In article >,
Rod > wrote:

> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
> > "Tim > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
> >> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
> >>
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
> > for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
> <>
> >
> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
> be quints?

An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts. It is 4 liters. One liter
is slightly more than 1 quart.

1 Imperial gallon has approximately 4 and 1/2 quarts.

It's why we use 4 liter glass bottles instead of gallons when we
purchase water from the local grocery store filtered water dispenser.
;-) We saved old 4 liter glass wine bottles.

Plus water tastes better out of glass than it does plastic!
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Â*Only Irish Â*coffee provides in a single glass all four Â*essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar Â*and fat. --Alex Levine

On May 16, 5:48�pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> �Rod > wrote:
> > On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
> > > "Tim > �wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > >> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
> > >> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>
> > > I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
> > > for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
> > <>
>
> > Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
> > be quints?
>
> An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts. �It is 4 liters. �One liter
> is slightly more than 1 quart.
>
> 1 Imperial gallon has approximately 4 and 1/2 quarts.
>
> It's why we use 4 liter glass bottles instead of gallons when we
> purchase water from the local grocery store filtered water dispenser.
> ;-) We saved old 4 liter glass wine bottles.
>
> Plus water tastes better out of glass than it does plastic!
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
> �Only Irish �coffee provides in a single glass all four �essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar �and fat. �--Alex Levine

There are four imperial quarts in one imperial gallon. Also there are
eight imperial pints in one imperial gallon. Don't mix them up. Or,
go metric.
There are 4.54 litres in an imperial gallon.
And a litre of petrol in the UK is �1.24. Thats about $8 /US gallon..
Mostly tax.
F***k!

On 16/05/10 16:34, Lou wrote:
> "Tim > wrote in message
> ...

>> So was the 13l or 3.4 US gallons. I took that from Miele's website as
>> typical of a modern 60cm under worktop machine. That machine will take a
>> day's worth for a family of 4 unless it's a weekend and I've done a
>> roast, in which case it's likely to be 2 loads.
>
> That's an enviable efficiency as far as water use is concerned, but...

That's the EU for you!

> In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele dishwasher can
> run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A more typical dishwasher
> costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five times as expensive. That
> difference will buy an awful lot of water

The Miele will probably last twice as long as a good Bosch and 5 times
as long as the cheap crap at the bottom of the scale making it cost
neutral in the long term and better for the environment, and whilst I
have a beard I don't possess sandles nor do I form intimate relations
with trees (ie I'm not a loony greeny).

It's certainly been my experience that whilst Bosch Logixx (not the
Classix or Excel which are not really German) is a pretty good machine,
the engineering quality in the Mieles are outstanding. I expect my
washing machine to last 20 years and remain serviceable.

Bosch at least are also quite serviceable machines with spare parts
being readily available and quite DIY-able.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 16/05/10 17:14, Bob Eager wrote:

> We have a considerably cheaper Bosch dishwasher, and it uses a similar
> amount of water. The choice of Miele was perhaps unfortunate as an
> example.
>

Yes.

But it's uk-d-i-y. Someone will say: "angle grinder" in a minute ;->

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 16/05/10 17:48, Omelet wrote:
> In >,
> > wrote:
>
>> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>>> "Tim > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
>>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
>> <>
>>>
>> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>> be quints?
>
> An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts. It is 4 liters. One liter
> is slightly more than 1 quart.

Nn imperial gallon consists of 4 imperial quarts, each of which is 2
imperial pints, each pint being 20 imperial fl oz.

We might have our balls in the vice grip of the EU but we still buy beer
by the pint and the firkin and the barrel, or very occasionally, the yard.

They did metrify spirits many years back though - no longer is a shot
or measure 1/6 of a gill

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, Rod > wrote:

>On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>> "Tim > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
><>
>>
>Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>be quints?

Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to equal five
32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).

On Sun, 16 May 2010 10:45:00 +0200, "Giusi" > wrote:

>
>"Bob F" > ha scritto nel
>>>
>>> How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill>> dishwasher.
>>
>> But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.
>
>No, because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap (and that's
>strictly temporary) gas may be. The dishwasher fills with a couple of
>liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3 liters that it heats. It takes less
>than a minute to heat because it is so little water. Same for the rinses.
>We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water
>and energy than handwashing. Potable water and energy are both a potential
>big problem here.

