On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:
snip
I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the
>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
>type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>
snip


I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. It's
the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.
Janet US

On Jul 27, 12:52*pm, Janet Bostwick > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, > wrote:
> *I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
> >type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>
> I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. *It's
> the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.

Yes, and the wetness of the dough etc. And over-rising is hardly a
problem - just give it a good kneading and let it rise again.
Following Elizabeth David, I believe in using a minimum starting
amount of yeast (about 1/8 teaspoon of dried yeast to a pound of
flour) with the result that I have very long rising times and quite
often forget about the dough until it has risen and collapsed again.
So many of my loafs have had three (or more) risings with kneadings in
between, and I think they taste better for it. And the bread has a
strong texture which makes it easy to slice thinly and put spreads on.

I used to knead by hand all the way, but these days I use the mixer (a
60-year-old Kenwood in my case) to do the initial mixing and kneading
to the point where the dough is no longer sticky, when I take over and
enjoy the tactility of it all.

LW

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:52:26 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:
>snip
> I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the
>>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
>>type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>>
>snip
>
>
>I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. It's
>the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.
>Janet US

Looks like your using the direct(1 step) method. I make a poolish, as
I said, the day before and let it mature in the fridge overnight. When
I add it to the main mix of dough, I do not knead the two at all, but
merely fold one into the other by hand and allow to rise. Then, rather
than kneading and breaking up the formed bubbles, I gently stretch the
dough, fold it over itself in layers and lay it (covered) on a loaf
form covered with parchment paper. This way nickel- and quarter-sized
holes are easy to obtain. For details, see:

The Breadmaker's Apprentice, p 135 et seq. entitled "Ciabatta"

The same technique works well for Baguettes and the like, and the
poolish method develops a light sour-dough like flavor that is
excellent. No direct method I know of (except for adding vinegar to
the dough) develops the flavor like the 2-step method, starting with a
mature poolish or biga. Hope this explains it.

Alex

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:08:01 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:

> This way nickel- and quarter-sized holes are easy to obtain.

I would consider that a defect, not something to strive for.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

sf wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:08:01 -0500, Chemiker
> > wrote:
>
> > This way nickel- and quarter-sized holes are easy to obtain.
>
> I would consider that a defect, not something to strive for.

Crusty, chewy large pore breads are pretty damned good, and I don't
think they would be as good if they were not large pore.

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:08:01 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:52:26 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:
>>snip
>> I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the
>>>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
>>>type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>>>
>>snip
>>
>>
>>I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. It's
>>the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.
>>Janet US
>
>Looks like your using the direct(1 step) method. I make a poolish, as
>I said, the day before and let it mature in the fridge overnight. When
>I add it to the main mix of dough, I do not knead the two at all, but
>merely fold one into the other by hand and allow to rise. Then, rather
>than kneading and breaking up the formed bubbles, I gently stretch the
>dough, fold it over itself in layers and lay it (covered) on a loaf
>form covered with parchment paper. This way nickel- and quarter-sized
>holes are easy to obtain. For details, see:
>
>The Breadmaker's Apprentice, p 135 et seq. entitled "Ciabatta"
>
>The same technique works well for Baguettes and the like, and the
>poolish method develops a light sour-dough like flavor that is
>excellent. No direct method I know of (except for adding vinegar to
>the dough) develops the flavor like the 2-step method, starting with a
>mature poolish or biga. Hope this explains it.
>
>Alex

That technique may produce the open crumb you seek - along with the
hydration of the dough, of course, but using a mixer will not screw up
the crumb.

One of the most "holey" breads I know - Carol Field's cocodrillo,
spends 17 minute in the mixer and you could drive a truck through the
crumb openings in the finished loaf.

And IMHO, listening to advice from Janet Bostwick about bread baking
will do you even better than reading Reinhart...and that is "The Bread
Baker's Apprentice," by the way.

Boron

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:52:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

> And IMHO, listening to advice from Janet Bostwick about bread baking
> will do you even better than reading Reinhart...and that is "The Bread
> Baker's Apprentice," by the way.

Are you saying Janet is our very own rfc bread guru? KEWL!

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:52:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:08:01 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:52:26 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, Chemiker
> wrote:
>>>snip
>>> I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the
>>>>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
>>>>type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>>>>
>>>snip
>>>
>>>
>>>I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. It's
>>>the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.
>>>Janet US
>>
>>Looks like your using the direct(1 step) method. I make a poolish, as
>>I said, the day before and let it mature in the fridge overnight. When
>>I add it to the main mix of dough, I do not knead the two at all, but
>>merely fold one into the other by hand and allow to rise. Then, rather
>>than kneading and breaking up the formed bubbles, I gently stretch the
>>dough, fold it over itself in layers and lay it (covered) on a loaf
>>form covered with parchment paper. This way nickel- and quarter-sized
>>holes are easy to obtain. For details, see:
>>
>>The Breadmaker's Apprentice, p 135 et seq. entitled "Ciabatta"
>>
>>The same technique works well for Baguettes and the like, and the
>>poolish method develops a light sour-dough like flavor that is
>>excellent. No direct method I know of (except for adding vinegar to
>>the dough) develops the flavor like the 2-step method, starting with a
>>mature poolish or biga. Hope this explains it.
>>
>>Alex
>
>That technique may produce the open crumb you seek - along with the
>hydration of the dough, of course, but using a mixer will not screw up
>the crumb.
>
>One of the most "holey" breads I know - Carol Field's cocodrillo,
>spends 17 minute in the mixer and you could drive a truck through the
>crumb openings in the finished loaf.
>
>And IMHO, listening to advice from Janet Bostwick about bread baking
>will do you even better than reading Reinhart...and that is "The Bread
>Baker's Apprentice," by the way.
>
>Boron

Boron, thank you for saying that, it was kind of you. But I respect
your knowledge and hands on expertise and am in awe of your 'feel' for
the dough.

I can't imagine what would make Chemiker get small crumb results when
he uses a mixer. I can only think that maybe he is making too dry a
dough in the mixer just because he doesn't see the dough clear the
bowl the way he thinks it should and keeps on adding flour? Unless he
is handling too much/too roughly after rise .
Janet US

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:13:10 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:52:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>>And IMHO, listening to advice from Janet Bostwick about bread baking
>>will do you even better than reading Reinhart...and that is "The Bread
>>Baker's Apprentice," by the way.
>>
>>Boron
>
>Boron, thank you for saying that, it was kind of you. But I respect
>your knowledge and hands on expertise and am in awe of your 'feel' for
>the dough.

Our mutual admiration society, madam.
>
>I can't imagine what would make Chemiker get small crumb results when
>he uses a mixer. I can only think that maybe he is making too dry a
>dough in the mixer just because he doesn't see the dough clear the
>bowl the way he thinks it should and keeps on adding flour? Unless he
>is handling too much/too roughly after rise .
>Janet US

Indeed. It is decent hydration, accurate proofing and careful shaping
and handling that makes for the holiest of breads.

Stretch and fold, hand kneading or mixer, preferment, straight yeast,
or sourdough can any and all lead to a good textured loaf if the other
"rules" are followed.

Even NO kneading can lead to a nice holey texture.

Boron

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