On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:11:40 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
> sf wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
> > (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >
> > > As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> > > put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> > > DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> > > An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> > > I never have done this.
> >
> > An inexperienced DYI electrician has a fool for a contractor.
>
> BS.
>
> You don't need experience to do the job safely and properly, all you
> need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
> understand reference material. Despite what union thugs would like you
> to believe it is not brain surgery or even difficult.
>
> A friend needed to replace / upgrade the service on his house, I gave
> him an evening of instruction on how to do the work, he got the permit,
> did the work and the inspector commented that it was one of the neatest
> jobs he had seen.

I won't bother to argue with an arrogant fool.

--

You are what you eat, so avoid fruitcake and nuts.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:27:04 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Buy a new stove but I want to make sure I don't need an electrician for
> an induction cooktop, because that would be a deal breaker.

Why?

--

You are what you eat, so avoid fruitcake and nuts.

sf wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:11:40 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> > sf wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
> > > (Steve Pope) wrote:
> > >
> > > > As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> > > > put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> > > > DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> > > > An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> > > > I never have done this.
> > >
> > > An inexperienced DYI electrician has a fool for a contractor.
> >
> > BS.
> >
> > You don't need experience to do the job safely and properly, all you
> > need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
> > understand reference material. Despite what union thugs would like you
> > to believe it is not brain surgery or even difficult.
> >
> > A friend needed to replace / upgrade the service on his house, I gave
> > him an evening of instruction on how to do the work, he got the permit,
> > did the work and the inspector commented that it was one of the neatest
> > jobs he had seen.
>
> I won't bother to argue with an arrogant fool.

I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
here is you.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:44:49 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

> I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
> more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
> here is you.

What part about inexperienced didn't you understand?

--

You are what you eat, so avoid fruitcake and nuts.

sf wrote:
>"Pete C."wrote:
>
>> I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
>> more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
>> here is you.
>
>What part about inexperienced didn't you understand?

Better to ask what proof of *anything* Pete C. has ever claimed have
you seen. I've done 107+ complete service upgrades, thousands of new
circuit runs... and I haul ass in a Peterbilt 389! LOL-LOL
http://www.peterbilt.com/trad389.2.aspx

sf wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:44:49 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> > I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
> > more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
> > here is you.
>
> What part about inexperienced didn't you understand?

What part of "You don't need experience to do the job safely and
properly, all you
need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
understand reference material" didn't you understand?

Nobody starts out with experience in any given area, that experience
comes over time and lack of experience in no way means improper or low
quality work, what it means is more time spent checking reference
materials to make sure you understand what you are doing. It's no
different than cooking, you follow a recipe the first few times and the
food comes out perfect, after you have experience you can do the same
without referring to the recipe.

Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> sf wrote:
> >"Pete C."wrote:
> >
> >> I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
> >> more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
> >> here is you.
> >
> >What part about inexperienced didn't you understand?
>
> Better to ask what proof of *anything* Pete C. has ever claimed have
> you seen. I've done 107+ complete service upgrades, thousands of new
> circuit runs... and I haul ass in a Peterbilt 389! LOL-LOL
> http://www.peterbilt.com/trad389.2.aspx

Here you go:

http://wpnet.us/Power/index.htm

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:40:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>Lou Decruss wrote:

>> Sheldon is full of shit.
>
>Usually he is, however he is correct on this one since he lives in
>union/mob (same thing) controlled NY. A few other places in the region
>are the same.

NY is no more union controlled than Chicago. My union credentials are
out of the cook county local. (Chicago) You can do your own work
legally but it has to be done to code. The union has nothing to say
about it.

Lou

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:52:36 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

> What part of "You don't need experience to do the job safely and
> properly, all you
> need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
> understand reference material" didn't you understand?

God, you're self absorbed.

--

You are what you eat, so avoid fruitcake and nuts.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

>sf > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
>
>>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded
>
>>Agreed.
>
>Let me correct that to "any house that does not have a 220V
>service entrance should be upgraded". There's not actually any
>need to put in any 220V circuits unless/until you have appliances
>that need them. Putting in a 220V circuit randomly, without knowing
>which appliance it needs to be hooked to, would be silly as it
>would likely end up in the wrong place, at least slightly.
>
>As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>I never have done this.

