Hi all. Over the past few months, I'm beginning to come to terms with my pre-
diabetes and have arrived at a number of troubling realizations. As I survey
many of the usenet diabetes support groups, I find few foodies or people for
whom food takes on largely aesthetic and cultural meanings. These folks seem to
eat on the basis of science and health. In one exchange, I found myself talking
to someone who never eats socially, who never goes to gatherings with the
express purpose of sharing food. Being totally blind, food is a huge source of
pleasure and human connection in my life.

How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I enjoy as
a foodie? How do many of you strike this balance? If you're low-carbing and
your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
along without feeling excluded? Also, how do the aesthetics of portion control,
weighing and measuring intersect in your lives with spontaneity and sheer
pleasure in food? I look forward to some lively discussions.

Thanks,
Orlando

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 03:45:35 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol
> wrote:

>Hi all. Over the past few months, I'm beginning to come to terms with my pre-
>diabetes and have arrived at a number of troubling realizations. As I survey
>many of the usenet diabetes support groups, I find few foodies or people for
>whom food takes on largely aesthetic and cultural meanings. These folks seem to
>eat on the basis of science and health.

Sounds a little like myself. For many years my priority was nutrition
and health. Nowadays I combine the former with what I guess you could
call 'foodie' food It can be done, although maybe not for
everything. For example, I made Sauerbraten the other night for the
g/f's birthday - nothing 'bad' in there for either of us (she is also
gluten/grain sensitive).

I'm sensitive to most grains and avoid them as much as possible (with
the occasional transgression). I also low carb - or at least I did for
years - these days I find no need to be obsessive about it. My
lifestyle in recent years seems to be working well for me and now I
find I can get away with eating potatoes, for example. But I still try
to limit such things to a degree.

> In one exchange, I found myself talking
>to someone who never eats socially, who never goes to gatherings with the
>express purpose of sharing food. Being totally blind, food is a huge source of
>pleasure and human connection in my life.
>
>How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I enjoy as
>a foodie?

I find that I can manage to modify most recipes enough to make them
suitable for my dietary needs without really compromising the finished
dish.

>How do many of you strike this balance? If you're low-carbing and
>your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
>along without feeling excluded?

In such a case, I guess if you cannot eat something 'good' for you -
you either have to give it a miss or simply eat those dim sums or
pastries. Sorry I don't have a solution for this one :\

>Also, how do the aesthetics of portion control,
>weighing and measuring intersect in your lives with spontaneity and sheer
>pleasure in food? I look forward to some lively discussions.

I don't find portion control is an issue for me in any way.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hi all. Over the past few months, I'm beginning to come to terms with my
> pre-
> diabetes and have arrived at a number of troubling realizations. As I
> survey
> many of the usenet diabetes support groups, I find few foodies or people
> for
> whom food takes on largely aesthetic and cultural meanings. These folks
> seem to
> eat on the basis of science and health. In one exchange, I found myself
> talking
> to someone who never eats socially, who never goes to gatherings with the
> express purpose of sharing food. Being totally blind, food is a huge
> source of
> pleasure and human connection in my life.
>
> How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I
> enjoy as
> a foodie?

Strive for moderation - overindulgence will ultimately kill you.

How do many of you strike this balance?

If you hold back nothing there is nothing to look forward to. Understand
the difference between hunger & appetite.




If you're low-carbing and
> your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
> along without feeling excluded?

Don't exclude yourself go along and enjoy just don't do it every day. No
diet is absolute,. Keep in mind a slip, is not the ruination of your diet.
eat slower, listen more to your friends. The main purpose in that situation
is not the food it's the friendship. Just shift your focus. easliy said but
not easily done.



Also, how do the aesthetics of portion control,
> weighing and measuring intersect in your lives with spontaneity and sheer
> pleasure in food?

Hunger Vs appetite - have a slice of pie not the whole damn pie.

Dimitri

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote

> Hi all. Over the past few months, I'm beginning to come to terms with my
> pre-
> diabetes and have arrived at a number of troubling realizations. As I
> survey

Any medically mandated diet shift is troublesome at the start.

> many of the usenet diabetes support groups, I find few foodies or people
> for
> whom food takes on largely aesthetic and cultural meanings. These folks
> seem to
> eat on the basis of science and health. In one exchange, I found myself
> talking

At one time I checked such groups and found the adjustment of the set I was
in, was to down-play food. There are surely groups that support foodies but
I didn't find any. Here however, you will find us.

> to someone who never eats socially, who never goes to gatherings with the
> express purpose of sharing food. Being totally blind, food is a huge
> source of
> pleasure and human connection in my life.

Then you need to preserve that. Your friends share a like desire for good
food with the company. I'm part of a similar group (it's on Fidonet, not
usenet) and several are diabetics. Well controlled diabetics who love
cooking and sharing food.

> How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I
> enjoy as
> a foodie? How do many of you strike this balance?

Over *time* is the answer. In my cildhood I had to eat pretty much a
diabetic-like diet. Hypoglycemia (a variation, genetic amd tracked for 5
generations, was born with it). Once I moved out from home, I had to learn
carefully *why* Mom only fed us certain things. Mom's a *wonderful person
(just turned 80) but not really a foodie.

That particular adaption was easy as I went back to childhood foods then
slowly expanded to add more foods. I set a task to try 1 'new to me' thing
each trip to the grocery store. It might be a new spice, or a veggie I'd
never had. It was really easy at the start because I'd only experienced 4
types of canned soups, had never had cabbage or squash (winter or summer).
The only pork I had ever had was porkchops (fried to death and
toothbreakingly hard) and bacon. Oh wait, she got sausages once in a blue
moon (grin).

Now, you've not had so limited of a set, but there are still going to be
oodles of things you've never tried. You should get a glocose monitor if
you havent already. The reason is you need to know what spikes *you* which
may not be the same as what spikes another. The OP may think they have it
all down pat and their advice is for you as well but that's not true. Do
watch for that. Just understand that because *they* can't handle 1/2 cup
rice, doesn't mean *you* can't. Glycemic indexes are just a guideline.
Your own testing will show you where and what to portion control.

You've got the obvious stuff. Watch the pastas and breads. Have small
portions then test.

I later found I have to cut fats and cholestrols because I run very high
there so I had to adjust my eating. I did this over time, finding things I
liked in the new items that replaced ones I shouldn't eat as much of. I am
diet controlled for that now with testing every 6 months and eye-poppingly
high on the 'good cholestrol'.

Then, the hubby (who eats same meals happily) was found to need a salt
reduced diet. AGG! We'd used salt as a flavor adjustment to a low sugar
low fat diet for years. Again, it took *time* but we worked at it bit by
bit and still are adjusting, finding new items that are reduced sodium that
we *like*.

> If you're low-carbing and
> your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
> along without feeling excluded? Also, how do the aesthetics of portion
> control,
> weighing and measuring intersect in your lives with spontaneity and sheer
> pleasure in food? I look forward to some lively discussions.

Well, what my friends and I do, if we go out (instead of cooking in) is find
a good spot that has something for all. A place that has dim sum will have
other things such as garlic fried green beans with pork. The french pastry
place may be a little harder but I've seen many have olive and cheese plates
as appetizers.

Think outside the box. If they have appetizers you can have, enjoy and
share those about! Above all, try new things that are on the 'on list' for
you. Like, I keep meaning to try an artichoke. It sounds right up my
alley!

