Hello All!

Barney wrote, with the above subject, in rec.travel .europe on Fri, 26
Mar 2010 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT):

> http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file52948.pdf

!8 pages of stuff but it does indicate that British, unlike
American, workers must receive the standard minimum wage,
*exclusive* of tips.
--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Silverton > wrote:

>Hello All!

> Barney wrote, with the above subject, in rec.travel .europe on Fri, 26
>Mar 2010 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT):

>> http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file52948.pdf

>!8 pages of stuff but it does indicate that British, unlike
>American, workers must receive the standard minimum wage,
>*exclusive* of tips.

I notice the phrase "all cash tips go to staff" being used.

I have learned that in UK, servers often get nothing from
tips put on a credit card, that this is a gift to the management.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> James Silverton > wrote:
>
> >Hello All!
>
> > Barney wrote, with the above subject, in rec.travel .europe on Fri, 26
> >Mar 2010 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT):
>
> >> http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file52948.pdf
>
> >!8 pages of stuff but it does indicate that British, unlike
> >American, workers must receive the standard minimum wage,
> >*exclusive* of tips.
>
> I notice the phrase "all cash tips go to staff" being used.
>
> I have learned that in UK, servers often get nothing from
> tips put on a credit card, that this is a gift to the management.
>
> Steve

How is that different from what goes on in the US? Many people in the US
tip the servers directly in cash, so that the server actually gets the
money.

Arri London wrote:

> How is that different from what goes on in the US? Many people in the US
> tip the servers directly in cash, so that the server actually gets the
> money.

Even if they are tipped in cash they are often expected to share their
tips with the other wait staff and with kitchen staff. One of my
nephews is a chef and in his first chef job, even the owner got a share
of the tips. She owned at least a half dozen restaurants in town.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:59:01 -0700, Arri London >
wrote:

> How is that different from what goes on in the US? Many people in the US
> tip the servers directly in cash, so that the server actually gets the
> money.

We tip in cash because cash isn't recorded income (like credit card
tips are), they are estimated. Of course, the IRS wants them to keep
a daily tally of all tips. Yeah, sure... like that's gonna happen. I
imagine that's the hidden agenda behind pooling tips. That way
management has a tally to report.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:05:03 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> Even if they are tipped in cash they are often expected to share their
> tips with the other wait staff and with kitchen staff. One of my
> nephews is a chef and in his first chef job, even the owner got a share
> of the tips. She owned at least a half dozen restaurants in town.

The owner took a cut? That's cold.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

Arri London > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> I have learned that in UK, servers often get nothing from
>> tips put on a credit card, that this is a gift to the management.

>How is that different from what goes on in the US?

In California, and many other states legally the tip must go either
to the server, or to a predefined tipping pool, whether or
not it is in cash or on a credit card. Apparently in the UK
it is legal to treat credit card tips differently.

> Many people in the US tip the servers directly in cash,
> so that the server actually gets the money.

I thought the main reason many people prefer to tip in cash
is out of the belief (which is only somewhat founded in reality)
that the server is more likely to avoid taxation on cash tips.

I do not really suspect many restaurants in the U.S., or at
least in California, of not routing tips that are on cards
to the correct recipient. I'm not saying it never happens,
just that it's uncommon and a clear breach of the restaurant's
responsibility. Apparently in the U.K. things are different,
and this is routine, expected, and legal.

Steve

sf > wrote:

> We tip in cash because cash isn't recorded income (like credit card
> tips are), they are estimated. Of course, the IRS wants them to keep
> a daily tally of all tips. Yeah, sure... like that's gonna happen. I
> imagine that's the hidden agenda behind pooling tips. That way
> management has a tally to report.

Management doesn't care if the servers report all their tips
or not. In fact, management would rather not have to deal with it,
but the IRS insists that the restaurant report all servers getting
tips based on 7% (or maybe 8% now) of their total customer's
bills. Pooling tips is a way to allow management to pay the
dishwashers below minimum wage. If they get a cut of the tips, then
they don't have to be paid more.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

sf wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:05:03 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> Even if they are tipped in cash they are often expected to share their
>> tips with the other wait staff and with kitchen staff. One of my
>> nephews is a chef and in his first chef job, even the owner got a share
>> of the tips. She owned at least a half dozen restaurants in town.
>
> The owner took a cut? That's cold.

Yep. Cheap bitch. It was my nephew's first job out of chef school. As
soon as he got a little experience there he found something else and has
no interest in working for her again. If she took a cut of the tips you
can just imagine lots of other ways to chisel money.

Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
>
> > How is that different from what goes on in the US? Many people in the US
> > tip the servers directly in cash, so that the server actually gets the
> > money.
>
> Even if they are tipped in cash they are often expected to share their
> tips with the other wait staff and with kitchen staff. One of my
> nephews is a chef and in his first chef job, even the owner got a share
> of the tips. She owned at least a half dozen restaurants in town.


Perhaps, but if it is in cash, no way for anyone else to know what the
tip actually is.

Spent a couple of months as a cleaner in a resort hotel. We were
supposed to share tips, as a room might have been cleaned by more than
one person over a couple of days or a week. However, I got better tips
cos I did a *better* job of cleaning (often working off the clock),
being concierge etc. Those were handed to me personally, so I did *not*
share. Tips left on the table or other furniture were shared.

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Arri London > wrote:
>
> >Steve Pope wrote:
>
> >> I have learned that in UK, servers often get nothing from
> >> tips put on a credit card, that this is a gift to the management.
>
> >How is that different from what goes on in the US?
>
> In California, and many other states legally the tip must go either
> to the server, or to a predefined tipping pool, whether or
> not it is in cash or on a credit card. Apparently in the UK
> it is legal to treat credit card tips differently.

Don't know. Tipping isn't customary there anyway.

>
> > Many people in the US tip the servers directly in cash,
> > so that the server actually gets the money.
>
> I thought the main reason many people prefer to tip in cash
> is out of the belief (which is only somewhat founded in reality)
> that the server is more likely to avoid taxation on cash tips.

That's partly true of course. But also to make certain it goes to the
server.

>
> I do not really suspect many restaurants in the U.S., or at
> least in California, of not routing tips that are on cards
> to the correct recipient. I'm not saying it never happens,
> just that it's uncommon and a clear breach of the restaurant's
> responsibility.

Obviously there's no way to prove that. If the server isn't also the
cashier, they can't possibly know how much was added to the tab for
their tip.


Apparently in the U.K. things are different,
> and this is routine, expected, and legal.
>
> Steve

Can't comment. None of the places I'd usually eat would expect tipping
anyway.

My story (and I'm sticking to it)

I'm from Las Vegas. I parked cars in Las Vegas.

In the seventies, the IRS found out that many people were under reporting
tips. Duh! $2,000 a month coming in on paper, and $8,000 a month going out
on documented paper. No one is that stupid.

So, they started at the top, with the dealers, then worked their way down
through the cocktail servers, bellboys, then car parkers.

We had IRS agents who would sit on a stool and watch us all day to estimate
what we made.

They came up with a figure of $64 a day, which was a LOT less than what we
were actually making.

We got audited. I paid a total of about $2,000 for back taxes and penalties
for 10 years of parking cars. (That was actually one to two good weeks.) I
figured it out about twelve times, and came up with around the $10k mark. I
didn't like it, so I called the agent, and he said he would figure it, and I
could pay that figure or fight it. I got the $2k figure, and immediately
settled. Those who fought ended up paying from $28k to $60k. WHAT WERE
THEY THINKING?

Nowadays, everything is different, with the government intrusion into every
facet of life. You're not in Kansas any more, Toto. They want to tax
everyone until they are anemic. Unless, of course, you are in politics, or
a contributor.

Steve

Arri London > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> I do not really suspect many restaurants in the U.S., or at
>> least in California, of not routing tips that are on cards
>> to the correct recipient. I'm not saying it never happens,
>> just that it's uncommon and a clear breach of the restaurant's
>> responsibility.

