On Mar 6, 2:00*pm, (Charlotte L. Blackmer) wrote:
> In article >,
> Chemo the Clown > wrote:
>
> >Agree. And, just where is the sacrifice? Lent, Easter, fasting...it's
> >just a tradition that does not really have any sacrifice. Who suffers?
>
> Are you serious? *No sacrifice? *No suffering? *
>
> >If you're going to be religous then practice the entire religion the
> >entire year.
>
> Lenten observances (which can include some kind of fasting) *ARE* part of
> practicing "the entire religion" in the cycle of the church year.
>
> ObFood: *finishing up the lasagna with homemade ricotta today, even though
> I really want a hamburger. *Maybe I'll have a burger tomorrow. *
>
> Charlotte
>
> --

Ok I'll give you that it's all part of the practice but how can you
really say you suffer or sacrifice? Not eating meat or not worrying
about something for specific period of time doesn't constitute any
suffering.

In article >,
Chemo the Clown > wrote:
>On Mar 6, 2:00*pm, (Charlotte L. Blackmer) wrote:
>> In article
>,
>> Chemo the Clown > wrote:
>>
>> >Agree. And, just where is the sacrifice? Lent, Easter, fasting...it's
>> >just a tradition that does not really have any sacrifice. Who suffers?
>>
>> Are you serious? *No sacrifice? *No suffering? *
>>
>> >If you're going to be religous then practice the entire religion the
>> >entire year.
>>
>> Lenten observances (which can include some kind of fasting) *ARE* part of
>> practicing "the entire religion" in the cycle of the church year.
>>
>> ObFood: *finishing up the lasagna with homemade ricotta today, even though
>> I really want a hamburger. *Maybe I'll have a burger tomorrow. *


>Ok I'll give you that it's all part of the practice but how can you
>really say you suffer or sacrifice? Not eating meat or not worrying
>about something for specific period of time doesn't constitute any
>suffering.

I actually have a serious answer but I'd like you to explain first exactly
how you are qualified to judge that nobody suffers or sacrifices by
practicing Lenten disciplines.

Charlotte


--

Dave Smith wrote:
> Becca wrote:
>> ImStillMags wrote:
>>> I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
>>> understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.
>>>
>>
>> When I was a teenager I dated a foreign exchange student from
>> Morocco. A group of us went out to lunch, but he could not eat
>> because he was fasting. I wondered what kind of God would make his
>> people go hungry or have dietary restrictions.
>
> It's not a god who makes people fast. It is the people who make up
> religions and enforce the man made rules.

As an adult, I can understand that. When I was 16 yo, I thought it was
just terrible. lol


Becca

On Mar 6, 3:03*pm, Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
> *ImStillMags > wrote:
> > I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
> > understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.
>
> Think you a heathen? *Hardly. *
>
> Others' beliefs or nonbeliefs are of no consequence nor concern to me. *
> I imagine people have their reasons for what they do or do not believe. *
> The only thing I bristle at are barbed pokes at the faith beliefs of
> others. *If people derive comfort from their spiritual beliefs and
> practices, and it's no skin off the nose, why rain on it?
> --
> -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJhttp://web.me.com/barbschaller
> Bean soup with sausage and kale, 3-1-2010

I agree. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't
important to someone else.

Charlotte wrote:

> ObFood: some of the EO people I know regard vegetable (non-olive) oil as
> fudging somewhat during Great Lent (it's olive oil that gets the nod in
> most lists I've seen), but those rules are quite restrictive IMO and I am
> just kind of boggled.

It certainly presents a challenge for people who want to feed tasty food to
their families. At least they're allowed to use herbs and spices, so it
would be possible to concoct a meal like red beans, rice, and gumbo
z'herbes. I've never found out whether eggs are allowable under those rules,
but if they are, that would open new vistas of culinary opportunity for
fasters.

Bob

"Charlotte L. Blackmer" > wrote
> A new outfit for Easter is hardly an invention of the modern "decadent"
> marketing age! Back in the Middle Ages, lords traditionally gave all
> their servants and retainers new clothes twice a year ... for
> Christmas/New Year's/Epiphany (NY and Epiphany being the gift-giving
> occasions) and Easter.

> For me, planning Easter clothes and Easter food is part of the fun of
> Easter.

Easter is a time of re-birth, the Resurrection. A new life. New clothing
is a part of that new beginning. Sprig is also a time of new beginnings.



> Items for Easter celebrations - candy, food, clothing, decorations - have
> been "marketed" in a secular manner ever since I can remember. Those who
> observe Lent in the traditional ways of prayer, fasting, study, service,
> and alms-giving will certainly notice a tension between the ways of the
> Church and the ways of the world, but again, this is nothing new and is
> not even the first time during this church year something like this has
> happened.

All of those secular marking ploys are rooted in a tradition of meaning even
if the meaning has been lost. I don't blame the markets as much as the
people buying into it. I do like those coconut eggs though.

In article >, Becca >
wrote:

> ImStillMags wrote:
> > I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
> > understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.
> >
>
> When I was a teenager I dated a foreign exchange student from Morocco. A
> group of us went out to lunch, but he could not eat because he was
> fasting. I wondered what kind of God would make his people go hungry or
> have dietary restrictions.
>
>
> Becca

<laughs> Best way I've heard it put in years! Good thought Becca.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> On 2010-03-06, Bob Terwilliger > wrote:
>
> Isn't "fasting foods" an oxymoron?
>
> nb

<lol>!
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

In article >,
(Charlotte L. Blackmer) wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Chemo the Clown > wrote:
>
> >Agree. And, just where is the sacrifice? Lent, Easter, fasting...it's
> >just a tradition that does not really have any sacrifice. Who suffers?
>
> Are you serious? No sacrifice? No suffering?
>
> >If you're going to be religous then practice the entire religion the
> >entire year.
>
> Lenten observances (which can include some kind of fasting) *ARE* part of
> practicing "the entire religion" in the cycle of the church year.
>
> ObFood: finishing up the lasagna with homemade ricotta today, even though
> I really want a hamburger. Maybe I'll have a burger tomorrow.
>
> Charlotte
>
> --

Isn't it funny how we crave what we cannot eat? <g> I've been low
carbing for so long, meat is the _last_ thing I crave most of the time
now...

I crave a darned grilled cheese sandwich, but bread makes me really sick
any more. :-( So does pasta and any other wheat flour item.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

On Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:39:17 +0000 (UTC), Charlotte L. Blackmer wrote:

> In article >,
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>>Hasn't the whole thing been twisted around and been turned into a
>>celebration?
>
> Lent? Hardly.
>
>>Some people make a big deal of Mardi Gras. Instead of using
>>up all the fat and sweet stuff to get rid of it so we can sacrifice for
>>40 days, it has been turned into a decandent party.
>
> It doesn't have to be a decadent one... but a party is good!
>
>>Then people go out
>>shopping so they will have a nice new outfit for Easter.
>
> A new outfit for Easter is hardly an invention of the modern "decadent"
> marketing age! Back in the Middle Ages, lords traditionally gave all
> their servants and retainers new clothes twice a year ... for
> Christmas/New Year's/Epiphany (NY and Epiphany being the gift-giving
> occasions) and Easter.
>
> This was before industrial spinning and cloth production, much less
> Wal-Mart and cheap offshore imports. New clothes were a huge deal, even
> to the rich.
>
> For me, planning Easter clothes and Easter food is part of the fun of
> Easter.
>
>>It is no longer
>>about Christ dying for our sins, whatever the heck is supposed to mean
>>anyway. It has become another marketing ploy.
>
> Items for Easter celebrations - candy, food, clothing, decorations - have
> been "marketed" in a secular manner ever since I can remember. Those who
> observe Lent in the traditional ways of prayer, fasting, study, service,
> and alms-giving will certainly notice a tension between the ways of the
> Church and the ways of the world, but again, this is nothing new and is
> not even the first time during this church year something like this has
> happened. We had Advent competing with Giftmas, the post-Giftmas letdown
> competing with the Twelve Days and the Epiphany, and now this. If
> some grocer trying to make an honest living tries to bring customers in
> by advertising "Friday fish" specials, I say, more power to him.
>
> What happened with you, Dave? Did someone pee in your oatmeal?
>
> Charlotte

did jesus get new clothes? no! did jesus have fun? i think not!

(although he did sort of tell his old man off for the first and only time i
know of.)

your pal,
blake

On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:10:35 -0600, Becca wrote:

> ImStillMags wrote:
>> I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
>> understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.
>>
>
> When I was a teenager I dated a foreign exchange student from Morocco. A
> group of us went out to lunch, but he could not eat because he was
> fasting. I wondered what kind of God would make his people go hungry or
> have dietary restrictions.
>
> Becca

the old-fashioned kind.

your pal,
blake

On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:03:20 -0600, Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> In article
> >,
> ImStillMags > wrote:
>
>> I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
>> understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.
>
> Think you a heathen? Hardly.
>
> Others' beliefs or nonbeliefs are of no consequence nor concern to me.
> I imagine people have their reasons for what they do or do not believe.
> The only thing I bristle at are barbed pokes at the faith beliefs of
> others. If people derive comfort from their spiritual beliefs and
> practices, and it's no skin off the nose, why rain on it?

theologically, i wouldn't think of it as imposed suffering, but a reminder
of the covenant (though christians likely wouldn't use that term) between
you and god.

of course, the practical result is a kind of tribal marker, a means of
distinguishing The People from those not of The People, but i'm not sure
you can blame god for that.

your pal,
blake

blake murphy > wrote in
:

>> When I was a teenager I dated a foreign exchange student from
>> Morocco. A group of us went out to lunch, but he could not eat
>> because he was fasting. I wondered what kind of God would make his
>> people go hungry or have dietary restrictions.
>>
>> Becca
>
> the old-fashioned kind.

Mark Twain, in an essay written in five parts between 19 June and 25 June
1906, published posthumously and which I read in French under the title
Dieu est-il immoral?, asks the question: If a father behaved towards his
children as God has behaved towards mankind, would he not be charged with
crimes, or at the very least severe negligence, and condemned to
incarceration for those acts?

And the answer is yes, he would be charged with a crime and condemned to
prison.

If there is a god, I suspect he doesn't actually give a rat's ass about
us. Why would a supreme being, if there were such a thing (and I'm not
saying there is), waste a single instant worrying about our actions?
Every human representation of a god implies that they are suffering from
a serious case of low self-esteem because we must adore them. Why must
we adore them? Because they say so? Isn't that was needy people do.
demand adoration?

Why waste precious hours, that could be better spent berating
conservatives into the ground, meeting the requirements of a needy deity?
We need to grow up as a planetary occupant and realize that there's no
point in wishing for interference which ain't going to come, no matter
how well one fasts, prays, adores or, for that matter, behaves badly...

Society is our mother, our father, and therein, if anywhere, should lie
our allegiance, not in deities, not in flags or imaginary borders.

Eat that, Margaret Thatcher!

--

I have nothing against God.
It's his fan club I can't stand.

spotted on a poster

Bob Terwilliger > wrote:

> I've never found out whether eggs are allowable under those rules,
> but if they are, that would open new vistas of culinary opportunity for
> fasters.

Sometimes eggs are allowed, sometimes not. Ditto wine and oil (and, by
the way, there is no distinction between different types of oil; oil is
"yeley", no matter what kind). The most authoritative source of
lithurgical (in the wider sense) rules in Eastern Orthodoxy is Typikon,
which apparently has never been fully translated into English. Fasting,
including xerophagy, rules are covered there. Here is a short
excerpt/explanation:

<http://www.stots.edu/article.php?id=19>

Victor

In article >,
Bob Terwilliger > wrote:
>Charlotte wrote:
>
>> ObFood: some of the EO people I know regard vegetable (non-olive) oil as
>> fudging somewhat during Great Lent (it's olive oil that gets the nod in
>> most lists I've seen), but those rules are quite restrictive IMO and I am
>> just kind of boggled.
>
>It certainly presents a challenge for people who want to feed tasty food to
>their families. At least they're allowed to use herbs and spices, so it
>would be possible to concoct a meal like red beans, rice, and gumbo
>z'herbes. I've never found out whether eggs are allowable under those rules,
>but if they are, that would open new vistas of culinary opportunity for
>fasters.

IIRC eggs are verboten in EO practice* for Great Lent. Used to be in
European Catholic practice as well, although apparently (at least in some
jurisdictions) it was possible to buy your way out of various
restrictions** (e.g. the tower of Rouen Cathedral called the Butter
Tower).

Note that Advent and Lent happen when there wasn't a lot of food around in
northern hemisphere agricultural societies, especially eggs and dairy
(production of which picks back up with increasing warmth and day length).
The fasting rules, being part of centuries of Tradition, are also from
times before people had (and/or expected) a lot of variety in their daily food.

As with any faith-wide fasting discipline, exceptions for the young,
elderly, infirm***, and expectant/nursing mothers are granted. I know one
EO person with an eating disorder who has been strictly enjoined to NOT
fast by her spiritual father. (Who IMO sounds like a wise man.)

* I think people get or refer calendars because there are a lot of
variations on what you're not supposed to eat (any or ALL of meat, dairy,
eggs, fish, olive oil, wine) on which days.

** Sometimes general exceptions can be granted. A couple of years ago,
St. Patrick's Day - which is ALWAYS during Lent - came on a Friday, which
caused a flurry in US Catholic circles. Numerous bishops issued "indults"
which permitted the consumption of the traditional corned beef by the
faithful under whatever conditions the bishop felt like setting.

*** I'd apply for a medical exception if my own tradition required me to
do certain kinds of fasting.

Charlotte
--

In article >,
Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>"Charlotte L. Blackmer" > wrote
>> A new outfit for Easter is hardly an invention of the modern "decadent"
>> marketing age! Back in the Middle Ages, lords traditionally gave all
>> their servants and retainers new clothes twice a year ... for
>> Christmas/New Year's/Epiphany (NY and Epiphany being the gift-giving
>> occasions) and Easter.
>
>> For me, planning Easter clothes and Easter food is part of the fun of
>> Easter.
>
>Easter is a time of re-birth, the Resurrection. A new life. New clothing
>is a part of that new beginning. Sprig is also a time of new beginnings.

It's all part of the great circle of life. Some of the great feasts of
the Church are during Lent.

On a churchy board I hang out on, someone started a thread seriously
suggesting that the church year be "simplified" - taking
Annunciation and other great feasts out of Lent because it was
"not logical" and "confusing". Not surprisingly, this person had gotten
nowhere with his own parish.

>> Items for Easter celebrations - candy, food, clothing, decorations - have
>> been "marketed" in a secular manner ever since I can remember. Those who
>> observe Lent in the traditional ways of prayer, fasting, study, service,
>> and alms-giving will certainly notice a tension between the ways of the
>> Church and the ways of the world, but again, this is nothing new and is
>> not even the first time during this church year something like this has
>> happened.
>
>All of those secular marking ploys are rooted in a tradition of meaning even
>if the meaning has been lost. I don't blame the markets as much as the
>people buying into it.

I can't even really get annoyed about what other people do in response to
the marketing. I don't have to participate, and I have been enjoined in
various ways to do my own personal inventory and leave other people to do
their own.

>I do like those coconut eggs though.

And you can buy them for half price on Easter Monday, which is just
getting rolling (Day 2 of the eight or fifty-day celebration of Easter,
depending on how you do it) if you are doing it the Church Way. We have a
tagline "we are compelled to feast" at my parish for the Fifty Days, but
personally I have had to ramp it way back because Easter Feasting Season
ran into Birthday Feasting Season (my birthday is in mid-June
and I usually run it through my original due date, July 4) and my
metabolism is not what it used to be.

ObFood: I learned recently that rice fritters were a traditional St.
Joseph's Day sweet-milky-eggy-break-from-Lent treat in parts of southern
Italy. I had heard only about zeppole (doughnuts) before but it makes
excellent sense.

Charlotte


--

ImStillMags wrote:
> Ranée at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>
>> * *The strictest fasting rules for Great Lent include abstinence from
>> meat, fish (excluding shellfish), dairy, oil and wine. *It is a fairly
>> monastic regimen, and I don't think it is commonly practiced, especially
>> in families with children. *I know that there are plenty of recipes for
>> "sauteeing" with water, to avoid using oil.
>
> I guess you guys would say I'm a complete heathen......I've never
> understood the dietary dogma in pretty much any religion.

I'm literally a heathen as I'm a polytheist. Most of the dietary rules
have good practical reasons having do with causes of food poisoning.
Some dietary rules are intended to improve the social adhession of a
church group.

Others are symbolic like not mixing dairy and meat. The Hebrew rule to
not cook a baby goat in its mother's milk is a good commentary on how
to treat the herds. An Asatru story against breaking open the bones of
a roast goat to get to the marrow is at once a commentary on the
nutritional value and advice on how to maintain the breeding stock in
small herds to be able to stay an independent farmer generation after
generation of both the goats and the humans.

What I find confusing is when there is a clash in meanings like this one
with "fast". A fast is only having water for the day, yet there are a
plethora of variations of not eating this or that.

In article >,
(Victor Sack) wrote:
> "yeley", no matter what kind). The most authoritative source of
> lithurgical (in the wider sense) rules in Eastern Orthodoxy is Typikon,
> which apparently has never been fully translated into English. Fasting,
> including xerophagy, rules are covered there. Here is a short
> excerpt/explanation:
>
> <http://www.stots.edu/article.php?id=19>
>
> Victor

Xerophagy? What the heck is that, Bubba Vic?


--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.me.com/barbschaller
Bean soup with sausage and kale, 3-1-2010

Mark Thorson wrote:

> That's for sure. I'm reminded of a Catholic I worked with
> who announced she was giving up stress for Lent. Huh?
> I thought you were supposed to give up something you like,
> like chocolate or coffee.

didn't you suspect she was making a little joke??