Dave Smith wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> In one case, the cop had left our inspection station to check out a car
> that had run out of gas on a bridge about 15 miles down the road. He
> stopped behind the car with his lights flashing. He was parked on the
> upward slope of the overpass, so his lights would have been visible for
> miles. A truck ran right over his cruiser and he was killed.
>
> In the second case, the cop was assisting another officer at a roadside
> traffic stop. He was standing outside the driver's window and was
> clipped by a passing car.... hit and run. It turned out to be an old man
> who didn't know he had hit anything.
>
> On the third case, the cop was on paid duty doing speed enforcement in a
> construction zone. He was parked on the grass to the right of the paved
> and the gravel shoulder. There are several coincidences here. I had
> just met that cop a few days earlier and he had just moved into a house
> on the next road, directly behind my house. The other is that a former
> co-worker witnessed the whole thing. The truck was driving along in the
> left of two lanes. He moved from the left lane to the right, across the
> paved should, the gravel shoulder and right over top of the cruiser. He
> had fallen asleep at the wheel.....at 8 am.
>
> The fact is that a lot of cops are killed by cars on traffic stops.
> They use lights and flashers to alert people to their presence, but the
> lights can be more of a distraction. The lights also seem to be a lure
> for drunks. Sometimes the cops just get complacent and stand too close
> to the edge of the road, or step out in front of traffic. You can't be
> too careful because there are too many distracted drivers. They day
> dream, read, curl their hair, apply makeup, talk on cell phones, send
> text messages etc.

Recently, I read something very interesting about a topic called "the
moth effect", but I forget where so I can't cite the relevant article.
IIRC, "the moth effect" means that somehow some folks (drivers) are
drawn to disasters like moths are to natural and (especially) artificial
lights at night. The effect was likened to 'rubber-necking' and how a
motor vehicle driver may unintentionally allow their vehicle to drift
away from the lane when looking at and paying attention to roadside
distractions. Who hasn't BTDT to some degree, thankfully without any
mishap!!?????

Sky

--
Ultra Ultimate Kitchen Rule - Use the Timer!
Ultimate Kitchen Rule -- Cook's Choice!!

Sky wrote:

> Recently, I read something very interesting about a topic called "the
> moth effect", but I forget where so I can't cite the relevant article.
> IIRC, "the moth effect" means that somehow some folks (drivers) are
> drawn to disasters like moths are to natural and (especially) artificial
> lights at night. The effect was likened to 'rubber-necking' and how a
> motor vehicle driver may unintentionally allow their vehicle to drift
> away from the lane when looking at and paying attention to roadside
> distractions. Who hasn't BTDT to some degree, thankfully without any
> mishap!!?????


We were advised about that moth effect when trained about the use of our
flashing red lights at the side of the road. It seems that they attract
drunks. They can't help but stare at the lights and then end up driving
into what they are looking at.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:26:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> wrote:

> On 6/25/2010 10:39 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> > J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >>> Sounds reasonable. I'm a little confused by this whole thing, and have
> >>> been waiting for somebody to post a URL with the facts. What's this
> >>> "berm" thing? The California Driver Handbook does not have the word in
> >>> it. My dictionary does, but I have trouble relating those definitions
> >>> to a major freeway in Southern California.
> >>
> >> Colloquially it is the shoulder of the road, or on modern US
> >> controlled-access highways the "breakdown lane".
> >
> > Having worked for the government department responsible for building and
> > maintaining highways I can deal you that it is called the shoulder.
> > There are paved shoulders and gravel shoulders. A berm is either a
> > section of ground that has been elevated, and can be a man made berm
> > either as a sound barrier or just a place to dump earth that has been
> > removed from another location or as a sound barrier. It is also the
> > elevated earth next to the shoulder which can be from natural
> > development or an accumulation of winter sand spreading or bad grading.
> > Road graders usually trim them back to to prevent ponding and to improve
> > drainage.
>
> Google "colloquially".
>

You have been told twice that "shoulder" is not a colloquial term in
California.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:11:41 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> We were advised about that moth effect when trained about the use of our
> flashing red lights at the side of the road. It seems that they attract
> drunks. They can't help but stare at the lights and then end up driving
> into what they are looking at.

When I took driver's ed (age 16), my teacher said that sometimes
drunks were the "straightest" drivers on the road. Slow, but
straight... because they were focused on the lines: black, white,
black, white etc.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:37:36 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> wrote:

> You are correct. You will never serve on a jury for this offense if you
> answer honestly in voir dire.

Good.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

On 6/25/2010 8:18 PM, sf wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:26:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> On 6/25/2010 10:39 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Sounds reasonable. I'm a little confused by this whole thing, and have
>>>>> been waiting for somebody to post a URL with the facts. What's this
>>>>> "berm" thing? The California Driver Handbook does not have the word in
>>>>> it. My dictionary does, but I have trouble relating those definitions
>>>>> to a major freeway in Southern California.
>>>>
>>>> Colloquially it is the shoulder of the road, or on modern US
>>>> controlled-access highways the "breakdown lane".
>>>
>>> Having worked for the government department responsible for building and
>>> maintaining highways I can deal you that it is called the shoulder.
>>> There are paved shoulders and gravel shoulders. A berm is either a
>>> section of ground that has been elevated, and can be a man made berm
>>> either as a sound barrier or just a place to dump earth that has been
>>> removed from another location or as a sound barrier. It is also the
>>> elevated earth next to the shoulder which can be from natural
>>> development or an accumulation of winter sand spreading or bad grading.
>>> Road graders usually trim them back to to prevent ponding and to improve
>>> drainage.
>>
>> Google "colloquially".
>>
>
> You have been told twice that "shoulder" is not a colloquial term in
> California.

The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay attention.

On 6/25/2010 8:11 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> Sky wrote:
>
>> Recently, I read something very interesting about a topic called "the
>> moth effect", but I forget where so I can't cite the relevant article.
>> IIRC, "the moth effect" means that somehow some folks (drivers) are
>> drawn to disasters like moths are to natural and (especially) artificial
>> lights at night. The effect was likened to 'rubber-necking' and how a
>> motor vehicle driver may unintentionally allow their vehicle to drift
>> away from the lane when looking at and paying attention to roadside
>> distractions. Who hasn't BTDT to some degree, thankfully without any
>> mishap!!?????
>
>
> We were advised about that moth effect when trained about the use of our
> flashing red lights at the side of the road. It seems that they attract
> drunks. They can't help but stare at the lights and then end up driving
> into what they are looking at.

If you take the MSF course you should learn that a motorcycle tends to
go where you're looking. If you don't want to crash into the back of a
police cruiser don't stare at the pretty lights.

The same seems to be true of cars.

"J. Clarke" > wrote
> If you take the MSF course you should learn that a motorcycle tends to go
> where you're looking. If you don't want to crash into the back of a
> police cruiser don't stare at the pretty lights.
>
> The same seems to be true of cars.
>

Very true. People tend to look at what they may crash into and they do.
Instead, look at where you want to stop.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:04:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> wrote:

> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay attention.

I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
say can change that.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

J. Clarke wrote:

>> You have been told twice that "shoulder" is not a colloquial term in
>> California.
>
> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
> attention.

I was the only one to come up with a cite for the incident, and the
article said that the officer was hit by a car driving on the
"shoulder". It was Lew who said in the OP that the car was on the berm.
Perhaps Lew used the wrong term, or the report he read did.

sf wrote:

> When I took driver's ed (age 16), my teacher said that sometimes
> drunks were the "straightest" drivers on the road. Slow, but
> straight... because they were focused on the lines: black, white,
> black, white etc.
>
yeah but the cops notice'em cause they're only going 18 mph so as to
drive "straight" LOL

On 6/26/2010 10:29 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:04:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay attention.
>
> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
> say can change that.

Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the
"berm" you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the
rest of us will figure out what she actually did.
>

On 6/26/2010 7:42 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" > wrote
>> If you take the MSF course you should learn that a motorcycle tends to
>> go where you're looking. If you don't want to crash into the back of a
>> police cruiser don't stare at the pretty lights.
>>
>> The same seems to be true of cars.
>>
>
> Very true. People tend to look at what they may crash into and they do.
> Instead, look at where you want to stop.

I just had a notion for an experiment. Put the light bar on a pole that
can extend and rotate, so when the cruiser stops, lift the light bar up
above the traffic lane high enough that trucks won't hit it. Do that
for half your police fleet, and use the regular ones for the other, and
at the end of a year see which has had more rear-enders while stopped on
the side of the road.

J. Clarke wrote:

>>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
>>> attention.
>>
>> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
>> say can change that.
>
> Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the "berm"
> you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the rest of us
> will figure out what she actually did.

The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
shoulder?

Bob

On 6/27/2010 12:53 PM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
>>>> attention.
>>>
>>> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
>>> say can change that.
>>
>> Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the "berm"
>> you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the rest of us
>> will figure out what she actually did.
>
> The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
> is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
> stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
> shoulder?

In colloquial usage, quite possibly. Being pedantic about the meanings
of words is often an obstacle to communication.

"J. Clarke" wrote:
>
> On 6/27/2010 12:53 PM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
> >
> > The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
> > is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
> > stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
> > shoulder?
>
> In colloquial usage, quite possibly. Being pedantic about the meanings
> of words is often an obstacle to communication.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you
don't -- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice
knock-down argument for you!'"

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument',"
Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a
scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to
mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make
words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be
master -- that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a
minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper,
some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the
proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but
not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot!
Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:53:20 -0700, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

>J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
>>>> attention.
>>>
>>> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
>>> say can change that.
>>
>> Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the "berm"
>> you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the rest of us
>> will figure out what she actually did.
>
>The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
>is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
>stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
>shoulder?

means she's curious... about bisexuality.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:02:27 -0700, Mark Thorson >
wrote:

>"J. Clarke" wrote:
>>
>> On 6/27/2010 12:53 PM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
>> >
>> > The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
>> > is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
>> > stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
>> > shoulder?
>>
>> In colloquial usage, quite possibly. Being pedantic about the meanings
>> of words is often an obstacle to communication.
>
>"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
>
>Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you
>don't -- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice
>knock-down argument for you!'"
>
>"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument',"
>Alice objected.
>
>"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a
>scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to
>mean -- neither more nor less."
>
>"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make
>words mean so many different things."
>
>"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be
>master -- that's all."
>
>Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a
>minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper,
>some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the
>proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but
>not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot!
>Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

You saved my post... you pecksniffian!

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 6/26/2010 10:29 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:04:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
>>> attention.
>>
>> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
>> say can change that.
>
> Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the
> "berm" you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the
> rest of us will figure out what she actually did.
>>
>
I be wondering what the heck the kid is doing over on the berm and that
she should have pulled over onto the shoulder.

In article >,
"Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> >>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay
> >>> attention.
> >>
> >> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
> >> say can change that.
> >
> > Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the "berm"
> > you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the rest of us
> > will figure out what she actually did.
>
> The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
> is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
> stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
> shoulder?

For some values of skirt?

:-)

From my dictionary:

skirt

[deleted a bunch]

an edge, border,

verb [ trans. ]

€ be situated along or around the edge of : the fields that skirted the
highway were full of cattle.

[deleted more]

Thesaurus

skirt

[deleted more yet]

2 the fields that skirt the highway border, edge, flank, line, lie
alongside.

[end dictionary quote]

pretty weak, huh?

Well, let's try this one:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/berm

berm (bûrm)
n.

In article >,
"J. Clarke" > wrote:

> On 6/27/2010 12:53 PM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> > The fact that the meaning can be deciphered doesn't mean that the expression
> > is correct. If the hypothetical teenager said her car broke down and she
> > stopped on the skirt, does that mean "skirt" is now synonymous with
> > shoulder?
>
> In colloquial usage, quite possibly. Being pedantic about the meanings
> of words is often an obstacle to communication.

Well, I can't deny that I like being a pedant on this group sometimes!

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On 6/27/2010 9:44 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Subject
>
> It's happened again.
>
> Today, a CHP officer was hit and killed during a traffic stop in the
> high desert near Barstow, CA, while on the interstate shoulder.
>
> That's three (3) traffic officers killed in the last two (2) weeks
> here in SoCal.

And people talk about how drivers from MA are incompetent.

Dan Abel quoted:
>
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/berm
>
> berm (bûrm)
>
> b. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, & West Virginia The shoulder of a road.

So the incident happened in California and the report quoted used the
word shoulder which is correct usage in California. I take it the
person who brought up the sub-topic is in/from one of those states so
they made the word substitution?

I have recipes for shoulder. Who has recipes for berm? Would
chateaubriand count as a berm recipe? Maybe chowder in one of those
bread loaf bowls.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:47:24 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> On 6/26/2010 10:29 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:04:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> The word at issue is not "shoulder", it is "berm". Do try to pay attention.
>>
>> I am paying attention. Berm is the wrong word, period. Nothing you
>> say can change that.
>
> Fine, when some teenager her car broke down and she stopped on the
> "berm" you go on thinking she's talking about a pile of dirt, and the
> rest of us will figure out what she actually did.
>>

it seems to be a regionalism:
berm (bûrm)
n.

Doug wrote:

> I have recipes for shoulder. Who has recipes for berm? Would
> chateaubriand count as a berm recipe? Maybe chowder in one of those
> bread loaf bowls.

I have recipes for bream. Would that be okay?

Bob