Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

<http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/>

--
Julian Vrieslander

"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio

> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>
> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
> linary--degrees--/>

It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?

On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:


> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
> anything?

Nonsense.

The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former
job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and
worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one
episode of his show.

On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a
line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his
boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather
pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty
weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the
chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have
different hiring/training criteria.

nb

"notbob" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:
>
>
>> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
>> anything?
>
> Nonsense.
>
> The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former
> job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and
> worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one
> episode of his show.
>
> On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a
> line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his
> boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather
> pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty
> weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the
> chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have
> different hiring/training criteria.

Two stories do not a history make. Most of the chefs I know here
apprenticed. They earned almost nothing for years and years and they
weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves.

Most chefs I know in the US went to school. They have to move as quickly as
possible toward that $120000 a year job or they will go under from tuition
debt. It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law
schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's
pay.

On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:

> Two stories do not a history make.

Nor do European apprenticeship traditions when talking about US
schools/cooking.

> They earned almost nothing for years and years and they
> weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves.

Hey, it's your system, not ours.

> Most chefs I know in the US went to school.

Of course. We have no virtual slave apprenticeship program like
Europe and never have.

> They have to move as quickly as possible toward that $120000 a year
> job or they will go under from tuition debt.

As most do.

> It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law
> schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's
> pay.

It does if corruption and greed is the driving force behind cooking
schools and students are basically dumber'n a bag o' hammers and are
lured by completely bogus cooking shows that have absolutely nothing
in common with a real culinary career.

Bottom line: you can only accomplish what you are willing to strive
for.

nb

On Aug 20, 4:17*pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2010-08-20, Giusi > wrote:
>
> > slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
> > anything?
>
> Nonsense. *
>
> The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former
> job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and
> worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. *Tony profiled him on one
> episode of his show.
>
> On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a
> line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his
> boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather
> pricey school and the chef's former school. *I thought that was pretty
> weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the
> chef's restaurant is now at J&W. *So obviously, some chefs have
> different hiring/training criteria.
>
> nb

J&W is not one of the commercial schools. I've seen their graduates
go on to some rather well known places (one worked in the World Trade
Center restaurant. Don't know if he'd moved on before 2001. he was a
FOAF)

A librarian friend works for the Cordon Bleu school in Boston (No
relation to the one in France), a for-profit school, and while she was
excited to get the job, she's been disturbed by the caliber of the
students they accept. If you're a good student with a go-getter
attitude, any school can teach you the basics of a trade that you can
then build on as you work in the trade, but you'll have a hard time
paying back those private college sized loans on the starting wages
you'll earn.

maxine in ri

On Aug 20, 2:42*pm, "Giusi" > wrote:
> "Julian Vrieslander" *ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > Thinking of going to culinary school? *Read this first.
>
> > <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
> > linary--degrees--/>
>
> It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
> anything?

The money's not too good in the field. Why anyone would want to be a
pro cook is beyond me(sort of). I can understand if the individual
wants to gravitate towards becoming a boss; sous chef or ex. chef. I
wanted to be a pro cook because I liked cooking. I sold out and left
the trade and went to machinists school. To be a cook, a pro cook you
need to be an idealist. Spending 50K is like way out there. I didn't
even really go to school. I took a 10 week course in gourmet cooking
at a community college. Then I went to school while an apprentice.
A person should be a pretty good cook after a three year
apprenticeship.(assuming the person is interested in the field) He/
she should know the basics. That doesn't mean that they can go into
any restaurant (after apprenticeship) and the first day send out
masterpieces.

Giusi wrote:
> "Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>>
>> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
>> linary--degrees--/>
>
> It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
> slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
> anything?


There was a local cooking school that the province shut down last winter
because they were operating illegally and the students (mostly from
India) complained that they were being exploited as cheap labour.




http://www.thestar.com/news/investig...ra-chef-school

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:42:51 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:

>
>"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>>
>> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
>> linary--degrees--/>
>
>It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
>slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
>anything?

Methinks you exaggerate. I agree with the value of an apprenticeship
but not with the ten years before cooking anything. An apprentice in
any trade will be perfoming almost immediately and will progress at
whatever rate their innate ability permits. Cooking is an art, same
as with all art forms without natural talent one goes nowhere.

"Julian Vrieslander" > wrote in message
...
> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>
> <http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
> linary--degrees--/>
>
> --
> Julian Vrieslander

Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your
basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the
lines and start working.

Dimitri

On Aug 20, 2:59*pm, "Dimitri" > wrote:

>
> Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your
> basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the
> lines and start working.
>
> Dimitri


You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.

Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.

That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.

So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.


go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous
chefs.

On 8/20/2010 5:58 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.
>
>
> go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous
> chefs.
>

It is just like landscape design or hairstyling, there are some things
that a school just can not teach you.

Becca

On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote:

> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling.......

On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling?

nb

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:04:49 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton > wrote:
>
>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling.......
>
>On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling?
>
>nb

In the US one can get a cosmotologist/hairdresser license by being
sponsored by a shop owner, passing a simple test, and paying the fee.
It's more difficult to get a motor vehical operator's license. It's a
lot more difficult to obtain a barber's license... nowadays there are
very few licensed barbers. Unfortunately one doesn't need any kind of
documentation to prepare food commercially... most people who prepare
our food are illiterate... the business owners are educated and need
permits but the food workers don't need to be able to read and write
and most cannot. The typical cook's job is extremely repetative, it's
best that they are not educated.

On 8/20/2010 8:04 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2010-08-21, Ema > wrote:
>
>> It is just like landscape design or hairstyling.......
> On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling?
>
> nb

Having a license means you learned the bones and muscles in the head, it
does not mean you are a good hair stylist. You have to be an artist to
be good, this is something books can not teach you.

Becca

ImStillMags wrote:
>
> You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
> teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
> make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
> and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
> cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.
>
> Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
> is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.
>
> That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
> cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
> never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
> the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
> a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
> ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.
>
> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.

This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and
degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a
degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked
before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good.

But college is about a lot more than the point skills in the major and
those other aspects end up making more and more difference as the years
go on. People who never went to get that degree don't like that.

Appenticeships are for technicians and skilled laborers. University is
for professionals engineers and scientists. To my engineering biased
view this should map - Apprenticeships are for prep cooks and line
cooks. University is for professionals chefs, menu designers and
culinary experimenters.

On 8/20/2010 9:03 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
>> teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
>> make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
>> and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
>> cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.
>>
>> Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
>> is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.
>>
>> That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
>> cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
>> never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
>> the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
>> a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
>> ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.
>>
>> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
>> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
>> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.
>
> This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and
> degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a
> degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked
> before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good.
>
> But college is about a lot more than the point skills in the major and
> those other aspects end up making more and more difference as the years
> go on. People who never went to get that degree don't like that.
>
> Appenticeships are for technicians and skilled laborers. University is
> for professionals engineers and scientists. To my engineering biased
> view this should map - Apprenticeships are for prep cooks and line
> cooks. University is for professionals chefs, menu designers and
> culinary experimenters.

Then we have doctors, who after completing many years of university,
then start their apprenticeship.

"J. Clarke" wrote:
>
>Then we have doctors, who after completing many years of university,
>then start their apprenticeship.

No, they complete an internship.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote:

> ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
>> teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
>> make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
>> and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
>> cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.
>>
>> Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
>> is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.
>>
>> That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
>> cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
>> never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
>> the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
>> a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
>> ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.
>>
>> So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
>> great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
>> it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.
>
> This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and
> degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a
> degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked
> before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good.

i went to a trade school before getting my programmer gig. it's unclear
how much that had to do with my hiring, though - they (arlington co., va,
government) seemed to use IBM's programming aptitude test as their
screening device at that time. that was in the 80's.

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:

> i went to a trade school before getting my programmer gig. it's
> unclear how much that had to do with my hiring, though - they
> (arlington co., va, government) seemed to use IBM's programming
> aptitude test as their screening device at that time. that was in
> the 80's.

I had to take that test to get into programming school, having
graduated from there was good enough to get me employed.

nancy

On 2010-08-20, Julian Vrieslander > wrote:
> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

When reading this thread, recalled noticing a Frontline episode on
for-profit schools. I watched it awhile ago. Damn scary stuff!

http://video.pbs.org/video/1485280975/#

The really scary parallel I noticed was the federal student loan situation.

"This debt is almost impossible to escape. [...] If you default on a
federal student loan, you will be hounded for life. [...] It is the
most collectable kind of debt there is. It is non-dischargable in
bankruptcy, they will garnish your wages, they will intercept your tax
refunds, they will sue you in court, you become ineligible for federal
employment or any other kind of federal benefit, and many states are
now piggy-backing those prohibitions...."

The piece went on to say this federal student loan debt is beginning
to become huge, as in 750 BILLION $$!! It's beginning to become the
same looming specter as the bank bailouts. Oh swell, another one.

You nurses here should be appalled at what it was giving $30K 12 mos
nursing licenses for. The poor girls couldn't get jobs cuz they had
no real hospital time. One nurse said the psychiatric rotation
consisted of a weekend at a Scientology site!! Another said the
only pediatric rotation was a day care center!! I hope the girls sue!

Now, sub all these scams off to the culinary schools that charge
$40-60K fer 2 yrs and the grad can only get a job starting at min wage
cuz (s)he is competing with illegal immigrant or min wage labor.
Those loans keep growing! One student said her original $60K loan was
now $100K.

Gawd, I'm glad I'm old!

nb

In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> On 2010-08-20, Julian Vrieslander > wrote:
> > Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>
> When reading this thread, recalled noticing a Frontline episode on
> for-profit schools. I watched it awhile ago. Damn scary stuff!
>
> http://video.pbs.org/video/1485280975/#
>
> The really scary parallel I noticed was the federal student loan situation.
>
> "This debt is almost impossible to escape. [...] If you default on a
> federal student loan, you will be hounded for life. [...] It is the
> most collectable kind of debt there is. It is non-dischargable in
> bankruptcy, they will garnish your wages, they will intercept your tax
> refunds, they will sue you in court, you become ineligible for federal
> employment or any other kind of federal benefit, and many states are
> now piggy-backing those prohibitions...."
>
> The piece went on to say this federal student loan debt is beginning
> to become huge, as in 750 BILLION $$!! It's beginning to become the
> same looming specter as the bank bailouts. Oh swell, another one.

This was the part of the article that was most disturbing to me. The
author also discovered that many of the culinary school loans were being
marketed by financial entities associated with Goldman Sachs and other
Wall Street megacorps. The same ones who made monster profits from
mortgages sold to buyers who had no realistic chance to repay them, and
then sticking taxpayers with the bill when the loans went into default.

They are apparently still at this game. Of course, there are some
politicians in the US who think that these problems are easily solved.
All we have to do is reduce the regulations on these scoundrels and give
them more tax breaks.

--
Julian Vrieslander

On 2010-08-22, Julian Vrieslander > wrote:


> marketed by financial entities associated with Goldman Sachs and other
> Wall Street megacorps. The same ones who made monster profits from
> mortgages sold to buyers who had no realistic chance to repay them, and
> then sticking taxpayers with the bill when the loans went into default.

> They are apparently still at this game.

It's precisely the same game and the outcome will also be the same.

nb

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:13:42 -0700, Julian Vrieslander wrote:

> In article >,
> notbob > wrote:
>
>> On 2010-08-20, Julian Vrieslander > wrote:
>>> Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.
>>
>> When reading this thread, recalled noticing a Frontline episode on
>> for-profit schools. I watched it awhile ago. Damn scary stuff!
>>
>> http://video.pbs.org/video/1485280975/#
>>
>> The really scary parallel I noticed was the federal student loan situation.
>>
>> "This debt is almost impossible to escape. [...] If you default on a
>> federal student loan, you will be hounded for life. [...] It is the
>> most collectable kind of debt there is. It is non-dischargable in
>> bankruptcy, they will garnish your wages, they will intercept your tax
>> refunds, they will sue you in court, you become ineligible for federal
>> employment or any other kind of federal benefit, and many states are
>> now piggy-backing those prohibitions...."
>>
>> The piece went on to say this federal student loan debt is beginning
>> to become huge, as in 750 BILLION $$!! It's beginning to become the
>> same looming specter as the bank bailouts. Oh swell, another one.
>
> This was the part of the article that was most disturbing to me. The
> author also discovered that many of the culinary school loans were being
> marketed by financial entities associated with Goldman Sachs and other
> Wall Street megacorps. The same ones who made monster profits from
> mortgages sold to buyers who had no realistic chance to repay them, and
> then sticking taxpayers with the bill when the loans went into default.
>
> They are apparently still at this game. Of course, there are some
> politicians in the US who think that these problems are easily solved.
> All we have to do is reduce the regulations on these scoundrels and give
> them more tax breaks.

for republicans, tax cuts are the universal solvent. times are good? then
the government doesn't need the money. times are bad? then people need to
keep more of their income.

it's a reverse catch -22.

your pal,
milo

"blake murphy" > wrote

> for republicans, tax cuts are the universal solvent. times are good?
> then
> the government doesn't need the money. times are bad? then people need
> to
> keep more of their income.
>
> it's a reverse catch -22.
>
> your pal,
> milo

The government always needs money. More and more of it.
I've not verified what is below but I've seen similar numbers in the past.


From another newsgroup:
A postage stamp in year 1950 was 3 cents; in year 2008, it costs 42
cents (1,400% inflation = 4.74% per year for 58 consecutive years).

A gallon of 90 Octane full-service gasoline cost 25 cents in 1950; as
of AUG 2008 it costs about $3.84 (1,536% inflation = 4.91% per year
for 58 consecutive years).

A house in 1959 cost $14,100; as of AUG-2008, the median home price is
$213,000 (1,511% inflation = 4.88% per year for 58 consecutive years).

A dental crown in year 1990 cost $200; as of AUG-2008, it costs $1,100
(550% inflation = 11.3% per year for 18 consecutive years).

Monthly government Medicare insurance premiums paid by seniors was
$5.30 in 1970; as of 2008, it is $96.40 (1,819% inflation = 11.34% per
year for 28 consecutive years; up 70% in the past 5 years);

Several generations ago a person worked 1.4 months per year to pay for
government; as of 2008, the average person works 5 months per year to
pay taxes;

In the past, one wage-earner families lived well and built savings
with minimal debt, many paying off their home and college, and
educating children without loans. How about today?

Based on that, what do you really think the real inflation rate is ?
What ever it is, it is too high, and it is likely to get worse.
Already, inflation has been positive for 52 consecutive years (since
year 1956):

U.S. nation-wide debt has grown from 100% of GDP in year 1956 to 420%
of GDP in year 2009, and money is being created as debt at a ratio of
9-to-1 of debt-to-reserves, creating a situation where 90%-to-95% of
all money in existence exists as debt.
Where will the money come from to merely pay the interest on that
debt, when that money does not yet exist?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Based on that, what do you really think the real inflation rate is ?

Whatever the rate really is it started longer ago than that and had
specific points when it accelerated. The first change in the rate of
dollar to gold was made by President Andrew Jackson.

1863 the US Mint stopped making half cents. They weren't worth spending
any more. A year later the US Mint switched cents from the old size
that was a bit larger than a quarter to the new size that's a bit larger
than a dime. The reason was inflation had already happened. This
caused almost no change in the rate of inflation.

In 1934 the US Mint stopped making gold coins and the government pulled
all it could out of circulation collecting as many as they could
sending officers to banks. Same reason. At this point all of the gold
is still there in the vault.

In 1964 the US Mint stopped making silver coins and started pulling all
that they could from circulation. Any coins transferred from banks to
the federal reserve system are still filtered for silver ones. Same
reason. The silver has since all been sold as bullion.

In 1982 the US Mint switched the all copper cents (technically a bronze
alloy) to zinc with a copper coating. I don't think they filter the
1982 and before cents as I still see a lot ot them. Same reason.

If you tracked inflation since 1863 when they dropped the half cent
because inflation had made it not worth carrying they would now drop all
coins but the dollar. Yet folks say that dropping the cent would
"cause" inflation.