On 6/21/2010 8:24 AM, blake murphy wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:06:36 -1000, dsi1 wrote:
>
>> On 6/19/2010 3:16 AM, Omelet wrote:
>>> In >,
>>> "Lew > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Omelet" wrote:
>>>>> Never heard of stainless steel? ;-)
>>>> ----------------------
>>>>
>>>> 18-8 S/S (pots& pans) is non magnetic.
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>
>>> Ok, I'll have to look those up.
>>> If they don't contain Iron, what makes them steel at all?
>>
>> You're correct that it ain't steel if it don't contain iron. As far as I
>> know, SS is mostly iron. The magnetic properties of SS depends on the
>> alloy mix. Whether or not all SS pans are non-magnetic and unsuitable
>> for induction cooking is unclear.
>
> just for the hell of it, i took a fairly strong magnet to a farberware
> copper-clad stainless frying pan: bottom, inside and out, magnet doesn't
> stick at all. sides, inside and out, sticks slightly more so toward the
> top (i guess because that's where the rolled lip is).
>
> what this means for an induction cooktop, no idea. probably not good.

All-clad makes a set of SS cookware. That's unfortunate cause I'm a
pretty big cheapskate.

>
> your pal,
> blake

In article >, dsi1 >
wrote:

> >> Steel is a purified form of iron. It was an expensive material to
> >> produce until Andrew Carnegie introduced new, cheaper methods of making
> >> steel in America in the 1880s. This made him really rich and made
> >> possible the modern skyscraper - it's great stuff and we still use it
> >> today, a hundred years later.
> >
> > I see I'll have to do some googling.<G> Thanks!
>
> You could watch more TV.

I don't have time.

> I got the above factoid from watching an
> episode from the series "America, The Story of US" on the History Channel.
>
> BTW, iron and steel is eminently recyclable. My guess is that it's the
> number one recycled material along with water. Your car carries the DNA
> of the history of the US auto manufacturing in it's steel parts,
> probably the history of the foreign auto manufacturing too. OTOH, iron
> has been recycled from the beginning - all steel was formed within the
> furnaces of the stars. That blows my mind!

I agree. :-)
I recycle as much as I am allowed...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

On Jun 20, 8:41*pm, Dave Smith > wrote:

> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it may interest
> people to know that powdered aluminum is considered to be hazardous
> materials that is subject to spontaneous combustion.

Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and put it into
a
cardboard tube.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy wrote on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT):

>> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it may
>> interest people to know that powdered aluminum is considered
>> to be hazardous materials that is subject to spontaneous
>> combustion.

> Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and put
> it into a
> cardboard tube.

It can be ignited but I really doubt about *spontaneous" combustion even
if you could get it to burn. I know if you mix aluminum powder with iron
oxide (rust) and ignite it, you get one of the hottest fires that exists
and it will even burn below water. They call the mix Thermite.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On 22/06/2010 2:42 AM, Omelet wrote:
> In m.au>,
> > wrote:
>
>> Even in the narrow range of concentrations which make up steel, mixtures
>> of carbon and iron can form a number of different structures, with very
>> different properties. Understanding such properties is essential to
>> making quality steel.
>
> So how do you feel about recycled steel?
> Tons of dead cars go over to other countries ever year to become more
> cars.
>
> I've heard bad things about engine blocks made from it.

contaminants - see below
>
> Is it simply a matter of forging temperatures?
>
> I'm very much a believer in recycling whenever and wherever possible...

Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.

Many years back, when we were running a desert rally in the Pilbara
region of Western Australia, I took the opportunity to visit and do
tours of the iron ore mining and port facilities. I was amazed at the
purity of the iron ore they were digging up, anything up to 90%. Much of
the ore was too pure for the smelters in Japan so one of the functions
of the loading process at the port was to grade the ore into the desired
purity level by blending high and low grade ores. The smelter operators
knew exactly what impurities were present and could gear the processes
up to deal with it.

If you get an opportunity, go visit a car recycling plant and see just
how cars are recycled. They aren't stripped into their component parts
and graded into various levels of steel. Instead the entire care is
shredded or just simply crushed into a block. Contaminants include glass
and plastics, not good inputs into the steelmaking process.

Plastic recycling is becoming more sophisticated these days with the
various forms and grades of plastic being marked with identifying labels
to expedite the recycling process.

I personally don't like to see cars recycled that way as it creates a
dire shortage of raw materials for hotrod builders like myself. In the
old days you could find old cars in just about every backyard in this
country. Not so nowadays and the building of hotrods will necessarily be
forced to change their tactics in the future because of this.

Krypsis

James Silverton wrote:
> Cindy wrote on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT):
>
>>> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it may
>>> interest people to know that powdered aluminum is considered
>>> to be hazardous materials that is subject to spontaneous
>>> combustion.
>
>> Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and put
>> it into a
>> cardboard tube.
>
> It can be ignited but I really doubt about *spontaneous" combustion even
> if you could get it to burn. I know if you mix aluminum powder with iron
> oxide (rust) and ignite it, you get one of the hottest fires that exists
> and it will even burn below water. They call the mix Thermite.
>


Under the regulations for shipping hazardous materials, non-coated
aluminum powder is a Class 4.3 Packing Group II because it reacts
vigorously with water and Packing Group II because it reacts vigorously
with water. Care must be taken to make sure that it is kept dry, even
protecting it from humidity. I have heard of cases of it catching fire
while sitting on trailers in truck stops. You cannot use water to
extinguish the fire.

Omelet wrote:
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>> George wrote:
>
>> > In the case of S/S it is the nickle which makes it non-magnetic. S/S
>> > that contains both chromium and nickle is called "austenitic" or
>> > commonly known as 300 series. 300 series alloys that have low amounts of
>> > nickle can become magnetized.
>
>> Curiously, nickel is magnetic. However, when it is added to steel the
>> crystals are formed in a way that makes the product non-magnetic.
>
> So magnetism is a property of metallic structure and not elemental
> content?

Magnetic retention is a function of the element combine with the crystal
structure. Because magnets have poles even on the scale of atoms it's
possible to form crystals where the poles line up to make the object
more magnetic and it's possible to form crystals where the poles go
opposite to make an object that is nearly non-magnetic.

Crystal structure is microscopic, metallic structure is macroscopic.
Metals are made of lots of crystals put together. If a crystal can
shift its pole to line up with other poles then the ramdom crystals in
the metal is magnetic. If a crystal can't shift its pol to line up then
the fact that there are a lot of randomly oriented crystals keep the
metal non-magnetic.

If you've ever worked with sugar to manipulate its many types of
crystals to make hard candy versus fudge you know how complex and
technical it can be. Metalurgy with iron/steel has the exact same set
of issues.

For that matter chocolate is temperer to make it stronger using
temperature sequences in a way that very much reminds me of tempering
steel by using temperature sequences. Both sugar and steel are made of
a single material (iron or glucose/fructose) that can have many
different crystal structures and so both can be manipulated with skill.

A highly skilled candy maker and a highly skilled steel smith could
learn each other's dictionary of technical terms and crcoss train in
each other's skill with less effort than you might expect.

When I watch Challenge on FoodTV I often watch the candy specialists
temper chocolate and/or sugar and wonder what sort of mixtures they
could use to make their sculptures stronger and less brittle. With
steel it's done by making the metal soft on the inside and hard on the
outside with a quick quench to drop the temperature and freeze the
crystal structure. Making candy sculptures is very similar in principle
to making buildings or bridges.

On 22/06/2010 2:28 AM, Omelet wrote:
> In .au>,
> > wrote:
>
>> On 21/06/2010 3:26 PM, Omelet wrote:
>>> In >,
>>> "Lew > wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is known as "tempering" which reduces some of the brittleness,
>>>> but increases the ductility.
>>>
>>> I had to google that word. New one to add to my vocabulary.<g>
>>> Appears to be similar to Malleability. That one I knew...
>>
>> Well actually, "malleability" is similar to "ductility" because both are
>> inherent properties of a substance. "Tempering", on the other hand, is a
>> process whereby the properties of a material can be altered through heat
>> treatment. You might want to look up "quenching" as that can form part
>> of the process of tempering.
>>
>> Krypsis (A thwarted blacksmith)
>
> Why thwarted? :-)
> There is a reason that "Smith" is a very common last name.
> Take it up as a hobby.

I did, after a fashion. Used to build hot rods from the ground up in the
fifties and sixties. I still have four of them that I built back in that
era.

My parents and many members of my extended family were farmers. They
would do a lot of their own blacksmithing from necessity and, on visits
to relatives farms in my youth, became fascinated with the process. My
parents saw the writing on the wall for the future of farming in this
country and sold the farm before I was born. They refused to allow me to
take that path and, in hindsight, I see that they had great vision. The
farms of today aren't the same as they were when I was young. They are
now mostly mechanised and employ contractors to do various seasonal
tasks such as shearing, planting, harvesting and the like. Very few
people live and work on farms these days.

I instead grew up in the city and undertook a career as a public
servant. Now, 57 years later, I still operate as a consultant.

Krypsis

On 22/06/2010 3:53 AM, Omelet wrote:
> In ng.com>,
> Dave > wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard bad things about engine blocks made from it.
>>>
>>> Is it simply a matter of forging temperatures?
>>>
>>> I'm very much a believer in recycling whenever and wherever possible...
>>
>> Scrap steal is an important component in the steel making process. I
>> still remember a class trip I went on in elementary school, a tour of a
>> steel plant. It was fascinating.
>
> I'd like that. :-) My focus in High School was in Ag and Music.
> I did learn a lot about poultry processing...
>
> Which is why I always rinse my chickens thoroughly!

A friend used to work in an abbatoir. He flat out refuses to eat
sausages any more having seen the input into them. I don't intend to do
any abbatoir tours!

Krypsis

Omelet wrote:
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>> Some additives will make steel stronger, and some make it more brittle.
>> Even heat treating can alter the properties of steel. Heat a piece of
>> steel until it is cherry red and then immerse it water to cool it
>> quickly will make it more brittle. You can take a piece of steel bar and
>> it will bend when enough force is exerted on it. If you use that
>> heating and quenching process, that same steel will not bend. It will snap.
>
> Does not tempering like that to hardness make it brittle, but harder and
> hold a sharper edge too?

It works by the same principle as steel reinforced concrete which is
stronger per weight then either steel or concrete. There's a soft/tough
material (concrete). There's a hard/brittle material (steel). When
they are mixed the soft material tries to stretch to the hard material.
The hard material gets stressed and toughens. For a very simple example
consider a plastic bottle filled with water. The water pressure puts
the plastic under tension and makes it stronger.