No, because that tank water heater is running anyway. Its loss can't be piled
on one side of the equation and not the other.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 00:29:17 -0700 (PDT), terry >
wrote:

>On May 15, 8:27*pm, Bob Eager > wrote:
>
>Being sort in the middle here in Canada, with a harsher climate and
>one tenth the population of the USA in a larger country, will add the
>following comments.
>
>Electricity, produced almost 100% by less polluting hydro (water)
>power in this part of the country is reasonably priced. Domestically
>homes here use electrical heating almost entirely. Especially new
>construction and renovations.

Tell the enviro-whackos that.

>Also since electrcity is used to heat hot water, if when that water
>cools down in the pipe or gradually over a two week period escapes
>from extremely well insulated hot water tanks it contributes to
>heating the home!

Then why insulate the tank at all?

>If the hot water was turned off the electric heaters would have to run
>just a little bit longer. All electricity entering the house ends up
>as heat! So it doesn't matter how that electricity is turned into
>heat; by inefficient light bulbs, electric heaters or via hot
>water ............ in fact some use electric hot water 'furnaces' in
>some cases replacing 50 year old, hot air or hot water, oil furnaces
>or for warm water underfloor heating.
>
>I can remember the dirt, smogs and pollution of the 1940s and 50s in
>the UK when we still burned coal! Acid rain! The rain off the roof in
>Liverpool, for example, was black!

Yes, it's amazing how little pollution there is anymore, even in the dirty
USA. Guess why? Because we can afford to clean up the environment. If the
Deomicrats have their way we'll be back to burning wood in a pit.

"sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>>
>>Yep. Bosch is the poor man's Miele.
>>
>>They're both good, but the repair record is better for the Miele.
>
> What on earth is supposed to go wrong with them? I've had my Bosche> so
> long I can't even tell you how old it is and it hasn't needed> repair yet.
> I suspect anything that goes wrong with them has more to
> do with hard water issues than with the machine itself.

Well, I tripped over a rug and fell backwards onto the open dishwasher door.
No DW is guaranteed against me. Those spine thingies hurt, too.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:48:40 -0500, Omelet wrote:

> An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts.

Define which quart. A gallon has 4 quarts from the same system but:

An imperial gallon is 4.8 US liquid quarts.
A US liquid gallon is 3.33 imperial quarts.

> It is 4 liters.

An Imperial Gallon is 4.54 litres.

> One liter is slightly more than 1 quart.

1.056 US Liquid Quarts.
0.88 Imperial Quarts.

> 1 Imperial gallon has approximately 4 and 1/2 quarts.

You need to define your quarts...

> It's why we use 4 liter glass bottles instead of gallons when we
> purchase water from the local grocery store filtered water dispenser.

4 litres are the same as 4.22 US liquid quarts.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 18:09:03 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

> On 16/05/10 17:14, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> We have a considerably cheaper Bosch dishwasher, and it uses a similar
>> amount of water. The choice of Miele was perhaps unfortunate as an
>> example.
>>
>>
> Yes.
>
> But it's uk-d-i-y. Someone will say: "angle grinder" in a minute ;->

I wasn't saying that Miele wasn't a good choice, I hasten to add. Just
that the figures look worse. Our Bosch dishwasher is comign up to 10
years of age, and it's just had a small spring and the drain hose
replaced (by me).


--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 16/05/2010 18:14, Tim Watts wrote:
<>
>
> They did metrify spirits many years back though - no longer is a shot or
> measure 1/6 of a gill
>
Or 1/5 or 1/4 in Scotland...

--
Rod

On Sun, 16 May 2010 20:02:04 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:
>
>"sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>> What on earth is supposed to go wrong with them? I've had my Bosch> so
>> long I can't even tell you how old it is and it hasn't needed> repair yet.
>> I suspect anything that goes wrong with them has more to
>> do with hard water issues than with the machine itself.
>
>Well, I tripped over a rug and fell backwards onto the open dishwasher door.
>No DW is guaranteed against me. Those spine thingies hurt, too.
>
I have nothing witty to add, but my first thought was - OUCH!

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 16 May 2010 12:36:49 -0500, "
> wrote:

>If the Deomicrats have their way we'll be back to burning wood in a pit.

Unbelievable.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Giusi wrote
> Bob F > wrote

>>> How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.

>> But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

> No,

Yes, he did say MAY.