Favorite comfort food? LOL! Japanese eggplant, washed and just sliced long
then brushed with olive oil, bit of black pepper and (ok shoot me!) bacos.
Bake at 350 until it's just starting to brown. Grin, allowable for both of
us and you can use something better than bacos if you want to. Don BTW
doesnt get the bacos (unless he steals on off mine or Charlotte's) but gets
MS Dash and crumbled dried crunchy chile spiced baby shrimps.

I've got tons of eggplant recipes using 'Japanese eggplant' (the long thin
asian ones which need no peeling and are not bitter).

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
> How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I enjoy as
> a foodie? How do many of you strike this balance? If you're low-carbing and
> your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
> along without feeling excluded?

I'm wheat intolerant so I consistantly avoid wheat. I'm inconsistant
about being a low carber. I find a lot more foodies among low carbers
than among low fatters. Little wonder as fat makes food taste better.

On my own I go for sauces and herbs on my veggies, cooking the same base
ingredients with many different methods and flavorings. Books on low
carb stress how luxurious the foods are and how easy portion control is
when you have neither carb cravings nor fat cravings.

Most restaurants have low carb items so I don't have troubles eating at
meals. Any one place may get boring (Olive Garden's picata again) but
rotating places handles that.

At Sim Sum I have the fried greens, the root veggie patties they call
Chinese turnip (high carb, low glycemic load) and dishes like shiu mai
that are mostly meat and veggies with a small rice wrapper.

A pastrie place? Ask if they have a soup or if they have a menu of
meals or eat before going to the desert place. Some places are so
specialized in high carb foods the answer is to work outside of their
main products or just avoid the place.

cshenk > wrote:
>At one time I checked such groups and found the adjustment of the set I was
>in, was to down-play food. There are surely groups that support foodies but
>I didn't find any. Here however, you will find us.

I'm so very happy that I've brought this up right now because I really need
foodie support from people who understand that a life without culinary pleasure
is unacceptable. Many of these people openly admit that they no longer eat for
pleasure. Even when I'm on the strictest phase of South Beach, I never
relinquish my pleasure in food; I just switch the objects of my affection. I
luxuriate in ricotta-based desserts, eggplant and bean dips with raw green
peppers, grilled meat or seafood, etc. But, I just can't relate to people who
think I should be perfectly prepared to give up all problematic foods without
even mourning them.

>Then you need to preserve that. Your friends share a like desire for good
>food with the company. I'm part of a similar group (it's on Fidonet, not
>usenet) and several are diabetics. Well controlled diabetics who love
>cooking and sharing food.

I wish I were part of a formalized group like that. (Shout out to anyone in the
Philadelphia area who wants to eat sensibly and socially with me.)

>Now, you've not had so limited of a set, but there are still going to be
>oodles of things you've never tried. You should get a glocose monitor if
>you havent already. The reason is you need to know what spikes *you* which
>may not be the same as what spikes another. The OP may think they have it
>all down pat and their advice is for you as well but that's not true. Do
>watch for that. Just understand that because *they* can't handle 1/2 cup
>rice, doesn't mean *you* can't. Glycemic indexes are just a guideline.
>Your own testing will show you where and what to portion control.

I'm very resistant to pricking my fingers multiple times a day and my doctor
hasn't yet mandated testing. So, I'm just assuming I can't eat carbs often and
getting used to that for now.

>You've got the obvious stuff. Watch the pastas and breads. Have small
>portions then test.

I like your common sense approach.

>Well, what my friends and I do, if we go out (instead of cooking in) is find
>a good spot that has something for all. A place that has dim sum will have
>other things such as garlic fried green beans with pork.

Damn straight! And eggplant stuffed with shrimp, bean curd rolls, salads,
turnip cakes, steamed meatballs, cold beef tendon, etc.

>The french pastry place may be a little harder but I've seen many have olive
and cheese plates as appetizers.

Of course, but I'll probably want some pain au chocolat.

>Think outside the box. If they have appetizers you can have, enjoy and
>share those about! Above all, try new things that are on the 'on list' for
>you. Like, I keep meaning to try an artichoke. It sounds right up my
>alley!

Too many leaves and not enough flesh.

>Favorite comfort food? LOL! Japanese eggplant, washed and just sliced long
>then brushed with olive oil, bit of black pepper and (ok shoot me!) bacos.
>Bake at 350 until it's just starting to brown. Grin, allowable for both of
>us and you can use something better than bacos if you want to. Don BTW
>doesnt get the bacos (unless he steals on off mine or Charlotte's) but gets
>MS Dash and crumbled dried crunchy chile spiced baby shrimps.

Yumm! I'd probably use whole wheat bread crumbs or panko.

>I've got tons of eggplant recipes using 'Japanese eggplant' (the long thin
>asian ones which need no peeling and are not bitter).

I love any kind of eggplant, anywhere, any time. So, feel free to email me your
recipes.

Thanks a lot,
Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Hi all. Over the past few months, I'm beginning to come to terms with my pre-
> diabetes and have arrived at a number of troubling realizations. As I survey
> many of the usenet diabetes support groups, I find few foodies or people for
> whom food takes on largely aesthetic and cultural meanings. These folks seem to
> eat on the basis of science and health. In one exchange, I found myself talking
> to someone who never eats socially, who never goes to gatherings with the
> express purpose of sharing food. Being totally blind, food is a huge source of
> pleasure and human connection in my life.


That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
pummeled.

> How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I enjoy as
> a foodie? How do many of you strike this balance? If you're low-carbing and
> your friends want to go out for dim sum or French pastries, how do you tag
> along without feeling excluded? Also, how do the aesthetics of portion control,
> weighing and measuring intersect in your lives with spontaneity and sheer
> pleasure in food? I look forward to some lively discussions.

If they are truly friends, they might consider having brunch at a place
where everything isn't loaded with carbs, but if that's the only place
you can go to, order stir-fried vegetables and forgo the dim sum. If you
can't do that, take the fillings out of the dumplings and leave the
dumpling stuff on the plate. There is no work-around for French pastry
unless it's to eat 1/4 of one piece and drink a whole lot of coffee to
be social. I have found that putting a pastry on a plate and cutting it
into small pieces with a knife makes it easier to control portions.

My DH is diabetic and we are very social people. We eat out with friends
all the time and have learned some tricks. He always asks if he can
substitute vegetables or a small salad for the rice, potato, pasta, etc.
Even Mexican restaurants will have steamed veggies. If the only food
is breaded and fried, he takes off the breading. I will order dessert
and he will have a taste.

We love to cruise and he often wants to sample something on the menu
that a whole portion of would be dangerous so we do "taste and waste"
He learned it from me as I don't finish deserts, I just taste them.

Yes, there are people in the world who are starving, but they are no
where near where we are wasting food. Sending a check to the local food
bank eases our conscience.

Good luck
--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>pummeled.

I cannot tell a lie, you figured it out. But, there are others like her on that
newsgroup, people who believe that low blood glucose numbers should be
maintained at all times and all costs. I couldn't even gush about the insanely
delicious Jamaican graduation party feast I attended last Sunday because I
gorged on carbs and they condemned me for that. Thing is, I don't gorge that
way but once every few months, and I'm careful to surround such meals with low-
carb food and plenty of water.

>If they are truly friends, they might consider having brunch at a place
>where everything isn't loaded with carbs, but if that's the only place
>you can go to, order stir-fried vegetables and forgo the dim sum. If you
>can't do that, take the fillings out of the dumplings and leave the
>dumpling stuff on the plate.