Doing that with steel has a hard crystal type on the outside and a soft
crystal type on the inside. It's the same element but because there are
different crystal types it's not the same material in a strict material
sense.

Doing it with all steel and heat treatment it can seem like magic. But
steel reinforced concrete seemed like magic to me until I spent a
quarter in college grinding through the math in my statics and materials
course. Ye gods that was a miserable course. But now i understand why
tempered chocolate works because I understand why tempered steel works
because I understand why steel reinforced concrete works. All the same
principle.

Krypsis wrote:
> On 22/06/2010 2:42 AM, Omelet wrote:
>
> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
> recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
> iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
> arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
> as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.
>
> Many years back, when we were running a desert rally in the Pilbara
> region of Western Australia, I took the opportunity to visit and do
> tours of the iron ore mining and port facilities. I was amazed at the
> purity of the iron ore they were digging up, anything up to 90%. Much of
> the ore was too pure for the smelters in Japan so one of the functions
> of the loading process at the port was to grade the ore into the desired
> purity level by blending high and low grade ores. The smelter operators
> knew exactly what impurities were present and could gear the processes
> up to deal with it.


I worked in an alloy smelting plant for two summers, one of them in the
furnace room and one in the sample room. We used to take samples of the
ore that was brought to our plant by ship. The ore was unloaded from the
ship into sump trucks and we took a pailful of ore from every 5th truck,
ground it down, split it into parts and ended up with one pail of
powdered ore to send to up to the lab for analysis.

Mix recipes were then made up for the furnaces, with the amount of each
type of ore, coke and lime to go into each batch in the furnace. The
stuff was all cooked up in arc furnaces and a sample was taken from the
middle of each tap, ground into powder and thens ent to the lab for
analysis. Each batch was poured into a pan mold to set and then
transferred to cooling racks where they usually fell apart. An tag was
attached to each one to show the amount of carbon, manganese, iron,
silicon etc. Then it was was crushed up and put into drums. When an
order came in, various batches were mixed together to come up with the
proper percentages of each element in the alloy additive. They went to
steel companies to be added to the steel in order to have the proper
make-up of whatever specialized steel they were making.




> If you get an opportunity, go visit a car recycling plant and see just
> how cars are recycled. They aren't stripped into their component parts
> and graded into various levels of steel. Instead the entire care is
> shredded or just simply crushed into a block. Contaminants include glass
> and plastics, not good inputs into the steelmaking process.


As a matter of fact, I was in a car recycling yard last month looking
for a hub cap for my wife's car. The tires had been removed and the
wheel rims were used to old the bodies up off the ground (not mounted).
Various parts had been removed from some of the cars. They keep tabs of
what they have in the yard. If someone comes in looking for a particular
part for a car, like an engine, alternator, door, fenders etc. they may
go out and remove it for the person, or let him go out and get it himself.


Obviously, there is limited demand for some parts, so they don't just
buy up every old scrap car around for parts, but there really are car
part recycling centres, not just scrap car dealers.

Omelet wrote:
>
> So how do you feel about recycled steel?
>
> Is it simply a matter of forging temperatures?
>
> I'm very much a believer in recycling whenever and wherever possible...

Steel, asphalt, sugar. In every case it's easy to screw them up with
the wrong temperature sequence. In every case they have to be melted
completely and the impurities removed to refine (scrap steel is much
easier to refine than iron ore, ground road is much easier to refine
than crude oil, shattered sugar is much easier to refine than cane in
the field).

Get the melt and purify step right and the source no longer matters.
Get the melt and purify step wrong and you've carried the old problems
into the new product.

On 22/06/2010 7:02 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> Krypsis wrote:
>> On 22/06/2010 2:42 AM, Omelet wrote:
>>
>> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
>> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running
>> the recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that
>> the iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably
>> this arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the
>> recycled steel as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.
>>
>> Many years back, when we were running a desert rally in the Pilbara
>> region of Western Australia, I took the opportunity to visit and do
>> tours of the iron ore mining and port facilities. I was amazed at the
>> purity of the iron ore they were digging up, anything up to 90%. Much
>> of the ore was too pure for the smelters in Japan so one of the
>> functions of the loading process at the port was to grade the ore into
>> the desired purity level by blending high and low grade ores. The
>> smelter operators knew exactly what impurities were present and could
>> gear the processes up to deal with it.
>
>
> I worked in an alloy smelting plant for two summers, one of them in the
> furnace room and one in the sample room. We used to take samples of the
> ore that was brought to our plant by ship. The ore was unloaded from the
> ship into sump trucks and we took a pailful of ore from every 5th truck,
> ground it down, split it into parts and ended up with one pail of
> powdered ore to send to up to the lab for analysis.
>
> Mix recipes were then made up for the furnaces, with the amount of each
> type of ore, coke and lime to go into each batch in the furnace. The
> stuff was all cooked up in arc furnaces and a sample was taken from the
> middle of each tap, ground into powder and thens ent to the lab for
> analysis. Each batch was poured into a pan mold to set and then
> transferred to cooling racks where they usually fell apart. An tag was
> attached to each one to show the amount of carbon, manganese, iron,
> silicon etc. Then it was was crushed up and put into drums. When an
> order came in, various batches were mixed together to come up with the
> proper percentages of each element in the alloy additive. They went to
> steel companies to be added to the steel in order to have the proper
> make-up of whatever specialized steel they were making.
>
>
>
>
>> If you get an opportunity, go visit a car recycling plant and see just
>> how cars are recycled. They aren't stripped into their component parts
>> and graded into various levels of steel. Instead the entire care is
>> shredded or just simply crushed into a block. Contaminants include
>> glass and plastics, not good inputs into the steelmaking process.
>
>
> As a matter of fact, I was in a car recycling yard last month looking
> for a hub cap for my wife's car. The tires had been removed and the
> wheel rims were used to old the bodies up off the ground (not mounted).
> Various parts had been removed from some of the cars. They keep tabs of
> what they have in the yard. If someone comes in looking for a particular
> part for a car, like an engine, alternator, door, fenders etc. they may
> go out and remove it for the person, or let him go out and get it himself.
>
>
> Obviously, there is limited demand for some parts, so they don't just
> buy up every old scrap car around for parts, but there really are car
> part recycling centres, not just scrap car dealers.

Yes, we have them too. A notable example here is a company called "Pick
A Part" where you can go in and remove the part you want yourself.
Problem for us old rodders is that they only stock relatively recent
models, not the old beasts that make the best rods!

Krypsis

Krypsis wrote:
>
> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
> recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
> iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
> arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
> as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.

Like this one:

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm

On 22/06/2010 7:10 AM, Mark Thorson wrote:
> Krypsis wrote:
>>
>> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
>> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
>> recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
>> iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
>> arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
>> as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.
>
> Like this one:
>
> http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm

An extreme case of a recycling problem! ;-)

Krypsis

On Jun 22, 8:38*am, Krypsis > wrote:

> Many years back, when we were running a desert rally in the Pilbara
> region of Western Australia, I took the opportunity to visit and do
> tours of the iron ore mining and port facilities.


******* ROTFLMAO. A tired old tart running a car rally. I'd like to
see that.

Next minute you'll be telling us about the reports you wrote that were
si secret even you could'nt read them.

Stick to your tea trolly old man and save the cut and pastes to the
experts.

*GRIN*

In article >,
"James Silverton" > wrote:

> Cindy wrote on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT):
>
> >> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it may
> >> interest people to know that powdered aluminum is considered
> >> to be hazardous materials that is subject to spontaneous
> >> combustion.
>
> > Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and put
> > it into a
> > cardboard tube.
>
> It can be ignited but I really doubt about *spontaneous" combustion even
> if you could get it to burn. I know if you mix aluminum powder with iron
> oxide (rust) and ignite it, you get one of the hottest fires that exists
> and it will even burn below water. They call the mix Thermite.

Part pyro James? :-)
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article > ,
Krypsis > wrote:

> On 22/06/2010 2:42 AM, Omelet wrote:
> > In m.au>,
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Even in the narrow range of concentrations which make up steel, mixtures
> >> of carbon and iron can form a number of different structures, with very
> >> different properties. Understanding such properties is essential to
> >> making quality steel.
> >
> > So how do you feel about recycled steel?
> > Tons of dead cars go over to other countries ever year to become more
> > cars.
> >
> > I've heard bad things about engine blocks made from it.
>
> contaminants - see below
> >
> > Is it simply a matter of forging temperatures?
> >
> > I'm very much a believer in recycling whenever and wherever possible...
>
> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
> recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
> iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
> arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
> as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.

Cars are often cubed whole so I can see that as a problem.
>
> Many years back, when we were running a desert rally in the Pilbara
> region of Western Australia, I took the opportunity to visit and do
> tours of the iron ore mining and port facilities. I was amazed at the
> purity of the iron ore they were digging up, anything up to 90%. Much of
> the ore was too pure for the smelters in Japan so one of the functions
> of the loading process at the port was to grade the ore into the desired
> purity level by blending high and low grade ores. The smelter operators
> knew exactly what impurities were present and could gear the processes
> up to deal with it.
>
> If you get an opportunity, go visit a car recycling plant and see just
> how cars are recycled. They aren't stripped into their component parts
> and graded into various levels of steel. Instead the entire care is
> shredded or just simply crushed into a block. Contaminants include glass
> and plastics, not good inputs into the steelmaking process.

I understand that. I would imagine that some of it would burn off, but
not all of it.

>
> Plastic recycling is becoming more sophisticated these days with the
> various forms and grades of plastic being marked with identifying labels
> to expedite the recycling process.
>
> I personally don't like to see cars recycled that way as it creates a
> dire shortage of raw materials for hotrod builders like myself. In the
> old days you could find old cars in just about every backyard in this
> country. Not so nowadays and the building of hotrods will necessarily be
> forced to change their tactics in the future because of this.
>
> Krypsis

Yes. Unfortunately, dead cars in yards tend to provide nesting sites
for Norway rats. That is why there are ordinances against them here.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
Doug Freyburger > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > Dave Smith > wrote:
> >> George wrote:
> >
> >> > In the case of S/S it is the nickle which makes it non-magnetic. S/S
> >> > that contains both chromium and nickle is called "austenitic" or
> >> > commonly known as 300 series. 300 series alloys that have low amounts of
> >> > nickle can become magnetized.
> >
> >> Curiously, nickel is magnetic. However, when it is added to steel the
> >> crystals are formed in a way that makes the product non-magnetic.
> >
> > So magnetism is a property of metallic structure and not elemental
> > content?
>
> Magnetic retention is a function of the element combine with the crystal
> structure. Because magnets have poles even on the scale of atoms it's
> possible to form crystals where the poles line up to make the object
> more magnetic and it's possible to form crystals where the poles go
> opposite to make an object that is nearly non-magnetic.
>
> Crystal structure is microscopic, metallic structure is macroscopic.
> Metals are made of lots of crystals put together. If a crystal can
> shift its pole to line up with other poles then the ramdom crystals in
> the metal is magnetic. If a crystal can't shift its pol to line up then
> the fact that there are a lot of randomly oriented crystals keep the
> metal non-magnetic.

So it's a matter of molecular alignment?
>
> If you've ever worked with sugar to manipulate its many types of
> crystals to make hard candy versus fudge you know how complex and
> technical it can be. Metalurgy with iron/steel has the exact same set
> of issues.

Which keeps it on topic. <g>
>
> For that matter chocolate is temperer to make it stronger using
> temperature sequences in a way that very much reminds me of tempering
> steel by using temperature sequences. Both sugar and steel are made of
> a single material (iron or glucose/fructose) that can have many
> different crystal structures and so both can be manipulated with skill.
>
> A highly skilled candy maker and a highly skilled steel smith could
> learn each other's dictionary of technical terms and crcoss train in
> each other's skill with less effort than you might expect.

<lol> How fun!
>
> When I watch Challenge on FoodTV I often watch the candy specialists
> temper chocolate and/or sugar and wonder what sort of mixtures they
> could use to make their sculptures stronger and less brittle. With
> steel it's done by making the metal soft on the inside and hard on the
> outside with a quick quench to drop the temperature and freeze the
> crystal structure. Making candy sculptures is very similar in principle
> to making buildings or bridges.

Thanks. :-)
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article > ,
Krypsis > wrote:

> > Why thwarted? :-)
> > There is a reason that "Smith" is a very common last name.
> > Take it up as a hobby.
>
> I did, after a fashion. Used to build hot rods from the ground up in the
> fifties and sixties. I still have four of them that I built back in that
> era.
>
> My parents and many members of my extended family were farmers. They
> would do a lot of their own blacksmithing from necessity and, on visits
> to relatives farms in my youth, became fascinated with the process. My
> parents saw the writing on the wall for the future of farming in this
> country and sold the farm before I was born. They refused to allow me to
> take that path and, in hindsight, I see that they had great vision. The
> farms of today aren't the same as they were when I was young. They are
> now mostly mechanised and employ contractors to do various seasonal
> tasks such as shearing, planting, harvesting and the like. Very few
> people live and work on farms these days.
>
> I instead grew up in the city and undertook a career as a public
> servant. Now, 57 years later, I still operate as a consultant.
>
> Krypsis

What do you do?
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article > ,
Krypsis > wrote:

> > I'd like that. :-) My focus in High School was in Ag and Music.
> > I did learn a lot about poultry processing...
> >
> > Which is why I always rinse my chickens thoroughly!
>
> A friend used to work in an abbatoir. He flat out refuses to eat
> sausages any more having seen the input into them. I don't intend to do
> any abbatoir tours!
>
> Krypsis

We toured both turkey and chicken processing plants in my High School Ag
class (FFA). It was "enlightening" but did not totally put me off
eating meat.

I do, however, prefer to make my own sausage... <g>
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
Doug Freyburger > wrote:

> Doing it with all steel and heat treatment it can seem like magic. But
> steel reinforced concrete seemed like magic to me until I spent a
> quarter in college grinding through the math in my statics and materials
> course. Ye gods that was a miserable course. But now i understand why
> tempered chocolate works because I understand why tempered steel works
> because I understand why steel reinforced concrete works. All the same
> principle.

Sounds like a lot of physics. ;-)
I get the general idea...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
Doug Freyburger > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> >
> > So how do you feel about recycled steel?
> >
> > Is it simply a matter of forging temperatures?
> >
> > I'm very much a believer in recycling whenever and wherever possible...
>
> Steel, asphalt, sugar. In every case it's easy to screw them up with
> the wrong temperature sequence. In every case they have to be melted
> completely and the impurities removed to refine (scrap steel is much
> easier to refine than iron ore, ground road is much easier to refine
> than crude oil, shattered sugar is much easier to refine than cane in
> the field).
>
> Get the melt and purify step right and the source no longer matters.
> Get the melt and purify step wrong and you've carried the old problems
> into the new product.

A simplification of a complex process? <g>
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
Krypsis > wrote:

> On 22/06/2010 7:10 AM, Mark Thorson wrote:
> > Krypsis wrote:
> >>
> >> Recycling steel is a wonderful concept. The problems arise because of
> >> the vast range of impurities in the recycled material. Even running the
> >> recycled steel through the smelting process doesn't guarantee that the
> >> iron or steel output has the correct alloying makeup. Probably this
> >> arises because of the exotic contaminants that are in the recycled steel
> >> as opposed to raw iron ore dug up from the ground.
> >
> > Like this one:
> >
> > http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm
>
> An extreme case of a recycling problem! ;-)
>
> Krypsis

Major "oops".
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

On 22/06/2010 9:16 AM, Omelet wrote:
> In m.au>,
> > wrote:
>
>>> Why thwarted? :-)
>>> There is a reason that "Smith" is a very common last name.
>>> Take it up as a hobby.
>>
>> I did, after a fashion. Used to build hot rods from the ground up in the
>> fifties and sixties. I still have four of them that I built back in that
>> era.
>>
>> My parents and many members of my extended family were farmers. They
>> would do a lot of their own blacksmithing from necessity and, on visits
>> to relatives farms in my youth, became fascinated with the process. My
>> parents saw the writing on the wall for the future of farming in this
>> country and sold the farm before I was born. They refused to allow me to
>> take that path and, in hindsight, I see that they had great vision. The
>> farms of today aren't the same as they were when I was young. They are
>> now mostly mechanised and employ contractors to do various seasonal
>> tasks such as shearing, planting, harvesting and the like. Very few
>> people live and work on farms these days.
>>
>> I instead grew up in the city and undertook a career as a public
>> servant. Now, 57 years later, I still operate as a consultant.
>>
>> Krypsis
>
> What do you do?

I now provide consultancy for the federal department where I was
employed for 55 years. That department is the Department of Immigration
and Ethnic Affairs (now Immigration and Citizenship).
http://www.immi.gov.au/

Krypsis

On Jun 21, 4:30*pm, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> *Cindy *wrote *on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT):
>
> >> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it may
> >> interest people to know that powdered aluminum is considered
> >> to be hazardous materials that is subject to spontaneous
> >> combustion.
> > Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and put
> > it into a
> > cardboard tube.
>
> It can be ignited but I really doubt about *spontaneous" combustion even
> if you could get it to burn. I know if you mix aluminum powder with iron
> oxide (rust) and ignite it, you get one of the hottest fires that exists
> and it will even burn below water. They call the mix Thermite.

I (deliberately) neglected to mention the short piece of cannon fuse.

I can neither confirm nor deny any actual experience with this
procedure,
even in my youth.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy wrote on Tue, 22 Jun 2010 05:46:54 -0700 (PDT):

> On Jun 21, 4:30 pm, "James Silverton"
> > wrote:
>> Cindy wrote on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT):
>>
> >>> While we are on the topic of the magic of metallurgy, it
> >>> may interest people to know that powdered aluminum is
> >>> considered to be hazardous materials that is subject to
> >>> spontaneous combustion.
> >> Yeah, but it's more fun if you mix it with an oxidizer and
> >> put it into a cardboard tube.
>>
>> It can be ignited but I really doubt about *spontaneous"
>> combustion even if you could get it to burn. I know if you
>> mix aluminum powder with iron oxide (rust) and ignite it, you
>> get one of the hottest fires that exists and it will even
>> burn below water. They call the mix Thermite.

> I (deliberately) neglected to mention the short piece of
> cannon fuse.

> I can neither confirm nor deny any actual experience with this
> procedure,
> even in my youth.

In 1852, Charles Dickens used Spontaneous Human Combustion to kill off a
character named Krook in his novel "Bleak House". However, that has
always seemed as unlikely as spontaneous combustion of aluminum.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article > ,
Krypsis > wrote:

> On 22/06/2010 9:16 AM, Omelet wrote:
> > In m.au>,
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>> Why thwarted? :-)
> >>> There is a reason that "Smith" is a very common last name.
> >>> Take it up as a hobby.
> >>
> >> I did, after a fashion. Used to build hot rods from the ground up in the
> >> fifties and sixties. I still have four of them that I built back in that
> >> era.
> >>
> >> My parents and many members of my extended family were farmers. They
> >> would do a lot of their own blacksmithing from necessity and, on visits
> >> to relatives farms in my youth, became fascinated with the process. My
> >> parents saw the writing on the wall for the future of farming in this
> >> country and sold the farm before I was born. They refused to allow me to
> >> take that path and, in hindsight, I see that they had great vision. The
> >> farms of today aren't the same as they were when I was young. They are
> >> now mostly mechanised and employ contractors to do various seasonal
> >> tasks such as shearing, planting, harvesting and the like. Very few
> >> people live and work on farms these days.
> >>
> >> I instead grew up in the city and undertook a career as a public
> >> servant. Now, 57 years later, I still operate as a consultant.
> >>
> >> Krypsis
> >
> > What do you do?
>
> I now provide consultancy for the federal department where I was
> employed for 55 years. That department is the Department of Immigration
> and Ethnic Affairs (now Immigration and Citizenship).
> http://www.immi.gov.au/
>
> Krypsis

Nice. :-) Do you like it?
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

On 23/06/2010 2:10 AM, Omelet wrote:
> In m.au>,
> > wrote:
>
>> On 22/06/2010 9:16 AM, Omelet wrote:
>>> In m.au>,
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Why thwarted? :-)
>>>>> There is a reason that "Smith" is a very common last name.
>>>>> Take it up as a hobby.
>>>>
>>>> I did, after a fashion. Used to build hot rods from the ground up in the
>>>> fifties and sixties. I still have four of them that I built back in that
>>>> era.
>>>>
>>>> My parents and many members of my extended family were farmers. They
>>>> would do a lot of their own blacksmithing from necessity and, on visits
>>>> to relatives farms in my youth, became fascinated with the process. My
>>>> parents saw the writing on the wall for the future of farming in this
>>>> country and sold the farm before I was born. They refused to allow me to
>>>> take that path and, in hindsight, I see that they had great vision. The
>>>> farms of today aren't the same as they were when I was young. They are
>>>> now mostly mechanised and employ contractors to do various seasonal
>>>> tasks such as shearing, planting, harvesting and the like. Very few
>>>> people live and work on farms these days.
>>>>
>>>> I instead grew up in the city and undertook a career as a public
>>>> servant. Now, 57 years later, I still operate as a consultant.
>>>>
>>>> Krypsis
>>>
>>> What do you do?
>>
>> I now provide consultancy for the federal department where I was
>> employed for 55 years. That department is the Department of Immigration
>> and Ethnic Affairs (now Immigration and Citizenship).
>> http://www.immi.gov.au/
>>
>> Krypsis
>
> Nice. :-) Do you like it?

Used to meet a lot of interesting people, travelled to interesting
places and was well paid to boot. Yeah, I liked it a lot but the past 30
years have been mighty stressful too. I wanted to retire 12 years ago at
60 but, after burning out a couple of understudies, I was made offers
that I couldn't refuse to stay a while. That went on for 10 years until
they finally found someone who could stay the distance in the job. The
consultancy is the best though. One third of the hours and none of the
responsibilities. ;-)

Should have done it years ago!!!!

Krypsis

In article >,
Krypsis > wrote:

> >> I now provide consultancy for the federal department where I was
> >> employed for 55 years. That department is the Department of Immigration
> >> and Ethnic Affairs (now Immigration and Citizenship).
> >> http://www.immi.gov.au/
> >>
> >> Krypsis
> >
> > Nice. :-) Do you like it?
>
> Used to meet a lot of interesting people, travelled to interesting
> places and was well paid to boot. Yeah, I liked it a lot but the past 30
> years have been mighty stressful too. I wanted to retire 12 years ago at
> 60 but, after burning out a couple of understudies, I was made offers
> that I couldn't refuse to stay a while. That went on for 10 years until
> they finally found someone who could stay the distance in the job. The
> consultancy is the best though. One third of the hours and none of the
> responsibilities. ;-)
>
> Should have done it years ago!!!!
>
> Krypsis

Better late than never. :-)
I am hoping to retire at 60 as well.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

Omelet wrote:
> Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>
>> Doing it with all steel and heat treatment it can seem like magic. But
>> steel reinforced concrete seemed like magic to me until I spent a
>> quarter in college grinding through the math in my statics and materials
>> course. Ye gods that was a miserable course. But now i understand why
>> tempered chocolate works because I understand why tempered steel works
>> because I understand why steel reinforced concrete works. All the same
>> principle.
>
> Sounds like a lot of physics. ;-)

Steel reenforced concrete arch bridge, katana samurai sword, chewy on
the outside creamy on the inside candy bar. It's all physics but at
least it's all the same physics. Even M&Ms use the same principle for
mechanical strength. Chocolate kisses need to have a foil wrapper but
M&Ms are tough enough to stay together in a bag.

I didn't read enough of this thread to get how it drifted from George
Foreman grills to tempering with heat to make chocolate sculptures
strong enough to stand under their own weight. Somehow the crock pot
spends most of its time out on the counter but the Foreman grill spends
most of its time in the shelves. Both are specialty items but that
tells me how much each gets used. Neither are used quite enough to have
a permanent shelf location like the nuke or mixer. Neither is used
quiet as often as the Tilia vacuum sealer. Both are used more often
than the dehydrator.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:43:52 -0400, George >
wrote:

> Two friends have them. The interesting part is how roomy they are. I
> have driven one of them frequently. You get some interesting reactions
> when you invite people to sit in it after they walk over and announce
> "it is so small". One was a guy who had to be 6'5" and way over 200 lbs.
> I pulled into a parking space and he struck up a conversation after he
> got out of a mammoth SUV and declared he needed the huge truck because
> he couldn't fit in anything else. He couldn't believe it when he sat in
> the drivers seat.

I think they are fine for city driving, but there's no way they are
safe at high speeds on the highway.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

In article >,
Doug Freyburger > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger > wrote:
> >
> >> Doing it with all steel and heat treatment it can seem like magic. But
> >> steel reinforced concrete seemed like magic to me until I spent a
> >> quarter in college grinding through the math in my statics and materials
> >> course. Ye gods that was a miserable course. But now i understand why
> >> tempered chocolate works because I understand why tempered steel works
> >> because I understand why steel reinforced concrete works. All the same
> >> principle.
> >
> > Sounds like a lot of physics. ;-)
>
> Steel reenforced concrete arch bridge, katana samurai sword, chewy on
> the outside creamy on the inside candy bar. It's all physics but at
> least it's all the same physics. Even M&Ms use the same principle for
> mechanical strength. Chocolate kisses need to have a foil wrapper but
> M&Ms are tough enough to stay together in a bag.
>
> I didn't read enough of this thread to get how it drifted from George
> Foreman grills to tempering with heat to make chocolate sculptures
> strong enough to stand under their own weight. Somehow the crock pot
> spends most of its time out on the counter but the Foreman grill spends
> most of its time in the shelves. Both are specialty items but that
> tells me how much each gets used. Neither are used quite enough to have
> a permanent shelf location like the nuke or mixer. Neither is used
> quiet as often as the Tilia vacuum sealer. Both are used more often
> than the dehydrator.

The crock pot and grill switch places as needed, as does the 18 qt.
table top roaster. The toaster, blender and convection oven all have a
place of honor. ;-)

The Tilia has not seen the light of day for a couple of years now.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
George > wrote:

> > I've been looking at "smart cars". I've talked to a few owners and they
> > are quite happy with them!
> > They are tiny, but well built with a racing-type crash cage built into
> > the body:
> >
> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHpUO-S0i8>
> >
> > Survivable, if you wear your seatbelt and don't disable the air bag.<g>
> >
> > Prices on them are very affordable too.
>
> Two friends have them. The interesting part is how roomy they are. I
> have driven one of them frequently. You get some interesting reactions
> when you invite people to sit in it after they walk over and announce
> "it is so small". One was a guy who had to be 6'5" and way over 200 lbs.
> I pulled into a parking space and he struck up a conversation after he
> got out of a mammoth SUV and declared he needed the huge truck because
> he couldn't fit in anything else. He couldn't believe it when he sat in
> the drivers seat.
>
> One of my friends who has one has a neighbor with a prosthetic leg. He
> also has a truck because he says he has difficulty getting in/out of
> cars. He couldn't believe it after my friend invited him to try the
> Smartcar.

How cool is that? They looked pretty roomy to me when I looked into the
front area.

>
> Also we live in a area where we get heavy snow. The engine is rear
> mounted and they perform really well in snow. Really debunks the idea
> the idea that you have to have a fluffed up 4WD truck.

Smart engineering. I'm guessing the weight of the engine helps with
ballast. Rear wheel drive I presume? I'd like to see them come in 4
wheel.

>
> Why is disappointing is all of the advertising lately from Government
> Motors on why we need to buy fluffed up trucks.

That's to sell all those that have been made!
And not hurt oil stocks...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:43:52 -0400, George >
> wrote:
>
> > Two friends have them. The interesting part is how roomy they are. I
> > have driven one of them frequently. You get some interesting reactions
> > when you invite people to sit in it after they walk over and announce
> > "it is so small". One was a guy who had to be 6'5" and way over 200 lbs.
> > I pulled into a parking space and he struck up a conversation after he
> > got out of a mammoth SUV and declared he needed the huge truck because
> > he couldn't fit in anything else. He couldn't believe it when he sat in
> > the drivers seat.
>
> I think they are fine for city driving, but there's no way they are
> safe at high speeds on the highway.

Why not?
Have you watched the crash videos?
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

sf wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:43:52 -0400, George >
> wrote:
>
>> Two friends have them. The interesting part is how roomy they are. I
>> have driven one of them frequently. You get some interesting reactions
>> when you invite people to sit in it after they walk over and announce
>> "it is so small". One was a guy who had to be 6'5" and way over 200 lbs.
>> I pulled into a parking space and he struck up a conversation after he
>> got out of a mammoth SUV and declared he needed the huge truck because
>> he couldn't fit in anything else. He couldn't believe it when he sat in
>> the drivers seat.
>
> I think they are fine for city driving, but there's no way they are
> safe at high speeds on the highway.


A few years ago I arranged for a car rental to be picked up in Germany.
I was disappointed to see that it was a Rabbit and thought it would be
way to small for us to be comfortable in. Au contraire. It was easy to
get in and out of an was one of the most comfortable cars I that I haev
every driven.

As for the Smart cars..... I have seen the crash test videos and it is
amazing how well they stand up to high speed crashes. They don't seem to
have the energy absorbing crinkling that some cars have, but I don't
think you need to worry about it imploding on impact.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:15:08 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

> The Tilia has not seen the light of day for a couple of years now.

I guess that means you don't use it. Why did you give it up?

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:18:55 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

> Why not?
> Have you watched the crash videos?

Yes. The car posted previously was destroyed and the Smart Car
bounced around like a ball in both the videos I watched. I would
*not* want to be inside one whether or not the "cage" survived.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:28:21 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> As for the Smart cars..... I have seen the crash test videos and it is
> amazing how well they stand up to high speed crashes. They don't seem to
> have the energy absorbing crinkling that some cars have, but I don't
> think you need to worry about it imploding on impact.

If you want to go for distance on the rebound, be my guest. I'll
stick with heavier cars for freeway driving. If all the other cars on
the road were just as small, I'd feel differently - but they aren't.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

In article >,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> sf wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:43:52 -0400, George >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Two friends have them. The interesting part is how roomy they are. I
> >> have driven one of them frequently. You get some interesting reactions
> >> when you invite people to sit in it after they walk over and announce
> >> "it is so small". One was a guy who had to be 6'5" and way over 200 lbs.
> >> I pulled into a parking space and he struck up a conversation after he
> >> got out of a mammoth SUV and declared he needed the huge truck because
> >> he couldn't fit in anything else. He couldn't believe it when he sat in
> >> the drivers seat.
> >
> > I think they are fine for city driving, but there's no way they are
> > safe at high speeds on the highway.
>
>
> A few years ago I arranged for a car rental to be picked up in Germany.
> I was disappointed to see that it was a Rabbit and thought it would be
> way to small for us to be comfortable in. Au contraire. It was easy to
> get in and out of an was one of the most comfortable cars I that I haev
> every driven.
>
> As for the Smart cars..... I have seen the crash test videos and it is
> amazing how well they stand up to high speed crashes. They don't seem to
> have the energy absorbing crinkling that some cars have, but I don't
> think you need to worry about it imploding on impact.

Due to their size, the manufacturers decided it would be a good idea to
build a crash cage into the body. They are similar to ones used in race
cars.

They are quite safe actually!
Probably safer than many SUV's that fold up around you. :-(
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine