller
>
> > > Delete the obvious to email me
>
> > I live alone with little storage space, so I don't buy huge packages
> > of anything. *I do buy most meat I eat at Costco though, and then
> > repackage what I buy into convenient serving sizes in ziplock freezer
> > bags for ease of storage and defrost them as I need them. I save BIG
> > over regular grocery store prices and definitely save more than going
> > to restaurants. Entree prices for dinner at a not very fancy
> > restaurant could easily cost what I pay for a package of pork chops at
> > Costco. *I also buy some vitamin pills there, and bought my new TV
> > last year and my original desktop computer at Costco. So I feel the
> > membership is easily worth $50.00 per year, for me. (And I hate
> > Walmart, and many of their business practices.)
>
> > Melissa
>
> How many miles is it to your Costco and is it on the way to anywhere
> else you frequent? *I think this must be a major factor in why ppl
> join. *So in your case?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's pretty close to where I live--about a five minute drive. It's in
the same shopping plaza where I buy my pet food, so yes, convenience
is a definite factor in my case. I live in a pretty urban area.

Melissa

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:41:44 -0600, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

> As for bad treatment of employees, I don't think they are any worse than
> other large retail corporations. Keeping the majority of personnel as
> part-time is a pretty common practice. I have a friend who worked for WM
> and she has a decent little pension to show for it. She says they were
> good to her.

Sounds like she started working there when Sam was still in charge.

> If they were such a sweat shop, how would they get any workers?

Not a sweat shop, the only game in town. If those people could work
somewhere else, they would.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Bogbrush" > wrote
> What killed the mom and pop stores was the car and corrupt politicians
> allowing the opening of these monstrosities every 50km or so.


OK, I'll agree with you there. The Communist Party should determine where
we can shop and the prices we pay.

"George" > wrote in message
>
> Look around? Remember we used to have industrial parks filled with
> businesses humming away manufacturing stuff?

They moved to China because we don't want $15 toasters, we want $7 toasters.
If another store opens up and sells $6 toasters, we'll all start to shop
there.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:39:29 -0800, Dan Abel > wrote:

>In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:35:25 -0600, Omelet >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Try a peroxide based bleach. It's easier on clothing.
>>
>> Are you saying that peroxide, the stuff you buy in the brown bottle at
>> the drugstore, works on mold?
>
>Well, it will certainly turn it white. Look what it does to hair!
>However, I would think that it would bleach clothing also, but don't
>really know.

My best friend was an ER nurse and when they got blood on their
scrubs, they'd reach for H202, pour it on the spot and dab at the
protein (I think) that was raised up in the bubble lather and the
blood spot would be gone. She warned me it may lighten the area.

Having discovered the benefits of Hydrogen Peroxide, when my nasty cat
brings in a rodent and chews most of it up, I pour H202 on the spot,
the nasty stuff bubbles up, and I wipe it away with several paper
towels and the rug is perfect.

One more H202 hint fro the dental hygienist. Mix it 1:1 with water
and it is good for gleaning hard places in one's mouth. If you have a
syringe, you can just aim the stuff. Apparently is as effective as
mouthwash and just cost pennies.

Disclaimer-, I get no monetary gain from telling you the beauty of
H202 vbg.

aloha,
Cea

sf wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:13:36 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> > wrote:
>
>> Most small retail stores started to die in the 1960's. They were done in by
>> the combination of the Interstate Highway system and the shopping mall.
>> Every year, more people decided to not go downtown, but to go to the mall
>> instead. Where I live, the stores were pretty much gone long before Wal
>> Mart and cheap goods existed.
>
> Downtowns are still shooting themselves in the foot, at least here.
> They want shoppers but they don't want cars. They don't have enough
> public parking lots; street parking almost non existent; traffic in
> city center is restricted and parking meters only are not only
> expensive - the hours are being pushed past 6PM to 10 or midnight in
> some areas; public transportation is a nightmare for anyone off a main
> line and taxis are not in abundance anywhere other than hotels and the
> airport. It's no surprise shoppers prefer going to malls.
>


In Denver an awful lot of downtown real estate is privately owned. The
owners who do have parking lots charge a fortune to park or cater to
motorists who rent on a monthly basis. Price per square foot is too
expensive for most municipalities struggling with more important budget
items.

gloria p

George wrote:

> You apparently don't realize (as usual) how out of touch you are with
> reality. Not that long ago we had a manufacturing base which provided
> good jobs for folks with a wide range of skills. Plus there were
> numerous other businesses that provided support for those manufacturing
> companies (machine shop, hydraulics, automation etc). A very large
> percentage of those companies are *gone*.
>
> I recently drove around in an industrial park that is about an hour from
> here that probably represented 6,000 jobs and there are practically no
> businesses in operation. The site of the former premier business in that
> park has been turned into a logistics center (fancy word for warehouse).
> This is not all unusual. Stop and look around sometime. This is just
> like your view of NYC that reflects what was a quarter century ago.
> Times have changed..



We have lost a lot of high paying jobs in this area. I had a summer job
at Union Carbide for several summers. It paid more than twice as much
per hour that job than I did in the department store where I had been
working part time. There were 1500 people working in that plant. It is
gone now. In the same city there were several other steel plants. They
are all gone now. Thousands of high paying jobs are gone in that city of
about 50,000. Now they have call centre..... and a Walmart.

George wrote:
> It doesn't have to be that black and white. Capitalism is a good thing
> as long as the folks running enterprises have a moral compass. I think
> walmart is indefensible.

Capitalism makes some good things happen. WalMart is another matter. I
will not shop there. I am less interested in saving a few dollars per
week than I am in living in a Wally world. Sure you save a few bucks on
their dumbed down products. Then you have to replace them, so you end up
spending more. You are better off to pay a little more for a quality
product that does not wear out as quickly.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> "Bogbrush" > wrote
>> What killed the mom and pop stores was the car and corrupt politicians
>> allowing the opening of these monstrosities every 50km or so.
>
>
> OK, I'll agree with you there. The Communist Party should determine
> where we can shop and the prices we pay.

Yep... and there have never been cases of corporations fixing prices.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> "George" > wrote in message
>>
>> Look around? Remember we used to have industrial parks filled with
>> businesses humming away manufacturing stuff?
>
> They moved to China because we don't want $15 toasters, we want $7
> toasters. If another store opens up and sells $6 toasters, we'll all
> start to shop there.


Curious isn't it. We want $7 toasters and are willing to replace them
every year. We don't want to spend $15 on one that will last 10 years.

On 2/21/2010 7:12 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> George wrote:
>> It doesn't have to be that black and white. Capitalism is a good thing
>> as long as the folks running enterprises have a moral compass. I think
>> walmart is indefensible.
>
> Capitalism makes some good things happen. WalMart is another matter. I
> will not shop there. I am less interested in saving a few dollars per
> week than I am in living in a Wally world. Sure you save a few bucks on
> their dumbed down products. Then you have to replace them, so you end up
> spending more. You are better off to pay a little more for a quality
> product that does not wear out as quickly.

Would you care to give us some examples of these "dumbed down" products?

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:34:02 -0600, Andy > wrote:

> I'm more interested in minimally and unprocessed foods. That mostly means
> Trader Joe's products. For a few cents more it's worth it to not embalm
> yourself while you eat.

Speak for yourself! I need all the preservatives I can get.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 2/21/2010 4:44 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> In > ,
> Janet > wrote:
>
>
>> ....but we, the consumer, bought it. Really, George, can you think of
>> any product made now that has the quality of the same item made 10 years
>> ago? Nothing is fixable. Everything is disposable.
>
> I have to wonder, though. After WWII, the Japanese were desperate to
> sell stuff. Anything. They had no time for development or quality
> control. "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "crap". Things are
> different now. My son bought a kitchen knife recently. US$200. Made
> in Japan.

The Japanese right after the war were doing the best they could with
what they had--they were not used to making crap--remember, at the start
of the war they were making arguably the best fighter airplane in the
world, and unarguably the best torpedoes, and their Navy was able to
give the US Navy a _very_ hard time until US production turned the tide.
They were adopting what has come to be known as "Japanese management"
_before_ the war.

After the war when they became aware that their goods were identified as
low quality junk they formed an industry cooperative and government
agency to turn that image around, and they did.

The question is whether the Chinese will do the same thing.

> The Chinese have come a *long* way in a *short* time. What will Chinese
> products be like in ten years? Fifty?

Maybe they'll be outstanding, maybe they'll still be a mixed bag, maybe
they'll have another cultural revolution, maybe they'll turn inward
again, or maybe the rest of the world will shut down their CO2-belching
power plants for them the hard way. Lotta maybes there.

China could have been top dog millennia ago, but they didn't care about
anything but China.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
| On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:07:37 -0600, Stu > wrote:
|
| >On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:17:16 -0500, brooklyn1
| > wrote:
| >
| >
| >>It's not fair to paint all Walmarts with the same brush... I
| >>found that holds true with all stores... a store, its staff, and its
| >>clientelle accurately reflects the atmosphere of its location...
| >>that's what realtors mean by "location location location", if you live
| >>in a shitty location your Walmart will be shitty too. I shop the
| >>Sam's Club north of me, also near Glenmont, a very nice store, just as
| >>nice as the nearby Walmart. But I've also shopped the Sam's Club a
| >>good ways south of me, past Hudson, very trashy, I won't be returning
| >>there either.
| >
| >Actually that's incorrect. Walmart the corporation runs all these
| >stores, they are not franchised out so they are ultimately
| >responsible.
|
| Responsible for what, the caliber of patrons?
| You're functionally illiterate.

For the caliber of the store, you dunce.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:32:24 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

><RJ> wrote:
>
>>It's interesting to read all the WalMart bashing.
>>
>>In my community, WalMart is the busiest retailer,
>>while KMart, Target, and the local mall stores are empty.
>
>>Shoppers vote with their feet....
>
>Nobody said there aren't communities full of mindless clones.

Where's that... I want to avoid going where you and your mindless ilk
live.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:32:00 -0500, George >
wrote:

>On 2/21/2010 4:31 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You got stock in Walmart ED?
>>>>
>>>> When walmart has a lawnmower for $99.00 made in China, and the local
>>>> hardware store has an American made lawmower for $122.00 his lowest
>>>> price, because he can't sell for less and stay in business, who do you
>>>> think the consumer will buy from? So your Walmart didn't do it is
>>>> completly wrong, and this wrong is happening all over the USA. They
>>>> sell chinese products to Joe Lunchbox, and main street USA is dieing
>>>> because of it. Go to Walmart and see how many USA products they
>>>> actually sell, I bet 10% max., where 20 years ago it was 10% imports.
>>>> One other thing, try to get a union into a Walmart, they'd rather
>>>> close a store than allow it. Why you ask, it's simple ED they don't
>>>> want to pay a wage people can live on.
>>
>> Huh? Yo, shit for brains, get an education, learn a trade... then ya
>> can get paid a living wage. Yer not supposed get paid a living wage
>> when all ya are is a 40 year old stock BOY pothead living home in
>> mommy n' daddy's basement. The vast majority of Walmart type jobs
>> are supposed to be part time, seasonal, and minimum wage... ya think a
>> guy who just retrieves shopping carts from the parking lot should be
>> paid enough to own a big house in the good part of town, support 3.5
>> kids, have two Irish setters (with no legs), and attract a stay at
>> home wife with big tits... yer mentally ill. LOL-LOL
>>
>>
>>
>You apparently don't realize (as usual) how out of touch you are with
>reality. Not that long ago we had a manufacturing base which provided
>good jobs for folks with a wide range of skills. Plus there were
>numerous other businesses that provided support for those manufacturing
>companies (machine shop, hydraulics, automation etc). A very large
>percentage of those companies are *gone*.
>
>I recently drove around in an industrial park that is about an hour from
>here that probably represented 6,000 jobs and there are practically no
>businesses in operation. The site of the former premier business in that
>park has been turned into a logistics center (fancy word for warehouse).
>This is not all unusual. Stop and look around sometime. This is just
>like your view of NYC that reflects what was a quarter century ago.
>Times have changed..

Obviously you don't work, you have no marketable skills, and your
bitch has tiny tits.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 2/21/2010 7:12 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> George wrote:
>>> It doesn't have to be that black and white. Capitalism is a good thing
>>> as long as the folks running enterprises have a moral compass. I think
>>> walmart is indefensible.
>>
>> Capitalism makes some good things happen. WalMart is another matter. I
>> will not shop there. I am less interested in saving a few dollars per
>> week than I am in living in a Wally world. Sure you save a few bucks on
>> their dumbed down products. Then you have to replace them, so you end up
>> spending more. You are better off to pay a little more for a quality
>> product that does not wear out as quickly.
>
> Would you care to give us some examples of these "dumbed down" products?
>
>
>
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate...is_be_tru.html

NussbaumOnDesignCan This Be True Of Wal-Mart?
Posted by: Bruce Nussbaum on February 04

I print this comment about cameras and digital products sold by Wal-mart
by a reader because it is so astounding. Please send in any of your own
experiences. And Wal-Mart execs, I hope you are taking notes and making
changes in the way you do business. The clock is ticking.

Here goes:

“>Here’s a cautionary tale for anyone thinking of making a purchace at
walmart or sams based on price comparison.