Honestly, one dim sum meal will not damage me permanently. Diabetes management
is all about what one does chronically. Anyone who isn't type 1 or in danger of
going hypoglycemic can enjoy some occasional indulgences.

>There is no work-around for French pastry
>unless it's to eat 1/4 of one piece and drink a whole lot of coffee to
>be social. I have found that putting a pastry on a plate and cutting it
>into small pieces with a knife makes it easier to control portions.

I just used that as an example. I haven't found any really awesome French
bakeries in Philly anyway.

>My DH is diabetic and we are very social people. We eat out with friends
>all the time and have learned some tricks. He always asks if he can
>substitute vegetables or a small salad for the rice, potato, pasta, etc.
> Even Mexican restaurants will have steamed veggies. If the only food
>is breaded and fried, he takes off the breading. I will order dessert
>and he will have a taste.

Is his diabetes so advanced that some breading will severely compromise his
health? I don't want to become that obsessed with carbohydrate avoidance in
situations where it makes no sense to do so.

>We love to cruise and he often wants to sample something on the menu
>that a whole portion of would be dangerous so we do "taste and waste"
>He learned it from me as I don't finish deserts, I just taste them.

I never waste; I share. *grin*

>Yes, there are people in the world who are starving, but they are no
>where near where we are wasting food. Sending a check to the local food
>bank eases our conscience.

You could also give it away or go out with more people who can share portions
with you.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote
> cshenk wrote:

>>At one time I checked such groups and found the adjustment of the set I
>>was
>>in, was to down-play food. There are surely groups that support foodies
>>but
>>I didn't find any. Here however, you will find us.
>
> I'm so very happy that I've brought this up right now because I really
> need
> foodie support from people who understand that a life without culinary
> pleasure
> is unacceptable.

A sad group and I left the few I found because I was looking specifically
for good recipes even if I needed to adjust them for me. I instead went on
my own culinary searches and found lots of things over time. Perhaps I can
peel out some of the better ones for you to look over later.

> Even when I'm on the strictest phase of South Beach, I never
> relinquish my pleasure in food; I just switch the objects of my affection.
> I

Thats the way to do it. You have the skill set, now use it gently over
time.

>>Then you need to preserve that. Your friends share a like desire for good
>>food with the company. I'm part of a similar group (it's on Fidonet, not
>>usenet) and several are diabetics. Well controlled diabetics who love
>>cooking and sharing food.
>
> I wish I were part of a formalized group like that. (Shout out to anyone
> in the
> Philadelphia area who wants to eat sensibly and socially with me.)

Well ours is electronic and we live all over the world, but at least once a
year as many of as can, gather in person for a 4-5 day long 'cook in'. This
past year, it was on my porch. Since we are a mixed bag of dietary needs,
we made sure that there were plenty of things various folks could eat, from
pork free (one doesnt do pork) to diabetic (several need that) to low sodium
(several again) to low carb for the dieters to high carb for the ones who
want it.

We started with one set *everyone* could eat. Live steamed blue crabs, cold
old bay boiled shrimp, deep fried chilled breaded squid (sounds odd but it
is delicious and a specialty of Don's), reduced sodium boiled peanuts (a
delicate low sodium soy and cayenne pepper makes it work). I had some sort
of veggies and some fruits too but forgot what. Lots of dipping sauces in
little bowls everywhere. That way no traveller had to cook and there was
enough all could find suitable. The following days were a blurr of 'stuff'
made by my fellow foodies and if some of it I couldn't eat much of, I could
still have a taste and go 'wow'.

If you have one, invite me! You need only a kitchen and the willingness to
let another use it. Umm, the others bring the food for cook in's but you'd
be expected to have basics in normal single house amounts for impromptu use.
Like a jar of mayo, a bit of mustard, black pepper, stuff you'd have
already. I'm close enough to come up for a weekend (Norfolk area, about 5
hours drive).

>>Now, you've not had so limited of a set, but there are still going to be
>>oodles of things you've never tried. You should get a glucose monitor if
>>you havent already. The reason is you need to know what spikes *you*
>>which
>>may not be the same as what spikes another.

> I'm very resistant to pricking my fingers multiple times a day and my
> doctor
> hasn't yet mandated testing. So, I'm just assuming I can't eat carbs often
> and
> getting used to that for now.

Ok, the new ones aren't like the old ones though. I've been diet controlled
so long, I don't use one either. I got to see a friend use them though on
some of my dishes (weekend neighbor cookouts). Last time, to see if he
spiked on a bean and bell pepper dish that tastes alot like baked beans in
sweetness but with no added sugar. He can handle the beans in portion
control but not the sugar such dishes normally have yet was pining for that
old sweet bean taste. He didn't spike so now makes the recipe better than I
do.

>>You've got the obvious stuff. Watch the pastas and breads. Have small
>>portions then test.

> I like your common sense approach.

Thats really all that is needed. I was a little mystified on how to get us
from a high salt low sugar, low fat, low cholestrol diet to shift to low (or
lower) salt but we did it. Not over night, but we did. Foodies who cook,
can adjust. Best recipe developed on that hunt? How to make traditional
salt boiled peanuts, in reduced sodium version *taste* the same and in this
case, even *better*.

>>Well, what my friends and I do, if we go out (instead of cooking in) is
>>find
>>a good spot that has something for all. A place that has dim sum will
>>have
>>other things such as garlic fried green beans with pork.
>
> Damn straight! And eggplant stuffed with shrimp, bean curd rolls, salads,
> turnip cakes, steamed meatballs, cold beef tendon, etc.

Exactly! I love the turnip cakes! Real good chance they have kamaboko on
steamed mustard greens with ginger or at least the ones here do.

>>The french pastry place may be a little harder but I've seen many have
>>olive
> and cheese plates as appetizers.
>
> Of course, but I'll probably want some pain au chocolat.

Grin, might be the one place you want to avoid then.

>>Think outside the box. If they have appetizers you can have, enjoy and
>>share those about! Above all, try new things that are on the 'on list'
>>for
>>you. Like, I keep meaning to try an artichoke. It sounds right up my
>>alley!

> Too many leaves and not enough flesh.

Might be, but I've never tried one. I found out that anything green and
meant to be green, suits me except some of the stronger flavored USA greens
like collards and beet greens.

>>Favorite comfort food? LOL! Japanese eggplant, washed and just sliced
>>long
>>then brushed with olive oil, bit of black pepper and (ok shoot me!) bacos.
>>Bake at 350 until it's just starting to brown. Grin, allowable for both
>>of
>>us and you can use something better than bacos if you want to. Don BTW
>>doesnt get the bacos (unless he steals on off mine or Charlotte's) but
>>gets
>>MS Dash and crumbled dried crunchy chile spiced baby shrimps.
>
> Yumm! I'd probably use whole wheat bread crumbs or panko.

Hey, a few crumbs are ok. Take a ritz cracker and mush it up in a baggie
and that will do 2 halves pretty well for 'crunch' topping appeal.

>>I've got tons of eggplant recipes using 'Japanese eggplant' (the long thin
>>asian ones which need no peeling and are not bitter).
>
> I love any kind of eggplant, anywhere, any time. So, feel free to email me
> your
> recipes.

