"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> Why call a dutch oven a dutch oven? I'm sure that many other
> cultures/nations have been using that idea ever since iron was
> cast.
>

wikipedia,
Early European history
During the late 1600s the Dutch system of producing these cast metal cooking
vessels was more advanced than the English system. The Dutch used dry sand
to make their molds, giving their pots a smoother surface. Consequently,
metal cooking vessels produced in the Netherlands were imported into
Britain. In 1704, an Englishman named Abraham Darbydecided to go to the
Netherlands to observe the Dutch system for making these cooking vessels.
Four years later, back in England, Darby patented a casting procedure
similar to the Dutch process and began to produce cast metal cooking vessels
for Britain and her new American Colonies. It is possible that because Darby's
patent was based upon his research into the Dutch foundry system that the
cooking vessels he produced came to be referred to as "Dutch" ovens. Other
researchers believe that this term may have come from the itinerant Dutch
traders who sold cooking vessels out of their wagons as they traveled from
town to town and door to door. Maybe both accounts are true. In any event,
the term "Dutch oven" has endured for over 300 years.[1]

piedmont

On May 16, 9:17*pm, "piedmont" > wrote:
> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Why call a dutch oven a dutch oven? *I'm sure that many other
> > cultures/nations have been using that idea ever since iron was
> > cast.
>
I thought it was an ethnic slur - like Dutch Treat or Dutch Courage,
from an antagonism we've forgotten about except as language
artifacts. Maybe directed at Germans?

Bulka

On May 16, 7:10*pm, bulka > wrote:
> On May 16, 9:17*pm, "piedmont" > wrote:> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
>
> .. .
>
> > > Why call a dutch oven a dutch oven? *I'm sure that many other
> > > cultures/nations have been using that idea ever since iron was
> > > cast.
>
> I thought it was an ethnic slur - like Dutch Treat or Dutch Courage,
> from an antagonism we've forgotten about except as language
> artifacts. *Maybe directed at Germans?


Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to Germans
of all people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with concentration
camp crematorium ovens?

"Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel messaggio
news:f282b494-2df2-4367-

Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to Germansof all
people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with concentrationcamp
crematorium ovens?

You must be culturally adrift. Pennsylvania Dutch have affected American
English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.

On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:29:48 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:

>
> "Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:f282b494-2df2-4367-
>
> Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to Germansof all
> people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with concentrationcamp
> crematorium ovens?
>
> You must be culturally adrift. Pennsylvania Dutch have affected American
> English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.
>
Insult? Culturally adrift? Oh, man. I'm one who has never thought
"going Dutch" was an insult. It just meant you were independent and
owed nobody a "favor" because you paid for (took care of) yourself.
It's an old fashioned concept.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On May 17, 9:53*am, sf > wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:29:48 +0200, "Giusi" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:f282b494-2df2-4367-
>
> > Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to Germansof all
> > people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with concentrationcamp
> > crematorium ovens?
>
> > You must be culturally adrift. *Pennsylvania Dutch have affected American
> > English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.
>
> Insult? *Culturally adrift? *Oh, man. *I'm one who has never thought
> "going Dutch" was an insult. *It just meant you were independent and
> owed nobody a "favor" because you paid for (took care of) yourself.
> It's an old fashioned concept.
>

First, the point is that if I invite you to pay your own way I am not
treating you; if I need a drink to be brave, that is not real courage;
a heavy metal pot is not a real oven.

And the Dutch/deutsh thing is obvious. Did the Pennsylvania Dutch
come from the Netherlands? The name was confused/corrupted in PA.

I'll look into this.

Bulka

From entymonline.com entry for Dutch:

In Holland, duitsch is used of the people of Germany. The M.E. sense
survives in Pennsylvania Dutch, who immigrated from the Rhineland and
Switzerland. Since 1608, Dutch (adj.) has been a "pejorative label
pinned by English speakers on almost anything they regard as inferior,
irregular, or contrary to 'normal' (i.e., their own)
practice" [Rawson]. E.g. Dutch treat (1887), Dutch uncle (1838), etc.
-- probably exceeded in such usage only by Indian and Irish --
reflecting first British commercial and military rivalry and later
heavy Ger. immigration to U.S.

The Dutch themselves spoke English well enough to understand the
unsavory connotations of the label and in 1934 Dutch officials were
ordered by their government to stop using the term Dutch. Instead,
they were to rewrite their sentences so as to employ the official The
Netherlands. [Rawson]

Bulka

On Mon, 17 May 2010 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT), bulka
> wrote:

> And the Dutch/deutsh thing is obvious.

Call me oblivious. It had to be pointed out to me. I supposed that's
what you get in an area that swallows it's L's and says
"Phiwadewphia".


>Did the Pennsylvania Dutch
> come from the Netherlands? The name was confused/corrupted in PA.
>
> I'll look into this.
>
> Bulka

You're from Michigan too. Our Dutch came from the Netherlands and we
have Holland, Michigan, to prove it.


--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

sf wrote:

> On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:29:48 +0200, "Giusi" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel
> > messaggio news:f282b494-2df2-4367-
> >
> > Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to
> > Germansof all people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with
> > concentrationcamp crematorium ovens?
> >
> > You must be culturally adrift. Pennsylvania Dutch have affected
> > American English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.
> >
> Insult? Culturally adrift? Oh, man. I'm one who has never thought
> "going Dutch" was an insult. It just meant you were independent and
> owed nobody a "favor" because you paid for (took care of) yourself.
> It's an old fashioned concept.

I'm fairly sure "Dutch treat" was originally intended as an insult.

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)

bulka wrote:

> On May 17, 9:53*am, sf > wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:29:48 +0200, "Giusi" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel
> > > messaggio news:f282b494-2df2-4367-
> >
> > > Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to
> > > Germansof all people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with
> > > concentrationcamp crematorium ovens?
> >
> > > You must be culturally adrift. *Pennsylvania Dutch have affected
> > > American English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.
> >
> > Insult? *Culturally adrift? *Oh, man. *I'm one who has never thought
> > "going Dutch" was an insult. *It just meant you were independent and
> > owed nobody a "favor" because you paid for (took care of) yourself.
> > It's an old fashioned concept.
> >
>
> First, the point is that if I invite you to pay your own way I am not
> treating you; if I need a drink to be brave, that is not real courage;
> a heavy metal pot is not a real oven.
>
> And the Dutch/deutsh thing is obvious. Did the Pennsylvania Dutch
> come from the Netherlands? The name was confused/corrupted in PA.

Not exactly; Dutch Schulz wasn't from Pennsylvania, for example.

From www.etymonline.com:
* 1
* 2

Dutch Look up Dutch at Dictionary.com
c.1380, used first of Germans generally, after c.1600 of
Hollanders, from M.Du. duutsch, from O.H.G. duit-isc, corresponding to
O.E. þeodisc "belonging to the people," used especially of the common
language of Germanic people, from þeod "people, race, nation," from
P.Gmc. *theudo "popular, national" (see Teutonic), from PIE base
*teuta- "people" (cf. O.Ir. tuoth "people," O.Lith. tauta "people,"
O.Prus. tauto "country," Oscan touto "community"). As a language name,
first recorded as L. theodice, 786 C.E. in correspondence between
Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical
conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. First reference to
the German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later.
The sense was extended from the language to the people who spoke it (in
Ger., Diutisklant, ancestor of Deutschland, was in use by 13c.). Sense
narrowed to "of the Netherlands" in 17c., after they became a united,
independent state and the focus of English attention and rivalry. In
Holland, duitsch is used of the people of Germany. The M.E. sense
survives in Pennsylvania Dutch, who immigrated from the Rhineland and
Switzerland. Since 1608, Dutch (adj.) has been a "pejorative label
pinned by English speakers on almost anything they regard as inferior,
irregular, or contrary to 'normal' (i.e., their own) practice"
[Rawson]. E.g. Dutch treat (1887), Dutch uncle (1838), etc. -- probably
exceeded in such usage only by Indian and Irish -- reflecting first
British commercial and military rivalry and later heavy Ger.
immigration to U.S.

The Dutch themselves spoke English well enough to understand
the unsavory connotations of the label and in 1934 Dutch officials were
ordered by their government to stop using the term Dutch. Instead, they
were to rewrite their sentences so as to employ the official The
Netherlands. [Rawson]

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)

bulka wrote:

> From entymonline.com entry for Dutch:
>
> In Holland, duitsch is used of the people of Germany. The M.E. sense
> survives in Pennsylvania Dutch, who immigrated from the Rhineland and
> Switzerland. Since 1608, Dutch (adj.) has been a "pejorative label
> pinned by English speakers on almost anything they regard as inferior,
> irregular, or contrary to 'normal' (i.e., their own)
> practice" [Rawson]. E.g. Dutch treat (1887), Dutch uncle (1838), etc.
> -- probably exceeded in such usage only by Indian and Irish --
> reflecting first British commercial and military rivalry and later
> heavy Ger. immigration to U.S.
>
> The Dutch themselves spoke English well enough to understand the
> unsavory connotations of the label and in 1934 Dutch officials were
> ordered by their government to stop using the term Dutch. Instead,
> they were to rewrite their sentences so as to employ the official The
> Netherlands. [Rawson]
>
> Bulka

And I just quoted that in reply to your earlier message....

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)

bulka wrote:

> Did the Pennsylvania Dutch
> come from the Netherlands?

Actually, I'm fairly sure they do have some Netherlandish ancestry....

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)

bulka wrote:

> a heavy metal pot is not a real oven.


A heavy metal pot that is heated from the outside on the top and bottom
(usually by charcoal briquettes these days) should certainly count as an
oven, as opposed to a heavy metal pot that is placed on top of a stove
burner.

Samantha Hill wrote:
> bulka wrote:
>
>> a heavy metal pot is not a real oven.
>
>
> A heavy metal pot that is heated from the outside on the top and bottom
> (usually by charcoal briquettes these days) should certainly count as an
> oven, as opposed to a heavy metal pot that is placed on top of a stove
> burner.

I agree, we always carried a heavy cast iron dutch oven with three feet
on the bottom and a recessed lid. Baked bread, biscuits, cakes, etc.
right in the coals of the camp fire.

My Mom was born in 1905 on the Cherokee Rez in Oklahoma Territory, she
told many stories about cooking in the fireplace using dutch ovens. When
we built our first house it had a fireplace and I put a pot hook on
either side. When the power went off we could still cook over the coals
in the fireplace and made many meals that way during the winter rather
than use the electric stove.

On Mon, 17 May 2010 13:25:57 -0500, "Dan Goodman" >
wrote:

> sf wrote:
>
> > >
> > Insult? Culturally adrift? Oh, man. I'm one who has never thought
> > "going Dutch" was an insult. It just meant you were independent and
> > owed nobody a "favor" because you paid for (took care of) yourself.
> > It's an old fashioned concept.
>
> I'm fairly sure "Dutch treat" was originally intended as an insult.

Maybe - but by the time *I* was a kid, it was not. It was a way to
say let's go somewhere and each of us will pay our own bill. It could
apply to a group or one other person and you could say it to either
sex. It started as preteen, predating socialization and moved into
teenage relationships. In retrospect, what I especially liked was it
freed up the girls to enjoy themselves because they wouldn't feel
pressured after a date.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On May 17, 12:29*am, "Giusi" > wrote:
> "Ostap Bender" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:f282b494-2df2-4367-
>
> Why would the kitchen term "Dutch oven" be an insult, and to Germans of all
> people? Are you confusing these cooking pots with concentration camp
> crematorium ovens?
>
> You must be culturally adrift. *Pennsylvania Dutch have affected American
> English for 2 centuries, and they are German = deutsch.

I am aware of the similarity between the words Dutch and Deutsch. That
was not my point. My point is that Dutch ovens are nothing to be
ashamed of, and thus don't seem to be an insult.

BTW, according to Alton Brown's "research" on Good Eats, the origin of
the word "Dutch ovens" is either due to the fact that Abraham Darby
produced cast iron using Dutch techniques or (more likely) because in
the early period, most of them were sold by the Dutch East India
Company.

On Mon, 17 May 2010 16:40:33 -0700, Ranee at Arabian Knits
> wrote:

> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
> > It started as preteen, predating socialization and moved into
> > teenage relationships. In retrospect, what I especially liked was it
> > freed up the girls to enjoy themselves because they wouldn't feel
> > pressured after a date.
>
> I don't know if it was because of how I was raised, or the time I was
> raised or what, but I _never_ felt pressured to do anything based on a
> boy or man taking me out for a meal or date. Likewise, I didn't order
> the least expensive item on the menu (unless I actually wanted it), nor
> the most expensive, but that was a product of my upbringing in not being
> rude and taking advantage of someone else. I figured if a man was
> taking me out, it was because he wanted to be in my company.
>
It was the times. You benefited from the women's rights movement,
Ranee. Time had changed by the time you were dating.

Did you ever watch Mad Men? The attitudes they portrayed of the times
were right on. My dad was in advertising at the time.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

The intended "insult" isn't/wasn't to the people going dutch, or using
a dutch oven, but to the Dutch and later, Germans. Snarky politics,
akin to the recent "Freedom Fries" nonsense.

I'm done.

b

sf wrote:
> "Dan Goodman" > wrote:
>
>> I'm fairly sure "Dutch treat" was originally intended as an insult.

Back when I worked in the space program there were some ESA engineers on
site from the Netherlands. They jokingly called it "American treat".
It was hilarious and a bunch of us used the term for over a year after
they left.

> Maybe - but by the time *I* was a kid, it was not. It was a way to
> say let's go somewhere and each of us will pay our own bill. It could
> apply to a group or one other person and you could say it to either
> sex. It started as preteen, predating socialization and moved into
> teenage relationships. In retrospect, what I especially liked was it
> freed up the girls to enjoy themselves because they wouldn't feel
> pressured after a date.

On the other hand once definitely dating it is seen as a move towards
dropping the other person. I remeber that happening back when I was
single and I didn't get the correlation until months later. The first
sign of the relationship going down hill was when I was no longer
expected to pay for the date.

I get that everyone paying their way can be negotiated up front while
dating and the culture has changed in 2-3 decades but based on my
experience going dutch equals declaring that it's not a date.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> sf wrote:
>> "Dan Goodman" > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm fairly sure "Dutch treat" was originally intended as an insult.
>
> Back when I worked in the space program there were some ESA engineers on
> site from the Netherlands. They jokingly called it "American treat".
> It was hilarious and a bunch of us used the term for over a year after
> they left.
>
>> Maybe - but by the time *I* was a kid, it was not. It was a way to
>> say let's go somewhere and each of us will pay our own bill. It could
>> apply to a group or one other person and you could say it to either
>> sex. It started as preteen, predating socialization and moved into
>> teenage relationships. In retrospect, what I especially liked was it
>> freed up the girls to enjoy themselves because they wouldn't feel
>> pressured after a date.
>
> On the other hand once definitely dating it is seen as a move towards
> dropping the other person. I remeber that happening back when I was
> single and I didn't get the correlation until months later. The first
> sign of the relationship going down hill was when I was no longer
> expected to pay for the date.
>
> I get that everyone paying their way can be negotiated up front while
> dating and the culture has changed in 2-3 decades but based on my
> experience going dutch equals declaring that it's not a date.

The same applies to five decades ago when I was dating, the gentleman
paid for the date, if it was "Dutch treat" everyone paid their own way
and there was no date or anything else implied. <G> We did a lot of
dollar night for a car load of kids at the local drive in theater. Ten
or twelve kids in my sedan and everyone kicked in money for the dollar.
Sodas and popcorn costs were on whoever bought them. I don't think you
can go out anywhere that cheap anymore. My grandkids tell me it's fifty
bucks just to go the the movies on a date anymore.

On May 18, 12:06*pm, Ranee at Arabian Knits >
wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *sf > wrote:
> > It was the times. *You benefited from the women's rights movement,
> > Ranee. *Time had changed by the time you were dating.
>
> * *Perhaps, but from my perspective, the women's movement ended up being
> more about how women could behave just as badly as the bad men did. *It
> put a different set of expectations on women, that were there regardless
> of who paid for whom. *I don't think the cads and dogs could have
> planned it better for themselves. *:-(

Like the Bowie song, Suffragette City?
>
> > Did you ever watch Mad Men? *The attitudes they portrayed of the times
> > were right on. *My dad was in advertising at the time.
>
> * *I've wanted to see it, because I love the clothes, hair and music of
> the era, but since we have no television and I haven't worked hard
> enough to see it anywhere else, it hasn't worked out.

Netflix. There are exactly two TV shows we are interested in, Mad Men
and True Blood. We are anxiously awaiting the DVD releases of this
season's shows. I think Netflix has a 30 day free trial. I'd far
rather pay $8.99/month for Netflix than whatever people pay who get
cable or satellite.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee @ Arabian Knits

--Bryan

On Tue, 18 May 2010 16:18:35 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
> wrote:

> I get that everyone paying their way can be negotiated up front while
> dating and the culture has changed in 2-3 decades but based on my
> experience going dutch equals declaring that it's not a date.

Of course! Sheesh, girls don't want to fight off Roman hands after
every single blinking male encounter. It's nice to know them as just
plain friends too.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> sf wrote:
>>> "Dan Goodman" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm fairly sure "Dutch treat" was originally intended as an insult.
>>
>> Back when I worked in the space program there were some ESA engineers on
>> site from the Netherlands. They jokingly called it "American treat". It
>> was hilarious and a bunch of us used the term for over a year after
>> they left.
>>
>>> Maybe - but by the time *I* was a kid, it was not. It was a way to
>>> say let's go somewhere and each of us will pay our own bill. It could
>>> apply to a group or one other person and you could say it to either
>>> sex. It started as preteen, predating socialization and moved into
>>> teenage relationships. In retrospect, what I especially liked was it
>>> freed up the girls to enjoy themselves because they wouldn't feel
>>> pressured after a date.
>>
>> On the other hand once definitely dating it is seen as a move towards
>> dropping the other person. I remeber that happening back when I was
>> single and I didn't get the correlation until months later. The first
>> sign of the relationship going down hill was when I was no longer
>> expected to pay for the date.
>>
>> I get that everyone paying their way can be negotiated up front while
>> dating and the culture has changed in 2-3 decades but based on my
>> experience going dutch equals declaring that it's not a date.
>
> The same applies to five decades ago when I was dating, the gentleman paid
> for the date, if it was "Dutch treat" everyone paid their own way and
> there was no date or anything else implied. <G> We did a lot of dollar
> night for a car load of kids at the local drive in theater. Ten or twelve
> kids in my sedan and everyone kicked in money for the dollar. Sodas and
> popcorn costs were on whoever bought them. I don't think you can go out
> anywhere that cheap anymore. My grandkids tell me it's fifty bucks just to
> go the the movies on a date anymore.


Yep, it costs a lot just to get in. Then, of course, you have to hit the
concession stand for snacks. Going to the movies is not a cheap date. A
little cheesy, maybe But definitely not cheap.

Jill