Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz exposed himself:

> toolmakers get paid the same $45/hr and work the same number of hours
> whether GM sells one million units or ten million units... but without
> that staff of toolmakers GM sells zero units... actually that's why the US
> auto industry is dying, and the ONLY reason, they don't have enough
> toolmakers. There aren't nearly enough toolmakers in the US, and
> toolmakers can't be trained in a day (a year or even five years) like they
> do burger flippers... in fact without toolmakers there'd be no burger
> flippers... there'd be no flippers, there'd be nothing to flip onto,
> there'd be no burgers because there'd be no ground meat... without
> Toolmakers there'd be nothing, zero, nada... society as we know it would
> cease to exist. People are misinformed about what's the oldest profession,
> the Toolmaker is the world's oldest profession... politicians are the
> whores. Since the dawn of time the Politician has been deathly afraid of
> the Toolmaker, the Toolmaker i sth eonly occupation that produces
something, politcos only produce talk

Still sticking with the fiction that you were a cook in the Navy, not a
"machinist"?

Bob

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:51:15 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:33:30 -0800, sf wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:36:13 -0500, Goomba >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why should they be forced to pay more than the mom & pop store down
>>>> the road pays their unskilled labor? These aren't high paying jobs
>>>> no matter where they are.... why do we blame Wallyworld for that?
>>>
>>> What I don't understand is how a supposed health care professional
>>> fails to grasp the importance of health insurance.
>>>
>>> http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
>>
>> pretty impressive/depressing set of facts they've collected there, sf.
>
> Given that the website is a product of the United Food and Commercial
> Workers Union, I can see there would be no bias or self-serving agenda
> whatsoever.

everything there had references; i don't think they were making shit up.

blake

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:26:01 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> "blake murphy" > wrote
>> i find that unpersuasive. the $42,000 cited above is for children's
>> health
>> care and ... low-income housing assistance. how about costs for
>> infrastructure, police and fire coverage, etc.? and should working people
>> be paid so little (or with such poor benefits) that they need assistance
>> with their children's health care and housing?
>
> This goes back to the chicken and egg theory. Which came first, low wages or
> low prices? We all want to make big wages, but we don't want to pay big
> prices. How many here are willing to buy a US made computer or TV made in
> the USA with a minimum labor rate of $18 an hour? Could you afford it?
>
> I used the example of Whole Foods. They pay better than most, but I've
> often heard complaints here about their high prices. How about all
> supermarkets follow that same wage-price plan? Would you mind the extra
> $50+ a week for groceries so your neighbor can get healthcare or take a
> vacation?

50+ dollars a week? i doubt the difference would be that great. i think i
might prefer to pay a little more to live in a more equitable society than
pay less and have more profits go to people who aren't really strapped for
money because they're foisting labor benefit costs onto the government.

and whole foods is a pretty poor analogy. do you think the quality there
and the quality at wal-mart are equal?

blake

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:56:37 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> > wrote
>> . We are all in the same union, so our wage system is the same.
>>
>
> Does the union provide real benefits to the member? Or does it just take
> your dues and make the union leaders fat cats?

<derisive snort>

blake

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:57:57 -0700, <RJ> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:39:32 -0500, brooklyn1
> > wrote:
>
>>. The power of labor unions is not to hijack
>>companys for exorbitant wages (no factory worker is getting rich),
>>they are primarily to ensure job security, or everyone would be at
>>risk of being summarilly terminated for no cause simply because the
>>bosses got a bug up their asses because they didn't get laid in
>>months. The most powerful unions are the AMA and ABA, how come no one
>>is bitching about their wages???
>>
>>
> Beg to differ....
> The most powerful unions are AFSME, and the Teachers unions.
>
> And both can squeeze their escalating benefits
> out of the taxpayer under penalty of law.
>
> The motto in government, ( and school boards )
> seems to be; . "Don't make waves"
> We can always get more from the taxpayer.

you gotta be shitting me. do you think teachers and government employees
are some kind of bloated plutocrats?

blake

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:57:38 -0800, Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz exposed himself:
>
>> toolmakers get paid the same $45/hr and work the same number of hours
>> whether GM sells one million units or ten million units... but without
>> that staff of toolmakers GM sells zero units... actually that's why the US
>> auto industry is dying, and the ONLY reason, they don't have enough
>> toolmakers. There aren't nearly enough toolmakers in the US, and
>> toolmakers can't be trained in a day (a year or even five years) like they
>> do burger flippers... in fact without toolmakers there'd be no burger
>> flippers... there'd be no flippers, there'd be nothing to flip onto,
>> there'd be no burgers because there'd be no ground meat... without
>> Toolmakers there'd be nothing, zero, nada... society as we know it would
>> cease to exist. People are misinformed about what's the oldest profession,
>> the Toolmaker is the world's oldest profession... politicians are the
>> whores. Since the dawn of time the Politician has been deathly afraid of
>> the Toolmaker, the Toolmaker i sth eonly occupation that produces
> something, politcos only produce talk
>
> Still sticking with the fiction that you were a cook in the Navy, not a
> "machinist"?
>
> Bob

<snort>

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:51:15 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:33:30 -0800, sf wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:36:13 -0500, Goomba >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why should they be forced to pay more than the mom & pop store
>>>>> down the road pays their unskilled labor? These aren't high
>>>>> paying jobs no matter where they are.... why do we blame
>>>>> Wallyworld for that?
>>>>
>>>> What I don't understand is how a supposed health care professional
>>>> fails to grasp the importance of health insurance.
>>>>
>>>> http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
>>>
>>> pretty impressive/depressing set of facts they've collected there,
>>> sf.
>>
>> Given that the website is a product of the United Food and Commercial
>> Workers Union, I can see there would be no bias or self-serving
>> agenda whatsoever.
>
> everything there had references; i don't think they were making shit
> up.

The bulk of the references circle back to studies or surveys or articles or
ad infinitum that came from their own ancillary organizations, or from other
anti-capitalist publications. These are the same guys who want to organize
Wal-marts into a closed union shop. They stand to DIRECTLY benefit from
this. But then, when the more than 450 UFCWU officers and staff make in
excess of $100,000 per year, one can understand why.

Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them, via phone
and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be self-serving and
dishonest, starting with the fact that the website in question, from which
much of the anti-walmart propoganda emanates, does not readily identify
itself as a UFCWU website.

--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

"Dave Bugg" wrote

> Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
> Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them, via
> phone and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be self-serving
> and dishonest, starting with the fact that the website in question, from
> which much of the anti-walmart propoganda emanates, does not readily
> identify itself as a UFCWU website.

Dave, Walmart when the old man was alive was a decent place. Wages were low
but reasonable for the venue and they had a high incidence of hiring older
workers (50+). They also had some stock benefits and other things you could
chose to opt for. In addition, they had a serious support of military.

All that changed when the old man died. The first thing *I* noticed is none
of the miliary in Sasebo Japan used them. I found out why. It was no longer
possible to mail order to an FPO address without calling their customer
service (which was not 24/7 and occured during our night time).
Furthermore, they removed the 1-800 access from overseas. To add insult to
injury, when paying 37cents a minute, they would not place overseas (almost
all of them active military) calls on priority so you could wait as long as
20 mins on hold. I also found at the same time, they are one of the ones
who now charge 'international shippage rates' for FPO addresses. (It costs
the same as stateside CONUS to mail to an FPO so this is never needed and
they knew it. They just banked the profits that it didnt cost them).

We along with everyone I knew, swapped to JC Penny and Amazon. Sure, they
cost a liitle more at JC Penny but have nice stuff and the difference in
shippage made them more affordable.

What ****ed us all off out there, was Walmart upped touting how much they
did to 'help the military' (believe they still tout that alot) but in fact,
they became a rip off of the military.

Scams are common. The shippage fee to FPO addresses charing 'international
rates' is one of the more common. 2 companies I know of, do really well for
the military and often dont get enough credit. Fair based shippage price
(CONUS USA) and seem to do their best to get products out a little faster.
JC Penny tops the list (sometimes stuff ordered arrived in 3 days when a
simple letter normally takes 3 weeks) and Amazon (normally 2 weeks or a bit
less). Amazon is particularily good at somehow figuring out how to fastest
deliver to a ship at sea which you will have to admit, is a difficult
mailing target!

The only reason we ever set foot in a Walmart, is it's the only thing in
walking range and my husband can no longer drive (medical issues). We'd
both be happier if that store was a Kmart or a Target etc. He gets a few
essentials there when my work hours make it hard to expand to shopping and
he just needs a bit of exercise. It's not the only thing in town, it's just
the only one in waking distance.

cshenk wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" wrote
>
>> Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
>> Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them, via
>> phone and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be
>> self-serving and dishonest, starting with the fact that the website
>> in question, from which much of the anti-walmart propoganda
>> emanates, does not readily identify itself as a UFCWU website.
>
> Dave, Walmart when the old man was alive was a decent place. Wages
> were low but reasonable for the venue and they had a high incidence
> of hiring older workers (50+). They also had some stock benefits and
> other things you could chose to opt for. In addition, they had a
> serious support of military.
> All that changed when the old man died. The first thing *I* noticed
> is none of the miliary in Sasebo Japan used them. .....snip

I don't mean this to be rude, but why are you telling me this? Is it to make
me a non-walmart shopper or to just vent? Walmart has made decision to
conduct business in a specific manner regarding military issues. The end
result will be that they will either remain profitable, or not, depending on
the consumer. Capitalism at work. I appreciate that you have feelings on
this subject, but I do not share those same feelings. With no intention of
being unkind, I also note that your feelings are conditional; you still go
to walmart.

Note: I grew up on military bases. I served in the military overseas. My 23
year-old son is a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army, currently at Ft. Benning
waiting for his Ranger training rotation to begin. If APO or FPO becomes an
issue, then I will look at various retailers and decide which one will
receive my dollars. Right now, Walmart's policies in that regard do not
enter into my decision, as a consumer, to do business with them.

--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

Dave Bugg wrote:
> cshenk wrote:
>> "Dave Bugg" wrote
>>
>>> Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
>>> Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them, via
>>> phone and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be
>>> self-serving and dishonest, starting with the fact that the website
>>> in question, from which much of the anti-walmart propoganda
>>> emanates, does not readily identify itself as a UFCWU website.
>> Dave, Walmart when the old man was alive was a decent place. Wages
>> were low but reasonable for the venue and they had a high incidence
>> of hiring older workers (50+). They also had some stock benefits and
>> other things you could chose to opt for. In addition, they had a
>> serious support of military.
>> All that changed when the old man died. The first thing *I* noticed
>> is none of the miliary in Sasebo Japan used them. .....snip
>
> I don't mean this to be rude, but why are you telling me this? Is it to make
> me a non-walmart shopper or to just vent? Walmart has made decision to
> conduct business in a specific manner regarding military issues. The end
> result will be that they will either remain profitable, or not, depending on
> the consumer. Capitalism at work.


And that is the crux of the matter. If enough people do not like the
way Walmart does business that they stop shopping there, Walmart will
have to change or go broke.

If people do not like their employment practices, they will stop working
there. That will force Walmart to change the way they compensate their
people... or go out of business.

If communities do not like that Walmart is given tax incentives and
other perks to build a store in their area, they should put heat on the
local politicians to stop offering these perks... and Walmart will go
elsewhere.

If Walmart breaks any laws, their feet should be held to the fire and
they should be prosecuted.

BUT - if Walmart is operating legally, within the law..... what needs to
be done? You can vote with your wallet and take your business
elsewhere. But don't throw stones at people who don't share your view.

Years ago, most small rural towns had at least two harness makers, a
wheel-wright, a wagon builder and a feed mill or two. Times change,
business evolves. Cars replaced wagons, tractors replace horses and
those small business went out of business. One day someone opened up a
General Store and the fabric shop, candy store and drug store went out
of business. Later on, super markets came along and butchers, fish
mongers, vegetable stands and milk delivery people went out of business.
Now we have mega-markets. It is all part of the evolution of business
and society and in every stop, someone stood up and wailed that progress
was the end of civilization as we know it and things were better back in
the good old days.

Nothing ever stays the same. Not all change is good but over time, bad
ideas fall by the wayside, replaced by better ideas.

George L

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
> and whole foods is a pretty poor analogy. do you think the quality there
> and the quality at wal-mart are equal?
>
> blake


Yes, in some cases.

Breyers ice cream is the same quality at both places.

WM $3.40
WF $6.49
S&S $5.49

I don't see that as a poor analogy.

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:51:15 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>
> > blake murphy wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:33:30 -0800, sf wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:36:13 -0500, Goomba >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Why should they be forced to pay more than the mom & pop store down
> >>>> the road pays their unskilled labor? These aren't high paying jobs
> >>>> no matter where they are.... why do we blame Wallyworld for that?
> >>>
> >>> What I don't understand is how a supposed health care professional
> >>> fails to grasp the importance of health insurance.
> >>>
> >>> http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
> >>
> >> pretty impressive/depressing set of facts they've collected there, sf.
> >
> > Given that the website is a product of the United Food and Commercial
> > Workers Union, I can see there would be no bias or self-serving agenda
> > whatsoever.
>
> everything there had references; i don't think they were making shit up.
>
> blake

That is why so many people boycott Wal-mart. I rarely ever shop there
any more. Maybe 2 or 3 times per year and that's when I just don't have
time to head to Austin. We have a Target here now too and that helps.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

On Feb 23, 2:56*am, "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:
> > wrote
>
> > . We are all in the same union, so our wage system is the same.
>
> Does the union provide real benefits to the member? *Or does it just take
> your dues and make the union leaders fat cats?

Both.

We do get pretty good benefits. I get full health insurance for $7 a
week with part-time hours. Decent vacation pay, pension, etc. Not bad,
especially considering it is a grocery store.

But at the same time, the union dues are not used for us. 2 contracts
ago, we got a really bad contract. The union set up our voting for
only 3 hours in one location. In past years, we had multiple locations
and all day. They told us it was a good plan (after months of saying
it was bad). People ran in, read the recommendation, voted, and read
the contract later. Those of who stayed for the meeting and asked
questions were not happy with it. THey said it was not a two-tier
system, and it is. A couple years later, the union merged with another
union, and they campaigned to get rid of the two-tier system that we
got in the last contract.

I suspect the next contract will get worse since the economy is down.
But there hasn't been any talk this year and our contract is due May
1st. I think they used all the dues to support political agendas, and
there isn't anything left to pay us if we go on strike. So we don't
have any leverage this time.

I've seen them ignore grievances that were obvious problems. And they
cater to the checkers. I work in the deli department, and I have been
using a register for 20 years, but I wouldn't be able to count a
single hour toward checker if I got "promoted". I would have a pay
freeze for approx 2 years as I would have my current wage, but start
over in hours. They also ignore the fact that everybody who works
after 9pm gets a 50 cent premium for the hours, except deli clerks (we
get 20 cents). It's no biggie to them, but would have been over $3,000
for me over the years.

They do give good benefits and job security (I have seniority, so good
hours, and they would have to have a really good case to fire me). But
I don't trust the union to actually care about us. We went on a strike
my very first year, when I was 16, and I didn't see any of them take
any pay cuts).

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:54:34 -0500, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:57:57 -0700, <RJ> wrote:

>>>
>>>
>> Beg to differ....
>> The most powerful unions are AFSME, and the Teachers unions.
>>
>> And both can squeeze their escalating benefits
>> out of the taxpayer under penalty of law.
>>
>> The motto in government, ( and school boards )
>> seems to be; . "Don't make waves"
>> We can always get more from the taxpayer.
>
>you gotta be shitting me. do you think teachers and government employees
>are some kind of bloated plutocrats?
>
>blake

ABSOLUTELY !!
Even without the Feds, State, local, sales, and school taxes
are becoming the biggest part of the wage earners costs.

No one asks; "Did you lose your job, or have a bad year"
The money is due !! ( or we'll take your house )

So many states, cities, and school districts are in the red.
I'd bet that much of it goes for the "3P's" of government;
Pay, Perks, and Pension.......

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0700, <RJ> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:54:34 -0500, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:57:57 -0700, <RJ> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Beg to differ....
>>> The most powerful unions are AFSME, and the Teachers unions.
>>>
>>> And both can squeeze their escalating benefits
>>> out of the taxpayer under penalty of law.
>>>
>>> The motto in government, ( and school boards )
>>> seems to be; . "Don't make waves"
>>> We can always get more from the taxpayer.
>>
>>you gotta be shitting me. do you think teachers and government employees
>>are some kind of bloated plutocrats?
>>
>>blake
>
> ABSOLUTELY !!

do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?

blake

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:11:56 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:51:15 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>>> blake murphy wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:33:30 -0800, sf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:36:13 -0500, Goomba >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why should they be forced to pay more than the mom & pop store
>>>>>> down the road pays their unskilled labor? These aren't high
>>>>>> paying jobs no matter where they are.... why do we blame
>>>>>> Wallyworld for that?
>>>>>
>>>>> What I don't understand is how a supposed health care professional
>>>>> fails to grasp the importance of health insurance.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
>>>>
>>>> pretty impressive/depressing set of facts they've collected there,
>>>> sf.
>>>
>>> Given that the website is a product of the United Food and Commercial
>>> Workers Union, I can see there would be no bias or self-serving
>>> agenda whatsoever.
>>
>> everything there had references; i don't think they were making shit
>> up.
>
> The bulk of the references circle back to studies or surveys or articles or
> ad infinitum that came from their own ancillary organizations, or from other
> anti-capitalist publications.

and i'm sure if you looked at those, you'd find those studies had
references, too. about wal-mart, they don't have to make shit up. the
truth is out there, as they say.

>These are the same guys who want to organize
> Wal-marts into a closed union shop. They stand to DIRECTLY benefit from
> this. But then, when the more than 450 UFCWU officers and staff make in
> excess of $100,000 per year, one can understand why.

ooh-wee! 100,000 bucks a year! that's chump change to the owners
squeezing nickels out of the employees.

>
> Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
> Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them, via phone
> and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be self-serving and
> dishonest, starting with the fact that the website in question, from which
> much of the anti-walmart propoganda emanates, does not readily identify
> itself as a UFCWU website.

that, i'll grant you. but the information was available at the site, which
is not always true of walt-street types when they back an organization.

blake

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0700, "<RJ>" > wrote:

> "3P's" of government; Pay, Perks, and Pension.......

Those are the 3P's of any job. Not the teacher's fault that you gave
up a pension to get a larger paycheck in the present.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

blake murphy wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:11:56 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>> The bulk of the references circle back to studies or surveys or
>> articles or ad infinitum that came from their own ancillary
>> organizations, or from other anti-capitalist publications.
>
> and i'm sure if you looked at those, you'd find those studies had
> references, too. about wal-mart, they don't have to make shit up.
> the truth is out there, as they say.

The studies were funded in-house. Sort of like Shell funding a study about
pollution or man-made global warming. The UFCWU is a SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP.
As to making crap up: yes, it is in their self-interest to make crap up; to
fold, spindle and mutilate the information gathered; to mung the information
by cherry picking what suits them.

Hell, blake, tell me that you believe that the Heritage Foundation and the
NRA, or any conservative political organization provides reliable
information and studies about issues or organizations.

>> These are the same guys who want to organize
>> Wal-marts into a closed union shop. They stand to DIRECTLY benefit
>> from this. But then, when the more than 450 UFCWU officers and staff
>> make in excess of $100,000 per year, one can understand why.

> ooh-wee! 100,000 bucks a year! that's chump change to the owners
> squeezing nickels out of the employees.

When the average employee in that union, paying dues out of their paychecks,
was making less than $35,000 per year, that is hardly 'chump change'. It
indicates a clear advantage that is being taken of the union lower classes.

>> Let me be clear: I am not defending Walmart, nor do I like going into
>> Walmarts in general (I do get many of my prescriptions from them,
>> via phone and mail now.). I do find much of the criticism to be
>> self-serving and dishonest, starting with the fact that the website
>> in question, from which much of the anti-walmart propoganda
>> emanates, does not readily identify itself as a UFCWU website.
>
> that, i'll grant you. but the information was available at the site,
> which is not always true of walt-street types when they back an
> organization.

I had to search hard for the tiny, little print at the very bottom of the
web-page, listed as part of the site menu. I was purposefully looking for
anything labeling the site as having any indication of UFCWU authorship. I
would bet that most folks looking at that website would have no clue that
this is UFCWU sponsored and the adversarial relationship between the UFCWU
and Walmart, and the UFCWU directly benefits from prevailing in its plans.

--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

blake wrote:

> do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?

Well, we know sf, and she travels the world at leisure. :-)

Bob

brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> Purina makes no changes in Fancy Feast for any retailer, because
> what's in the can is the least expensive part of the production
> operation and any changes would increase costs, *never* reduce costs.
>
> Pet food manufacturers produce various products under different
> labels, if they want to produce a less costly pet food they repackage.

We sure learned about that with the tainted dog and cat food scandal a
few years ago. I was surprised to see all the different name brands of
pet food that we coming out of the same plants.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:24:40 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> blake wrote:
>
> > do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?
>
> Well, we know sf, and she travels the world at leisure. :-)
>
Heh! That started *after* I retired and my teacher retirement check
doesn't pay for it. No way, no how.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:32:15 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> We sure learned about that with the tainted dog and cat food scandal a
> few years ago. I was surprised to see all the different name brands of
> pet food that we coming out of the same plants.

Wasn't that last year? No more than two years ago, surely! It seems
like yesterday.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

ChattyCathy > wrote in news:JyPhn.33456$e
%2.5766
@newsfe08.iad:

> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> frankly, i don't know why sqwertz expects you to keep up rigid
>> standards to
>> qualify tinfoil hat winners. what next, urine tests?
>
> <snork>
>



It wouldn't be a hard task for me....... all they'd have to do is
swab
the PJ's I live in.

--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia

Join us Google Groups posters.........

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sf wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:21:55 -0500, "Nancy Young"
> > wrote:

>> It's a fine salary. One lots of people would love to make.
>>
> That appears to be the per-capita income in CT. Higher incomes
> usually go hand in hand with a higher cost of living. I don't know
> what teachers make there, but they certainly are not getting rich.

The salaries are similar here. And most people don't get rich
from their job.

nancy

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:30:22 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> wrote:

> One of the teachers in our high school is also on the town finance
> committee. He wanted to raise the real estate taxes about $500 per average
> house. If the budget passed, his salary would be going up far more than
> that. Do you think he had some bias?

Well, your voters decided his salary would be linked to that. Change
it.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 2/25/2010 11:12 AM, blake murphy wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0700,<RJ> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:54:34 -0500, blake murphy
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:57:57 -0700,<RJ> wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Beg to differ....
>>>> The most powerful unions are AFSME, and the Teachers unions.
>>>>
>>>> And both can squeeze their escalating benefits
>>>> out of the taxpayer under penalty of law.
>>>>
>>>> The motto in government, ( and school boards )
>>>> seems to be; . "Don't make waves"
>>>> We can always get more from the taxpayer.
>>>
>>> you gotta be shitting me. do you think teachers and government employees
>>> are some kind of bloated plutocrats?
>>>
>>> blake
>>
>> ABSOLUTELY !!
>
> do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?
>
> blake

So how much should they make? 2x a private sector job with comparable
education? Or maybe 3x?

At least in my state teachers are paid similar to the private sector and
have much better benefits and perks.

Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
service, almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
do something stupid, a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
day. And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).

Nancy Young wrote:

> The salaries are similar here. And most people don't get rich from
> their job.
>
> nancy

But from what I keep hearing they seem to do a hellafa lot better on
their NJ pensions...
Is this accurate?

Goomba wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote:
>
>> The salaries are similar here. And most people don't get rich from
>> their job.

> But from what I keep hearing they seem to do a hellafa lot better on
> their NJ pensions...
> Is this accurate?

Some towns inexplicably promised enormous payouts to retiring
administrators without realizing it would bankrupt them when the
day came. That's the only pension news I've read about. I'm not
sure how the teacher pensions stack up.

nancy

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:45 -0500, George >
wrote:

> Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
> pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
> retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
> service, almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
> do something stupid, a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
> asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
> day. And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
> everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
> that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
> for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).

Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the clock
during that so called vacation. I can only say that the private
sector gladly threw away their gold watches and retirements in favor
of fatter monthly paychecks and private contracting decades ago, so
don't go there.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:32:15 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> We sure learned about that with the tainted dog and cat food scandal a
>> few years ago. I was surprised to see all the different name brands of
>> pet food that we coming out of the same plants.
>
> Wasn't that last year? No more than two years ago, surely! It seems
> like yesterday.
>

Yes, it does seem like yesterday, but the older I get the more things
seem to have happened yesterday, even though it is often many years ago.

I Googled it and it seems it was April 2007.


I had to stifle myself last summer when I ran into an old co-worker and
his wife at a function in town. Those two were litigation prone and
always seemed to be suing someone for something. She was in a department
store and somehow a broom fell on her head. I don't think that she
suffered anything more serious than a small bruise, but they ended up
with a swimming pool from that settlement.

She told me that they lost their two King Charles Spaniels to the bad
dog food. Of course I was sympathetic, but I could not help but wonder
how much they settled for.

"sf" > wrote
> Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
> 6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the clock
> during that so called vacation.

Jan. W spends her free time at the lake cottage.
Tammy R spends winter vacation down south, spring break in New Hampshire,
summer in the camper.
Tony F devotes most of his spare time to a part time business that he has.

Times have changed. Yes, a few are devoted and spend extra time, but not
all of them do. Not to says the three I mentioned won't ever talk to a
parent after hours, but come vacation time, they are out of town.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:57:24 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> wrote:

> Jan. W spends her free time at the lake cottage.
> Tammy R spends winter vacation down south, spring break in New Hampshire,
> summer in the camper.
> Tony F devotes most of his spare time to a part time business that he has.

I don't know who Jan and Tony are, but Tammy works at the college
level and as far as I know is not teaching, she's in the office. So,
every school employee is a teacher as far as you're concerned?

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "sf" > wrote
>> Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
>> 6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the
>> clock during that so called vacation.
>
> Jan. W spends her free time at the lake cottage.
> Tammy R spends winter vacation down south, spring break in New
> Hampshire, summer in the camper.
> Tony F devotes most of his spare time to a part time business that he
> has.
>
> Times have changed. Yes, a few are devoted and spend extra time, but
> not all of them do. Not to says the three I mentioned won't ever
> talk to a parent after hours, but come vacation time, they are out of
> town.

Most people do have to work year 'round for those salaries, and kick
in for benefits, too. But the mindset hasn't changed that teachers
are paid less than their corporate employed neighbors, no matter
how that's not true in a lot of places now. I feel for the teachers in
poor areas who actually are paid a pittance, but then, so are their
neighbors.

nancy

"sf" > wrote
> I don't know who Jan and Tony are, but Tammy works at the college
> level and as far as I know is not teaching, she's in the office. So,
> every school employee is a teacher as far as you're concerned?

Or course not, but we were talking teachers. As for administrative staff,
our system seems to have far more than really needed.

In article >,
George > wrote:

> On 2/25/2010 11:12 AM, blake murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0700,<RJ> wrote:

> > do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?

> So how much should they make? 2x a private sector job with comparable
> education? Or maybe 3x?
>
> At least in my state teachers are paid similar to the private sector and
> have much better benefits and perks.
>
> Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
> pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
> retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
> service,

Sounds like teachers where you live have got it made. Where I live, the
retirement system for teachers offers no benefits. My local district
offers health insurance, with copays. It is capped at US$400 per month.
That will pay for a single person, but anybody with a family is paying
big money for health insurance. The district offers a little help with
health insurance after retirement, but only for a short time. After
that, retired teachers are on their own.

> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
> do something stupid,

California implemented class size reduction some years back. With the
budget cuts, this just can't continue, and class sizes are going to
creep back up. Massive teacher layoffs are predicted. Since this
affects the whole state, it's not a matter of moving to the adjoining
district and commuting a little longer. There just won't be many jobs.
Of course, these won't be teachers who did something really stupid. The
union contract calls for layoffs strictly by seniority, and you can bet
it will be done that way.

> a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
> asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
> day.

Around here, teachers are on salary. They don't get paid to attend
school events.

> And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
> everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
> that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
> for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).

I expect to see strikes here.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

In article >,
"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:


> One of the teachers in our high school is also on the town finance
> committee. He wanted to raise the real estate taxes about $500 per average
> house. If the budget passed, his salary would be going up far more than
> that. Do you think he had some bias?

Interesting. So, the school district is part of the town government?
Here in California, it is far different. Each school district is an
independent government entity. The boundaries seldom match those of
other government agencies, in my experience. My county has 40
independent school districts. My city, with a population of 50,000 has
9 school districts! Some of those districts may be contained within the
city, but most go far out into the country.

School districts can pass bond measures that increase property taxes, as
can cities, but I believe they are completely separate.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On 2/27/2010 12:50 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> In article<v46dnfmnZMR2MBXWnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@giganews. com>,
> "Ed > wrote:
>
>
>> One of the teachers in our high school is also on the town finance
>> committee. He wanted to raise the real estate taxes about $500 per average
>> house. If the budget passed, his salary would be going up far more than
>> that. Do you think he had some bias?
>
> Interesting. So, the school district is part of the town government?
> Here in California, it is far different. Each school district is an
> independent government entity. The boundaries seldom match those of
> other government agencies, in my experience. My county has 40
> independent school districts. My city, with a population of 50,000 has
> 9 school districts! Some of those districts may be contained within the
> city, but most go far out into the country.
>
> School districts can pass bond measures that increase property taxes, as
> can cities, but I believe they are completely separate.
>

PA is also the same with the notable difference that the school boards
have direct taxing capability in the form of property tax. They just
keep on cranking up the rate. A typical modest home around here is ~
$190,000 and the school tax for that value is ~ $4,900.00 . The school
district also gets a 1/2% income tax and a 1/2% property transfer tax.

On 2/27/2010 10:35 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:45 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
>> pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
>> retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
>> service, almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
>> do something stupid, a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
>> asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
>> day. And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
>> everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
>> that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
>> for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).
>
> Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
> 6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the clock
> during that so called vacation. I can only say that the private
> sector gladly threw away their gold watches and retirements in favor
> of fatter monthly paychecks and private contracting decades ago, so
> don't go there.
>

Thats how it works here. I have relatives and friends who are teachers
and what I described is typical. I am not picking on teachers. I just
get tired of the constant "teachers deserve much more..." Its a job with
pluses and minuses like other jobs..

And they do get a 15 week paid vacation around here. They are
responsible to no one during that time.

On 2/27/2010 12:39 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> In >,
> > wrote:
>
>> On 2/25/2010 11:12 AM, blake murphy wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0700,<RJ> wrote:
>
>>> do you *know* any teachers? are they really living high off the hog?
>
>> So how much should they make? 2x a private sector job with comparable
>> education? Or maybe 3x?
>>
>> At least in my state teachers are paid similar to the private sector and
>> have much better benefits and perks.
>>
>> Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
>> pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
>> retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
>> service,
>
> Sounds like teachers where you live have got it made. Where I live, the
> retirement system for teachers offers no benefits. My local district
> offers health insurance, with copays. It is capped at US$400 per month.
> That will pay for a single person, but anybody with a family is paying
> big money for health insurance. The district offers a little help with
> health insurance after retirement, but only for a short time. After
> that, retired teachers are on their own.

And it is expensive. We pay heavy duty property taxes. The PSEA is the
biggest labor union in PA and knows how to muscle what they want. One of
the local districts tried to implement a $5 prescription copay and was
met with two weeks of last minute strikes. From what I understand the
teachers who agreed to unionize only for collective bargaining and never
to strike just have to give notice that they may or may not strike the
next morning. It is quite disruptive and powerful.

>
>> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
>> do something stupid,
>
> California implemented class size reduction some years back. With the
> budget cuts, this just can't continue, and class sizes are going to
> creep back up. Massive teacher layoffs are predicted. Since this
> affects the whole state, it's not a matter of moving to the adjoining
> district and commuting a little longer. There just won't be many jobs.
> Of course, these won't be teachers who did something really stupid. The
> union contract calls for layoffs strictly by seniority, and you can bet
> it will be done that way.
>
>> a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
>> asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
>> day.
>
> Around here, teachers are on salary. They don't get paid to attend
> school events.

The union contract requires that there be a minimum of two teachers at
any event and they must get at least $150/each. That includes fund
raisers, sports etc.


>
>> And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
>> everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
>> that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
>> for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).
>
> I expect to see strikes here.
>

On Feb 27, 7:35*am, sf > wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:45 -0500, George >
> wrote:
>
> > Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
> > pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
> > retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
> > service, almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
> > do something stupid, a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
> > asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
> > day. And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
> > everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
> > that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
> > for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).
>
> Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
> 6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the clock
> during that so called vacation. *I can only say that the private
> sector gladly threw away their gold watches and retirements in favor
> of fatter monthly paychecks and private contracting decades ago, so
> don't go there. *

I don't know any teachers that have a "normal 6.5 hour school day."
Every teacher I know (including those that are burned out and counting
minutes to retirement) are there earlier than the start of school and
stay much later than the last student. Many volunteer their free time
during school- or district-related events, and every one of them
attempt to work the coveted, but severely limited, summer school jobs,
some are able to tutor after-hours but many hold open their classrooms
for "study periods." Then you need to count in the hours needed to
assess and compile the information on each student for federal and
state agencies, which are usually separate tests because you can't
have tests and numbers used by more than one. Between assessments, you
have minimal state and federal standards that much be met and for
those teachers that cut corners so No Student is Left Behind, there
are whole groups of parents that cry foul because you're cheating
their Einstein of his/her gahd-given right to a better education
(even when you show that their child isn't grasping readin'-writin'-
and-rithmatic.)

Oh, and let's not cover special needs students; IEPs, ISS/ISP/ISTs,
observing, reporting, pushing for necessary services, etc. I don't
know about Barbara's experiences but mine are that meetings are the
least heavy in time but often the most draining. It's the build-up and
support prior that's a real killer of that normal 6.5 hour school day.

BTW George: Did you _ever_ volunteered during your child(ren)'s school
life? Or were you the weekend volunteer that put in a couple hours at
a game and considered yourself a participant in the system? There's
nothing like volunteering in the current system to see just how badly
things are broken to understand why you're not seeing what's really
broken.

The Ranger