Ah most of those are not exported just now but if your email isn't munged
(mine isn't) I can toss some! Mostly that's the one thing I just freehand
with no recipe. I'll put together a set of the more unique ones for you.

cshenk > wrote:
>A sad group and I left the few I found because I was looking specifically
>for good recipes even if I needed to adjust them for me. I instead went on
>my own culinary searches and found lots of things over time. Perhaps I can
>peel out some of the better ones for you to look over later.

Probably after I finish comprehensive exams next week.

>Thats the way to do it. You have the skill set, now use it gently over
>time.

I admit, those folks on ASD freaked me out. They want me to start testing right
now and to immediately swear off any food that spikes my levels.

>Well ours is electronic and we live all over the world, but at least once a
>year as many of as can, gather in person for a 4-5 day long 'cook in'. This
>past year, it was on my porch.

I wouldn't mind it being on mine next year.

>Since we are a mixed bag of dietary needs,
>we made sure that there were plenty of things various folks could eat, from
>pork free (one doesnt do pork) to diabetic (several need that) to low sodium
>(several again) to low carb for the dieters to high carb for the ones who
>want it.

That's the spirit!

>We started with one set *everyone* could eat. Live steamed blue crabs, cold
>old bay boiled shrimp, deep fried chilled breaded squid (sounds odd but it
>is delicious and a specialty of Don's), reduced sodium boiled peanuts (a
>delicate low sodium soy and cayenne pepper makes it work). I had some sort
>of veggies and some fruits too but forgot what. Lots of dipping sauces in
>little bowls everywhere. That way no traveller had to cook and there was
>enough all could find suitable.

That squid does sound odd indeed. How does it stay crunchy while cold? Oh, the
boiled peanuts appeal to me too.

>The following days were a blurr of 'stuff'
>made by my fellow foodies and if some of it I couldn't eat much of, I could
>still have a taste and go 'wow'.

Sometimes, that's exactly what I want to do.

>If you have one, invite me! You need only a kitchen and the willingness to
>let another use it. Umm, the others bring the food for cook in's but you'd
>be expected to have basics in normal single house amounts for impromptu use.
>Like a jar of mayo, a bit of mustard, black pepper, stuff you'd have
>already. I'm close enough to come up for a weekend (Norfolk area, about 5
>hours drive).

Sure, whenever you want to come up, just let me know.

>Ok, the new ones aren't like the old ones though. I've been diet controlled
>so long, I don't use one either.

Well, my last fasting level was 117, so I guess my diet isn't quite controlling
it yet.

>I got to see a friend use them though on
>some of my dishes (weekend neighbor cookouts). Last time, to see if he
>spiked on a bean and bell pepper dish that tastes alot like baked beans in
>sweetness but with no added sugar. He can handle the beans in portion
>control but not the sugar such dishes normally have yet was pining for that
>old sweet bean taste. He didn't spike so now makes the recipe better than I
>do.

I love baked beans, but often find them too cloyingly sweet, so I'm very
curious about this recipe.

>Thats really all that is needed. I was a little mystified on how to get us
>from a high salt low sugar, low fat, low cholestrol diet to shift to low (or
>lower) salt but we did it. Not over night, but we did. Foodies who cook,
>can adjust.

I would think that foodies would be especially good at making things taste
great with alternate ingredients or preparations.

>Best recipe developed on that hunt? How to make traditional
>salt boiled peanuts, in reduced sodium version *taste* the same and in this
>case, even *better*.

I believe you.

>Exactly! I love the turnip cakes! Real good chance they have kamaboko on
>steamed mustard greens with ginger or at least the ones here do.

Here too. I pretty much love any Chinese greens.

>Might be, but I've never tried one. I found out that anything green and
>meant to be green, suits me except some of the stronger flavored USA greens
>like collards and beet greens.

Even those are fantastic when not cooked to death or underseasoned.

>Hey, a few crumbs are ok. Take a ritz cracker and mush it up in a baggie
>and that will do 2 halves pretty well for 'crunch' topping appeal.

Yeah, anything crunchy with good crumb should do in that case.

>Ah most of those are not exported just now but if your email isn't munged
>(mine isn't) I can toss some! Mostly that's the one thing I just freehand
>with no recipe. I'll put together a set of the more unique ones for you.

I'll be emailing you shortly. I think I need to keep in regular touch with a
like mind.

Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Janet Wilder > wrote:

> Honestly, one dim sum meal will not damage me permanently. Diabetes management
> is all about what one does chronically. Anyone who isn't type 1 or in danger of
> going hypoglycemic can enjoy some occasional indulgences.

I think that is something individuals have to decide for themselves.
There is no standard person so there is no standard treatment or diet.
"occasional indulgences" can affect some people. It will raise A1C numbers.

>> My DH is diabetic and we are very social people. We eat out with friends
>> all the time and have learned some tricks. He always asks if he can
>> substitute vegetables or a small salad for the rice, potato, pasta, etc.
>> Even Mexican restaurants will have steamed veggies. If the only food
>> is breaded and fried, he takes off the breading. I will order dessert
>> and he will have a taste.
>
> Is his diabetes so advanced that some breading will severely compromise his
> health? I don't want to become that obsessed with carbohydrate avoidance in
> situations where it makes no sense to do so.

He has had it for 29 years. Fortunately, he has kept it under control so
he doesn't have many of the side effects that some long-term diabetics
have. He is on insulin via a pump because his pancreas just can't be
tweaked any longer by drugs into producing enough insulin. It is not
unusual to find long-term type 2s on insulin.

You don't have to be as obsessed as some of those people (one in
particular and you know who I mean) but the key to managing diabetes is
watching carb intake. Since you are not doing finger sticks, it's
impossible for you to know how carbohydrates are affecting your blood
glucose. I suggested to you on the other group that you change doctors
or see an endocrinologist. I think you have some misconceptions about
the disease that require education. It is not possible to manage
diabetes via Usenet newsgroups. You need to understand the disease and
how it works.

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>You don't have to be as obsessed as some of those people (one in
>particular and you know who I mean) but the key to managing diabetes is
> watching carb intake.

Which I generally do each and every day.

>Since you are not doing finger sticks, it's
>impossible for you to know how carbohydrates are affecting your blood
>glucose.

I get plenty of signs that tell me how carbs affect my blood glucose. Granted,
these signs may not be as precise as numbers, but they still count.

>I suggested to you on the other group that you change doctors
>or see an endocrinologist. I think you have some misconceptions about
>the disease that require education.

Please feel free to email me privately to correct any misconceptions you think
I have.

>It is not possible to manage diabetes via Usenet newsgroups. You need to
understand the disease and how it works.

I think I understand this disease very well. My decision not to test yet should
not be misinterpreted as lack of understanding.

This exchange right here is the very kind I sought to avoid on RFC. I wanted to
talk about the emotional and psychological ramifications of being a foodie on a
special diet, of having to eat according to what your body needs rather than
what your taste buds want. You've managed to transport the ASD discussion over
here, which I did not want. It's common sense that carbs must be controlled
when one has diabetes. Testing may give me a better handle on exactly which
foods spike me and thus allow me to better tweak my diet. But, the inescapable
truth remains.

Orlando

Omelet > wrote:
>I long ago came to a compromise with this and discovered that eating for
>nutrition and pleasure were not that difficult. :-) I have insulin
>resistance as well and learned to live with it rather than have to face
>full type 2 diabetes.

I've been at that same compromise point for years.

>The secret is the paleo-style diet.
>Real foods, low carb, high fiber and protein.
>The most fascinating part of it is that I now eat a greater variety
>since my primary diet is no longer based around wheat, pasta and
>potatoes. Now it is mostly meat and leafy greens of various species,
>along with a small amount of whole grains like brown, red and wild rices
>along with a few root vegetables that mostly avoid potatoes.

You've pretty much described my diet. At home, it's no problem to eat this way.
But when socializing, I'd like to eat more "normally".

Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
> This exchange right here is the very kind I sought to avoid on RFC. I wanted to
> talk about the emotional and psychological ramifications of being a foodie on a
> special diet, of having to eat according to what your body needs rather than
> what your taste buds want.

Part of that is an issue you mentioned in a different post in this
thread:

> But when socializing, I'd like to eat more "normally".

At least you put the word "normally" in quotes. For you, any diabetic,
anyone with insulin resistance or hypoglycemia or any low carber, it
does not work to view sweets and starches as normal.

Rich beats sweet. Savory beats starchy. Those are my normals since I
started low carbing. (When I do adhere to my own plan. My adherence
ranges from excellent to very poor over time). Those are foodie issues.

Thinking as foodie you have not had problems doing rich and savory at
home. At many restaurants it's a matter of reading the entire menu them
picking items or doing a custom order.

At desert places it's more about an attitude that sweet is poison. Some
have options some don't. You can always have a coffee or tea and spend
time waitching your friends eat poison.

"Omelet" wrote,
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

>> How can I bridge the gap between what my body needs to eat and what I
>> enjoy
>> as a foodie?

> The most fascinating part of it is that I now eat a greater variety
> since my primary diet is no longer based around wheat, pasta and
> potatoes. Now it is mostly meat and leafy greens of various species,
> along with a small amount of whole grains like brown, red and wild rices
> along with a few root vegetables that mostly avoid potatoes.

Although she is using different words, you can see a common thread here in
'expand the diet'. I call it 'learn a new food you like and let it slowly
and naturally be your choice'. Om probably doesnt think of it the same way
but it seems she did a slow progression of replacement with things she likes
and can have, for things she liked and can't have as much of anymore.

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>> You don't have to be as obsessed as some of those people (one in
>> particular and you know who I mean) but the key to managing diabetes is
>> watching carb intake.
>
> Which I generally do each and every day.
>
>> Since you are not doing finger sticks, it's
>> impossible for you to know how carbohydrates are affecting your blood
>> glucose.
>
> I get plenty of signs that tell me how carbs affect my blood glucose. Granted,
> these signs may not be as precise as numbers, but they still count.
>
>> I suggested to you on the other group that you change doctors
>> or see an endocrinologist. I think you have some misconceptions about
>> the disease that require education.
>
> Please feel free to email me privately to correct any misconceptions you think
> I have.
>
>> It is not possible to manage diabetes via Usenet newsgroups. You need to
> understand the disease and how it works.
>
> I think I understand this disease very well. My decision not to test yet should
> not be misinterpreted as lack of understanding.
>
> This exchange right here is the very kind I sought to avoid on RFC. I wanted to
> talk about the emotional and psychological ramifications of being a foodie on a
> special diet, of having to eat according to what your body needs rather than
> what your taste buds want. You've managed to transport the ASD discussion over
> here, which I did not want. It's common sense that carbs must be controlled
> when one has diabetes. Testing may give me a better handle on exactly which
> foods spike me and thus allow me to better tweak my diet. But, the inescapable
> truth remains.
>

I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
while doesn't hurt is just not true. That's where I believe you need
education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and inventing your own management
program can lead to trouble down the road.

Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.


--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>>pummeled.

Oh, I'm a kook now, am I? And no. That group is not my only source of
socialization.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> cshenk > wrote:
>>A sad group and I left the few I found because I was looking specifically
>>for good recipes even if I needed to adjust them for me. I instead went
>>on
>>my own culinary searches and found lots of things over time. Perhaps I
>>can
>>peel out some of the better ones for you to look over later.
>
> Probably after I finish comprehensive exams next week.
>
>>Thats the way to do it. You have the skill set, now use it gently over
>>time.
>
> I admit, those folks on ASD freaked me out. They want me to start testing
> right
> now and to immediately swear off any food that spikes my levels.
>
Why are you over here spreading lies about us? That is not quite what you
were told.


<snip>

Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>Part of that is an issue you mentioned in a different post in this
>thread:
>At least you put the word "normally" in quotes. For you, any diabetic,
>anyone with insulin resistance or hypoglycemia or any low carber, it
>does not work to view sweets and starches as normal.

I resist this because I want them to continue to be normal for me. I don't want
to think of lovingly prepared food as poison.

>Rich beats sweet. Savory beats starchy. Those are my normals since I
>started low carbing. (When I do adhere to my own plan. My adherence
>ranges from excellent to very poor over time). Those are foodie issues.

I can't say that rich always beats sweet for me, since rich often means fatty
and creamy, two textures I generally dislike. On the other hand, I like sweet
and rich or the unprocessed sweet flavors of fruits.

>At desert places it's more about an attitude that sweet is poison. Some
>have options some don't. You can always have a coffee or tea and spend
>time waitching your friends eat poison.

I doubt I'll ever consider home made desserts as poison.

Orlando

cshenk > wrote:
>Although she is using different words, you can see a common thread here in
>'expand the diet'. I call it 'learn a new food you like and let it slowly
>and naturally be your choice'. Om probably doesnt think of it the same way
>but it seems she did a slow progression of replacement with things she likes
>and can have, for things she liked and can't have as much of anymore.

I've done lots of that and don't plan to stop. Even if I didn't have dietary
necessities to expand my culinary pallet, I'd do it anyway.

Orlando

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
>that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
>while doesn't hurt is just not true.

Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high blood
glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One high-
carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2 diabetics,
let alone pre-diabetics like me.

>That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and
inventing your own management program can lead to trouble down the road.

This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not apply
to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as opposed to
type 1s.

>Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.


If it truly were no skin off your back, you wouldn't have highjacked my thread
here by pointing out my supposed denial. If I were truly in denial, I wouldn't
be asking these questions in the first place; I'd be eating anything I want at
all times.

Orlando

"Julie Bove" wrote
>> Janet Wilder wrote:

>>>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>>>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>>>pummeled.

> Oh, I'm a kook now, am I? And no. That group is not my only source of
> socialization.

Hi Julie. Please be careful with attributes. You made it look like Orlando
said that. He didn't. Janet did.

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>> I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
>> that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
>> while doesn't hurt is just not true.
>
> Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high blood
> glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One high-
> carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2 diabetics,
> let alone pre-diabetics like me.

Quote me the "nearly everyone" I'm the child of a diabetic and have
been married to and am the primary care-giver to another. NO ONE agrees
that the body can repair the damage done by high glucose levels. My aunt
lost her legs to badly controlled diabetes. Once she got it under
control, her legs didn't grow back. My mother's cousin lost her eye
sight from complications of diabetes. She never got it back. My DH had
a heart attack at age 40 and needed a double bypass. He was an
undiagnosed diabetic. Once he got his blood glucose under control his
heart didn't miraculously go back to what it was before the damage of
the heart attack.

I just hate it when people ask for help and when you give it, they trash
you for it.

>> That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and
> inventing your own management program can lead to trouble down the road.
>
> This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not apply
> to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as opposed to
> type 1s.

The "trouble down the road" has been documented in medical annals for
decades. Loss of limbs, diabetic neuropathy, blindness, cataracts,
glaucoma, heart disease, impotence are all "amorphous" to you? ...and
you say you don't need any education.

>> Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.
>
>
> If it truly were no skin off your back, you wouldn't have highjacked my thread
> here by pointing out my supposed denial. If I were truly in denial, I wouldn't
> be asking these questions in the first place; I'd be eating anything I want at
> all times.
>

Ya know what, sweetie, you need to get a life or get off of Usenet.
Threads get hijacked, threads naturally morph all the time and most
people don't get all bent out of shape about it. Get used to it or go
find a Yahoo! group with a moderator.

I have better things to do than deal with idiots.
--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

In article >,
Janet Wilder > wrote:

> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> > Janet Wilder > wrote:
> >> I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
> >> that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
> >> while doesn't hurt is just not true.
> >
> > Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high
> > blood
> > glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One
> > high-
> > carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2
> > diabetics,
> > let alone pre-diabetics like me.
>
> Quote me the "nearly everyone"

> I just hate it when people ask for help and when you give it, they trash
> you for it.

Sounds like it's time to let go of OEF.

> >> That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and
> > inventing your own management program can lead to trouble down the road.
> >
> > This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not
> > apply
> > to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as opposed
> > to
> > type 1s.
>
> The "trouble down the road" has been documented in medical annals for
> decades. Loss of limbs, diabetic neuropathy, blindness, cataracts,
> glaucoma, heart disease, impotence are all "amorphous" to you? ...and
> you say you don't need any education.
>
> Ya know what, sweetie, you need to get a life or get off of Usenet.
> Threads get hijacked, threads naturally morph all the time and most
> people don't get all bent out of shape about it. Get used to it or go
> find a Yahoo! group with a moderator.

There's just no way that responsible diabetics can give advice about
diabetes that ignores the facts. If people don't want to hear about it,
they shouldn't ask. Many of us have made major lifestyle adjustments,
and to just wave that off doesn't sit well.

In addition, there are some suspicious things that OEF has said. He
claims to be able to tell the effect of carbs on his blood glucose
without testing. Those of us who test, are completely unable to do
that, to my knowledge. I can take my BG one time and it's 80, another
time it's 300, and the meter is the only way I can tell. How does OEF
do it?

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "Julie Bove" wrote
>>> Janet Wilder wrote:
>
>>>>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>>>>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>>>>pummeled.
>
>> Oh, I'm a kook now, am I? And no. That group is not my only source of
>> socialization.
>
> Hi Julie. Please be careful with attributes. You made it look like
> Orlando said that. He didn't. Janet did.

I know. But I didn't see her post. I saw it later.

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>
>> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> > Janet Wilder > wrote:
>> >> I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
>> >> that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in
>> >> a
>> >> while doesn't hurt is just not true.
>> >
>> > Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at
>> > high
>> > blood
>> > glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long.
>> > One
>> > high-
>> > carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2
>> > diabetics,
>> > let alone pre-diabetics like me.
>>
>> Quote me the "nearly everyone"
>
>> I just hate it when people ask for help and when you give it, they trash
>> you for it.
>
> Sounds like it's time to let go of OEF.
>
>> >> That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease
>> >> and
>> > inventing your own management program can lead to trouble down the
>> > road.
>> >
>> > This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does
>> > not
>> > apply
>> > to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as
>> > opposed
>> > to
>> > type 1s.
>>
>> The "trouble down the road" has been documented in medical annals for
>> decades. Loss of limbs, diabetic neuropathy, blindness, cataracts,
>> glaucoma, heart disease, impotence are all "amorphous" to you? ...and
>> you say you don't need any education.
>>
>> Ya know what, sweetie, you need to get a life or get off of Usenet.
>> Threads get hijacked, threads naturally morph all the time and most
>> people don't get all bent out of shape about it. Get used to it or go
>> find a Yahoo! group with a moderator.
>
> There's just no way that responsible diabetics can give advice about
> diabetes that ignores the facts. If people don't want to hear about it,
> they shouldn't ask. Many of us have made major lifestyle adjustments,
> and to just wave that off doesn't sit well.
>
> In addition, there are some suspicious things that OEF has said. He
> claims to be able to tell the effect of carbs on his blood glucose
> without testing. Those of us who test, are completely unable to do
> that, to my knowledge. I can take my BG one time and it's 80, another
> time it's 300, and the meter is the only way I can tell. How does OEF
> do it?

Yep. There was a time when I could usually (not always) tell when my blood
sugar was over 150 because of the neuropathy in my feet. The pain and/or
numbness would kick in. But now I can't tell at all, except perhaps
sometimes when I am having a hypo. But even then I can't always tell.

On 19 Aug, 01:46, Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
> >I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
> >that it's okay to *indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
> >while doesn't hurt is just not true.
>
> Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high blood
> glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One high-
> carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2 diabetics,
> let alone pre-diabetics like me.
>
> >That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and
>
> inventing your own management * program can lead to trouble down the road.
>
> This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not apply
> to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as opposed to
> type 1s.
>
> >Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.
>
> If it truly were no skin off your back, you wouldn't have highjacked my thread
> here by pointing out my supposed denial. If I were truly in denial, I wouldn't
> be asking these questions in the first place; I'd be eating anything I want at
> all times.
>
> Orlando

You ask questions and respond cordially until people dare to say the
*test regularly* words. I think you will find that most PRO-ACTIVE
diabetics (regardless of being told by their GPs/diabetes care teams
they dont need to) test rigorously, especially on first dx. And those
PRO-ACTIVE diabetics stand way more chance of keeping debilitating
complications at bay for a quality life long-term.

Orlando, you will keep finding the *test regularly* vein in any group
that supports PRO-ACTIVE DIABETES MANAGEMENT. And you will also find
that most pro-actives who do test regularly do actually remain
healthier and complication free for far longer than non-pro-actives!

Now, it is advice from people who have categorically proven (to
themselves and their GP's) that regular testing and gauging whats bad
and whats good from that testing that they wish to share with you.

Either accept it or not - dont keep insulting them for wishing to pass
on good advice.

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>
>>Part of that is an issue you mentioned in a different post in this
>>thread:
>>At least you put the word "normally" in quotes. For you, any diabetic,
>>anyone with insulin resistance or hypoglycemia or any low carber, it
>>does not work to view sweets and starches as normal.
>
> I resist this because I want them to continue to be normal for me. I don't want
> to think of lovingly prepared food as poison.

Attitude and decisions have a long term effect. A decision is made that
turns to action. The action turns to habit. The habit turns to
attitude. The attitude makes and approach easy or difficult.

I get that you resist viewing sweets and starches as poison, but to you
now that is what they are. Sweets and starches trigger insulin release
that drives carb cravings so there's a biochemical drive for them when
we eat them. When we avoid them the biochemical drive goes away. Keep
the mental resistance and you'll always be tempted to have enough to
turn on the insulin roller coaster again.

Part of being a foodie is appreciating fine foods. Consider that does
not have to equal appreciating foods that interfere with your health.
Being a foodie can include specializing in certain types that are
beneficial to your health.

Focus on what you can't/shouldn't eat and you make it harder. Focus on
what you can/should eat and you make it easier. Focusing on what you
can/should eat is consistant with being a foodie - In your case a foodie
who has decided to change specialties.

A cheese souflee' can be as lovingly prepared as a chocolate souflee'.
An unsweetened berry and cream frappe' can be as lovingly prepared as a
cream brulee' with berries. Spagetti squash with an herb sauce will
almost always be more lovingly prepared than noodles with random sauce.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>Quote me the "nearly everyone" I'm the child of a diabetic and have
>been married to and am the primary care-giver to another. NO ONE agrees
>that the body can repair the damage done by high glucose levels. My aunt
>lost her legs to badly controlled diabetes. Once she got it under
>control, her legs didn't grow back. My mother's cousin lost her eye
>sight from complications of diabetes. She never got it back. My DH had
>a heart attack at age 40 and needed a double bypass. He was an
>undiagnosed diabetic. Once he got his blood glucose under control his
>heart didn't miraculously go back to what it was before the damage of
>the heart attack.
>I just hate it when people ask for help and when you give it, they trash
>you for it.

I didn't ask for scary warnings about diabetic trouble down the road; I know
about all that. I didn't ask for yet another campaign to get me to test my
blood glucose multiple times each day. I asked for foodie perspectives on
living to eat versus merely eating to live.

>The "trouble down the road" has been documented in medical annals for
>decades. Loss of limbs, diabetic neuropathy, blindness, cataracts,
>glaucoma, heart disease, impotence are all "amorphous" to you? ...and
>you say you don't need any education.

That trouble does not befall each and every diabetic regardless of how they
eat, how much weight they lose, how much they exercise, etc. If that trouble
were inevitable, it would make no sense to try and prevent it through
traditional treatments.

>Ya know what, sweetie, you need to get a life or get off of Usenet.
>Threads get hijacked, threads naturally morph all the time and most
>people don't get all bent out of shape about it. Get used to it or go
>find a Yahoo! group with a moderator.
>I have better things to do than deal with idiots.

Janet, if I am such an idiot, why did you respond to the thread I began? You
know damn well what kinds of discussions have ensued on the other diabetic
newsgroups regarding dietary choices. It was therefore obvious that I was
seeking a different nuanced perspective here. Yet, you have literally
transported the same kind of rhetoric from there to here, which demonstrates
that your goal in life is to spread that rhetoric around regardless of whether
it is welcome or unwelcome. We all know diabetes can ultimately kill people,
that it can rob them of their sight, limbs and even certain mental functions.
No one questioned the possibility of those things. I however question the
automatic assumption that any or all those things will happen to me as some
sort of punishment for not testing my blood glucose during the pre-diabetic
stage.

Orlando

Helen Back > wrote:
>Orlando, you will keep finding the *test regularly* vein in any group
>that supports PRO-ACTIVE DIABETES MANAGEMENT.

This is not a proactive diabetes management group; it is a food and cooking
group.

>And you will also find
>that most pro-actives who do test regularly do actually remain
>healthier and complication free for far longer than non-pro-actives!

I refuse the non-proactive label you're trying to pin on me.

>Now, it is advice from people who have categorically proven (to
>themselves and their GP's) that regular testing and gauging whats bad
>and whats good from that testing that they wish to share with you.
>Either accept it or not - dont keep insulting them for wishing to pass
>on good advice.

Most of the people I've encountered on other groups are willing to sacrifice
the aesthetic variety and quality of the food they eat in order to obtain lower
blood glucose numbers. I was seeking the perspective of foodies who try to
balance a sincere love of food with the constraints of medically mandated
diets.

Orlando

Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>Attitude and decisions have a long term effect. A decision is made that
>turns to action. The action turns to habit. The habit turns to
>attitude. The attitude makes and approach easy or difficult.

I don't quite agree with your motivational rhetoric, but your heart is clearly
in the right place.

>I get that you resist viewing sweets and starches as poison, but to you
>now that is what they are.

They don't have to be, even now. They can be better for other people than for
me. They can be good for me in limited quantities or flanked by fat, protein or
plenty of green vegetables.

>Sweets and starches trigger insulin release
>that drives carb cravings so there's a biochemical drive for them when
>we eat them. When we avoid them the biochemical drive goes away. Keep
>the mental resistance and you'll always be tempted to have enough to
>turn on the insulin roller coaster again.

I don't crave sweets and starches; I only like to eat them when I'm out because
I feel psychologically deprived at those times.

>Part of being a foodie is appreciating fine foods. Consider that does
>not have to equal appreciating foods that interfere with your health.

You're right.

>Being a foodie can include specializing in certain types that are
>beneficial to your health.

Right again.

>Focus on what you can't/shouldn't eat and you make it harder. Focus on
>what you can/should eat and you make it easier. Focusing on what you
>can/should eat is consistant with being a foodie - In your case a foodie
>who has decided to change specialties.

I like that.

>A cheese souflee' can be as lovingly prepared as a chocolate souflee'.

If I liked cheese souflés, that would be true. *grin*

>An unsweetened berry and cream frappe' can be as lovingly prepared as a
>cream brulee' with berries. Spagetti squash with an herb sauce will
>almost always be more lovingly prepared than noodles with random sauce.

Generalizations aside, you're mostly correct. Not all pasta is random and
machine made. It too can be lovingly prepared. If someone makes fresh pasta at
home entirely from scratch, I'm likely going to want to at least taste it in
order to appreciate their hard work. How do you think that pasta preparer would
react to knowing that I considered their beloved ingredients to be poison?

Orlando

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
...
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>>
>>>Part of that is an issue you mentioned in a different post in this
>>>thread:
>>>At least you put the word "normally" in quotes. For you, any diabetic,
>>>anyone with insulin resistance or hypoglycemia or any low carber, it
>>>does not work to view sweets and starches as normal.
>>
>> I resist this because I want them to continue to be normal for me. I
>> don't want
>> to think of lovingly prepared food as poison.
>
> Attitude and decisions have a long term effect. A decision is made that
> turns to action. The action turns to habit. The habit turns to
> attitude. The attitude makes and approach easy or difficult.
>
> I get that you resist viewing sweets and starches as poison, but to you
> now that is what they are. Sweets and starches trigger insulin release
> that drives carb cravings so there's a biochemical drive for them when
> we eat them. When we avoid them the biochemical drive goes away. Keep
> the mental resistance and you'll always be tempted to have enough to
> turn on the insulin roller coaster again.
>
> Part of being a foodie is appreciating fine foods. Consider that does
> not have to equal appreciating foods that interfere with your health.
> Being a foodie can include specializing in certain types that are
> beneficial to your health.
>
> Focus on what you can't/shouldn't eat and you make it harder. Focus on
> what you can/should eat and you make it easier. Focusing on what you
> can/should eat is consistant with being a foodie - In your case a foodie
> who has decided to change specialties.
>
> A cheese souflee' can be as lovingly prepared as a chocolate souflee'.
> An unsweetened berry and cream frappe' can be as lovingly prepared as a
> cream brulee' with berries. Spagetti squash with an herb sauce will
> almost always be more lovingly prepared than noodles with random sauce.

Good comment!

--
--
https://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>
>>A cheese souflee' can be as lovingly prepared as a chocolate souflee'.
>
> If I liked cheese souflés, that would be true. *grin*

Drat. Let them eat crustless quiche with fresh herbs from the garden!

> If someone makes fresh pasta at
> home entirely from scratch, I'm likely going to want to at least taste it in
> order to appreciate their hard work. How do you think that pasta preparer would
> react to knowing that I considered their beloved ingredients to be poison?

I'm wheat intolerant so I probably could not avoid viewing it as poison.
Not all that many people make their noodles from quinoa or rice or other
grains. I know it tastes good but the more I avoid intentional exposure
to wheat the smaller my symptoms when I get accidental exposures.

Top quoting for a reason. Rest, please forgive me.

This thread was excerpted and somewhat re-arranged then posted to the
alt.support.diabetes. Because it is not in context of the thread here, it
doesn't look like Orlando has his cap on right over there.

People, if you want to crosspost, do it honestly so all can see and add no
commentary in 'the other place'.


"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>>I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
>>that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
>>while doesn't hurt is just not true.
>
> Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high
> blood
> glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One
> high-
> carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2
> diabetics,
> let alone pre-diabetics like me.
>
>>That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease and
> inventing your own management program can lead to trouble down the road.
>
> This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not
> apply
> to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as
> opposed to
> type 1s.
>
>>Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.
>
>
> If it truly were no skin off your back, you wouldn't have highjacked my
> thread
> here by pointing out my supposed denial. If I were truly in denial, I
> wouldn't
> be asking these questions in the first place; I'd be eating anything I
> want at
> all times.
>
> Orlando

"Helen Back" wrote
Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Janet Wilder wrote:

> >I'm sorry you feel that I "hijacked" your thread, but your statements
> >that it's okay to indulge yourself in high carb foods because once in a
> >while doesn't hurt is just not true.

You have hijacked the thread. We may have to start a new one to discuss his
actual questions.

> Nearly everyone agrees that the body can repair damage done to it at high
> blood
> glucose levels; the trick is not leaving it at those levels for long. One
> high-
> carb meal surrounded by lower-carb foods will not kill most type 2
> diabetics,
> let alone pre-diabetics like me.
>
> >That's where I believe you need education. Diabetes is a nasty disease
> >and

He knows this. Had nothing to do with the thread.

> This trouble down the road is speculative and amorphous. It also does not
> apply
> to all kinds of diabetics, from pre-diabetics like me to type 2s as
> opposed to
> type 1s.
>
> >Of course if you want to remain in denial, it's no skin off of my back.

> If it truly were no skin off your back, you wouldn't have highjacked my
> thread
> here by pointing out my supposed denial. If I were truly in denial, I
> wouldn't
> be asking these questions in the first place; I'd be eating anything I
> want at
> all times.
>
> Orlando

_________________
(special headwrs used as your software doesnt allow normal quoting)

You ask questions and respond cordially until people dare to say the
*test regularly* words. I think you will find that most PRO-ACTIVE
diabetics (regardless of being told by their GPs/diabetes care teams
they dont need to) test rigorously, especially on first dx. And those
PRO-ACTIVE diabetics stand way more chance of keeping debilitating
complications at bay for a quality life long-term.

Orlando, you will keep finding the *test regularly* vein in any group
that supports PRO-ACTIVE DIABETES MANAGEMENT. And you will also find
that most pro-actives who do test regularly do actually remain
healthier and complication free for far longer than non-pro-actives!

Now, it is advice from people who have categorically proven (to
themselves and their GP's) that regular testing and gauging whats bad
and whats good from that testing that they wish to share with you.

Either accept it or not - dont keep insulting them for wishing to pass
on good advice.
________________-

Geeze, did you even bother to read what *this* thread it about? It;s
recipes and how to adapt to new needs.

It was going fine until the ASD folks came over.

Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>Drat. Let them eat crustless quiche with fresh herbs from the garden!
>I'm wheat intolerant so I probably could not avoid viewing it as poison.
>Not all that many people make their noodles from quinoa or rice or other
>grains. I know it tastes good but the more I avoid intentional exposure
>to wheat the smaller my symptoms when I get accidental exposures.

I'm not wheat intolerant. I don't have allergic reactions to wheat. My
occasional finger tingling only happens when I eat actual sugar, not when I eat
wheat products.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote
> Helen Back wrote:

>>Orlando, you will keep finding the *test regularly* vein in any group
>>that supports PRO-ACTIVE DIABETES MANAGEMENT.
>
> This is not a proactive diabetes management group; it is a food and
> cooking
> group.

Correct Orlando.

> I refuse the non-proactive label you're trying to pin on me.

You are doing what is correct according to your Doctor and no one else
should question this.

> I was seeking the perspective of foodies who try to
> balance a sincere love of food with the constraints of medically mandated
> diets.

Correct. We have to start a new thread to get back on that topic.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>>>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>>>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>>>pummeled.
>
> Oh, I'm a kook now, am I? And no. That group is not my only source of
> socialization.

This is what I refer to. You left Orlando's name in (with nothing he said)
but at the top amd made it *look* like he said that.

When trimming correctly, you remove the names of the people you are not
quoting.

A correct version of that was:

>> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>>>That must have been that kook, Julie. The alt.food.diabetes group is her
>>>only source of socialization. She dropped in here for a while and got
>>>pummeled.
>
> Oh, I'm a kook now, am I? And no. That group is not my only source of
> socialization.

"Doug Freyburger" wrote
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

>> I resist this because I want them to continue to be normal for me. I
>> don't want
>> to think of lovingly prepared food as poison.
>
> Attitude and decisions have a long term effect. A decision is made that
> turns to action. The action turns to habit. The habit turns to
> attitude. The attitude makes and approach easy or difficult.
>
> I get that you resist viewing sweets and starches as poison, but to you
> now that is what they are. Sweets and starches trigger insulin release
> that drives carb cravings so there's a biochemical drive for them when
> we eat them. When we avoid them the biochemical drive goes away. Keep
> the mental resistance and you'll always be tempted to have enough to
> turn on the insulin roller coaster again.
>
> Part of being a foodie is appreciating fine foods. Consider that does
> not have to equal appreciating foods that interfere with your health.
> Being a foodie can include specializing in certain types that are
> beneficial to your health.
>
> Focus on what you can't/shouldn't eat and you make it harder. Focus on
> what you can/should eat and you make it easier. Focusing on what you
> can/should eat is consistant with being a foodie - In your case a foodie
> who has decided to change specialties.
>
> A cheese souflee' can be as lovingly prepared as a chocolate souflee'.
> An unsweetened berry and cream frappe' can be as lovingly prepared as a
> cream brulee' with berries. Spagetti squash with an herb sauce will
> almost always be more lovingly prepared than noodles with random sauce.

Great message Doug! Dead on what is needed. We can say so many things in
so many words that semantically add to same but a way of expression can make
it all 'gel' just right. I specifically like 'focus on what you can't and
it''s harder'.

I've had to adapt many times over a long life and focusing on what you can
have works much better than focusing on what you can't. I put it as 'find
new stuff you like' and another in other words did the same. You seem to be
saying the same but with another set of wording.

Orlando, you asked how to adapt. Ignore the crossover stuff from outside
here and see, the real folks who have done it 'foodie' style.

cshenk > wrote:
>You have hijacked the thread. We may have to start a new one to discuss his
>actual questions.

I think they will hijack a new one as well.

>Geeze, did you even bother to read what *this* thread it about? It;s
>recipes and how to adapt to new needs.
>It was going fine until the ASD folks came over.

For them, any thread with me in it is a forum to push pre-diabetic compulsive
testing, complete with orchestrated predictions of all the doom and gloom that
will befall me if I don't do it immediately.

Orlando