I wanted an inexpensive digital camera for my daughter. After finding
one with the basic features I wanted, I went to sears, target and
walmart to check prices. All 3 stores sold the a camera with the exact
same model number. Sears -$119 target -$109 walmart - $99 . I bought it
at the manufactures online store but when the camera was delivered it
DID NOT have all the features that the Sears and Target salesperson had
shown me (couldn’t get help at the Walmart store). I contacted the
factory store and asked them if perhaps the one I got was an older
version of this camera since the model number on the unit was the
correct. The customer service agent apologized and said I must have
gotten one of the “WALMART” cameras. These units were manufactured just
for them with the same model number but with reduced features. So while
the price was a little lower at walmart, the value was worse since it
was a stripped down version.

"Bogbrush" > wrote in message
> I buy my food in one. Because they forced the closure of all the local
> small shops and I dont drive.

How did they force the closure? I bet it was a blockade and armed guards
keeping the regular customers away. Did they have tanks or just barbed wire
around the entrance?

Damn DisAbel wrote:
>> Janet Wilder wrote:
>>
>>> ....but we, the consumer, bought it. Really, George, can you think of
>>> any product made now that has the quality of the same item made 10 years
>>> ago? Nothing is fixable. Everything is disposable.

There are many US made products that are of highest quality and that
are improved upon continuously. Farberware cookware is inexpensive bu
t of far better quality and utility than any megabucks All-Crap pot.

>> I have to wonder, though. After WWII, the Japanese were desperate to
>> sell stuff. Anything. They had no time for development or quality
>> control. "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "crap". Things are
>> different now. My son bought a kitchen knife recently. US$200. Made
>> in Japan.

The only thing that indicates is that your son is a more dollars than
functioning brain cells moron. Truth is there are no kitchen knives
on the planet that are worth more *utility-wise* than like $10...
yoose wanna attach a jewelry handle, etch the blade with meaningless
oriental characters, and add other decorative acouterments that in no
way improves the utility of the knife, that and more can be done...
can even package that knife in a box worth twice the $10 value of that
knife. I can sell your retarded son a garden shovel I bought at Lowes
for $10 but I stained the wooden handle to look like rare rain forest
hardwood, and treated the metal to look like brushed nickel... I'm
sure your DisAbel imbecile son will gladly pay me $200 for that $10
shovel. LOL-LOL

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:36:13 -0500, Goomba >
> wrote:
>
>> Why should they be forced to pay more than the mom & pop store down the
>> road pays their unskilled labor? These aren't high paying jobs no matter
>> where they are.... why do we blame Wallyworld for that?
>
> What I don't understand is how a supposed health care professional
> fails to grasp the importance of health insurance.
>
http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
>

It is not just Wal-Mart, but most other retailers, especially the M & P
stores that offer no benefits. My grandson is working for a car dealer and
gets minimum wage for the state (higher than the Federal) and had less
benefits than even WM offers. Better jobs are non-existent right now. When
business dropped, he was laid off from a retail store that was just as bad
with zero benefits. At least now he has Sunday off.

Take a look at this from the web site you noted:

Your local Wal-Mart costs your community up to $420,000 per year

These costs come in the form of many public assistance programs. A 2004
study found that one Wal-Mart store cost taxpayers $108,000/year for
children's health care and $42,000 per year for low-income housing
assistance. ["How Wal-Mart Has Used Public Money in Your State," Good Jobs
First 2007]


If those people did not work at WM, where would they be working and how much
would it cost the community? Perhaps even more if they don't have any jobs
at all. Perhaps something would be done if people stopped focusing on one
store and are oblivious to what else is going on around them.

Fact is, business have no incentive to pay higher wages because they have
plenty of people willing to work for what is now being offered. How many
people here are tipping wait staff over 15% just to be sure they make a
decent living? And some of these same people cheer on sports figures and
the $100 million contracts.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:26:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> sf > wrote:
>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Most small retail stores started to die in the 1960's. They were done in by
> >> the combination of the Interstate Highway system and the shopping mall.
> >> Every year, more people decided to not go downtown, but to go to the mall
> >> instead. Where I live, the stores were pretty much gone long before Wal
> >> Mart and cheap goods existed.
>
> >Downtowns are still shooting themselves in the foot, at least here.
> >They want shoppers but they don't want cars. They don't have enough
> >public parking lots; street parking almost non existent; traffic in
> >city center is restricted and parking meters only are not only
> >expensive - the hours are being pushed past 6PM to 10 or midnight in
> >some areas; public transportation is a nightmare for anyone off a main
> >line and taxis are not in abundance anywhere other than hotels and the
> >airport. It's no surprise shoppers prefer going to malls.
>
> This is the conventional, auto-centric point of view in which
> success is measured by shoppers arriving by private vehicle.

If they want to attract people from out of town, that's how they
arrive unless they can easily access public transportation and most
people don't have direct access.
>
> Myself, I am disappointed that Berkeley permitted underground
> parking lots below the new Trader Joes and the new Bowl.
> They should instead amplify their push towards getting private
> vehicles off the road, particularly by expanding Bus Rapid Transit
> and proceeding to declare major local arteries to be open only to
> professionally driven vehicles.
>
Your idea is fine if they only want to attract neighborhood people to
shop downtown, but if they want to attract the wider public for
destination shopping - they need to provide more off street public
parking, improve public transportation (provide on and off shuttles
for one thing) and increase taxi availability. Same goes for every
other city center.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Stu" > wrote in message
> That's not what I meant and you know it. If you were a Walmart
> employee and had anumber of others wanting to become unionized,
> Walmart would use whatever means to squash it. If you and your fellow
> employees did vote and succeeded in getting a union shop, Walmart
> would six months down the road close the store as not being viable.
> It's happened here and the store still sits empty.

I know plenty of businesses that have done the same exact thing. I cannot
recall a single business that has welcomed a union and did not attempt to
keep one out. I don't want people telling me how to run my business either.
Don't like it here? Leave. Others are waiting to take your place.


>
>>
>>While you say it does not sound like a good working environment, it has
>>been
>>that way for many decades. I worked in small stores when I was in school
>>and made a few bucks, but did not need or want the benefits. That has
>>changed in many households in recent years. Mom no longer stays home and
>>makes dinner for the family and helps the kid with their homework.
>
> That's you, try and get full time hours, not going to happen at
> Walmart.
>

Or at most any other retail store of supermarket. They've been operating
like that for half a century that I'm aware of. Some of the m & p stores
offer 40 hours, but no benefits.



>
> Me, I research the different brands, talk to the repair shops as to
> which brand is in more often. Then I make my decision to buy, I never
> buy just because of price, it's always quality and durability.

Good for you, but many people don't. Of they take all your time questioning
a product, made a decision to buy it, then go down the street to save 50¢ on
a $100 item. Too many people do that and don't care about service until it
is too late.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:31:05 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> sf > wrote:
>
> >I *love* downtown Petaluma!
>
> I have to agree. Of course there is no chance of there being
> more than minimal public transit there (unless the rail line
> is re-opened, and that is very unlikely). But they did
> a good job with what they had to work with. There is
> plenty of food traffic, placing it right up there with San Rafael,
> and a far sight better than Santa Rosa.
>
Sky was telling me how railroad right of ways have been converted to
bike paths in her area. Wouldn't that be nice? Interurban bike
trails, what a concept!

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"sf" > wrote
> We have been trained to be a throw away
> society. Even large appliances are throw away now as evidenced by the
> cost of a repair/replacement part that can equal half the cost of a
> brand new unit.

A thought provoking comment. You are correct that we throw away appliances
rather than repair them. We complain that Wal-Mart pays low wages, but we
also complain when a skilled technician comes to the house and charges $75
for the service call. The actual wages made by the service tech are
probably what is required to sustain life today and have a modest house and
car. He probably gets some benefits also.

We complain that it would cost $300 to repair a $400 refrigerator, but 30 or
40 years ago, that same repair would have been on a unit that costs the
equivalent of $1000. It would have been made in the USA with USA made
components too.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:00:48 -0700, "<RJ>" > wrote:
>
> It's interesting to read all the WalMart bashing.
>

Think about this: A worldwide chain that has *one* store the size of
three football fields and takes in $70,000,000 a year can afford to
offer it's *own* branded health care to employees and they could use
Kaiser Permante as a model.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:

> We have been trained to be a throw away society. Even large appliances are
> throw away now as evidenced by the cost of a repair/replacement part that
> can equal half the cost of a brand new unit.

I think the only "throw-away-society" member *here* is Peter. Remember his
bragging that he replaces all his furniture and appliances every few years,
whether they need replacing or not?

Bob

"J. Clarke" > wrote in

>
> After the war when they became aware that their goods were identified as
> low quality junk they formed an industry cooperative and government agency
> to turn that image around, and they did.
>
> The question is whether the Chinese will do the same thing.

They made junk because we bought junk. Then they wanted to make good stuff
and the Americans taught them how do to it. They listened, we didn't.
Statistical Process Control works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming