http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503

What a shame!

--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm "not"

On May 3, 11:17*pm, James Silverton >
wrote:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...s-salt-doesnt-...
>
> What a shame!
>
> --
>
> James Silverton, Potomac
>
> I'm "not"
>

It was a British doctor who reported (fraudulently, it turned out)
that vaccination causes autism. Do they have a thing over there?

I know from personal experience that my sodium intake influences my
blood pressure. Moreover, high salt makes my legs and hands get
uncomfortably puffy. Furosemide can ameliorate that, but then a hose
can put out a fire. For me, avoiding is better than fixing.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>
> What a shame!
>
> James Silverton, Potomac
>
>
A better article to look at is this statement from the author reuters is
referring to:
http://newsatjama.jama.com/2011/05/0...t-restriction/ .

It's very interesting that restricting salt may raise blood pressure rather
than lowering it.

Kent

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>
> What a shame!
>
> --
>
>
> James Silverton, Potomac
>
AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or high
blood pressure.

For years (I'm talking back in the 1980's) I was cooking low-salt food for
my mother because the doctors said salt would raise her blood pressure.
False! Okay, it taught me to use herbs and spices in creative ways. That's
a good thing But the salt itself wasn't bad for her. And all the herbs
in the world won't make otherwise bland food (think potatoes and pasta)
taste good without a little sprinkling of salt.

Jill

On May 4, 9:36*am, Janet > wrote:
> In article <2679ab64-12ee-427e-8db8-
> >, says...
>
>
>
> > On May 3, 11:17*pm, James Silverton >
> > wrote:
> > >http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...s-salt-doesnt-....
>
> > It was a British doctor who reported (fraudulently, it turned out)
> > that vaccination causes autism. Do they have a thing over there?
>
> * The salt review comes from Belgium, not Britain. But you might just care
> to consider that after the Dr you refer to had been discredited and
> obliged to resign in Britain, he moved to the USA which allowed him to
> continue *promoting his discredited crap there for years until Britain
> removed *his license to practice medicine.

I regret my wide-of-the-mark and in any case unwarranted comment. I'd
like to think that the late hour "made me do it".

I don't think that it matters much that Dr. Wakefield continued to
practice, in the US or anywhere else. Once these get started, they
take on a life of their own. A case in point is the supposed link
between dietary aluminum and Altzheimer's disease. A paper published
in the 1960s claimed that autopsies of brains of Alzheimer's patients
turned up higher than normal titers of aluminum. There was never any
indication of cause, merely association. After much study in other
laboratories, it was shown sometime in the 1970s that the apparent
connection was the result of contamination by the laboratory apparatus
used. Nevertheless, the notion persists nearly 50 years later. I hear
it expressed by people who were born after the definitive debunking. I
predict that 100 years from now, children will die because their
parents withheld vaccination for fear of autism. And oh yeah: Obama
was born in Kenya and the moon landings were faked.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On May 4, 7:26*am, "jmcquown" > wrote:
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
>
> ...>http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...s-salt-doesnt-...
>
> > What a shame!
>
> > --
>
> > James Silverton, Potomac
>
> AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or high
> blood pressure.


The report acknowledges salt's affect on blood pressure. It finds no
link to vascular health.

> For years (I'm talking back in the 1980's) I was cooking low-salt food for
> my mother because the doctors said salt would raise her blood pressure.
> False! ...

False for her perhaps, but true for me. In my late 40s, my doctor
prescribed medicine to reduce my blood pressure. A few years later, I
was hospitalized for a week, and my blood-pressure medicine was
withheld. Nevertheless, my blood pressure remained low. I ask my
doctor about that, and he said the the low-salt diet I was on made the
pills unnecessary. I was furious and let him know it. I eliminated
added salt from my diet at home and check my pressure regularly. I
take pills only when it rises. It rises when I eat out. In summer,
when I sweat a bit, I can tolerate more salt without my pressure
rising. (I know when I need more salt; a pinch tastes sweet rather
than salty.)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can
get.

jmcquown wrote:
>
> AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or high
> blood pressure.

It helps the symptoms but does nothing to help the cause. Salt makes
the body retain water so lowering salt is supposed to reduce water
retention. The problem with that reasoning is salt is not the only
trigger for water retention. Avoiding salt is not a bad thing but it's
like taking aspirin to deal with daily head aches. It does not address
the cause.

On Wed, 4 May 2011 07:09:53 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins >
wrote:

> oh yeah: Obama was born in Kenya and the moon landings were faked.

And Elivis is still alive and performing in Las Vegas.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jerry Avins wrote:
>
> I
> predict that 100 years from now, children will die because their
> parents withheld vaccination for fear of autism.

The problem is vaccinations are a social issue. It is possible for a
family who declined to get vaccinated to become infected and then kill
someone not yet vaccinated because vaccinations come on a regular
schedule.

Declining vaccinations can't kill my granddaughters because they now
have all of the usual ones. But I have future great-grandchildren to
worry about. Screw any moron who refuses vaccination. I care about any
children they lose but I don't sympathize with the adults who make that
decision.

> And oh yeah: Obama
> was born in Kenya and the moon landings were faked.

Those cube reflector mirrors on the moon are faked, too. Conspiracy
theory loons ...

Kent wrote:
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>>
>> What a shame!
>>
>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>
>>
> A better article to look at is this statement from the author reuters
> is referring to:
> http://newsatjama.jama.com/2011/05/0...t-restriction/
> .
> It's very interesting that restricting salt may raise blood pressure
> rather than lowering it.
>
> Kent

Post hoc ergo propter hoc - I don't think anyone has shown a causal
relationship there. To put it another way:

That some people in this study had a lower salt intake but a higher
incidence of heart attack does not prove that a lower salt intake causes
heart attacks.

-S-


-S-

jmcquown wrote:
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>>
>> What a shame!
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>
> AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or
> high blood pressure.
>
> For years (I'm talking back in the 1980's) I was cooking low-salt
> food for my mother because the doctors said salt would raise her
> blood pressure. False! Okay, it taught me to use herbs and spices in
> creative ways. That's a good thing But the salt itself wasn't
> bad for her. And all the herbs in the world won't make otherwise
> bland food (think potatoes and pasta) taste good without a little
> sprinkling of salt.
> Jill

IMHO, the evil is processed food. Such food often contains high amounts
of salt, but I suspect (note: I don't claim, I suspect) that there are
other factors at work in highly processed foods. A real study of this
issue would have to take two groups of people on healthy diets that
included sufficient fresh fruits and vegetables and wild-caught meat,
fish, and fowl. Under such circumstances, I suspect that what you found
to be true would continue to be true - higher salt consumption is not
evil.

-S-

"Steve Freides" > wrote in message
...
> Kent wrote:
>> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>>>
>>> What a shame!
>>>
>>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>>
>>>
>> A better article to look at is this statement from the author reuters
>> is referring to:
>> http://newsatjama.jama.com/2011/05/0...t-restriction/
>> .
>> It's very interesting that restricting salt may raise blood pressure
>> rather than lowering it.
>>
>> Kent
>
> Post hoc ergo propter hoc - I don't think anyone has shown a causal
> relationship there. To put it another way:
>
> That some people in this study had a lower salt intake but a higher
> incidence of heart attack does not prove that a lower salt intake causes
> heart attacks.
>
> -S-
>
>
The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and therefore
your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find the actual text,
I'll report back.

Kent

Kent wrote:

> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
> carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
> the actual text, I'll report back.

I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which is
the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the diuretic. I
would be interested in your cite for your observation about hypovolemia
since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood volume.

--
Dave
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

"Steve Freides" > wrote in message
...
> Kent wrote:
>> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>>>
>>> What a shame!
>>>
>>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>>
>>>
>> A better article to look at is this statement from the author reuters
>> is referring to:
>> http://newsatjama.jama.com/2011/05/0...t-restriction/
>> .
>> It's very interesting that restricting salt may raise blood pressure
>> rather than lowering it.
>>
>> Kent
>
> Post hoc ergo propter hoc - I don't think anyone has shown a causal
> relationship there. To put it another way:
>
> That some people in this study had a lower salt intake but a higher
> incidence of heart attack does not prove that a lower salt intake causes
> heart attacks.
>
> -S-
>
>
I think your point is a very good one.

This article is an editorial review of a study done by someone else. The
original study was referred to only by where it was published, the Journal
of the American Medical Association. I can't find the original study.
However, Jan A. Staessen, M.D. PhD, has written many articles on
hypertension and its cause and treatment. What he's saying is worth looking
at seriously.

Kent

In article >,
"Steve Freides" > wrote:

> Kent wrote:

> > It's very interesting that restricting salt may raise blood pressure
> > rather than lowering it.

> Post hoc ergo propter hoc - I don't think anyone has shown a causal
> relationship there. To put it another way:
>
> That some people in this study had a lower salt intake but a higher
> incidence of heart attack does not prove that a lower salt intake causes
> heart attacks.

In fact, I have incontrovertible proof that it actually works the other
way, that fatal heart attacks cause a lowering of salt intake. This can
be directly observed. Watch someone die of a heart attack. Observe how
much salt they consume after death.

:-(

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
news
> Kent wrote:
>
>> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
>> carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
>> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
>> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
>> the actual text, I'll report back.
>
> I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which is
> the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the diuretic.
> I would be interested in your cite for your observation about hypovolemia
> since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
> fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood volume.
>
> --
> Dave
>
Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains that.
When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume, and
your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.

The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has a
direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.

Kent

"Andy" > wrote in message ...
> "Kent" > wrote:
>
>> Eating less salt doesn't cut heart risks: study
>
>
> And I'll add that any medical scientist claiming "Eating less salt doesn't
> cut heart risks" is purely conducting "ghost town" medical research of no
> use, when compared to curing AIDS!!!
>
> If the man was worth his "salt," he'd participate in something of far more
> vital importance, like joining the largest hunt in a cure to save
> humanity.
>
> Who's gonna thank him for saving 1,000 lives a year over salt vs. saving
> the human race?
>
> Andy
>
>
Before your oral ejaculation you might have looked at Jan Staessen's
credentials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...%20Staessen%20

He has authored 255 articles in the National Institutes of Health or NIH
database, largely about the hemodynamics of the cardiovascular system. I'd
suggest you reread his comments in the JAMA news link I listed above. JAMA
doesn't publish editorial comments about medical research unless the
question is legitimate. The author of the editorial is always highly,
highly, credentialed.

Kent



Kent

On May 4, 5:09*pm, "Kent" > wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
>
> news >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Kent wrote:
>
> >> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
> >> carefully. *I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
> >> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
> >> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
> >> the actual text, I'll report back.
>
> > I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which is
> > the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the diuretic.
> > I would be interested in your cite for your observation about hypovolemia
> > since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
> > fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood volume.
>
> > --
> > Dave
>
> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains that.

"Andy" > wrote in message ...
> "Kent" > wrote:
>
>> However, Jan A. Staessen, M.D. PhD, has written many articles on
>> hypertension and its cause and treatment. What he's saying is worth
>> looking at seriously.
>>
>> Kent
>
>
> You comment on a doctor but you don't have PhD. credentials. You're only
> Kent.
>
> When people on rfc who can't even cook start spewing medical knowledge
> of which they have none and then continue an unworthy debate, I declare
> BULLSHIT!!!
>
> In my experience any medical papers put to rec.food.cooking in the past
> as ground-breaking, proof positive, can best be cut to the chase of
> honest clinical evidence by simply reading the last few paragraphs.
>
> I don't know of a single medical research study posted here at
> rec.food.cooking that's ever won the Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine.
>
> Andy
>
>
And, and, and, what is the "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine"??

"Jerry Avins" > wrote in message
...
On May 4, 5:09 pm, "Kent" > wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
>
> news >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Kent wrote:
>
> >> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
> >> carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
> >> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
> >> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
> >> the actual text, I'll report back.
>
> > I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which
> > is
> > the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the
> > diuretic.
> > I would be interested in your cite for your observation about
> > hypovolemia
> > since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
> > fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood
> > volume.
>
> > --
> > Dave
>
> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains
> that.
> When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume,
> and
> your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
> clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
> acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
> chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.
>
> The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
> wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
> hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
> hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has a
> direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.

Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.

Jerry
>
>
This is fairly high brow stuff as far as my head is concerned. I think what
Dr. Jan Staessen is saying, however, is that lowering your salt intake
doesn't decreases the sodium level in your blood and your blood volume stays
the same. The latter determines your total blood volume, which in turn
determines how high your blood pressure is.

The diuretic removes electrolytes that are already there, and your body
decreases the total blood volume. Diet does not affect how much goes into
the extracellular fluid, unless you're already low in sodium or potassium.

Look again at this. I think this is a good statement of where this issue is.
http://newsatjama.jama.com/2011/05/0...t-restriction/

Kent

On May 4, 9:09*am, Jerry Avins > wrote:
> On May 4, 9:36*am, Janet > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <2679ab64-12ee-427e-8db8-
> > >, says...
>
> > > On May 3, 11:17*pm, James Silverton >
> > > wrote:
> > > >http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...s-salt-doesnt-...
>
> > > It was a British doctor who reported (fraudulently, it turned out)
> > > that vaccination causes autism. Do they have a thing over there?
>
> > * The salt review comes from Belgium, not Britain. But you might just care
> > to consider that after the Dr you refer to had been discredited and
> > obliged to resign in Britain, he moved to the USA which allowed him to
> > continue *promoting his discredited crap there for years until Britain
> > removed *his license to practice medicine.
>
> I regret my wide-of-the-mark and in any case unwarranted comment. I'd
> like to think that the late hour "made me do it".
>
> I don't think that it matters much that Dr. Wakefield continued to
> practice, in the US or anywhere else. Once these get started, they
> take on a life of their own. A case in point is the supposed link
> between dietary aluminum and Altzheimer's disease. A paper published
> in the 1960s claimed that autopsies of brains of Alzheimer's patients
> turned up higher than normal titers of aluminum. There was never any
> indication of cause, merely association. After much study in other
> laboratories, it was shown sometime in the 1970s that the apparent
> connection was the result of contamination by the laboratory apparatus
> used. Nevertheless, the notion persists nearly 50 years later. I hear
> it expressed by people who were born after the definitive debunking. I
> predict that 100 years from now, children will die because their
> parents withheld vaccination for fear of autism. And oh yeah: Obama
> was born in Kenya and the moon landings were faked.

I would love to see photos of the tortured, killed and mutilated body
of Wakefield, taken by a guy whose child had died because (s)he wasn't
vaccinated.
>
> Jerry
>
--Bryan

On 5/05/2011 7:28 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> On May 4, 5:09 pm, > wrote:
>> "Dave > wrote in message
>>
>> news >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Kent wrote:
>>
>>>> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
>>>> carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
>>>> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
>>>> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
>>>> the actual text, I'll report back.
>>
>>> I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which is
>>> the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the diuretic.
>>> I would be interested in your cite for your observation about hypovolemia
>>> since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
>>> fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood volume.
>>
>>> --
>>> Dave
>>
>> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
>> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
>> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
>> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains that.
>> When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume, and
>> your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
>> clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
>> acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
>> chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.
>>
>> The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
>> wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
>> hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
>> hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has a
>> direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.
>
> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>
> Jerry

I have been following a relatively low salt diet for nigh on 40 years. I
just stopped adding it to food at the table and during cooking and also
avoided high salt processed foods. At 73, my blood pressure, when tested
some 6 months ago, was a nice steady 120 over 80. My family doctor
couldn't believe because I am a tad on the overweight side it so checked
it again with the same result.

Nowadays I find food in restaurants to be way too salty. Often all I can
taste is salt. My wife and I avoid most processed foods for the same
reason. My palate has long been adapted to my low salt diet and I can
taste even foods considered bland.

http://www.saltmatters.org/site/

Krypsis

On 5/05/2011 4:59 PM, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2011 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Jerry >
> wrote:
>
>> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
>> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>
> Most people would rather just take a pill. You could have told him
> and asked for an appointment with a nutritionist instead.
>
If the doctor fails to advise of the need for potassium supplements, you
can end up quite dead. It has happened and the doctors bury their mistakes.

Krypsis

On 5/05/2011 5:51 PM, Kent wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news
>> On Wed, 4 May 2011 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Jerry >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
>>> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>>
>> Most people would rather just take a pill. You could have told him
>> and asked for an appointment with a nutritionist instead.
>>
>> --
> I don't want to take a diuretic unless other standard anti-hypertensives
> don't work, the ACE inhibitors, Beta Blockers, and Calcium Channel Blockers.
> That's totally a personal opinion, though a question you can raise with your
> anti-hypertensive provider. I worry about potassium depletion. I'd rather
> not have to.
>
> Kent
>
http://www.saltmatters.org/site/

A diet with a reduced level of sodium will achieve your aims with no
nasty side effects. It is however very difficult to live life on a low
sodium diet unless you prepare all your meals from fresh ingredients. We
do that and have benefited from it. My wife is Vietnamese and has
discovered Thai cooking. Asian cooking in general is high in sodium use,
especially in items such as sauces, so she even prepares her own sauces.
I especially like the chilli sauce she prepares. The only problem is
that you must make it in small batches as it doesn't keep.

Krypsis

>
>
>
>
>

On 5/05/2011 12:26 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> On May 4, 7:26 am, > wrote:
>> "James > wrote in message
>>
>> ...>http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...s-salt-doesnt-...
>>
>>> What a shame!
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>
>> AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or high
>> blood pressure.
>
>
> The report acknowledges salt's affect on blood pressure. It finds no
> link to vascular health.
>
>> For years (I'm talking back in the 1980's) I was cooking low-salt food for
>> my mother because the doctors said salt would raise her blood pressure.
>> False! ...
>
> False for her perhaps, but true for me. In my late 40s, my doctor
> prescribed medicine to reduce my blood pressure. A few years later, I
> was hospitalized for a week, and my blood-pressure medicine was
> withheld. Nevertheless, my blood pressure remained low. I ask my
> doctor about that, and he said the the low-salt diet I was on made the
> pills unnecessary. I was furious and let him know it. I eliminated
> added salt from my diet at home and check my pressure regularly. I
> take pills only when it rises. It rises when I eat out. In summer,
> when I sweat a bit, I can tolerate more salt without my pressure
> rising. (I know when I need more salt; a pinch tastes sweet rather
> than salty.)
>
> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can
> get.

Interesting. I find that when I sweat, my sweat isn't salty in the
least. Way back when I was younger, my sweat would sting my eyes.
Nowadays when I'm doing some gardening and sweating profusely, no
stinging. I might add that it takes very little hard work to make me
sweat these days.

Krypsis

On 5/05/2011 3:12 AM, Steve Freides wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>> "James > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7427AG20110503
>>>
>>> What a shame!
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> James Silverton, Potomac
>>>
>> AFAIK salt has never been definitively linked to heart problems or
>> high blood pressure.
>>
>> For years (I'm talking back in the 1980's) I was cooking low-salt
>> food for my mother because the doctors said salt would raise her
>> blood pressure. False! Okay, it taught me to use herbs and spices in
>> creative ways. That's a good thing But the salt itself wasn't
>> bad for her. And all the herbs in the world won't make otherwise
>> bland food (think potatoes and pasta) taste good without a little
>> sprinkling of salt.
>> Jill
>
> IMHO, the evil is processed food. Such food often contains high amounts
> of salt, but I suspect (note: I don't claim, I suspect) that there are
> other factors at work in highly processed foods. A real study of this
> issue would have to take two groups of people on healthy diets that
> included sufficient fresh fruits and vegetables and wild-caught meat,
> fish, and fowl. Under such circumstances, I suspect that what you found
> to be true would continue to be true - higher salt consumption is not
> evil.
>
> -S-
>
>
The only way to conduct a study would be to have one group on a low salt
diet and the other on a high salt diet. That would prove the issue one
way or the other. The reason such a study has never been done is because
it needs to occur over a long period of time and would be unethical to
expect people to subject themselves to a diet that might conceivably
cause their premature death.
In the absence of such a study, the only way researchers have of seeing
the effects/benefits of a low salt diet is to observe native
tribespeople who normally have a low salt diet. The data analysis of 4
isolated populations (Yanomami Indians, Indians from Xingu, rural
population of Kenya, and rural population of Papua, New Guinea) showed
that neither blood pressure elevation with age is inevitable, nor
is the high prevalence of hypertension.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/short/52/1/146

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abc/v80n3/a05v80n3.pdf

Krypsis

On Fri, 06 May 2011 00:24:56 +1000, Krypsis >
wrote:

> On 5/05/2011 4:59 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Wed, 4 May 2011 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Jerry >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
> >> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
> >
> > Most people would rather just take a pill. You could have told him
> > and asked for an appointment with a nutritionist instead.
> >
> If the doctor fails to advise of the need for potassium supplements, you
> can end up quite dead. It has happened and the doctors bury their mistakes.
>
It's not that dire.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Kent wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> news
>> On Wed, 4 May 2011 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
>>> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>>
>> Most people would rather just take a pill. You could have told him
>> and asked for an appointment with a nutritionist instead.
>>
>> --
> I don't want to take a diuretic unless other standard
> anti-hypertensives don't work, the ACE inhibitors, Beta Blockers, and
> Calcium Channel Blockers. That's totally a personal opinion, though a
> question you can raise with your anti-hypertensive provider. I worry
> about potassium depletion. I'd rather not have to.
>
> Kent

1. There's a lot of debate as to how much dietary potassium one ought
to get, anyway. I take 600 mg per day of a supplement even though I
also eat several foods said to be high in potassium on a daily basis - I
was experimenting with supplements to help with muscle cramps I was
experiencing - 300 mg of potassium, 2x/day, and the muscle cramps
stopped completely.

2. Note also that there are foods which are natural diuretics, e.g.,
the asparagus we're discussing in another thread.

3. There are herb-based formulations which you can take for diuretic
effect - here's one I've used in the past

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Streng.../dp/B0011801GS

I've taken it before a weightlifting competition where I need to drop
2-3 lbs. in order to make my desired weight class - works like a charm,
but I only take this under those circumstances and not on a regular
basis so I can't testify as to what it's like to be on it for months or
years on end.

-S-

On Wed, 04 May 2011 13:08:34 -0500, Andy wrote:

> I don't know of a single medical research study posted here at
> rec.food.cooking that's ever won the Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine.
>
> Andy

'nobel peace prize in medicine'? that's amazingly stupid even for you.

blake

On May 5, 10:22*am, Krypsis > wrote:
> On 5/05/2011 7:28 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 4, 5:09 pm, > *wrote:
> >> "Dave > *wrote in message
>
> >>news
>
> >>> Kent wrote:
>
> >>>> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
> >>>> carefully. *I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
> >>>> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
> >>>> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
> >>>> the actual text, I'll report back.
>
> >>> I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which is
> >>> the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the diuretic.
> >>> I would be interested in your cite for your observation about hypovolemia
> >>> since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
> >>> fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood volume.
>
> >>> --
> >>> Dave
>
> >> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
> >> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
> >> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
> >> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains that.
> >> When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume, and
> >> your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
> >> clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
> >> acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
> >> chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.
>
> >> The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
> >> wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
> >> hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
> >> hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has a
> >> direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.
>
> > Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
> > diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>
> > Jerry
>
> I have been following a relatively low salt diet for nigh on 40 years. I
> just stopped adding it to food at the table and during cooking and also
> avoided high salt processed foods. At 73, my blood pressure, when tested
> some 6 months ago, was a nice steady 120 over 80. My family doctor
> couldn't believe because I am a tad on the overweight side it so checked
> it again with the same result.

I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
somewhere
in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
middle-aged, and sedentary.

It's not about the salt.

Cindy Hamilton

On Thu, 5 May 2011 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

> I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> somewhere
> in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> middle-aged, and sedentary.
>
> It's not about the salt.

You're still young, but it will hit you soon.

I have a friend like you. She was the living argument to everything
her Dr warned her against for years, but the chickens are coming home
to roost now.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On May 5, 2:59*am, sf > wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2011 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins >
> wrote:
>
> > Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
> > diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>
> Most people would rather just take a pill. *You could have told him
> and asked for an appointment with a nutritionist instead.

In my naivetè, I simply assumed that "Doctor knows best." That was
long ago.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can
get.

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Thu, 5 May 2011 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > wrote:
>
> > I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> > somewhere
> > in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> > middle-aged, and sedentary.
> >
> > It's not about the salt.
>
> You're still young, but it will hit you soon.


My father is 95. When is it going to hit him? Salt does not affect his
blood pressure. Fat, any kind, does not affect his blood lipids
(cholesterol).

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

In article
>,
Cindy Hamilton > wrote:

> On May 5, 10:22*am, Krypsis > wrote:
> > On 5/05/2011 7:28 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 4, 5:09 pm, > *wrote:
> > >> "Dave > *wrote in message
> >
> > >>news
> >
> > >>> Kent wrote:
> >
> > >>>> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
> > >>>> carefully. *I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
> > >>>> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
> > >>>> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
> > >>>> the actual text, I'll report back.
> >
> > >>> I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which
> > >>> is
> > >>> the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the
> > >>> diuretic.
> > >>> I would be interested in your cite for your observation about
> > >>> hypovolemia
> > >>> since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
> > >>> fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood
> > >>> volume.
> >
> > >>> --
> > >>> Dave
> >
> > >> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
> > >> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
> > >> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
> > >> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains
> > >> that.
> > >> When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume,
> > >> and
> > >> your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
> > >> clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
> > >> acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
> > >> chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.
> >
> > >> The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
> > >> wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
> > >> hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
> > >> hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has
> > >> a
> > >> direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.
> >
> > > Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
> > > diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
> >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > I have been following a relatively low salt diet for nigh on 40 years. I
> > just stopped adding it to food at the table and during cooking and also
> > avoided high salt processed foods. At 73, my blood pressure, when tested
> > some 6 months ago, was a nice steady 120 over 80. My family doctor
> > couldn't believe because I am a tad on the overweight side it so checked
> > it again with the same result.
>
> I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> somewhere
> in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> middle-aged, and sedentary.
>
> It's not about the salt.

As I understand it, as explained by my doctor: For *some* people, it is
"all about the salt". For most folks, though, dietary salt has little to
no effect on blood pressure.

Isaac

On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:56:42 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:

> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 5 May 2011 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> > > somewhere
> > > in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> > > middle-aged, and sedentary.
> > >
> > > It's not about the salt.
> >
> > You're still young, but it will hit you soon.
>
>
> My father is 95. When is it going to hit him? Salt does not affect his
> blood pressure. Fat, any kind, does not affect his blood lipids
> (cholesterol).

Is he morbidly obese too?

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:56:42 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > sf > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 5 May 2011 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> > > > somewhere
> > > > in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> > > > middle-aged, and sedentary.
> > > >
> > > > It's not about the salt.
> > >
> > > You're still young, but it will hit you soon.
> >
> >
> > My father is 95. When is it going to hit him? Salt does not affect his
> > blood pressure. Fat, any kind, does not affect his blood lipids
> > (cholesterol).
>
> Is he morbidly obese too?

No, he's very thin. He eats well, and gets around OK, but slowly. His
knees don't work well.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On Fri, 06 May 2011 08:07:21 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:

> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:56:42 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > sf > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 5 May 2011 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
> > > > > somewhere
> > > > > in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
> > > > > middle-aged, and sedentary.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not about the salt.
> > > >
> > > > You're still young, but it will hit you soon.
> > >
> > >
> > > My father is 95. When is it going to hit him? Salt does not affect his
> > > blood pressure. Fat, any kind, does not affect his blood lipids
> > > (cholesterol).
> >
> > Is he morbidly obese too?
>
> No, he's very thin. He eats well, and gets around OK, but slowly. His
> knees don't work well.

He's obviously a healthy man, otherwise he would have died years ago.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Thu, 05 May 2011 21:06:52 -0700 in rec.food.cooking, isw
> wrote,
>
>As I understand it, as explained by my doctor: For *some* people, it is
>"all about the salt". For most folks, though, dietary salt has little to
>no effect on blood pressure.

Or in other words, it's a genetic trait. Some people are sensitive
to salt and get high blood pressure from it that can kill us. Some
people are not. Which is what makes it so damned offensive when
somebody who doesn't have that problem says "It didn't bother me,
so stop bitching about salt."

On 6/05/2011 2:06 PM, isw wrote:
> In article
> >,
> Cindy > wrote:
>
>> On May 5, 10:22 am, > wrote:
>>> On 5/05/2011 7:28 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 4, 5:09 pm, > wrote:
>>>>> "Dave > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>> news >>>
>>>>>> Kent wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> The author has very substantial credentials. His data should be looked
>>>>>>> carefully. I too have questions. A large fraction of all people being
>>>>>>> treated for hypertension are on a drug that depletes sodium, and
>>>>>>> therefore your blood volume to reduce blood pressure. If I can find
>>>>>>> the actual text, I'll report back.
>>>
>>>>>> I believe that it is potassium, not sodium, which can be depleted which
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the reason potassium supplements are usually Rx'd along with the
>>>>>> diuretic.
>>>>>> I would be interested in your cite for your observation about
>>>>>> hypovolemia
>>>>>> since the target for diuretics is related to a buildup of extracellular
>>>>>> fluid in a person's body, which is not directly connected to blood
>>>>>> volume.
>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>>> Plasma, that portion of blood less the red blood cells, or about 60% by
>>>>> volume, is is part of your extracellular fluid. It has a solute
>>>>> concentration of about 300 mille-osmoles per liter, corresponding to .9%
>>>>> sodium chloride, by weight. That's iso-osmolarity. The body maintains
>>>>> that.
>>>>> When you deplete sodium, as with a diuretic, you decrease blood volume,
>>>>> and
>>>>> your blood pressure drops. You can become sodium depleted, not usually a
>>>>> clinical issue. Hypokalemia, on the other hand, can lead to significant
>>>>> acute cardiac problems. You have to be careful to take your potassium
>>>>> chloride. As you know, you can buy it at your local supermarket.
>>>
>>>>> The side effects of hydrochlorothiazide include hypokalemia[potassium
>>>>> wasting], hypercalcemia, hypomagnesemia, metabolic alkalosis,
>>>>> hyponatremia[sodium wasting], hyperuricemia, hyperglycemia,
>>>>> hypercholesterolemia, and hypertriglyceridemia. As above hypokalemia has
>>>>> a
>>>>> direct affect on cardiac rhythm, and can cause a cardiac catastrophe.
>>>
>>>> Which summarizes why I was so ****ed at my doctor for prescribing a
>>>> diuretic when care with diet would have sufficed.
>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> I have been following a relatively low salt diet for nigh on 40 years. I
>>> just stopped adding it to food at the table and during cooking and also
>>> avoided high salt processed foods. At 73, my blood pressure, when tested
>>> some 6 months ago, was a nice steady 120 over 80. My family doctor
>>> couldn't believe because I am a tad on the overweight side it so checked
>>> it again with the same result.
>>
>> I eat salt like it's going out of style. My blood pressure is
>> somewhere
>> in the 110/70 to 120/80 neighborhood. I'm morbidly obese,
>> middle-aged, and sedentary.
>>
>> It's not about the salt.
>
> As I understand it, as explained by my doctor: For *some* people, it is
> "all about the salt". For most folks, though, dietary salt has little to
> no effect on blood pressure.

The effect is most noticeable over a lifetime of excessive salt
consumption. For most folks, in fact about 90%, there will be a
progressive rise in their blood pressure over their lives. By the time
people are in their 60s and 70s, the damage will have been done and
their blood pressure will have risen to dangerous levels. They will
accept this as normal and nothing could be further from the truth.

As I check around many friends of my own age, nearly all have
significantly high blood pressure with many requiring medication to
reduce it to safe levels. A few have recently had strokes or cerebral
aneurysms that either caused their deaths or crippled them. For one, the
funeral was just two weeks ago.

Only one of my friends has blood pressure lower than mine. Note that he
is a bachelor and has always cooked his own meals from fresh
ingredients. He uses very little in the way of prepackaged and processed
foods. The only exceptions to his regimen are on his weekly golf day
where he dines out for lunch and those occasions when he dines out with
friends.

Because salt consumption has a long term effect over our entire lives,
people, even those in the medical profession, regard increases in blood
pressure as we age to be quite normal. The Menzies Research Institute
has done research into the excesses of salt in our western lifestyles
and this research is ongoing. Their findings contradict this belief.

http://www.saltmatters.org/site/

Krypsis

On 8/05/2011 12:13 PM, David Harmon wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2011 21:06:52 -0700 in rec.food.cooking, isw
> > wrote,
>>
>> As I understand it, as explained by my doctor: For *some* people, it is
>> "all about the salt". For most folks, though, dietary salt has little to
>> no effect on blood pressure.
>
> Or in other words, it's a genetic trait. Some people are sensitive
> to salt and get high blood pressure from it that can kill us. Some
> people are not. Which is what makes it so damned offensive when
> somebody who doesn't have that problem says "It didn't bother me,
> so stop bitching about salt."

The only thing genetic about high blood pressure and the excess use of
salt is that we, as humans, haven't had long enough to build up a
genetic tolerance to excesses of salt in our diets. That might take
millions of years whereas we have only begun to consume salt since the
time where we learnt that it preserves food. Historically, salt was once
a scarce commodity and valuable commodity. That changed with
industrialised production and now salt is plentiful. Directly related to
this is the increased use in food for preservation and latterly as a
flavour enhancer. We simply haven't had time to adapt and we pay the price.

Krypsis