"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
. com...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
>> equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil. Gas was about the same.
>> The places we stayed did not have a dishwasher so I could not tell you if
>> it was a cold water start. Where we were, there was no natural gas
>> either.
>>
>> Offsetting the price of fuel, wine is good, plentiful, and cheap. You'd
>> be amazed at what you can get for $2 to $4 a bottle.
>
>
>
> You have to drink a hell of a lot of wine to offset those fuel prices.

We did

On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:58:53 -0700, "Bob F" > wrote:

>Tim Watts wrote:
>> On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>
>>> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
>>> by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
>>> get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the
>>> dishes. Seems like an even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed
>>> dishwasher.
>>
>> No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
>> model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
>> fills over 1-1.5 hours.
>>
>> If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
>> fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
>> heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine
>> has to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
>> bothering with.
>>
>> Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up
>> to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage
>> and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger
>> warmed up.
>
>If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
>with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
>costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:43:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
> equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil.

Some one saw you coming... 46p/l roughly the current price for 28sec
heating oil at current exchange rates is US$2.50/US Gallon (remember
a US galllon is only 3.78l, an Imperial gallon is 4.54l).

US$6.50/US Gallon is about £1.18/l even when 28 sec was eye
wateringly expensive a year or so back it wasn't that much. Round
here it peaked at about 65p/l.

Now if you are talking about pump prices for petrol (gas) or diesel
those are currently about US$6.50/US Gallon.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/05/10 20:03, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim > wrote:
>
>> On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>
>>> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
>>> (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
>>> temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
>>> stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.
>>
>> No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
>> model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
>> fills over 1-1.5 hours.
>
> Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers
> use significantly less water than washing by hand.

6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.

>> If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
>> fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
>> heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has
>> to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
>> bothering with.
>
> Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've
> seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My
> first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the
> house.

10m was a random guess. Perhaps 6m would be more realistic average. Of
course, those of us who own mansions ;-> That's 2m just to get upstairs,
then 3m to get across to wherever the tank is then 2m for wibbling pipe
around the tank and the sink. Still a sizeable fraction of the fill and
the point about combi boilers stands (these are increasingly popular here).

>> Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to
>> produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and
>> cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up.
>>
>> There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
>> they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
>> do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
>> with a gentle warm up in the machine.
>
> Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater.



--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 15/05/10 22:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:26:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>
>> Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
>> Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the washing
>> machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;->
>
> My dear old mum refused point blank to get a washing machine. Had a
> gas power copper boiler in the corner of the kitchen and a poser.
> Orginally the boiler had a mangle on the top, I remember winding the
> handle as a lad. The rubber on the rollers eventually perished and an
> upright spin dryer was purchased. But she never had a washing
> machine.
>
>> Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
>> (family of 4),
> <snip>
>> But the 2nd biggest cost after food was actually Council Tax
>
> No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
> the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.
>

2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:23:02 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

> On 15/05/10 22:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:26:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>>
>>> Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
>>> Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the
>>> washing machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;->
>>
>> My dear old mum refused point blank to get a washing machine. Had a gas
>> power copper boiler in the corner of the kitchen and a poser. Orginally
>> the boiler had a mangle on the top, I remember winding the handle as a
>> lad. The rubber on the rollers eventually perished and an upright spin
>> dryer was purchased. But she never had a washing machine.
>>
>>> Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
>>> (family of 4),
>> <snip>
>>> But the 2nd biggest cost after food was actually Council Tax
>>
>> No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
>> the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.
>>
>>
> 2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
> next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
> days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

And one of the lowest costs was healthcare! .-)

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

zzzzzzzzzz wrote
> Bob Eager > wrote
>> zzzzzzzzzz wrote

>>>> Yeah - the heating costs are the significant part by far.

Nope, the detergent costs more, essentially because so little water is used.

>>>> And a dishwasher uses electric heating, whereas
>>>> hot water may be heated by gas, solar, wood etc.

