In article >,
Ran? at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>In article >,
> Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
>
>> Ran? at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>> > So, I guess we shouldn't even try to empathize. He's
>> right! *snort*
>>
>> As a Christian, I'd rather take steps to alleviate other
>> people's hunger than artificially induce some of my own.
>> Fasting doesn't do anything to fix the hunger problem; it just
>> makes some Christians feel more pious, sacrificial or close to
>> Christ's mission.
>
> And yet, it was Jesus who taught "When you fast" rather than if you
>fast. How presumptuous of you to assume that people who fast aren't
>doing anything else, though.

Well, consider the source.

ObFatTuesday: I have heard enough about the wonders of paczki (sp) to
wish they were available out where I lived. But my church had a pancake
supper because 1) we are Anglican after all and 2) it's easy for a couple
of people to put together. One of the local parishes covers multiple
bases by having gumbo and pancakes - they have some experienced gumbo
chefs because they always serve gumbo for their monthly "free meal" for the
poor. Not sure if they have donuts as well .

ObFood: got a lot of baby broccoli in the farm box, so it might be
broccoli and cheese pie time at last!
--

Ranée at Arabian Knits wrote:
>
> And really, Jesus was only telling
> people to fast because it was a cultural custom.

I thought that while he was alive he managed to keep his followers from
fasting but he understood that once he was gone he would no longer be
able to stop them. Sounds to me like it was a topic he wanted to
prepare folks for but not one so important as to make rules about it.
So later generations made up rules about it because that's what happens
in organized reading.

That's how I understood it when I read the New Testament as a member of
another religion learning comparative religion. I don't know how much I
missed doing it that way.

The holiday ties in with the agricultural year. A time to celebrate
that your family supplies lasted the winter and no one starved to death
this year. A time to rest before it was time to plant the new crops.

What I don't get is calling a meat-free diet a fast. It triggers a
language barrier inside my head like calling flesh cut from the bones of
an animal that happens to be a fish not meat.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:30:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
> wrote:

> That's how I understood it when I read the New Testament as a member of
> another religion learning comparative religion.

People like you people are way too tolerant.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Ran�e at Arabian Knits wrote:
>
>> And really, Jesus was only telling
>>people to fast because it was a cultural custom.
>
>
> I thought that while he was alive he managed to keep his followers from
> fasting but he understood that once he was gone he would no longer be
> able to stop them. Sounds to me like it was a topic he wanted to
> prepare folks for but not one so important as to make rules about it.
> So later generations made up rules about it because that's what happens
> in organized reading.
>
> That's how I understood it when I read the New Testament as a member of
> another religion learning comparative religion. I don't know how much I
> missed doing it that way.
>
> The holiday ties in with the agricultural year. A time to celebrate
> that your family supplies lasted the winter and no one starved to death
> this year. A time to rest before it was time to plant the new crops.
>
> What I don't get is calling a meat-free diet a fast. It triggers a
> language barrier inside my head like calling flesh cut from the bones of
> an animal that happens to be a fish not meat.

The English word "meat" originally meant any food one ate, not just
animal flesh.

See Genesis 1:29
--
JL

M. JL Esq. wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> What I don't get is calling a meat-free diet a fast. It triggers a
>> language barrier inside my head like calling flesh cut from the bones of
>> an animal that happens to be a fish not meat.
>
> The English word "meat" originally meant any food one ate, not just
> animal flesh.
>
> See Genesis 1:29

Thanks! That puts the modern meat-free interpretation based on a
mistranslation. Interesting.

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> M. JL Esq. wrote:
>
>>Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What I don't get is calling a meat-free diet a fast. It triggers a
>>>language barrier inside my head like calling flesh cut from the bones of
>>>an animal that happens to be a fish not meat.
>>
>>The English word "meat" originally meant any food one ate, not just
>>animal flesh.
>>
>>See Genesis 1:29
>
>
> Thanks! That puts the modern meat-free interpretation based on a
> mistranslation. Interesting.

Jesus was a Jew, his understanding of "fasting" was informed by that
fact. Unless you think he spent some time in Tibet or on a UFO

Hebrews fast & repent. Both literally and symbolically, giving over a
whole lunar month to it iirc. Analogous to and some claim as the
inspiration for the Islamic Ramadan.

The Christian interpretation is ....more attenuated. Refined to
sophistry allowing some to eat but not others. Dispensations & etc.

What is "food"?

And that from a mediaeval or worse perspective on nutrition.

"In so far as meat and drink are transmuted in us daily into Spiritual
substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass."



--
JL

In article >,
Ran? at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>In article >,
> (Charlotte L. Blackmer) wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Ran? at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>> >In article >,
>> > Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ran? at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>> >> > So, I guess we shouldn't even try to empathize. He's
>> >> right! *snort*
>> >>
>> >> As a Christian, I'd rather take steps to alleviate other
>> >> people's hunger than artificially induce some of my own.
>> >> Fasting doesn't do anything to fix the hunger problem; it just
>> >> makes some Christians feel more pious, sacrificial or close to
>> >> Christ's mission.
>> >
>> > And yet, it was Jesus who taught "When you fast" rather than if you
>> >fast. How presumptuous of you to assume that people who fast aren't
>> >doing anything else, though.
>>
>> Well, consider the source.
>
> I didn't know anything about the source except that he was
>sanctimonious and judgmental, and had little knowledge about what the
>doctrines of Christian fasting were.

Well, he did "distinguish" himself on RFC a while back for doing a
"Superior Dance" over other posters on the subject of NYC restaurants.

>After all, it's only about making
>some Christians _feel_ more pious, sacrificial or close to Christ's
>mission. It has nothing to do with obedience, true sacrifice, spiritual
>discipline, penitence, prayer, or actually following Christ's mission to
>serve the poor. It's just a show. And really, Jesus was only telling
>people to fast because it was a cultural custom. Obviously with no
>meaning. Certainly not commanded by God. Sheesh.

Yeah, on a religious board I'm on, I'm glad that we have SO FAR avoided
the annual threads where conservative evangelical Protestants feel the
need to pass judgement on the numerous Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican posters
for their Lenten disciplines. False binary choices (as above), a poor
understanding of "the big picture" of abstinence/almsgiving/study/service,
and just plain pure-D assholishness (again, as above).

> ObFood: French Farmer's Soup for Amira's birthday dinner. She chose
>it.

ObFood: Up at our retreat center, "The Bishop's Ranch", all weekend.
It's in the middle of Sonoma County farmland and has fresh, delicious
local/seasonal as much as possible food. I was delighted that I finally
had cash surplus to other requirements sufficient to buy their cookbook,
"The Abundant Table". The previous two times I was up there were right
after I unexpectedly lost jobs.

Lunch today was butternut squash enchiladas, a rice-cheese-veggies
concoction called Fiesta Rice, "Mexican coleslaw" (had jicama), and
guacamole and chips. Lemonade on the table.

The sign on the road promising EGGS turned out to be a bust, though; I
should have tried yesterday afternoon when we went into town for icecream
at the Downtown Bakery and Creamery during our free time, as the shop may
have actually been open during high "tourist time".



--

On Mar 12, 1:39*pm, Ran e at Arabian Knits >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *Doug Freyburger > wrote:
>
> > What I don't get is calling a meat-free diet a fast. *It triggers a
> > language barrier inside my head like calling flesh cut from the bones of
> > an animal that happens to be a fish not meat.
>
> * *The fast is from meat and there are days within the season that are
> strict fasts. *It is shorthand. *As for the fish counting, it has to do
> with the language canon law was written in, actually. *Meat meant land
> animal. *Technically, frogs, snails and insects are licit for abstention
> days.

And, for Roman Catholics in the area downriver from Detroit, by
special dispensation: muskrat

http://www.catholic.org/national/nat...y.php?id=23328

Cindy Hamilton

Ranee at Arabian Knits wrote:
> In article >,
> "M. JL Esq." > wrote:
>
>
>>The Christian interpretation is ....more attenuated. Refined to
>>sophistry allowing some to eat but not others. Dispensations & etc.
>
>
> Yes, allowing sick or injured people and pregnant or nursing women,
> the elderly and small children to eat. I can see how that could be seen
> as sophistry.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee

I was referring to "Papal Dispensations" that were, at least in the
past, routinely granted to the healthy, rich and powerful Catholics,
with an emphasis on the curia exempting them from the requirement to fast.

But even more than who gets to eat and who does not i find the idea of
what constitutes fasting and what does not of more interest than who is
or is not doing it.

But then i know a couple of people who consider themselves vegetarians
but eat chicken and fish.

And i had one elderly relative, long since deceased, who while a
vegetarian, bought soy products that were manufactured to look and taste
like meat.

"Loma Linda" was the brand name iirc and i can recall soy (tofu) pork
chops & bacon.

http://www.worthingtonfoods.com/bran...on/about.shtml
--
JL