A 240 volt circuit just has an extra wire connected to the opposite
phase. It's really not as big of a deal as you think.

Lou

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:40:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> >> Sheldon is full of shit.
> >
> >Usually he is, however he is correct on this one since he lives in
> >union/mob (same thing) controlled NY. A few other places in the region
> >are the same.
>
> NY is no more union controlled than Chicago. My union credentials are
> out of the cook county local. (Chicago) You can do your own work
> legally but it has to be done to code. The union has nothing to say
> about it.
>
> Lou

There are places where the unions have managed to get non union and DIY
work banned.

sf wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:52:36 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> > What part of "You don't need experience to do the job safely and
> > properly, all you
> > need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
> > understand reference material" didn't you understand?
>
> God, you're self absorbed.

No, I'm stating facts. If you can't comprehend them, you have issues.

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
> >sf > wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
> >
> >>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded
> >
> >>Agreed.
> >
> >Let me correct that to "any house that does not have a 220V
> >service entrance should be upgraded". There's not actually any
> >need to put in any 220V circuits unless/until you have appliances
> >that need them. Putting in a 220V circuit randomly, without knowing
> >which appliance it needs to be hooked to, would be silly as it
> >would likely end up in the wrong place, at least slightly.
> >
> >As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> >put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> >DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> >An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> >I never have done this.
>
> A 240 volt circuit just has an extra wire connected to the opposite
> phase. It's really not as big of a deal as you think.

Nope, nothing magic, more dangerous or more difficult about 240V
circuits, just another wire. The same goes for 3 phase 120/208 Wye
circuits not serving motor loads. "Wild leg" 240 delta circuits require
a bit more attention to detail ensuring that the "wild leg" is not
confused with the others, but even that is no big deal. Phase rotation
needs to be taken into account for three phase motor loads, but again
it's not brain surgery.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:47:07 +0200, "Ed Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Steve Pope" > wrote
>> As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>> put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>> DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>> An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>> I never have done this.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
>If you understand the basics of wiring, you are reasonably handy, it is not
>that difficult. I've done a few and they have passed inspection. The
>trouble comes in when people that don't know which end of the screwdriver to
>use, start a project to save a few bucks.

I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
mess for himself.

Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
hours. All to save a few bucks.

Lou

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:41:49 -0400, Jim Elbrecht >
wrote:

>"Pete C." > wrote:
>
>>> Sheldon is full of shit.
>>
>>Usually he is, however he is correct on this one since he lives in
>>union/mob (same thing) controlled NY. A few other places in the region
>>are the same.
>>
>
>He's still full of shit. I'm in NY, too, and i can do my own
>electrical work. I've lived in 4 counties in NY and only one had
>enough union influence to forbid homeowners from doing their own
>electrical work.
>
>It still needs to be inspected, and the inspectors are all over the
>place--- but it isn't illegal in all of NY.

sheldon makes stuff up to sound important. (to himself)

Lou

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:11:40 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>sf wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>>
>> > As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>> > put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>> > DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>> > An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>> > I never have done this.
>>
>> An inexperienced DYI electrician has a fool for a contractor.
>
>BS.
>
>You don't need experience to do the job safely and properly, all you
>need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
>understand reference material. Despite what union thugs would like you
>to believe it is not brain surgery or even difficult.

Swapping out a service requires working power company wires live. I
don't consider that a DIY project.

Lou

On 9/26/2011 10:18 PM, Pete C. wrote:
>
> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:01:05 -0500, "Pete >
>>>
>>>>> If you are in the US, in a regular house and have an existing electric
>>>>> range you will most likely have a 40A 240V circuit servicing that range.
>>>>> Buy a new range that requires 40A service or less and there will be no
>>>>> issues.
>>>>
>>>> Most people in the US have the necessary electrical upgrade for that
>>>> sort of thing if they use electric. 220 is pretty much standard.
>>>
>>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded, which
>>> requires a new service entrance and will cost about $1,000 if you pay
>>> someone to do just that (adding no new circuits).
>>
>> Unless one is a licensed electrician they will be paying. A new
>> service requires a fire underwriters approval which requires a
>> licensed electrician signing off on the work. The utility company
>> won't reattach the service otherwise. Technically the homeowner is
>> not supposed to be messing with adding circuits or doing any wiring
>> without a licensed electrician signing off on the job. People do
>> their own electrical work all the time but they'd best pray they don't
>> have an electrical fire or their homeowners insurance after their
>> inspection finds the fire was started due to code violation they won't
>> pay.
>
> This is true in your unfortunate location, it is not at all true in most
> states. Where I live there are no requirements at all - no permits, no
> inspections, no anything.

Actually it isn't true in NY (no surprise coming from Shelden).

Any homeowner can take out a permit, do the work and then pay an
underwriter to inspect the work. This outfit is probably the biggest and
most common one:

http://www.bureauveritas.com

When they approve the work they issue a "cut in card" to the electric
utility.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:22:48 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>>
>> >sf > wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
>> >
>> >>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded
>> >
>> >>Agreed.
>> >
>> >Let me correct that to "any house that does not have a 220V
>> >service entrance should be upgraded". There's not actually any
>> >need to put in any 220V circuits unless/until you have appliances
>> >that need them. Putting in a 220V circuit randomly, without knowing
>> >which appliance it needs to be hooked to, would be silly as it
>> >would likely end up in the wrong place, at least slightly.
>> >
>> >As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>> >put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>> >DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>> >An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>> >I never have done this.
>>
>> A 240 volt circuit just has an extra wire connected to the opposite
>> phase. It's really not as big of a deal as you think.
>
>Nope, nothing magic, more dangerous or more difficult about 240V
>circuits, just another wire. The same goes for 3 phase 120/208 Wye
>circuits not serving motor loads. "Wild leg" 240 delta circuits require
>a bit more attention to detail ensuring that the "wild leg" is not
>confused with the others, but even that is no big deal. Phase rotation
>needs to be taken into account for three phase motor loads, but again
>it's not brain surgery.

Yes I know all this but I doubt anyone here cares. My point is that
people hear 240 and they immediately think danger and a huge price
tag. The parts are more and the wire is usually bigger but it's not
as bad as people let themselves get tricked into paying. I think it
was sheldon who said it would cost thousands which is crazy unless
walls need to be carved up.

Lou

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:47:07 +0200, "Ed Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Steve Pope" > wrote
> >> As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> >> put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> >> DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> >> An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> >> I never have done this.
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >
> >If you understand the basics of wiring, you are reasonably handy, it is not
> >that difficult. I've done a few and they have passed inspection. The
> >trouble comes in when people that don't know which end of the screwdriver to
> >use, start a project to save a few bucks.
>
> I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
> didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
> any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
> used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
> turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
> sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
> mess for himself.
>
> Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
> change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
> wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
> he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
> how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
> than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
> hours. All to save a few bucks.
>
> Lou

Both examples where they did not spend the time with the reference
materials to understand the proper way to do the job.

George wrote:
>
> On 9/26/2011 10:18 PM, Pete C. wrote:
> >
> > Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
> >> (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:01:05 -0500, "Pete >
> >>>
> >>>>> If you are in the US, in a regular house and have an existing electric
> >>>>> range you will most likely have a 40A 240V circuit servicing that range.
> >>>>> Buy a new range that requires 40A service or less and there will be no
> >>>>> issues.
> >>>>
> >>>> Most people in the US have the necessary electrical upgrade for that
> >>>> sort of thing if they use electric. 220 is pretty much standard.
> >>>
> >>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded, which
> >>> requires a new service entrance and will cost about $1,000 if you pay
> >>> someone to do just that (adding no new circuits).
> >>
> >> Unless one is a licensed electrician they will be paying. A new
> >> service requires a fire underwriters approval which requires a
> >> licensed electrician signing off on the work. The utility company
> >> won't reattach the service otherwise. Technically the homeowner is
> >> not supposed to be messing with adding circuits or doing any wiring
> >> without a licensed electrician signing off on the job. People do
> >> their own electrical work all the time but they'd best pray they don't
> >> have an electrical fire or their homeowners insurance after their
> >> inspection finds the fire was started due to code violation they won't
> >> pay.
> >
> > This is true in your unfortunate location, it is not at all true in most
> > states. Where I live there are no requirements at all - no permits, no
> > inspections, no anything.
>
> Actually it isn't true in NY (no surprise coming from Shelden).
>
> Any homeowner can take out a permit, do the work and then pay an
> underwriter to inspect the work. This outfit is probably the biggest and
> most common one:
>
> http://www.bureauveritas.com
>
> When they approve the work they issue a "cut in card" to the electric
> utility.

It is true in at least parts of NY and also in some other places.

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:11:40 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >sf wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
> >> (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >>
> >> > As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> >> > put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> >> > DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> >> > An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> >> > I never have done this.
> >>
> >> An inexperienced DYI electrician has a fool for a contractor.
> >
> >BS.
> >
> >You don't need experience to do the job safely and properly, all you
> >need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
> >understand reference material. Despite what union thugs would like you
> >to believe it is not brain surgery or even difficult.
>
> Swapping out a service requires working power company wires live.

In some case it does, but in many cases it does not. I've done about 7
service upgrades and only two required me to work with the service drop
hot.

Cases where a live cutover was not needed included:

- A case where the service up through the meter base had previously been
replaced after storm damage and thus upgrades were only required from
the load side of the meter socket on through the panel.

- A case where the entire new service entrance from weather head through
meter base through panel was able to be built up in parallel and the
utility did the cut over between the weather heads (and also replaced
the old 3 wire drop with triplex).

> I don't consider that a DIY project.

Very experienced DIY such as myself for live cut overs, but the service
upgrades that do not require a live cut over aren't a big deal.

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:22:48 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Lou Decruss wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
> >> (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >>
> >> >sf > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
> >> >
> >> >>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded
> >> >
> >> >>Agreed.
> >> >
> >> >Let me correct that to "any house that does not have a 220V
> >> >service entrance should be upgraded". There's not actually any
> >> >need to put in any 220V circuits unless/until you have appliances
> >> >that need them. Putting in a 220V circuit randomly, without knowing
> >> >which appliance it needs to be hooked to, would be silly as it
> >> >would likely end up in the wrong place, at least slightly.
> >> >
> >> >As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> >> >put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> >> >DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> >> >An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> >> >I never have done this.
> >>
> >> A 240 volt circuit just has an extra wire connected to the opposite
> >> phase. It's really not as big of a deal as you think.
> >
> >Nope, nothing magic, more dangerous or more difficult about 240V
> >circuits, just another wire. The same goes for 3 phase 120/208 Wye
> >circuits not serving motor loads. "Wild leg" 240 delta circuits require
> >a bit more attention to detail ensuring that the "wild leg" is not
> >confused with the others, but even that is no big deal. Phase rotation
> >needs to be taken into account for three phase motor loads, but again
> >it's not brain surgery.
>
> Yes I know all this but I doubt anyone here cares. My point is that
> people hear 240 and they immediately think danger and a huge price
> tag. The parts are more and the wire is usually bigger but it's not
> as bad as people let themselves get tricked into paying. I think it
> was sheldon who said it would cost thousands which is crazy unless
> walls need to be carved up.
>
> Lou

Like I originally said, upgrading a range circuit can span from ultra
easy where the run is short and accessible in unfinished space, to a
royal pain and $$$ where the run is long and is through finished space.
A new 2P breaker and new receptacle is like $20, wire a couple dollars
per foot. Labor is where the expense is if it's a difficult run. I've
done ones where it cost $50 total in parts and took 30 minutes, and one
or two that were perhaps $50 more in wire, but took all day to do due to
a difficult run.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 06:48:13 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:52:36 -0500, "Pete C." >
>wrote:
>
>> What part of "You don't need experience to do the job safely and
>> properly, all you
>> need is basic mechanical aptitude and the intelligence to read and
>> understand reference material" didn't you understand?
>
>God, you're self absorbed.

Of course you don't need experience to wire a house with a paint by
numbers directional booklet, not if you don't mind having it burn to
the ground with your family in it.

Pete C. is also a certifiable idiot and a patent liar... to date he
hasn't presented even once an iota of evidence that supports any his
megalomaniacal claims... I honestly think he is very ill, mentally...
every time someone says they have something and even displays several
photos Pete C. right away jumps in by saying he has ten times as much
but presents nothing to back his claims... he obviously suffers from a
grave insecurity complex among other mental deficits. Likely he's
also dangerous, I'd recommend keeping a distance.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:59:06 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> sf wrote:
>> >"Pete C."wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've done 7+ complete service upgrades, hundreds of new circuit runs and
>> >> more electrical work that you could comprehend, the only arrogant fool
>> >> here is you.
>> >
>> >What part about inexperienced didn't you understand?
>>
>> Better to ask what proof of *anything* Pete C. has ever claimed have
>> you seen. I've done 107+ complete service upgrades, thousands of new
>> circuit runs... and I haul ass in a Peterbilt 389! LOL-LOL
>> http://www.peterbilt.com/trad389.2.aspx
>
>Here you go:
>
>http://wpnet.us/Power/index.htm

None of those photos prove your claims, they are all too
impersonal/sterile. Had you shown photos all along in progression
over the years then maybe, but those can easily be of someone elses
property and likely are by how carefully they're edited/croped and all
in the same folder... more likely you were a spectator on that job and
that's a friend's/relative's vehicle. Maybe I should take photos of
the gorgeous 400 acre horse farm around the corner and claim it's
mine.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:42:06 -0500, Lou Decruss
> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:40:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>>> Sheldon is full of shit.
>>
>>Usually he is, however he is correct on this one since he lives in
>>union/mob (same thing) controlled NY. A few other places in the region
>>are the same.
>
>NY is no more union controlled than Chicago. My union credentials are
>out of the cook county local. (Chicago) You can do your own work
>legally but it has to be done to code. The union has nothing to say
>about it.

That's true, there are union jobs and non union jobs. But all wiring
requires a Fire Underwriter's inspection and that needs to be filed
for by a licensed electrician... the power company inspects service
changes too and that also needs to be filed for by a licensed
electrician. One of my best buds is a licensed electrition, he used
to work union but gave up his union card due to lack of union job work
and opened his own sole proprietorship, North Electric... I gave him
that name for his business, he liked it much better than his original
idea of Aardvark Electric, he wanted to be listed first in the Yellow
Pages. Joe S. still lives in the same house on Lung Guyland's North
shore, but now he mostly teaches BOCES. He's a very knowlegable
electrician, I used to be his helper on some weekends just for fun...
wiring new construction is hard labor. He rewired my entire house,
from 100 A to 200 A, and to commercial code... I actually didn't need
it on my 2 X 4 two bedroom house but we often helped each other (he
had all the hardware left over anyway), I dug his well pit, he got his
BIL to put a new roof on my house. That's how I met him, I was
walking on the next steet and saw him digging and offered to help and
I ended up digging the entire well pit; 7' feet deep and 5' X 5', in
the center of his driveway. I was young then, I could've dug to
China. Now I'd have a backhoe do it.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:40:05 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:47:07 +0200, "Ed Pawlowski" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Steve Pope" > wrote
>> >> As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>> >> put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>> >> DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>> >> An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>> >> I never have done this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >
>> >If you understand the basics of wiring, you are reasonably handy, it is not
>> >that difficult. I've done a few and they have passed inspection. The
>> >trouble comes in when people that don't know which end of the screwdriver to
>> >use, start a project to save a few bucks.
>>
>> I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
>> didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
>> any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
>> used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
>> turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
>> sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
>> mess for himself.
>>
>> Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
>> change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
>> wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
>> he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
>> how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
>> than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
>> hours. All to save a few bucks.
>>
>> Lou
>
>Both examples where they did not spend the time with the reference
>materials to understand the proper way to do the job.

Nope. It's examples of fools trying to save money and it backfired.
The example with the multiple switches had three and four way switches
in it. I've been doing this for 30+ years and when I open a box like
that I have to be attentive. If you think you can teach someone how
to do that on their own over a cup of coffee you're nuts.

Lou

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:01:47 -0500, Lou Decruss
> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:15:14 +0000 (UTC),
>(Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>>sf > wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
>>
>>>> Any U.S. house that does not have 220 wiring should be upgraded
>>
>>>Agreed.
>>
>>Let me correct that to "any house that does not have a 220V
>>service entrance should be upgraded". There's not actually any
>>need to put in any 220V circuits unless/until you have appliances
>>that need them. Putting in a 220V circuit randomly, without knowing
>>which appliance it needs to be hooked to, would be silly as it
>>would likely end up in the wrong place, at least slightly.
>>
>>As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
>>put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
>>DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
>>An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
>>I never have done this.
>
>A 240 volt circuit just has an extra wire connected to the opposite
>phase. It's really not as big of a deal as you think.

There are still many houses that only have 120V, in rural areas they
don't need 220V... and plenty still have 60 Amp with fuses. Many old
farm houses heated and cooked with wood, used kerosene lighting, and
had an ice house for a fridge. If they could use a radio they were
happy, they didn't have time for TV anyway... most of their electric
was in their livestock housing. There are still plenty of families
here that live that way. I have neighbors who still get water from a
well with a hand pump... for some a portable generator supplies all
the electric they need. My barn is wired (2 lamp sockets/2
recepticles) but the last owner used a small generator. They kept
livestock but there's a natural spring near the barn that fills the
pond.

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:40:05 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Lou Decruss wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:47:07 +0200, "Ed Pawlowski" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Steve Pope" > wrote
> >> >> As for Sheldon's point, yes, only a licensed electrician should
> >> >> put in a service entrance. It's usually considered okay for
> >> >> DIY types to put in a 120V circuit, lamp wiring, or similar.
> >> >> An experienced DIY type might take on putting in a 220V circuit.
> >> >> I never have done this.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Steve
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >If you understand the basics of wiring, you are reasonably handy, it is not
> >> >that difficult. I've done a few and they have passed inspection. The
> >> >trouble comes in when people that don't know which end of the screwdriver to
> >> >use, start a project to save a few bucks.
> >>
> >> I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
> >> didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
> >> any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
> >> used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
> >> turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
> >> sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
> >> mess for himself.
> >>
> >> Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
> >> change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
> >> wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
> >> he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
> >> how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
> >> than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
> >> hours. All to save a few bucks.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> >Both examples where they did not spend the time with the reference
> >materials to understand the proper way to do the job.
>
> Nope. It's examples of fools trying to save money and it backfired.

A fool yes, but not for trying to save money, rather for not spending
the time to research properly.

> The example with the multiple switches had three and four way switches
> in it. I've been doing this for 30+ years and when I open a box like
> that I have to be attentive.

Absolutely, when faced with such an arrangement I take the 5 minutes to
sketch out a proper diagram so I don't need to worry about marking
wires. I have also had to sort out such a mess after someone else was
not so attentive and it is a pain.

> If you think you can teach someone how
> to do that on their own over a cup of coffee you're nuts.

Sorry, but I have done that in the past. As I noted I taught one friend
how to do a complete service replacement upgrade in an evening, he
pulled the permit, did the work and got rave reviews from the inspector.

In article >,
Lou Decruss > wrote:

> I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
> didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
> any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
> used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
> turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
> sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
> mess for himself.
>
> Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
> change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
> wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
> he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
> how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
> than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
> hours. All to save a few bucks.

Our little car wasn't working right. My wife said she'd take a look.
Well, that sounded useless, but OK. What harm could she do?

Later she says it doesn't work at all. I asked her what she did.
Pulled all the wires out of the distributor. Did she put them back?
Yes. In the right order? Didn't know. Did it matter? Yes. What to
do next? Call the tow truck!

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Dan Abel wrote:
>
> In article >,
> Lou Decruss > wrote:
>
> > I had some guy call me to wire a basement. He had run the pipe but
> > didn't know how to do the wiring. I got there to find he hadn't bent
> > any pipe but used pull elbows which can't be buried in the wall. He
> > used the wrong boxes and other stupid stuff I can't remember but I
> > turned the job down unless he tore it out and I started over. I'm
> > sure he found someone to do it but for the little he saved he made a
> > mess for himself.
> >
> > Someone else had a location with 4-5 switches in it. He wanted to
> > change switch colors and add some dimmers. He went and bought the
> > wrong stuff, tore it apart and didn't mark anything. Of course when
> > he was done nothing did what it was supposed to do. I don't remember
> > how long it took me to straighten it out but it cost him a lot more
> > than if I'd done it to begin with. A 20-30 minute job turned into
> > hours. All to save a few bucks.
>
> Our little car wasn't working right. My wife said she'd take a look.
> Well, that sounded useless, but OK. What harm could she do?
>
> Later she says it doesn't work at all. I asked her what she did.
> Pulled all the wires out of the distributor. Did she put them back?
> Yes. In the right order? Didn't know. Did it matter? Yes.

> What to
> do next? Call the tow truck!

Nope, read the manual, find the correct firing order and put them back
correctly. No tow truck required, just the intelligence to read and
learn, something that seems to be sorely lacking in recent generations.

On 9/28/2011 1:00 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
>
> Our little car wasn't working right. My wife said she'd take a look.
> Well, that sounded useless, but OK. What harm could she do?
>
> Later she says it doesn't work at all. I asked her what she did.
> Pulled all the wires out of the distributor. Did she put them back?
> Yes. In the right order? Didn't know. Did it matter? Yes. What to
> do next? Call the tow truck!
>

You could try guessing the wiring. The shortest wire would probably be
for the spark plug closest to the distributor. The longest would
probably go to the plug the furthest away. You can figure out the rest.
OTOH, all you have to do is Google "cylinder firing order" and then the
make and model of your car.

It's good that your wife would want to pull the wires from plugs. My
wife wouldn't do such a thing. She should get the manual and learn to do
the repairs on your car.

On 9/27/2011 11:06 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> Pull the stove out and take a picture of the receptacle. Unplug it
> and wipe it off and you should be able to find a NEMA number on the
> black part. If your eyes aren't so good like mine you might need a
> flashlight. I'd probably need a magnifying glass actually. Take a
> close-up picture of the receptacle so I can see the spade
> configuration and post it to where ever you post pictures so I can see
> it.
>
> If everything was done properly this should tell you what you have and
> the rating.
>
> Wiki has a basic diagram of NEMA configurations. There's more in
> other places but I think this should be all you need.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector
>
> Post your pictures and we'll go from there if you choose.

I never imagined you can pull it out but I haven't tried. It is a
standalone model pushed in between the cabinets so I guess I could. I
think I will consult with my brother to pull it out.

On 9/28/2011 12:56 AM, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:27:04 -0400, >
> wrote:
>
>> Buy a new stove but I want to make sure I don't need an electrician for
>> an induction cooktop, because that would be a deal breaker.
>
> Why?

Why would it be a dealbreaker? Because I just want to replace the
stove/range/whatever with whatever will work with the power already
available.

In article >,
dsi1 > wrote:

> On 9/28/2011 1:00 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> >
> > Our little car wasn't working right. My wife said she'd take a look.
> > Well, that sounded useless, but OK. What harm could she do?
> >
> > Later she says it doesn't work at all. I asked her what she did.
> > Pulled all the wires out of the distributor. Did she put them back?
> > Yes. In the right order? Didn't know. Did it matter? Yes. What to
> > do next? Call the tow truck!
> >
>
> You could try guessing the wiring. The shortest wire would probably be
> for the spark plug closest to the distributor. The longest would
> probably go to the plug the furthest away. You can figure out the rest.

She didn't pull the wires off of the spark plugs. They were still
connected, and all of them were the correct length to fit any connection
on the distributor.

> OTOH, all you have to do is Google "cylinder firing order" and then the
> make and model of your car.

I don't think that Al Gore had invented the internet yet.

:-)

I'm sure I read the user manual, and it said nothing of use. I bought a
really nice Hyundai Sonata about a year ago. The first thing I do when
I buy a car is read the user manual, cover to cover. But half of the
darned thing (and it was really thick) was about how to use the radio!
I don't even listen to the radio!

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

"Dan Abel" > wrote

>
> I'm sure I read the user manual, and it said nothing of use. I bought a
> really nice Hyundai Sonata about a year ago. The first thing I do when
> I buy a car is read the user manual, cover to cover. But half of the
> darned thing (and it was really thick) was about how to use the radio!
> I don't even listen to the radio!
>

One of the things I like about my Sonata is the XM radio. Never thought I'd
pay to listen, but commercial free, it is very nice.

"Cheryl" > wrote
> Why would it be a dealbreaker? Because I just want to replace the
> stove/range/whatever with whatever will work with the power already
> available.

I sort of understand, but I'd not let $75 for an electrician stop me from
having the stove I really want and will have to live with for many more
years. If you require major work, that may be a different story. Chances
are, changing the plug is the most you will need

On 9/29/2011 4:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> One of the things I like about my Sonata is the XM radio. Never thought
> I'd pay to listen, but commercial free, it is very nice.

People mocked, that's okay. I got to like having XM radio in
about a day. It's very convenient and there are stations for
every mood or taste. And you don't drive in and out of range,
that was a hassle when I commuted.

nancy

Dan Abel wrote:
>
> In article >,
> dsi1 > wrote:
>
> > On 9/28/2011 1:00 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> > >
> > > Our little car wasn't working right. My wife said she'd take a look.
> > > Well, that sounded useless, but OK. What harm could she do?
> > >
> > > Later she says it doesn't work at all. I asked her what she did.
> > > Pulled all the wires out of the distributor. Did she put them back?
> > > Yes. In the right order? Didn't know. Did it matter? Yes. What to
> > > do next? Call the tow truck!
> > >
> >
> > You could try guessing the wiring. The shortest wire would probably be
> > for the spark plug closest to the distributor. The longest would
> > probably go to the plug the furthest away. You can figure out the rest.
>
> She didn't pull the wires off of the spark plugs. They were still
> connected, and all of them were the correct length to fit any connection
> on the distributor.
>
> > OTOH, all you have to do is Google "cylinder firing order" and then the
> > make and model of your car.
>
> I don't think that Al Gore had invented the internet yet.
>
> :-)
>
> I'm sure I read the user manual, and it said nothing of use. I bought a
> really nice Hyundai Sonata about a year ago. The first thing I do when
> I buy a car is read the user manual, cover to cover. But half of the
> darned thing (and it was really thick) was about how to use the radio!
> I don't even listen to the radio!

When I buy a new vehicle, I order the factory service manual at the same
time. I also read them cover to cover so I know how everything works and
am more aware of any developing problems.

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> On 9/29/2011 4:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> > One of the things I like about my Sonata is the XM radio. Never thought
> > I'd pay to listen, but commercial free, it is very nice.
>
> People mocked, that's okay. I got to like having XM radio in
> about a day. It's very convenient and there are stations for
> every mood or taste. And you don't drive in and out of range,
> that was a hassle when I commuted.
>
> nancy

I still mock. My truck came with sat radio, I fiddled with it for one
day and only because I was doing a 1,700 mile drive. I find it to be
utterly worthless and from what I heard it isn't even "commercial free"
as they claim since it seems to be riddled with their own commercials. I
listen to either NPR or to music from a 16GB USB drive of MP3s.

On 9/29/2011 7:11 AM, Pete C. wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>> On 9/29/2011 4:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> One of the things I like about my Sonata is the XM radio. Never thought
>>> I'd pay to listen, but commercial free, it is very nice.
>>
>> People mocked, that's okay. I got to like having XM radio in
>> about a day. It's very convenient and there are stations for
>> every mood or taste. And you don't drive in and out of range,
>> that was a hassle when I commuted.

> I still mock. My truck came with sat radio, I fiddled with it for one
> day and only because I was doing a 1,700 mile drive. I find it to be
> utterly worthless and from what I heard it isn't even "commercial free"
> as they claim since it seems to be riddled with their own commercials. I
> listen to either NPR or to music from a 16GB USB drive of MP3s.

Oh, I'm not under any illusion people won't still mock. I don't
hear all these commercials you mention but I suppose we listen to
different stations. I like to hear music when I'm driving around
that is something I wouldn't have thought to record or buy on a CD.

nancy