It doesnt get hot enough by solar.

>>> Dish washers are plumbed to the hot water.

Some are, some arent.

>>> They get their water from the same place your sink does,

Only the cold water.

>>> and less of it.

>>> Many dish washers do have heaters to boost the temperature further,

And so starting with solar doesnt help much cost wise.

>>> something you can't do washing by hand.

Corse you can.

>> Again, you're assuming the U.S.

>> Over here, dishwashers are usually cold fill.

> That's dumb.

Nope. It works better to start with cold water so you dont bake
on what what is on the plates etc and to heat that from cold.

>> They use very little water, so often they would fill
>> mostly cold anyway, from water lying in the pipe.

He's right.

> So you waste the water in the pipes either way.

Nope, not if the dishwasher heats from cold.

> If you're washing by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water
> needed to get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes.

Yes, but not with a dishwasher that uses cold water.

> Seems like an even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

Nope.

On 15/05/2010 23:23, Tim Watts wrote:

>> No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
>> the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.
>
> 2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
> next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
> days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

Depreciation, MOT, insurance, tax, repairs. Our car only gets used for
recreational trips too (though some of them can be quite a long way),
and I think even with zero depreciation (car bought for 500 quid 5 years
ago - it's not worth anything :-) ) it's still going to cost more than
our council tax every year. Close though.

Tim Watts wrote
> zzzzzzzzzz wrote

>> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
>> by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
>> get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even stronger argument for a
>> hot-water plumed dishwasher.

> No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of
> water over several fills over 1-1.5 hours.

They dont necessarily heat all those fills tho.

> If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per fill so half of that is cold either way

Its rather more than half because some heat
is lost from the second half heating the pipe.

> and the central heating has to heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine
> has to heat the other half from cold effectively.

And has to heat even the hottest water even more too.

> So it's hardly worth bothering with.

Particularly when you consider the baking on effect below.

> Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up
> to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage
> and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger
> warmed up.

> There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as they use around 55 litres of water for a wash

But most clothes washing works fine in cold water. Dishwashing doesnt.

> - but that's something to do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold with a gentle warm
> up in the machine.

Its not actually the detergent. Starting with cold
water avoids baking the food onto the plates.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim Watts > wrote:

>On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>
>> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
>> (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
>> temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
>> stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.
>
>No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
>model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
>fills over 1-1.5 hours.

Actually most (all?) Miele dishwashers are cold or hot fill.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
> wrote:

>>If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
>>with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
>>costs.
>
>Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
>much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
systems are insulated....

The Real Bev wrote
> Lou wrote
>> Tim Watts > wrote
>>> Bill wrote

>>>> Transition from "American Dream" living to "3rd world country" living.

>>>> Do dishes by hand.

>>> That often consumes more water with today's efficient dishwashers.

>> That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the
>> most efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.

>> However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
>> water to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department
>> calculated that filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost
>> about $20. So the price of a lower end dishwasher costing around
>> $300 would buy around 300,000 gallons of water at that price, which
>> is enough water to wash an awful lot of dishes. But then there's
>> the cost of heating the additional water washing by hand would use
>> over what the dishwasher uses.

> Especially if you just rinse off your dish after you use it.

No thanks, I prefer not to bother.

> You don't have to use hot water, though, so that complicates the calculation.

>> Still, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned - a dishwasher is far more convenient than washing dishes by hand, and
>> is a home appliance I wouldn't want to be without.

Yeah, me too. Washing machine in spades.

> That's what I thought until I actually used one.

Thats what I know when I keep using one.

> You have to rinse/scrape all the crap (especially dried egg) off the dishes before you put them in the washer

No you dont. I dont bother at all and it works fine.

I dont even bother with the things that the food is cooked in either.

> -- especially if it takes you several days to fill the washer.

It takes me 9, and I dont bother.

> If you air-dry them to save on electricity, some of the items (cup/glass bottoms, for instance) don't dry.

Mine always do. And I have no choice on the air dry, thats all the dishwasher can do.

> If you have enough dishes to more than fill the washer
> you can either let the extras hang around until you have enough to run another load or wash them by hand.

Or have enough of a clue to start the dishwasher when its full.

> The squeaky-clean feeling of the dishes that the washer DOES clean is nice,

Yep, leave hand washed for dead.

> but that seems marginal unless you're way more anal-retentive than I am.

Nope.

And I HATE washing dishes anyway.

And the dishwasher leaves the alternative for dead when
washing the grill/shutter for the kitchen exhaust fan etc.

And I wouldnt even bother to brew beer if I had to wash the emptys by
hand. I only ever got started when a mate of mine told me that the 375ml
glass bottles are fine in the dishwasher and I proved that he was right.

"Bob Eager" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 12:29:56 -0400, Lou wrote:
>
> > That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the most
> > efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.
> >
> > However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
> > water to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department
> > calculated that filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost
> > about $20. So the price of a lower end dishwasher costing around $300
> > would buy around 300,000 gallons of water at that price, which is enough
> > water to wash an awful lot of dishes. But then there's the cost of
> > heating the additional water washing by hand would use over what the
> > dishwasher uses.
>
> Your understandably US-centric view omits the fact that, for many in the
> UK, a flat charge is paid for water.

My view is not US-centric, it's me-centric. In my 60 mumble years, the only
time I've paid by the gallon for water is in my present house. Before that,
I had a well, or rented a dwelling. For the well, the incremental cost of a
gallon of water was the electricity to pump it. When I rented, water was
included in the rent.

Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
particular account might use?

"Tim Watts" > wrote in message
...
> On 15/05/10 17:29, Lou wrote:
> > "Tim > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On 15/05/10 16:07, Bill wrote:
> >>> Transition from "American Dream" living to "3rd world country" living.
> >>>
> >>> Do dishes by hand.
> >>
> >> That often consumes more water with today's efficient dishwashers.
> >
> > That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the most
> > efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.
> >
> > However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
water
> > to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department calculated
that
> > filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost about $20. So the
price
> > of a lower end dishwasher costing around $300 would buy around 300,000
> > gallons of water at that price, which is enough water to wash an awful
lot
> > of dishes.
>
> I get an infinite amount of water (well, restricted by the 1/2" main
> pipe which limits to about 55 litres/min) for my money. Though others
> round here are on meters, I've so far escaped.
>
> > But then there's the cost of heating the additional water
> > washing by hand would use over what the dishwasher uses.
>
> Yeah - the heating costs are the significant part by far. And a
> dishwasher uses electric heating, whereas hot water may be heated by
> gas, solar, wood etc.

On the other hand, you may be heating a lot less water, and so may end up
paying less when all is said and done. Incidentally, my water, which
includes the water used by the dishwasher, is heated by gas.

>
> > Still, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned - a dishwasher is far
more
> > convenient than washing dishes by hand, and is a home appliance I
wouldn't
> > want to be without.
>
> Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
> Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the washing
> machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;->
>
> Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
> (family of 4), electric only heating in winter (rebuilding a house, so
> lack of insulation and no gas heating yet). But the 2nd biggest cost
> after food was actually Council Tax (pays for the police to harrass me,
> that sort of thing). And there's nothing I can do about that other than
> sell and buy a smaller house, or a house in a different area...

For me, the biggest monthly bill is the mortgage. But that's only the
biggest one I write a check for. Federal taxes - income and social
security - are bigger yet. Local property taxes (I guess that's more or
less the equivalent of your Concil Tax) come in third.

On 16/05/10 00:33, Lou wrote:

> Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
> particular account might use?

Used to be. Now water meters are appearing everywhere. Lots of people
are still unmetered (like me) but the water companies are gaining the
rights to add compulsory metering to everyone.

It's probably a case that (until we get a drought) the incremental costs
are low anyway so they don't much care.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 16/05/10 00:40, Lou wrote:

> For me, the biggest monthly bill is the mortgage.

TBF the rent was the killer on my last place. I own this one outright so
I'd forgotton about that.

> But that's only the
> biggest one I write a check for. Federal taxes - income and social
> security - are bigger yet.

Another good one. Yes, Income Tax and National Insurance are fairly
high. But we have a sneaky scheme called PAYE (Pay as you earn) where,
unless you bother to read your payslip, you only see the net amount -
taxes and NI are creamed off before you get your pay for a majority of jobs.

> Local property taxes (I guess that's more or
> less the equivalent of your Concil Tax) come in third.
>
>
>


--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:20:17 +0100, Tim Watts > wrote:

>On 15/05/10 20:03, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim > wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>
>>>> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
>>>> (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
>>>> temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
>>>> stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.
>>>
>>> No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
>>> model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
>>> fills over 1-1.5 hours.
>>
>> Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers
>> use significantly less water than washing by hand.
>
>6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>or 2.85 imperial gallons.

I just repeated a number thrown about here. How many cycles?

>>> If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
>>> fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
>>> heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has
>>> to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
>>> bothering with.
>>
>> Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've
>> seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My
>> first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the
>> house.
>
>10m was a random guess. Perhaps 6m would be more realistic average. Of
>course, those of us who own mansions ;-> That's 2m just to get upstairs,
>then 3m to get across to wherever the tank is then 2m for wibbling pipe
>around the tank and the sink. Still a sizeable fraction of the fill and
>the point about combi boilers stands (these are increasingly popular here).

As I said in another thread, one house was 10' - maximum (more like 5') to any
hot water tap in the house. This house has the water heater in a really
strange place (above the garage) and even it's not 20'.

>>> Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to
>>> produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and
>>> cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up.
>>>
>>> There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
>>> they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
>>> do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
>>> with a gentle warm up in the machine.
>>
>> Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren > wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
> wrote:
>
>>>If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
>>>with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
>>>costs.
>>
>>Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
>>much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.
>
>I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
>back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
>systems are insulated....

I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?

"Tim Watts" > wrote in message
...
>
> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>

I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
gallons works out to 22.7 liters. A dishwasher is big enough to handle
day's worth of dishes (on a normal day, not a holiday like Christmas) for
2 - 4 people eating two meals each at home. Call it big enough to handle
four to eight place settings, plus the pots and pans used to prepare the
meals, and miscellaneous items like beverage glasses used during the day, a
coffee pot, etc. Some higher priced dishwashers use less water, but the
higher price isn't worth it, at least for me.

The price of oil may be as high as you say it is in Europe,
but the furnaces ar more efficient by at least 50 to 100%...

Here in the states....I too can have a European furnace, as having been
already offered, for a total installation cost, less radiators for $10,000.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:13:07 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:43:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
>> equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil.
>
>Some one saw you coming... 46p/l roughly the current price for 28sec
>heating oil at current exchange rates is US$2.50/US Gallon (remember
>a US galllon is only 3.78l, an Imperial gallon is 4.54l).
>
>US$6.50/US Gallon is about £1.18/l even when 28 sec was eye
>wateringly expensive a year or so back it wasn't that much. Round
>here it peaked at about 65p/l.
>
>Now if you are talking about pump prices for petrol (gas) or diesel
>those are currently about US$6.50/US Gallon.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:33:02 -0400, "Lou" > wrote:

>Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
>particular account might use?
>
No. An increasing number of water users in the UK have their
consumption metered.
For unmetered customers the 'flat charge' is variable, depending on
the 'rateable value' of the premises, i.e. the basis upon which local
taxation is levied. A fairly low-using customer, for example a single
person, living in a reasonably affluent place, is much better-off
having a metered supply.
Unlike energy (electricity/gas) suppliers the water people generally
have a sort of monopoly in a particular area.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:01:56 -0500, "
> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
> wrote:
>>
>>>>If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
>>>>with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
>>>>costs.
>>>
>>>Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
>>>much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.
>>
>>I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
>>back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
>>systems are insulated....
>
>I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
>How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?

I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
the heater, when hot is demanded.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

"Dave Liquorice" > wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:43:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
>> equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil.
>
> Some one saw you coming... 46p/l roughly the current price for 28sec
> heating oil at current exchange rates is US$2.50/US Gallon (remember
> a US galllon is only 3.78l, an Imperial gallon is 4.54l).
>
> US$6.50/US Gallon is about £1.18/l even when 28 sec was eye
> wateringly expensive a year or so back it wasn't that much. Round
> here it peaked at about 65p/l.
>
> Now if you are talking about pump prices for petrol (gas) or diesel
> those are currently about US$6.50/US Gallon.

In some countries the price of heating oil is about the same as the pump
price for diesel and yes, it is quite high. I think you are closer to the
oil fields and refineries too. Euro at the time was about 1.33. We only
needed about 5 gallons for our stay so it was not a big deal in the scheme
of things.

"Lou" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tim Watts" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>
>
> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
> gallons works out to 22.7 liters.

That six gallons is for the complete cycle. Pre-wash, wash, rinse, final
rinse.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:01:56 -0500, "
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
>>>>>with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
>>>>>costs.
>>>>
>>>>Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
>>>>much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.
>>>
>>>I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
>>>back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
>>>systems are insulated....
>>
>>I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
>>How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?
>
>I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
>manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
>wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
>the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

>Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

In article >,
zzzzzzzzzz > wrote:
>On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
[ ... ]
>>I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
>>manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
>>wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
>>the heater, when hot is demanded.

>If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

>>Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
a large central boiler as the source.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Did you hear about the new saint, San Adreas? He's the patron saint of
blame, it's all his fault.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston) wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>>On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
> [ ... ]
>>>I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
>>>manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
>>>wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
>>>the heater, when hot is demanded.
>
>>If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>
>>>Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>
>I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>
>Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
>a large central boiler as the source.

But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would like to see
how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be reliable.

> What are currently your best saving tips you recommend

Best tip is NOT CROSSPOSTING to 5 Newsgroups at a time

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:33:02 -0400, Lou wrote:

>> Your understandably US-centric view omits the fact that, for many in
>> the UK, a flat charge is paid for water.
>
> My view is not US-centric, it's me-centric. In my 60 mumble years, the
> only time I've paid by the gallon for water is in my present house.
> Before that, I had a well, or rented a dwelling. For the well, the
> incremental cost of a gallon of water was the electricity to pump it.
> When I rented, water was included in the rent.
>
> Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
> particular account might use?

What I said above. For *many* in the UK.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On May 15, 8:27*pm, Bob Eager > wrote:

Being sort in the middle here in Canada, with a harsher climate and
one tenth the population of the USA in a larger country, will add the
following comments.

Electricity, produced almost 100% by less polluting hydro (water)
power in this part of the country is reasonably priced. Domestically
homes here use electrical heating almost entirely. Especially new
construction and renovations.
Also since electrcity is used to heat hot water, if when that water
cools down in the pipe or gradually over a two week period escapes
from extremely well insulated hot water tanks it contributes to
heating the home!
If the hot water was turned off the electric heaters would have to run
just a little bit longer. All electricity entering the house ends up
as heat! So it doesn't matter how that electricity is turned into
heat; by inefficient light bulbs, electric heaters or via hot
water ............ in fact some use electric hot water 'furnaces' in
some cases replacing 50 year old, hot air or hot water, oil furnaces
or for warm water underfloor heating.

I can remember the dirt, smogs and pollution of the 1940s and 50s in
the UK when we still burned coal! Acid rain! The rain off the roof in
Liverpool, for example, was black!

"Bob F" > ha scritto nel
>>
>> How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill>> dishwasher.
>
> But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

No, because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap (and that's
strictly temporary) gas may be. The dishwasher fills with a couple of
liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3 liters that it heats. It takes less
than a minute to heat because it is so little water. Same for the rinses.
We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water
and energy than handwashing. Potable water and energy are both a potential
big problem here.

On 16/05/10 03:21, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Lou" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Tim Watts" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
>> consisting
>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
>> gallons works out to 22.7 liters.
>
> That six gallons is for the complete cycle. Pre-wash, wash, rinse, final
> rinse.

So was the 13l or 3.4 US gallons. I took that from Miele's website as
typical of a modern 60cm under worktop machine. That machine will take a
day's worth for a family of 4 unless it's a weekend and I've done a
roast, in which case it's likely to be 2 loads.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

terry wrote
> Bob Eager > wrote

> Being sort in the middle here in Canada, with a harsher
> climate and one tenth the population of the USA in a
> larger country, will add the following comments.

Pity they mangle the basics.

> Electricity, produced almost 100% by less polluting hydro
> (water) power in this part of the country is reasonably
> priced. Domestically homes here use electrical heating
> almost entirely. Especially new construction and renovations.

And that is quite unusual.

> Also since electrcity is used to heat hot water, if when that water cools
> down in the pipe or gradually over a two week period escapes from
> extremely well insulated hot water tanks it contributes to heating the home!

Bugger all in fact, and that isnt necessarily what you want in summer anyway.

> If the hot water was turned off the electric
> heaters would have to run just a little bit longer.

Not in summer, even in Canada.

> All electricity entering the house ends up as heat!

And that isnt necessarily desirable in summer!!!

> So it doesn't matter how that electricity is turned into heat;
> by inefficient light bulbs, electric heaters or via hot water ............

And that isnt necessarily desirable in summer!!!

> in fact some use electric hot water 'furnaces' in some
> cases replacing 50 year old, hot air or hot water,
> oil furnaces or for warm water underfloor heating.

Not in summer they dont.

> I can remember the dirt, smogs and pollution of the 1940s
> and 50s in the UK when we still burned coal! Acid rain!
> The rain off the roof in Liverpool, for example, was black!

Pure fantasy/mangled recollection.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:23:02 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

>> No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind
is
>> the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.
>
> 2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
> next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
> days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

I fill up with around 75l a time 4 times/month, 21,000+ miles/year...

With your level of use I think you ought to look at the *full* costs
of the car compared to taxis or hire cars. Full cost being Insurance,
MOT, Tax, Servicing, Depreciation and fuel.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Rod Speed wrote:
> terry wrote
>> Bob Eager > wrote
>
>> Being sort in the middle here in Canada, with a harsher
>> climate and one tenth the population of the USA in a
>> larger country, will add the following comments.
>
> Pity they mangle the basics.
>
>> Electricity, produced almost 100% by less polluting hydro
>> (water) power in this part of the country is reasonably
>> priced. Domestically homes here use electrical heating
>> almost entirely. Especially new construction and renovations.
>
> And that is quite unusual.
>
>> Also since electrcity is used to heat hot water, if when that water cools
>> down in the pipe or gradually over a two week period escapes from
>> extremely well insulated hot water tanks it contributes to heating the home!
>
> Bugger all in fact, and that isnt necessarily what you want in summer anyway.
>
>> If the hot water was turned off the electric
>> heaters would have to run just a little bit longer.
>
> Not in summer, even in Canada.
>
>> All electricity entering the house ends up as heat!
>
> And that isnt necessarily desirable in summer!!!
>
>> So it doesn't matter how that electricity is turned into heat;
>> by inefficient light bulbs, electric heaters or via hot water ............
>
> And that isnt necessarily desirable in summer!!!
>
>> in fact some use electric hot water 'furnaces' in some
>> cases replacing 50 year old, hot air or hot water,
>> oil furnaces or for warm water underfloor heating.
>
> Not in summer they dont.
>
>> I can remember the dirt, smogs and pollution of the 1940s
>> and 50s in the UK when we still burned coal! Acid rain!
>> The rain off the roof in Liverpool, for example, was black!
>
> Pure fantasy/mangled recollection.
>
>
we I have to say that I disagree with every single point you have badly
attempted to make

"Tim Watts" > wrote in message
...
> On 16/05/10 03:21, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >
> > "Lou" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Tim Watts" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
gallons
> >>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
> >> consisting
> >> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
> >> gallons works out to 22.7 liters.
> >
> > That six gallons is for the complete cycle. Pre-wash, wash, rinse, final
> > rinse.
>
> So was the 13l or 3.4 US gallons. I took that from Miele's website as
> typical of a modern 60cm under worktop machine. That machine will take a
> day's worth for a family of 4 unless it's a weekend and I've done a
> roast, in which case it's likely to be 2 loads.

That's an enviable efficiency as far as water use is concerned, but...

In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele dishwasher can
run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A more typical dishwasher
costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five times as expensive. That
difference will buy an awful lot of water - in my area, about 849,000 US
gallons (3,213,814 liters). Even if the cheaper dishwasher used 10 gallons
a load, if the thing was run once a day, it would take 232 years for the
water savings to break even on the additional cost, not counting the expense
of heating the additional water and assuming water costs don't go up.

If that's all that was available I'd buy it, but in the face of cheaper
alternatives, it just isn't worth it on purely economic terms.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:34:23 -0400, Lou wrote:

> "Tim Watts" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 16/05/10 03:21, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> >
>> > "Lou" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "Tim Watts" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>>
>> >>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
> gallons
>> >>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
>> >> consisting
>> >> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six
>> >> US gallons works out to 22.7 liters.
>> >
>> > That six gallons is for the complete cycle. Pre-wash, wash, rinse,
>> > final rinse.
>>
>> So was the 13l or 3.4 US gallons. I took that from Miele's website as
>> typical of a modern 60cm under worktop machine. That machine will take
>> a day's worth for a family of 4 unless it's a weekend and I've done a
>> roast, in which case it's likely to be 2 loads.
>
> That's an enviable efficiency as far as water use is concerned, but...
>
> In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele dishwasher
> can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A more typical
> dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five times as
> expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water - in my area,
> about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters). Even if the cheaper
> dishwasher used 10 gallons a load, if the thing was run once a day, it
> would take 232 years for the water savings to break even on the
> additional cost, not counting the expense of heating the additional
> water and assuming water costs don't go up.
>
> If that's all that was available I'd buy it, but in the face of cheaper
> alternatives, it just isn't worth it on purely economic terms.

We have a considerably cheaper Bosch dishwasher, and it uses a similar
amount of water. The choice of Miele was perhaps unfortunate as an
example.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
> "Tim > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>
>
> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
<>
>
Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
be quints?

--
Rod

Bob Eager > wrote:

>On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:34:23 -0400, Lou wrote:

>> In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele dishwasher
>> can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model.

>We have a considerably cheaper Bosch dishwasher, and it uses a similar
>amount of water. The choice of Miele was perhaps unfortunate as an
>example.

Yep. Bosch is the poor man's Miele.

They're both good, but the repair record is better for the Miele.

Steve

On Sun, 16 May 2010 16:33:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

>
>Yep. Bosch is the poor man's Miele.
>
>They're both good, but the repair record is better for the Miele.

What on earth is supposed to go wrong with them? I've had my Bosche
so long I can't even tell you how old it is and it hasn't needed
repair yet. I suspect anything that goes wrong with them has more to
do with hard water issues than with the machine itself.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.