>Obviously there's no way to prove that. If the server isn't also the
>cashier, they can't possibly know how much was added to the tab for
>their tip.

I am something more than an anonymous, uncommunicative individual
when being a customer in bars and restaurants and I tend to converse
with the staff quite a bit. At no point in California have waitstaff
told me that they don't see the credit card tips; but in the UK
they have told me this.

I realize this is not much of a datapoint.


Steve

Arri London wrote:
>Dave Smith wrote:
>> Arri London wrote:
>>
>> > How is that different from what goes on in the US? Many people in the US
>> > tip the servers directly in cash, so that the server actually gets the
>> > money.
>>
>> Even if they are tipped in cash they are often expected to share their
>> tips with the other wait staff and with kitchen staff. One of my
>> nephews is a chef and in his first chef job, even the owner got a share
>> of the tips. She owned at least a half dozen restaurants in town.
>
>Perhaps, but if it is in cash, no way for anyone else to know what the
>tip actually is.

Exactly. I don't believe Dave's BS anyway, no way do waitstaff share
tips with the other waitstaff, not with the cooks, and certainly not
with the owner. Waitstaff will share with those who bus, that's it.
Even hos don't share tips with their pimps.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:06:58 -0700, Arri London >
wrote:

>
>
>Steve Pope wrote:
>>
>> Arri London > wrote:
>>
>> >Steve Pope wrote:
>>
>> >> I have learned that in UK, servers often get nothing from
>> >> tips put on a credit card, that this is a gift to the management.
>>
>> >How is that different from what goes on in the US?
>>
>> In California, and many other states legally the tip must go either
>> to the server, or to a predefined tipping pool, whether or
>> not it is in cash or on a credit card. Apparently in the UK
>> it is legal to treat credit card tips differently.
>
>Don't know. Tipping isn't customary there anyway.
>
>>
>> > Many people in the US tip the servers directly in cash,
>> > so that the server actually gets the money.
>>
>> I thought the main reason many people prefer to tip in cash
>> is out of the belief (which is only somewhat founded in reality)
>> that the server is more likely to avoid taxation on cash tips.
>
>That's partly true of course. But also to make certain it goes to the
>server.
>
>>
>> I do not really suspect many restaurants in the U.S., or at
>> least in California, of not routing tips that are on cards
>> to the correct recipient. I'm not saying it never happens,
>> just that it's uncommon and a clear breach of the restaurant's
>> responsibility.
>
>Obviously there's no way to prove that. If the server isn't also the
>cashier, they can't possibly know how much was added to the tab for
>their tip.

That's the silliest thing I've read this month.

Only if they can't read... typically the waitstaff delivers and picks
up the tab with the tip written in, and then they deliver the receipt
so there are two opportunities to peruse for the amount of the tip. Do
you really believe that the server doesn't peek into that folder?
In fact the server retains a copy of the tab before it's imprinted.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from Arri London > contains these words:
>
> > Steve Pope wrote:
>
> > > In California, and many other states legally the tip must go either
> > > to the server, or to a predefined tipping pool, whether or
> > > not it is in cash or on a credit card. Apparently in the UK
> > > it is legal to treat credit card tips differently.
>
> > Don't know. Tipping isn't customary there anyway.
>
> ?????? It certainly is in restaurants.

Not that much in London that I've noted though.

>
> > Apparently in the U.K. things are different,
> > > and this is routine, expected, and legal.
> > >
> > > Steve
>
> > Can't comment. None of the places I'd usually eat would expect tipping
> > anyway.
>
> It's not compulsory of course, but it is usual practice in all the
> places I eat. The standard amount is around 10%.

Most places just add a service charge to the bill. By tipping, I meant
money that goes only to the server.


> Some places add it to the credit card bill automatically; you'll see
> a warning printed on the menu. Those that don't,
> it's just up to the customer.

That's a bit different than what I meant. Just about every restaurant
will add service charges to a bill. The server may or may not get that
money.


>But I never tip on the card anyway, only
> in cash and to the server. Some of them divvy up the tips with
> colleagues and some don't.
>
> Janet UK
>