> because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

> (and that's strictly temporary) gas may be.

Not necessarily.

> The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3 liters that it heats.

Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot water all the time.

> It takes less than a minute to heat because it is so little water. Same for the rinses.

The rinses arent necessarily done with hot water. Only my last one is.

> We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water and energy than handwashing.

The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

> Potable water and energy are both a potential big problem here.

But they dont necessarily use less total energy, particularly with drying.

On 5/16/2010 6:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, > wrote:
>> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>>> "Tim > wrote
>>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
>>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>
>>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
>>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
>>>
>> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>> be quints?
>
> Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to equal five
> 32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).
>
But - the Imperial ounce isn't exactly the same as the US ounce...

On 16/05/2010 22:34, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 5/16/2010 6:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, > wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>>>> "Tim > wrote
>>>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
>>>>> gallons
>>>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
>>>> consisting
>>>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
>>>>
>>> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>>> be quints?
>>
>> Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to
>> equal five
>> 32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).
>>
> But - the Imperial ounce isn't exactly the same as the US ounce...

Nor even is the Imperial fluid ounce equal to the US fluid ounce...

--
Rod

Lou wrote:

> In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele
> dishwasher can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A
> more typical dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five
> times as expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water -
> in my area, about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters).

When you figure in the sewage charge, my water is WAY more expensive than that.
About $12.50 per ccf, which is 748 gallons, or about 1.7 cents / gallon. Heating
it cost significantly more than that in addition, I'm sure. $3.50 of that $12.50
is the actual water charge.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from Rod > contains these words:
>
> > On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
> > > "Tim > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
> > >> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
> > > for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
> > <>
> > >
> > Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
> > be quints?
>
> 5 US quarts = 1 UK gallon.
>
> Don't mention kitchen scales.
>
> Janet


<vbg>

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston)
> wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> zzzzzzzzzz > wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
>>>> manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the
>>>> top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is
>>>> looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>>
>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>>
>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>>
>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>>
>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
>> a large central boiler as the source.
>
> But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
> like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
> reliable.

As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra return line.
If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and 30 seconds later (or less)
I can turn on the hot and have it hot in 2 seconds.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

> Yes, it's amazing how little pollution there is anymore, even in the
> dirty USA. Guess why? Because we can afford to clean up the
> environment. If the Deomicrats have their way we'll be back to
> burning wood in a pit.

Funny, since it was the republicans fighting tooth and nail to stop the
environmental laws that cleaned up the air and water. Kinda like they are doing
now.

In article
>,
harry > wrote:

> On May 16, 5:48?pm, Omelet > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > ?Rod > wrote:
> > > On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
> > > > "Tim > ?wrote in message
> > > ...
> >
> > > >> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
> > > >> gallons
> > > >> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
> >
> > > > I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
> > > > consisting
> > > > for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
> > > <>
> >
> > > Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
> > > be quints?
> >
> > An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts. ?It is 4 liters. ?One liter
> > is slightly more than 1 quart.
> >
> > 1 Imperial gallon has approximately 4 and 1/2 quarts.
> >
> > It's why we use 4 liter glass bottles instead of gallons when we
> > purchase water from the local grocery store filtered water dispenser.
> > ;-) We saved old 4 liter glass wine bottles.
> >
> > Plus water tastes better out of glass than it does plastic!
>
> There are four imperial quarts in one imperial gallon. Also there are
> eight imperial pints in one imperial gallon. Don't mix them up. Or,
> go metric.
> There are 4.54 litres in an imperial gallon.
> And a litre of petrol in the UK is ?1.24. Thats about $8 /US gallon.
> Mostly tax.
> F***k!

See? I was right. <g>
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Â*Only Irish Â*coffee provides in a single glass all four Â*essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar Â*and fat. --Alex Levine

In article o.uk>,
"Dave Liquorice" > wrote:

> On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:48:40 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>
> > An Imperial gallon has more than 4 quarts.
>
> Define which quart. A gallon has 4 quarts from the same system but:
>
> An imperial gallon is 4.8 US liquid quarts.
> A US liquid gallon is 3.33 imperial quarts.
>
> > It is 4 liters.
>
> An Imperial Gallon is 4.54 litres.
>
> > One liter is slightly more than 1 quart.
>
> 1.056 US Liquid Quarts.
> 0.88 Imperial Quarts.
>
> > 1 Imperial gallon has approximately 4 and 1/2 quarts.
>
> You need to define your quarts...
>
> > It's why we use 4 liter glass bottles instead of gallons when we
> > purchase water from the local grocery store filtered water dispenser.
>
> 4 litres are the same as 4.22 US liquid quarts.

The math still works in that one Imperial Gallon is worth more than 4
American quarts. ;-)

Wal-mart charges by the American Gallon for purified water from the
dispensers and does not change the price for using bottles that hold one
Imperial Gallon... so we get more for our money even after informing the
cashier of such.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

On Sun, 16 May 2010 22:43:35 +0100, Rod > wrote:

>On 16/05/2010 22:34, S Viemeister wrote:
>> On 5/16/2010 6:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, > wrote:
>>>> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>>>>> "Tim > wrote
>>>>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
>>>>>> gallons
>>>>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
>>>>> consisting
>>>>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
>>>>>
>>>> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>>>> be quints?
>>>
>>> Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to
>>> equal five
>>> 32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).
>>>
>> But - the Imperial ounce isn't exactly the same as the US ounce...
>
>Nor even is the Imperial fluid ounce equal to the US fluid ounce...

Which is why I wrote the "Well, close enough (within .1%)" part. See, I knew
some assholes would try to pick the simple math apart with such trivia. I'm
not disappointed. ;-)

On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" > wrote:

wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> zzzzzzzzzz > wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>>> [ ... ]
>>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
>>>>> manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the
>>>>> top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is
>>>>> looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>>>
>>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>>>
>>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>>>
>>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>>>
>>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
>>> a large central boiler as the source.
>>
>> But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
>> like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
>> reliable.
>
>As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra return line.
>If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and 30 seconds later (or less)
>I can turn on the hot and have it hot in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:11:57 -0700, "Bob F" > wrote:

wrote:
>
>> Yes, it's amazing how little pollution there is anymore, even in the
>> dirty USA. Guess why? Because we can afford to clean up the
>> environment. If the Deomicrats have their way we'll be back to
>> burning wood in a pit.
>
>Funny, since it was the republicans fighting tooth and nail to stop the
>environmental laws that cleaned up the air and water. Kinda like they are doing
>now.

Nonsense.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" >
> wrote:
>
>> zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> zzzzzzzzzz > wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
>>>>>> PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
>>>>>> the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
>>>>>> is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>>>>
>>>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>>>>
>>>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>>>>
>>>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
>>>> with a large central boiler as the source.
>>>
>>> But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
>>> like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
>>> reliable.
>>
>> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
>> return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and 30
>> seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot in 2
>> seconds.
>
> At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
> recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon water. I
don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.

"Rod Speed" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote

>> because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap
>
> Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

I have that type of water heater, but it takes a lot of water running before
the water is hot.

>> The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains,
>> then 3 liters that it heats.
>
> Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot
> water all the time.

Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold, and maybe
the first rinse is cold. How would I know?

>> We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less
>> water and energy than handwashing.
>
> The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved heat from
a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period followed by the
sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot. On occasion I have
opened it right away to get something I wanted and burned my fingers, but
there is not hot air period that follows that rinse.

On May 17, 1:04*am, "Bob F" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" >
> > wrote:
>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston)
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> In article >,
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
> >>>> *[ ... ]
> >>>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
> >>>>>> PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
> >>>>>> the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
> >>>>>> is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>
> >>>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>
> >>>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>
> >>>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>
> >>>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
> >>>> with a large central boiler as the source.
>
> >>> But for hot water? *Residential? *It's possible, sure, just would
> >>> like to see how this thing works. *Sounds too complicated to be
> >>> reliable.
>
> >> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
> >> return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and 30
> >> seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot in 2
> >> seconds.
>
> > At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. *I understand how a
> > recirculation pump works. *How's this magic manifold work?
>
> At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon water. I
> don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
water in the lines. Read the thread.

keith wrote:
> On May 17, 1:04 am, "Bob F" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" >
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary
>>>>> Heston) wrote:
>>
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
>>>>>> [ ... ]
>>>>>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
>>>>>>>> PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
>>>>>>>> the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
>>>>>>>> is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>>
>>>>>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>>
>>>>>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>>
>>>>>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>>
>>>>>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
>>>>>> with a large central boiler as the source.
>>
>>>>> But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
>>>>> like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
>>>>> reliable.
>>
>>>> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
>>>> return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and
>>>> 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot
>>>> in 2 seconds.
>>
>>> At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
>>> recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?
>>
>> At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
>> water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.
>
> When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
> water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled. And I haven't
dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting for it to get hot. Try
thinking.

Giusi wrote:
> "Rod Speed" ha scritto nel messaggio
>> Giusi wrote
>
>>> because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap
>>
>> Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.
>
> I have that type of water heater, but it takes a lot of water running
> before the water is hot.
>
>>> The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses,
>>> drains, then 3 liters that it heats.
>>
>> Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use
>> hot water all the time.
>
> Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold,
> and maybe the first rinse is cold. How would I know?
>
>>> We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses
>>> less water and energy than handwashing.
>>
>> The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.
>
> We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved
> heat from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period
> followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot.
> On occasion I have opened it right away to get something I wanted and
> burned my fingers, but there is not hot air period that follows that
> rinse.

That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.

"Bob F" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote:
>> We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved>> heat
>> from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period>>
>> followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot.
>> On occasion I have opened it right away to get something I wanted and>>
>> burned my fingers, but there is not hot air period that follows that>>
>> rinse.
>
> That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.

What does that mean... that my DW does have a hot air dry and I just don't
know it? You'll just have to trust me on that. Water is heated in small
quantities twice and there is no hot air drying. It is low energy and very
low water consumption.

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>Giusi wrote
>> Bob F > wrote
>
>>>> How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.
>
>>> But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.
>
>> No,
>
>Yes, he did say MAY.
>
>> because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap
>
>Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.
>
>> (and that's strictly temporary) gas may be.
>
>Not necessarily.
>
>> The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3
> liters that it heats.
>
>Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot water
> all the time.
>
>> It takes less than a minute to heat because it is so little water. Same for
> the rinses.
>
>The rinses arent necessarily done with hot water. Only my last one is.
>
>> We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water
> and energy than handwashing.
>
>The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.
>
>> Potable water and energy are both a potential big problem here.
>
>But they dont necessarily use less total energy, particularly with drying.

i always throw in the fodd along with my dishes, why waste energy ???

http://www.salon.com/nov96/salmon961118.html

Giusi wrote:
> "Bob F" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>> Giusi wrote:
>>> We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved>>
>>> heat from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a
>>> period>> followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes
>>> are very hot. On occasion I have opened it right away to get
>>> something I wanted and>> burned my fingers, but there is not hot
>>> air period that follows that>> rinse.
>>
>> That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.
>
> What does that mean... that my DW does have a hot air dry and I just
> don't know it? You'll just have to trust me on that. Water is
> heated in small quantities twice and there is no hot air drying. It
> is low energy and very low water consumption.

Sorry, I could have chosen a better place for this followup - it wasn't aimed at
your comment specifically, just followed the most recent post. It relates to the
"dishwashers use less energy" claim.

On May 17, 10:11*am, "Bob F" > wrote:
> keith wrote:
> > On May 17, 1:04 am, "Bob F" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" >
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary
> >>>>> Heston) wrote:
>
> >>>>>> In article >,
> >>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren > wrote:
> >>>>>> [ ... ]
> >>>>>>>> I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
> >>>>>>>> PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
> >>>>>>>> the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
> >>>>>>>> is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.
>
> >>>>>>> If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.
>
> >>>>>>>> Gosh that "word" escapes me now.
>
> >>>>>> I believe that's a convection circulating system.
>
> >>>>>> Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
> >>>>>> with a large central boiler as the source.
>
> >>>>> But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
> >>>>> like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
> >>>>> reliable.
>
> >>>> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
> >>>> return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and
> >>>> 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot
> >>>> in 2 seconds.
>
> >>> At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
> >>> recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?
>
> >> At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
> >> water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.
>
> > When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
> > water in the lines. *Read the thread.
>
> No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled. And I haven't
> dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting for it to get hot. Try
> thinking.

Baloney. The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. Truy not
to make crap up.

On 17/05/2010 06:00, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2010 22:43:35 +0100, > wrote:
>
>> On 16/05/2010 22:34, S Viemeister wrote:
>>> On 5/16/2010 6:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, > wrote:
>>>>> On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
>>>>>> "Tim > wrote
>>>>>>> 6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
>>>>>>> gallons
>>>>>>> or 2.85 imperial gallons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
>>>>>> consisting
>>>>>> for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
>>>>> be quints?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to
>>>> equal five
>>>> 32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).
>>>>
>>> But - the Imperial ounce isn't exactly the same as the US ounce...
>>
>> Nor even is the Imperial fluid ounce equal to the US fluid ounce...
>
> Which is why I wrote the "Well, close enough (within .1%)" part. See, I knew
> some assholes would try to pick the simple math apart with such trivia. I'm
> not disappointed. ;-)
>
Well if you want nit-picking the US fluid ounce isn't even equal to the
US fluid ounce for nutrition.

--
Rod

Giusi wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Giusi wrote
>>> Bob F > wrote

>>>>> How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.

>>>> But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

>>> No,

>> Yes, he did say MAY.

>>> because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

>> Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

> I have that type of water heater,

And not everyone does.

> but it takes a lot of water running before the water is hot.

Yes, that is one of the real downsides of that type of hot water system.

>>> The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3 liters that it heats.

>> Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot water all the time.

> Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold, and maybe the first rinse is cold.

With mine its only the last rinse that is hot and that appears
to be so the dishes will dry without hot air drying, like yours.

> How would I know?

Open the dishwasher at the end of each rinse cycle, just after you
heat it start to pump out for that rinse and check the water temp.

>>> We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water and energy than handwashing.

>> The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

> We do not have heated drying in our DWs.

Yes you do with some of them.

> It dries using reserved heat from a superhot rinse cycle.

Yes, mine operates the same way, but that isnt universal.

> You can hear silence for a period followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot. On occasion I
> have opened it right away to get something I wanted and burned my fingers,

Yeah, me too, when I was trying to clean some old beer bottles I got
at a yard sale and was trying to check how well they had been cleaned.

Didnt actually get burnt, but I certainly had to let go quickly.

> but there is not hot air period that follows that rinse.

Yes, but that isnt anything like universal with all dishwashers.

keith wrote:
>>>>>> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
>>>>>> extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
>>>>>> button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
>>>>>> have it hot in 2 seconds.
>>
>>>>> At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
>>>>> recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?
>>
>>>> At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
>>>> water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
>>>> is.
>>
>>> When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
>>> hot water in the lines. Read the thread.
>>
>> No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
>> And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
>> for it to get hot. Try thinking.
>
> Baloney. The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. Truy not
> to make crap up.

I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

"Bob F" > wrote in message
...
> Lou wrote:
>
> > In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele
> > dishwasher can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A
> > more typical dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five
> > times as expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water -
> > in my area, about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters).
>
> When you figure in the sewage charge, my water is WAY more expensive than
that.
> About $12.50 per ccf, which is 748 gallons, or about 1.7 cents / gallon.
Heating
> it cost significantly more than that in addition, I'm sure. $3.50 of that
$12.50
> is the actual water charge.

Where I live, water and sewer are billed together, there's no way to break
them out. The sewage charge is based on the water used - there's no meter
on the drains. That means when I fill my pool or water my lawn, I'm also
paying a charge for sewer. I base my estimates on the township water
department - it's a long story, but when I needed an estimate of how much it
would cost to fill the pool, the price they came up with was twenty bucks
for my 20,000 gallon pool. That works out to a cent per gallon.

The charges go up with increasing usage in a period - draw on that 20,000
gallons over a period of years (as a dishwasher would) and the price per
gallon would be less. I've never asked what it would cost to fill my pool
43 time during one billing period.

On May 17, 6:49*pm, "Bob F" > wrote:
> keith wrote:
> >>>>>> As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
> >>>>>> extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
> >>>>>> button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
> >>>>>> have it hot in 2 seconds.
>
> >>>>> At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
> >>>>> recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?
>
> >>>> At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
> >>>> water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
> >>>> is.
>
> >>> When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
> >>> hot water in the lines. Read the thread.
>
> >> No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
> >> And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
> >> for it to get hot. Try thinking.
>
> > Baloney. *The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. *Truy not
> > to make crap up.
>
> I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

Experience and common sense. Water doesn't change temperuature
instantaneously. To get hot water you have to recycle until it's
hot. There will be hot water in the return line.

> It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
> to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

....and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS.