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The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
<http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu linary--degrees--/> -- Julian Vrieslander |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio > Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first. > > <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu > linary--degrees--/> It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook anything? |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:
> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook > anything? Nonsense. The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one episode of his show. On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have different hiring/training criteria. nb |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Aug 20, 2:42*pm, "Giusi" > wrote:
> "Julian Vrieslander" *ha scritto nel messaggio > > > Thinking of going to culinary school? *Read this first. > > > <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu > > linary--degrees--/> > > It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to > slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook > anything? The money's not too good in the field. Why anyone would want to be a pro cook is beyond me(sort of). I can understand if the individual wants to gravitate towards becoming a boss; sous chef or ex. chef. I wanted to be a pro cook because I liked cooking. I sold out and left the trade and went to machinists school. To be a cook, a pro cook you need to be an idealist. Spending 50K is like way out there. I didn't even really go to school. I took a 10 week course in gourmet cooking at a community college. Then I went to school while an apprentice. A person should be a pretty good cook after a three year apprenticeship.(assuming the person is interested in the field) He/ she should know the basics. That doesn't mean that they can go into any restaurant (after apprenticeship) and the first day send out masterpieces. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
"notbob" > ha scritto nel messaggio ... > On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote: > > >> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook >> anything? > > Nonsense. > > The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former > job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and > worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one > episode of his show. > > On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a > line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his > boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather > pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty > weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the > chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have > different hiring/training criteria. Two stories do not a history make. Most of the chefs I know here apprenticed. They earned almost nothing for years and years and they weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves. Most chefs I know in the US went to school. They have to move as quickly as possible toward that $120000 a year job or they will go under from tuition debt. It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's pay. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Giusi wrote:
> "Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio > >> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first. >> >> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu >> linary--degrees--/> > > It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to > slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook > anything? There was a local cooking school that the province shut down last winter because they were operating illegally and the students (mostly from India) complained that they were being exploited as cheap labour. http://www.thestar.com/news/investig...ra-chef-school |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:
> Two stories do not a history make. Nor do European apprenticeship traditions when talking about US schools/cooking. > They earned almost nothing for years and years and they > weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves. Hey, it's your system, not ours. > Most chefs I know in the US went to school. Of course. We have no virtual slave apprenticeship program like Europe and never have. > They have to move as quickly as possible toward that $120000 a year > job or they will go under from tuition debt. As most do. > It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law > schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's > pay. It does if corruption and greed is the driving force behind cooking schools and students are basically dumber'n a bag o' hammers and are lured by completely bogus cooking shows that have absolutely nothing in common with a real culinary career. Bottom line: you can only accomplish what you are willing to strive for. nb |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 2010-08-20, Mr Bill > wrote:
> qualified to walk across the street..and the best you might hope for > is to be able to say..."can I supersize that for you?" lol... nb |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
"Julian Vrieslander" > wrote in message ... > Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first. > > <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu > linary--degrees--/> > > -- > Julian Vrieslander Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the lines and start working. Dimitri |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Aug 20, 2:59*pm, "Dimitri" > wrote:
> > Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your > basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the > lines and start working. > > Dimitri You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'. Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK. That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag. So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder. go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous chefs. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/20/2010 5:58 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is > great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make > it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder. > > > go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous > chefs. > It is just like landscape design or hairstyling, there are some things that a school just can not teach you. Becca |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:42:51 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote: > >"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio > >> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first. >> >> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu >> linary--degrees--/> > >It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to >slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook >anything? Methinks you exaggerate. I agree with the value of an apprenticeship but not with the ten years before cooking anything. An apprentice in any trade will be perfoming almost immediately and will progress at whatever rate their innate ability permits. Cooking is an art, same as with all art forms without natural talent one goes nowhere. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
ImStillMags wrote:
> > You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can > teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to > make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management > and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in > cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'. > > Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye > is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK. > > That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for > cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who > never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have > the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not > a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this > ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag. > > So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is > great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make > it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder. This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good. But college is about a lot more than the point skills in the major and those other aspects end up making more and more difference as the years go on. People who never went to get that degree don't like that. Appenticeships are for technicians and skilled laborers. University is for professionals engineers and scientists. To my engineering biased view this should map - Apprenticeships are for prep cooks and line cooks. University is for professionals chefs, menu designers and culinary experimenters. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote:
> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? nb |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote: > >> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... > >On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? > >nb In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee. It's more difficult to get a motor vehical operator's license. It's a lot more difficult to obtain a barber's license... nowadays there are very few licensed barbers. Unfortunately one doesn't need any kind of documentation to prepare food commercially... most people who prepare our food are illiterate... the business owners are educated and need permits but the food workers don't need to be able to read and write and most cannot. The typical cook's job is extremely repetative, it's best that they are not educated. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, notbob > wrote: > >> On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote: >> >>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... >> On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? >> >> nb > > In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being > sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee. Not anywhere we've ever lived. Most states require xxx hours of class Sometimes in both a vocational h.s. program plus private cosmetology school hours, plus yyy hours of apprenticeship, documented, plus an exam. gloria p |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/20/2010 10:14 PM, brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, > wrote: > >> On 2010-08-21, Ema > wrote: >> >>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... >> >> On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? >> >> nb > > In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being > sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee. But that is completely incorrect as usual. A good friend and a relative own businesses that hire licensed staff. Both extensive training and an extensive exam are the norm. Here are the requirements in PA just to be able to take the comprehensive exam: § 7.32d. Requirements for cosmetologist examination. (a) An applicant for the cosmetologist examination who holds no limited licenses shall: (1) Be 16 years of age or older. (2) Except as provided in subsection (b), have done one of the following: (i) Completed a 10th grade education or its equivalent. (ii) Received training from or under the auspices of the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation in the Department of Labor and Industry. (3) Have done one of the following: (i) Completed a minimum of 1,250 hours of instruction in cosmetology, within a period of not less than 8 consecutive months, as a day-time student in a licensed school of cosmetology. (ii) Completed a minimum of 1,250 hours of instruction in cosmetology, within a period of not less than 15 consecutive months, as a night-time student in a licensed school of cosmetology. (iii) Completed 2,000 hours of training in a Board-approved cosmetology apprentice program. > It's more difficult to get a motor vehical operator's license. It's a > lot more difficult to obtain a barber's license... nowadays there are > very few licensed barbers. Unfortunately one doesn't need any kind of > documentation to prepare food commercially... most people who prepare > our food are illiterate... the business owners are educated and need > permits but the food workers don't need to be able to read and write > and most cannot. The typical cook's job is extremely repetative, it's > best that they are not educated. > > |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Dan Abel wrote:
> Mr. Bill > wrote: > Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The > alumni generally pay for the schooling. Most pro football players go > to four years of college first. The main qualification for many > football players is height and 250 pounds of solid muscle, including > that huge muscle between the ears. They often attend few if any > classes. It's football and parties. Of course this is not true at all schools. Academics are important to any number of teams, and I don't mean fluff classes with fako passing grades. Of course there are schools who do as you say, shame on them ... you can always tell those when their players are interviewed by the press and it's obvious they aren't in college for their education. nancy |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Aug 21, 5:10*am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
> Dan Abel wrote: > > Mr. Bill > wrote: > > Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. *The > > alumni generally pay for the schooling. *Most pro football players go > > to four years of college first. *The main qualification for many > > football players is height and 250 pounds of solid muscle, including > > that huge muscle between the ears. *They often attend few if any > > classes. *It's football and parties. > > Of course this is not true at all schools. *Academics are important > to any number of teams, and I don't mean fluff classes with fako > passing grades. *Of course there are schools who do as you say, > shame on them ... you can always tell those when their players are > interviewed by the press and it's obvious they aren't in college for > their education. > > nancy The most notable student/athlete is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle -goro- |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/20/2010 8:04 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2010-08-21, Ema > wrote: > >> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... > On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? > > nb Having a license means you learned the bones and muscles in the head, it does not mean you are a good hair stylist. You have to be an artist to be good, this is something books can not teach you. Becca |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:49:56 -0500, The Cook >
wrote: >On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:45:55 -0400, Mr. Bill > wrote: > >>On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:27:59 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote: >> >>>Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The alumni >>>generally pay for the schooling. >> >>No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to >>attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have the >>talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not become >>better just because you have attended "Blah Blah University". >> >> >> >You don't take a person just out of college (and sometimes high >school) and put them in the pros if they have never played the sport. >And you will play better if you are a starter on a team that wins >games. If you are a starter on a team that makes it to the Bowl games >or NCAA basketball tournament, you will be much better because you >have better coaches and have played against better teams > >It starts with little league, JV sports, high school sports, >especially football and basketball. There are sports camps for the >better players. Then if you are good you get recruited by the >colleges and given sports scholarships. If you live through that and >are still in one piece you may get recruited for the pros. The talent still needs to be present initially... what you described is grooming and practice... you say it yourself, "if you are good"... athletes are born, not made. You can't just wake up one morning and decide you're going to be a chef... anyone can attend a culinary school, they'll be very happy to take their money, but I'll bet 99% of those who graduate will never earn a living in the food industry... anyone with the dollars can buy a culinary degree. Most notable "chef's" get their degree after they become notable, looks good on their bio... Julia Child is a good case in point... she was never much of a cook, she was a media celebrity because she was first. Professional cooking is nothing like the glamorized rendition seen on TV... the real deal is hard dirty work, with long hours, zero job security, and doesn't pay very much. My new neighbor is a cook at three different NYC restaurants, if not for 100 hour weeks he could not have bought that very modest country house. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:45:55 -0400, Mr. Bill > wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:27:59 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote: > >>Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The alumni >>generally pay for the schooling. > >No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to >attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have the >talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not become >better just because you have attended "Blah Blah University". > > > You don't take a person just out of college (and sometimes high school) and put them in the pros if they have never played the sport. And you will play better if you are a starter on a team that wins games. If you are a starter on a team that makes it to the Bowl games or NCAA basketball tournament, you will be much better because you have better coaches and have played against better teams It starts with little league, JV sports, high school sports, especially football and basketball. There are sports camps for the better players. Then if you are good you get recruited by the colleges and given sports scholarships. If you live through that and are still in one piece you may get recruited for the pros. Except for little league the taxpayers or alumni pay for the training. Sounds like the European culinary apprenticeship tradition. -- Susan N. "Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy." Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974) |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Goro wrote:
> On Aug 21, 5:10 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote: >> Dan Abel wrote: >>> Mr. Bill > wrote: >>> Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The >>> alumni generally pay for the schooling. Most pro football players go >>> to four years of college first. The main qualification for many >>> football players is height and 250 pounds of solid muscle, including >>> that huge muscle between the ears. They often attend few if any >>> classes. It's football and parties. >> >> Of course this is not true at all schools. Academics are important >> to any number of teams, and I don't mean fluff classes with fako >> passing grades. Of course there are schools who do as you say, >> shame on them ... you can always tell those when their players are >> interviewed by the press and it's obvious they aren't in college for >> their education. > The most notable student/athlete is: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle Yikes, he started out right with Peddie School, and never stopped. Cool. nancy |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Mr. Bill wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:27:59 -0700, Dan Abel > > wrote: > > > Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The > > alumni generally pay for the schooling. > > No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to > attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have the > talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not become > better just because you have attended "Blah Blah University". Talent won't, but skill might. And sometimes it might be the right kind of skill. (There are people who seriously contend that an MBA is worse than useless.) -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com) |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Dan Goodman wrote:
> Mr. Bill wrote: >> No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to >> attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have the >> talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not become >> better just because you have attended "Blah Blah University". > > Talent won't, but skill might. And sometimes it might be the right > kind of skill. (There are people who seriously contend that an MBA > is worse than useless.) Given than many schools don't have accredited MBA programs, it's not surprising. They crank out the degrees, but do the recipients have the skills you expect, who knows. In the end it's the persons talent in whatever that matters. nancy |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz blathered:
> Professional cooking is nothing like the glamorized rendition seen on > TV... the real deal is hard dirty work, with long hours, zero job > security, and doesn't pay very much. You seem to have a racoon (or feisty squirrel) up your ass about professional cooking as depicted on television. Did you have some TV show in mind which incorrectly depicts a professional kitchen? Shows which actually purport to depict professional cooking are few and far between, and as far as I know are fairly accurate. Nearly all TV cooking shows are intended as cooking demonstrations for a home audience; they in no way try to show what it's like in a restaurant kitchen. My guess is that you have no idea what's on TV, because you spend all your time online. You just bash TV cooking because the voices tell you to. Bob |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
Nancy Young wrote:
> Dan Goodman wrote: > > Mr. Bill wrote: > > > > No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to > > > attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have > > > the talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not > > > become better just because you have attended "Blah Blah > > > University". > > > > Talent won't, but skill might. And sometimes it might be the > > right kind of skill. (There are people who seriously contend > > that an MBA is worse than useless.) > > Given than many schools don't have accredited MBA programs, > it's not surprising. They crank out the degrees, but do the > recipients have the skills you expect, who knows. In the end it's > the persons talent in whatever that matters. nancy Sorry for not being clearer: There are people who say that accredited MBA programs -- including those at the top-rated business schools -- are worse than useless. Not that they don't teach skills, but that some of the methods taught are wrong and much of what's taught about using the rest is wrong. -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com) |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote:
> Having a license means you learned the bones and muscles in the head, it > does not mean you are a good hair stylist. You have to be an artist to > be good, this is something books can not teach you. Yeah.... a regular Renoir. http://www.ibeatyou.com/competition/...idiculous-hair nb |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Aug 20, 7:14*pm, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, notbob > wrote: > >On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote: > > >> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... > > >On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? > > >nb > > In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being > sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, *and paying the fee. > It's more difficult to get a motor vehical operator's license. *I not here in california. cosmetology students need 1500 hours of of combined classroom and apprentice work at the school of choice, then take a state cosmetology licensing exam. harriet & critters |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/21/2010 9:03 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2010-08-21, Ema > wrote: > >> Having a license means you learned the bones and muscles in the head, it >> does not mean you are a good hair stylist. You have to be an artist to >> be good, this is something books can not teach you. > Yeah.... a regular Renoir. > > http://www.ibeatyou.com/competition/...idiculous-hair > > nb Hah, and to think I was just looking for a new hairstyle. ;-) Becca |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/20/2010 9:03 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote: >> >> You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can >> teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to >> make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management >> and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in >> cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'. >> >> Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye >> is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK. >> >> That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for >> cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who >> never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have >> the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not >> a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this >> ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag. >> >> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is >> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make >> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder. > > This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and > degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a > degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked > before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good. > > But college is about a lot more than the point skills in the major and > those other aspects end up making more and more difference as the years > go on. People who never went to get that degree don't like that. > > Appenticeships are for technicians and skilled laborers. University is > for professionals engineers and scientists. To my engineering biased > view this should map - Apprenticeships are for prep cooks and line > cooks. University is for professionals chefs, menu designers and > culinary experimenters. Then we have doctors, who after completing many years of university, then start their apprenticeship. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On 8/21/2010 7:22 AM, George wrote:
> On 8/20/2010 10:14 PM, brooklyn1 wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, > wrote: >> >>> On 2010-08-21, Ema > wrote: >>> >>>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... >>> >>> On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? >>> >>> nb >> >> In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being >> sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee. > > > But that is completely incorrect as usual. A good friend and a relative > own businesses that hire licensed staff. Both extensive training and an > extensive exam are the norm. Here are the requirements in PA just to be > able to take the comprehensive exam: > > > § 7.32d. Requirements for cosmetologist examination. > > (a) An applicant for the cosmetologist examination who holds no limited > licenses shall: > > (1) Be 16 years of age or older. > > (2) Except as provided in subsection (b), have done one of the following: > > (i) Completed a 10th grade education or its equivalent. > > (ii) Received training from or under the auspices of the Office of > Vocational Rehabilitation in the Department of Labor and Industry. > > (3) Have done one of the following: > > (i) Completed a minimum of 1,250 hours of instruction in cosmetology, > within a period of not less than 8 consecutive months, as a day-time > student in a licensed school of cosmetology. > > (ii) Completed a minimum of 1,250 hours of instruction in cosmetology, > within a period of not less than 15 consecutive months, as a night-time > student in a licensed school of cosmetology. > > (iii) Completed 2,000 hours of training in a Board-approved cosmetology > apprentice program. You have to remember that these things vary by state. Wasn't too long ago that in one state one could become a lawyer by deciding one day "I want to be a lawyer", walking in off the street the day of the bar exam, and passing the exam. >> It's more difficult to get a motor vehical operator's license. It's a >> lot more difficult to obtain a barber's license... nowadays there are >> very few licensed barbers. Unfortunately one doesn't need any kind of >> documentation to prepare food commercially... most people who prepare >> our food are illiterate... the business owners are educated and need >> permits but the food workers don't need to be able to read and write >> and most cannot. The typical cook's job is extremely repetative, it's >> best that they are not educated. >> >> > |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Aug 21, 5:49*am, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> The talent still needs to be present initially... what you described > is grooming and practice... you say it yourself, "if you are good"... > athletes are born, not made. * You can't just wake up one morning and > decide you're going to be a chef... anyone can attend a culinary > school, they'll be very happy to take their money, but I'll bet 99% of > those who graduate will never earn a living in the food industry... > anyone with the dollars can buy a culinary degree. *Most notable > "chef's" get their degree after they become notable, looks good on > their bio... *Julia Child is a good case in point... she was never > much of a cook, she was a media celebrity because she was first. > Professional cooking is nothing like the glamorized rendition seen on > TV... the real deal is hard dirty work, with long hours, zero job > security, and doesn't pay very much. Julia Child taught people how to cook at home. But first she earned a certificate from the Cordon Bleu. |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:15:46 -0400, Mr. Bill wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:17:19 GMT, notbob > wrote: > >>The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former >>job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and >>worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs > > Who paid for basket ball school or football school?.....No one > does... well, most professional athletes are college athletes first (after being high school athletes), usually with some kind of scholarship. so they might not have paid, but someone did. your pal, blake |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:58:34 -0500, Dan Goodman wrote:
> Mr. Bill wrote: > >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:27:59 -0700, Dan Abel > >> wrote: >> >>> Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The >>> alumni generally pay for the schooling. >> >> No...that wasn't my point. There isn't a "football school" to >> attend....you don't get a degree in "football". You have the >> talent before hand. A talent in any profession will not become >> better just because you have attended "Blah Blah University". > > Talent won't, but skill might. And sometimes it might be the right > kind of skill. (There are people who seriously contend that an MBA > is worse than useless.) well, george bush the lesser had one. your pal, blake |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:29:52 -0700 (PDT), Goro wrote:
> On Aug 21, 5:10*am, "Nancy Young" > wrote: >> Dan Abel wrote: >>> Mr. Bill > wrote: >>> Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. *The >>> alumni generally pay for the schooling. *Most pro football players go >>> to four years of college first. *The main qualification for many >>> football players is height and 250 pounds of solid muscle, including >>> that huge muscle between the ears. *They often attend few if any >>> classes. *It's football and parties. >> >> Of course this is not true at all schools. *Academics are important >> to any number of teams, and I don't mean fluff classes with fako >> passing grades. *Of course there are schools who do as you say, >> shame on them ... you can always tell those when their players are >> interviewed by the press and it's obvious they aren't in college for >> their education. >> >> nancy > > The most notable student/athlete is: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle > > -goro- bill bradley, too. your pal, blake |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:35:32 -0600, gloria.p wrote:
> brooklyn1 wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, notbob > wrote: >> >>> On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote: >>> >>>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling....... >>> On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling? >>> >>> nb >> >> In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being >> sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee. > > Not anywhere we've ever lived. Most states require xxx hours of class > Sometimes in both a vocational h.s. program plus private cosmetology > school hours, plus yyy hours of apprenticeship, documented, plus an exam. > > gloria p sheldon doesn't know what the **** he's talking about? what a surprise. your pal, blake |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:03:30 GMT, notbob wrote:
> On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote: > >> Having a license means you learned the bones and muscles in the head, it >> does not mean you are a good hair stylist. You have to be an artist to >> be good, this is something books can not teach you. > > Yeah.... a regular Renoir. > > http://www.ibeatyou.com/competition/...idiculous-hair > > nb too funny. your pal, blake |
The scandal of $50k culinary degrees
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote: >> >> You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can >> teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to >> make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management >> and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in >> cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'. >> >> Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye >> is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK. >> >> That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for >> cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who >> never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have >> the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not >> a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this >> ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag. >> >> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is >> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make >> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder. > > This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and > degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a > degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked > before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good. i went to a trade school before getting my programmer gig. it's unclear how much that had to do with my hiring, though - they (arlington co., va, government) seemed to use IBM's programming aptitude test as their screening device at that time. that was in the 80's. your pal, blake |
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