On Oct 16, 1:09*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On Oct 16, 7:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> > > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> > > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> > > use it for the new one.
> > > Problem solved.
>
> > The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> > one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
> > and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
> > those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
> > pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>
> > So the electrician has been here, and the whole thing is working fine.
> > One problem is that while I watched where he put the receptacle to make
> > sure the range would be able to slide up against the wall, I missed one
> > thing. *The cord that goes from the receptacle to the stove is too close
> > to the cabinet so the stove STILL doesn't slide all the way in, but I
> > can fix that part myself. *Just need to move the receptacle now that
> > it's wired. *Yes, I will turn off the circuit breaker.
>
> Pretty exciting stuff - that induction range. I'm gonna cook some
> pulled pork but it seems that I dumped my cast aluminum dutch oven
> when I purged my kitchen of non-magnetic pots. That was a smart move.
> Too bad - I've used that since I was a kid. Time marches on.
>
> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.

dsi is talking about the neutral wire.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:15:28 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

>On Oct 16, 11:19*am, Lou Decruss > wrote:

>> So where did that 4th wire come from? *Magic?
>
>Ground.
>
>Coming from your breaker box should be four wires: Neutral (AKA the
>grounDED conductor), Ground (AKA the GrounDING conductor), and two 120
>VAC hot leads (split phase)
>
>In the olden days, ranges, dryers, etc. were supplied with the two
>120VAC hot leads (which produced 240VAC between them) and the neutral,
>which was connected to the appliance frame to serve as a pseudo-
>ground. But in the words of Click and Clack that was Bo-o-o-o-gus,
>because when the load is imbalanced you can get current on the
>neutral, raising the frame potential above ground. This was a real
>problem in offices when personal computers with their primitive switch
>mode power supplies became popular, because neutral wires had never
>been sized to carry current and fires started as a result.
>
>So nowadays, the code mandates they run ground to the frame.

I know this but unless her friend pulled another wire to the panel
it's probably not wired right. I'm assuming he just used the ground
as a neutral and either didn't ground it or doubled it up. If the
neutral is used for the 120 V. controls there's a load on it and
shouldn't also be used as a ground. Without seeing it it's hard to
tell. Just because something works doesn't mean it's right. You're
saying basically the same thing I am. Grounding is a fussy subject and
for safety it's important to do it right.

Lou

On Oct 15, 3:42*pm, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:32:42 -0700 (PDT), Kalmia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Oct 14, 10:18*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
> >> I am getting my new range tomorrow and was cleaning out the storage
> >> drawer and removing all the stuff I keep on top of the
> >> backboard/splashboard shelf - which my new range will not have because
> >> it's curved - and pulled it out a bit to see if I could easily move it..
> >> * Well it looks like I need an electrician. *The current power looks
> >> hardwired. *There is a thick wire coming out of the wall (no receptacle)
> >> and the new one comes with some new code power cord that's been in
> >> effect
>
> >whaaaat? *No flat backboard? *I'd die without mine. *Homebase for
> >salt, pepper, cinnamon, ( all in shakers), seaweed flakes, a 3 minute
> >egg timer....and a minute minder. *I bet you'll miss that feature.
>
> My stove has a narrow flat area all along the top of the back
> splash... but I never put anything there, it would just collect
> schmutz. *And that's certainly not the place to store spices. *They
> probably now design stoves with the curved backsplash for safety
> reasons, that's about the least safe place in the kitchen to store
> anything flammable *In olden times the shelf above the kitchen stove
> was in lieu of a warming drawer... but now we have central heating.

Yeah - it gets schmutzig, but I try to give it and the control knobs
a good scrub every blue moon. I have been in houses where the
stovetop is just a big, flat grease smear, and they wonder where the
shine went. The householder gives it a swipe with a dishrag, but
never soap etc. Ugh. What's worse - a dirty house or an untidy one?
They usually go hand in hand, but not necessarily.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

>On Oct 16, 1:09*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
>> On Oct 16, 7:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:

>> > The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> > one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
>> > and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
>> > those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
>> > pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>>
>> > So the electrician has been here, and the whole thing is working fine.
>> > One problem is that while I watched where he put the receptacle to make
>> > sure the range would be able to slide up against the wall, I missed one
>> > thing. *The cord that goes from the receptacle to the stove is too close
>> > to the cabinet so the stove STILL doesn't slide all the way in, but I
>> > can fix that part myself. *Just need to move the receptacle now that
>> > it's wired. *Yes, I will turn off the circuit breaker.
>>
>> Pretty exciting stuff - that induction range. I'm gonna cook some
>> pulled pork but it seems that I dumped my cast aluminum dutch oven
>> when I purged my kitchen of non-magnetic pots. That was a smart move.
>> Too bad - I've used that since I was a kid. Time marches on.
>>
>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>
>dsi is talking about the neutral wire.

Yes and he is correct. Years ago there were no electronic controls so
it wasn't a big deal. That 4th wire was added for a reason. AC
compressors don't need a neutral because the controls get their power
from the low voltage wires coming from a transformer on the furnace or
air handler.

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:50:25 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>
>>>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. Why can't
>>>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>>>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>>>> use it for the new one.
>>>> Problem solved.
>>>
>>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.
>>
>>
>I honestly have no idea. I guess the receptacle box converts it.

You snipped what I said but the box isn't that smart.

Lou

On Oct 16, 2:50*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
> > wrote:
>
> >> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> >>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> >>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> >>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> >>> use it for the new one.
> >>> Problem solved.
>
> >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires.
>
> I honestly have no idea. *I guess the receptacle box converts it.

The box itself (if made of metal) will be grounded and is a place
where the groundING wire can be connected. A friend stores one of
these in my back room: http://tinyurl.com/3d3a4pl. I find it
occasionally handy.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On Oct 16, 10:10*am, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> On Oct 16, 1:09*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 16, 7:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
>
> > > On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > > > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> > > > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> > > > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> > > > use it for the new one.
> > > > Problem solved.
>
> > > The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> > > one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
> > > and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
> > > those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
> > > pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>
> > > So the electrician has been here, and the whole thing is working fine..
> > > One problem is that while I watched where he put the receptacle to make
> > > sure the range would be able to slide up against the wall, I missed one
> > > thing. *The cord that goes from the receptacle to the stove is too close
> > > to the cabinet so the stove STILL doesn't slide all the way in, but I
> > > can fix that part myself. *Just need to move the receptacle now that
> > > it's wired. *Yes, I will turn off the circuit breaker.
>
> > Pretty exciting stuff - that induction range. I'm gonna cook some
> > pulled pork but it seems that I dumped my cast aluminum dutch oven
> > when I purged my kitchen of non-magnetic pots. That was a smart move.
> > Too bad - I've used that since I was a kid. Time marches on.
>
> > The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
> > appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
> > supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>
> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.

When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> wrote:

>On Oct 16, 10:10*am, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>> On Oct 16, 1:09*pm, dsi1 > wrote:

>> > The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>> > appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
>> > supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>>
>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>
>When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
>the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.

I've never heard it used. It handles the balance of the load between
phases. Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
directional. I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
see how he/she used the term. If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. The same will
happen out in the field. It's damn near impossible to have that
situation in the real world.

In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
and the stove.

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:52:20 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins >
wrote:

>On Oct 16, 2:50*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
>> On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> >>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
>> >>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>> >>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>> >>> use it for the new one.
>> >>> Problem solved.
>>
>> >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires.
>>
>> I honestly have no idea. *I guess the receptacle box converts it.
>
>The box itself (if made of metal) will be grounded and is a place
>where the groundING wire can be connected.

Did you read the whole thread? There was no box and the house is
romex.

Lou

On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
> and the stove.

I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.

The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.

You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
about a fire.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

>On Oct 16, 10:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
>> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
>> > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>> > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>> > use it for the new one.
>> > Problem solved.
>>
>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
>> and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
>> those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
>> pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>
>Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the house
>when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
>another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
>to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
>some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
>the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
>to a surface mount receptacle.
>
>I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
>the water heater.

Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? What does the gas line or
the water heater have to do with anything?

>> So the electrician has been here, and the whole thing is working fine.
>> One problem is that while I watched where he put the receptacle to make
>> sure the range would be able to slide up against the wall, I missed one
>> thing. *The cord that goes from the receptacle to the stove is too close
>> to the cabinet so the stove STILL doesn't slide all the way in, but I
>> can fix that part myself. *Just need to move the receptacle now that
>> it's wired. *Yes, I will turn off the circuit breaker.
>
>Wood butchery is easier than electrical work. Make sure you don't
>strain the wire connections in the process.

Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. Because
most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
properly. And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.

Lou

On Oct 16, 4:19*pm, Lou Decruss > wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Oct 16, 10:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
> >> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> >> > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> >> > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> >> > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> >> > use it for the new one.
> >> > Problem solved.
>
> >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
> >> and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
> >> those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
> >> pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>
> >Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the *house
> >when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
> >another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
> >to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
> >some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
> >the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
> >to a surface mount receptacle.
>
> >I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
> >the water heater.
>
> Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? *What does the gas line or
> the water heater have to do with anything?

1. A half-assed 220 VAC installation made the house unsafe and
undesirable to buy.

2. For appliances that consume a lot of power, a safe alternative to
half-assing a 220VAC installation is tapping into the gas line. Of
course you have to think about what you need and how you will power
it.

> >> So the electrician has been here, and the whole thing is working fine.
> >> One problem is that while I watched where he put the receptacle to make
> >> sure the range would be able to slide up against the wall, I missed one
> >> thing. *The cord that goes from the receptacle to the stove is too close
> >> to the cabinet so the stove STILL doesn't slide all the way in, but I
> >> can fix that part myself. *Just need to move the receptacle now that
> >> it's wired. *Yes, I will turn off the circuit breaker.
>
> >Wood butchery is easier than electrical work. Make sure you don't
> >strain the wire connections in the process.
>
> Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. *Because
> most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
> are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
> properly. *And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
> placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.
>

Good point, the homeowner should not have had to move the receptacle.

On Oct 16, 2:50*pm, Cheryl > wrote:

> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.

There are two possibilities here, neither of them particularly good news.

(1) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
(red and black) and a ground wire, like you just stated. This is likely
if the the third wire is bare copper. You can hook up your stove, but
some features that reuiqre 120V will not work, such as lights, timers,
and electronics. Possibly the stove won't function at all due to some
missing electronic functionality.

(2) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
and the neutral wire. So if you hook up the stove, it would function,
but it would not be grounded, so you can't really do that.

Either way you need a new circuit.

There's actually a third possibility, which is that all four wires
are there, but you cannot see the bare ground wire because it has
been connected to the metal box with in some not-immediately-obvious-
at-first-glance position. That would be good news.

What I would fear is that you're in situation (1) and the circuit
was intended for something like a water heater that does not have
any 120V sections.

Steve

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:17:57 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
>> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
>> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
>> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
>> and the stove.
>
>I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
>snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.
>
>The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
>new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
>came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
>it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
>receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
>hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.
>
>You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
>about a fire.

I asked you to pull it out and take a picture and you said you were
going to have your brother do it. You didn't.

Here's a link with replies that say about what I said.

<http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_wire_the_three_240V_wires_coming_out_of _the_wall_to_a_4-wire_stove_plug>

Notice they say not to connect the neutral and ground which is what
I'm pretty sure your friend did in that magical box and cord.

Hard to tell because you can't give enough details.

Lou

On 10/16/2011 7:46 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> On Oct 16, 2:50 pm, > wrote:
>
>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.
>
> There are two possibilities here, neither of them particularly good news.
>
> (1) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
> (red and black) and a ground wire, like you just stated. This is likely
> if the the third wire is bare copper. You can hook up your stove, but
> some features that reuiqre 120V will not work, such as lights, timers,
> and electronics. Possibly the stove won't function at all due to some
> missing electronic functionality.
>
> (2) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
> and the neutral wire. So if you hook up the stove, it would function,
> but it would not be grounded, so you can't really do that.
>
> Either way you need a new circuit.
>
> There's actually a third possibility, which is that all four wires
> are there, but you cannot see the bare ground wire because it has
> been connected to the metal box with in some not-immediately-obvious-
> at-first-glance position. That would be good news.
>
> What I would fear is that you're in situation (1) and the circuit
> was intended for something like a water heater that does not have
> any 120V sections.

Thanks Steve. The lights, digital controls, timer all work. I've
tested the oven from preheat to fully heated, used two burners at the
same time, and everything is working. I hope I have possibility 3.

The original circuit already used to be used by an electric stove. It
didn't have the digital controls and lighted control panel, and it
didn't even have an interior light. But it was a normal old electric range.

On 10/16/2011 7:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. Because
> most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
> are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
> properly. And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
> placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.

The bonehead part I agree with, and he should have made sure it was
flush to the wall, but when we talked, my original request was for a
receptacle to house a 4 prong range cord. I did mention the range, but
I'm sure he didn't expect to have to help with making that perfect. He
did what I paid him to do. And it wasn't my brother's friend because I
didn't hear back from him this morning and I was in a hurry so I got an
electrician that would come on a Sunday without additional charges.
Licensed, yes, I checked.

On 10/16/2011 3:12 PM, sf wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:50:25 -0400, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. Why can't
>>>>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>>>>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>>>>> use it for the new one.
>>>>> Problem solved.
>>>>
>>>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>>>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.
>>>
>>>
>> I honestly have no idea. I guess the receptacle box converts it.
>
> Just don't hurt your back anymore than it already is.
>
Thanks sweetie. I had to do the work in stages because it is
particularly bad today. All weekend actually. I also had my deck
refinished over the weekend finally since we have some dry weather. I
got this finish called Deck Helmet. What a great job they did! It is a
composite coating over the existing wood. Reduces maintenance. After
all this I had to go inspect it and couldn't wait to get back to a chair
to sit down. I'm done for the night except for some laundry finishing
up. These last two weekends have taken a toll.

Cheryl > wrote:

>> On Oct 16, 2:50 pm, > wrote:

>>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.

[snip]

>Thanks Steve. The lights, digital controls, timer all work. I've
>tested the oven from preheat to fully heated, used two burners at the
>same time, and everything is working. I hope I have possibility 3.

Good to hear it's working!


Steve

On 10/16/2011 8:09 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:17:57 -0400, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
>>> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
>>> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
>>> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
>>> and the stove.
>>
>> I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
>> snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.
>>
>> The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
>> new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
>> came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
>> it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
>> receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
>> hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.
>>
>> You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
>> about a fire.
>
> I asked you to pull it out and take a picture and you said you were
> going to have your brother do it. You didn't.
>
> Here's a link with replies that say about what I said.
>
> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_wire_the_three_240V_wires_coming_out_of _the_wall_to_a_4-wire_stove_plug>
>
> Notice they say not to connect the neutral and ground which is what
> I'm pretty sure your friend did in that magical box and cord.
>
> Hard to tell because you can't give enough details.

Thanks for the link. This part is of interest to me.

"Again, if you are wiring a new outlet you need all 4 wires for a 4 wire
plug. Pull new wire if you can, it is safer. If you can't, use the older
3 wire plug. The 3 wire plug does not meet code for new work, but is
allowed for old work. Do not under any circumstances connect ground and
neutral at the outlet That is dangerous and illegal. Do it right or
don't do it at all."

So I could have asked for a 3 prong plug? I will call the owner of the
electrician company I used and ask about that.

I can still get pictures because I can easily pull the range out. This
isn't an excuse but sort of is, but I'm on pain killers and get sort of
foggy.

Thanks for all of the info. Now I'm concerned.

>

On 10/16/2011 8:09 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:17:57 -0400, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
>>> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
>>> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
>>> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
>>> and the stove.
>>
>> I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
>> snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.
>>
>> The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
>> new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
>> came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
>> it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
>> receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
>> hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.
>>
>> You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
>> about a fire.
>
> I asked you to pull it out and take a picture and you said you were
> going to have your brother do it. You didn't.
>
> Here's a link with replies that say about what I said.
>
> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_wire_the_three_240V_wires_coming_out_of _the_wall_to_a_4-wire_stove_plug>
>
> Notice they say not to connect the neutral and ground which is what
> I'm pretty sure your friend did in that magical box and cord.
>
> Hard to tell because you can't give enough details.
>
>
After reading more and after watching the elec do his work, I think he
did exactly what was said in that link not to do - I think he wired the
neutral and ground together in the receptacle.

In article
>,
spamtrap1888 > wrote:

> On Oct 16, 4:19*pm, Lou Decruss > wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888

> > >On Oct 16, 10:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:

> > >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> > >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,

> > >Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the *house
> > >when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
> > >another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
> > >to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
> > >some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
> > >the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
> > >to a surface mount receptacle.
> >
> > >I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
> > >the water heater.

ObFood: I know that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Sounds like it's not so hard to squeeze 220VAC out of a gas line.

:-)

> > Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? *What does the gas line or
> > the water heater have to do with anything?
>
> 1. A half-assed 220 VAC installation made the house unsafe and
> undesirable to buy.
>
> 2. For appliances that consume a lot of power, a safe alternative to
> half-assing a 220VAC installation is tapping into the gas line. Of
> course you have to think about what you need and how you will power
> it.

I actually think I understand what was meant, but a few steps were left
out.

> > >Wood butchery is easier than electrical work. Make sure you don't
> > >strain the wire connections in the process.
> >
> > Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. *Because
> > most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
> > are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
> > properly. *And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
> > placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.

> Good point, the homeowner should not have had to move the receptacle.

I was going to misunderstand that one also, but then it came to me.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On 10/16/2011 9:26 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> In article
> >,
> > wrote:
>
>> On Oct 16, 4:19 pm, Lou > wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
>
>>>> On Oct 16, 10:47 am, > wrote:
>
>>>>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>>>>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires. So something had to go between,
>
>>>> Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the house
>>>> when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
>>>> another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
>>>> to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
>>>> some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
>>>> the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
>>>> to a surface mount receptacle.
>>>
>>>> I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
>>>> the water heater.
>
> ObFood: I know that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.
>
> Sounds like it's not so hard to squeeze 220VAC out of a gas line.
>
> :-)
>
>>> Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? What does the gas line or
>>> the water heater have to do with anything?
>>
>> 1. A half-assed 220 VAC installation made the house unsafe and
>> undesirable to buy.
>>
>> 2. For appliances that consume a lot of power, a safe alternative to
>> half-assing a 220VAC installation is tapping into the gas line. Of
>> course you have to think about what you need and how you will power
>> it.
>
> I actually think I understand what was meant, but a few steps were left
> out.
>
>>>> Wood butchery is easier than electrical work. Make sure you don't
>>>> strain the wire connections in the process.
>>>
>>> Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. Because
>>> most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
>>> are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
>>> properly. And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
>>> placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.
>
>> Good point, the homeowner should not have had to move the receptacle.
>
> I was going to misunderstand that one also, but then it came to me.
>
I didn't go cheap either. I'm just naive.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:46:37 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

>On Oct 16, 2:50*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
>
>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.
>
>There are two possibilities here, neither of them particularly good news.
>
>(1) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
>(red and black) and a ground wire, like you just stated. This is likely
>if the the third wire is bare copper. You can hook up your stove, but
>some features that reuiqre 120V will not work, such as lights, timers,
>and electronics. Possibly the stove won't function at all due to some
>missing electronic functionality.
>
>(2) The three wires in the existing circuit are the two hot wires
>and the neutral wire. So if you hook up the stove, it would function,
>but it would not be grounded, so you can't really do that.
>
>Either way you need a new circuit.
>
>There's actually a third possibility, which is that all four wires
>are there, but you cannot see the bare ground wire because it has
>been connected to the metal box with in some not-immediately-obvious-
>at-first-glance position. That would be good news.

Read up-thread. There was no box. She has a single phase 240 volt
circuit with a ground. There is no neutral there.
>
>What I would fear is that you're in situation (1) and the circuit
>was intended for something like a water heater that does not have
>any 120V sections.

The circuit was intended for the stove that was there when the house
was built. Things have changed. A hot water heater draws less power
and has smaller wires.

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:40:56 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

>On Oct 16, 4:19*pm, Lou Decruss > wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888

>> > wrote:
>> >On Oct 16, 10:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
>> >> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> >> > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
>> >> > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>> >> > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>> >> > use it for the new one.
>> >> > Problem solved.
>>
>> >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>> >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
>> >> and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
>> >> those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
>> >> pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>>
>> >Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the *house
>> >when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
>> >another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
>> >to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
>> >some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
>> >the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
>> >to a surface mount receptacle.
>>
>> >I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
>> >the water heater.
>>
>> Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? *What does the gas line or
>> the water heater have to do with anything?
>
>1. A half-assed 220 VAC installation made the house unsafe and
>undesirable to buy.
>
>2. For appliances that consume a lot of power, a safe alternative to
>half-assing a 220VAC installation is tapping into the gas line. Of
>course you have to think about what you need and how you will power
>it.

Are you talking about converting the electric dryer to gas?

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:34:20 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 10/16/2011 8:09 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:17:57 -0400, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
>>>> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
>>>> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
>>>> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
>>>> and the stove.
>>>
>>> I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
>>> snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.
>>>
>>> The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
>>> new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
>>> came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
>>> it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
>>> receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
>>> hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.
>>>
>>> You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
>>> about a fire.
>>
>> I asked you to pull it out and take a picture and you said you were
>> going to have your brother do it. You didn't.
>>
>> Here's a link with replies that say about what I said.
>>
>> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_wire_the_three_240V_wires_coming_out_of _the_wall_to_a_4-wire_stove_plug>
>>
>> Notice they say not to connect the neutral and ground which is what
>> I'm pretty sure your friend did in that magical box and cord.
>>
>> Hard to tell because you can't give enough details.
>
>Thanks for the link. This part is of interest to me.
>
>"Again, if you are wiring a new outlet you need all 4 wires for a 4 wire
>plug. Pull new wire if you can, it is safer. If you can't, use the older
>3 wire plug. The 3 wire plug does not meet code for new work, but is
>allowed for old work. Do not under any circumstances connect ground and
>neutral at the outlet That is dangerous and illegal. Do it right or
>don't do it at all."
>
>So I could have asked for a 3 prong plug?

it wouldn't have made a difference.

>I will call the owner of the
>electrician company I used and ask about that.

i'm sure that will go well. <g>

>I can still get pictures because I can easily pull the range out. This
>isn't an excuse but sort of is, but I'm on pain killers and get sort of
>foggy.
>
>Thanks for all of the info. Now I'm concerned.

Your's isn't the only stove in the world wired that way.
Chances are you'll be fine but it's not a very professional way to do
it. The cable you have coming out of the wall isn't even code here and
never has been. Everything is in pipe and it's easy to pull another
wire.

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:42:38 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 10/16/2011 8:09 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:17:57 -0400, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/16/2011 5:49 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
>>>> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
>>>> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
>>>> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
>>>> and the stove.
>>>
>>> I get snip happy sometimes and my reply to your previous post, I did
>>> snip what I wanted, and left what I didn't want. Oh well.
>>>
>>> The extra wire came from the power cord that goes from the range to the
>>> new receptacle. The receptacle was wired using the existing cable that
>>> came from the breaker box. It is a full 220/240 whatever it is because
>>> it uses two blocks in the circuit breaker box. How it was wired to the
>>> receptacle is not known to me because I don't know about these things so
>>> hired a licensed electrician and hope he did his job right.
>>>
>>> You guys are making me feel like I was ripped off and now have to worry
>>> about a fire.
>>
>> I asked you to pull it out and take a picture and you said you were
>> going to have your brother do it. You didn't.
>>
>> Here's a link with replies that say about what I said.
>>
>> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_wire_the_three_240V_wires_coming_out_of _the_wall_to_a_4-wire_stove_plug>
>>
>> Notice they say not to connect the neutral and ground which is what
>> I'm pretty sure your friend did in that magical box and cord.
>>
>> Hard to tell because you can't give enough details.
>>
>>
>After reading more and after watching the elec do his work, I think he
>did exactly what was said in that link not to do - I think he wired the
>neutral and ground together in the receptacle.

I did say that's what I assumed he did. Doing that he could have just
used the cable and jumped it out at the dryer. Would have saved you
the cost of the receptacle.

Lou

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:16:06 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 10/16/2011 7:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. Because
>> most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
>> are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
>> properly. And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
>> placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.
>
>The bonehead part I agree with, and he should have made sure it was
>flush to the wall,

Both plumbers and electricians rough them in months before the stove
is delivered. There's no excuse for it to be wrong if the stove was
already there.

> but when we talked, my original request was for a
>receptacle to house a 4 prong range cord. I did mention the range,

He should have known and informed you.

> but I'm sure he didn't expect to have to help with making that perfect.

Why did you hire him then?

> He
>did what I paid him to do. And it wasn't my brother's friend because I
>didn't hear back from him this morning and I was in a hurry so I got an
>electrician that would come on a Sunday without additional charges.

ok

>Licensed, yes, I checked.

The owner needs a licence. The people in the field don't need one
even in Chicago which has some tough codes. I don't think your house
is going to burn down and since you're in romex there isn't pipe
carrying a load. But it's still not done proper.

Lou

Lou Decruss > wrote:

>Read up-thread. There was no box.

I'm hoping there was a box, since even if there is no outlet and
the stove is wired directly to the circuit, this connection
must be made inside a box.

>She has a single phase 240 volt
>circuit with a ground. There is no neutral there.

Right.


Steve

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:00:01 -0500, Lou Decruss
> wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:16:06 -0400, Cheryl >
>wrote:
>
>>On 10/16/2011 7:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>> Electrical work is easier but requires some time to learn. Because
>>> most of the trades have such a large group of areas involved not many
>>> are masters at all aspects but ALL should be able to wire a stove
>>> properly. And if the bone head had the stove there he should have
>>> placed it in the proper place so it would set to the wall.
>>
>>The bonehead part I agree with, and he should have made sure it was
>>flush to the wall,
>
>Both plumbers and electricians rough them in months before the stove
>is delivered. There's no excuse for it to be wrong if the stove was
>already there.

The bonehead was you, Cheryl.

>> but when we talked, my original request was for a
>>receptacle to house a 4 prong range cord. I did mention the range,
>
>He should have known and informed you.
>
>> but I'm sure he didn't expect to have to help with making that perfect.
>
>Why did you hire him then?
>
>> He
>>did what I paid him to do. And it wasn't my brother's friend because I
>>didn't hear back from him this morning and I was in a hurry

Being impatient is very indicative of boneheadedness, Cheryl.

>so I got an
>>electrician that would come on a Sunday without additional charges.
>
>ok
>
>>Licensed, yes, I checked.
>
>The owner needs a licence. The people in the field don't need one
>even in Chicago which has some tough codes. I don't think your house
>is going to burn down and since you're in romex there isn't pipe
>carrying a load. But it's still not done proper.

The new stove should have been connected to the existing hard wire the
same as the old stove, exactly how I indicated previously... there was
no need to call an electrician or to add a recepticle (I bet the wire
was cut off too rather than shoving it back into the wall so just in
case of a do over). One of the very first things I mentioned was that
Cheryl is an airhead and would get ripped off... and she is and she
did. Cheryl is the one who looked behind her old stove, saw it was
hardwired and rather than think said "shit" and figured she just had
to get plugged... she probably hasn't been plugged in years. The
appliance store delivery person in all probability would have gladly
installed the new stove and made the wiring connection... whoever
disconnected the old stove should have connected the new stove, some
airhead didn't let them. I've had several replacement stoves
delivered over the years, the appliance retailer always arranged for
connection and charged nothing. Gas appliances the same... only needs
a plumber for a new installation, and with propane the propane dealer
will nearly always make the installation for free, or at a very
nominal charge. It's always a good idea to buy apliances from the
same place, and tip well... even if a different delivery person your
reputation precedes you... even at your favorite resto/tavern if you
get a different/new server someone will clue them in... my philosophy
is tip well or why did you return. I don't return to an eatery just
so I can stiff the server.

Cheryl wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>
>>>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. Why can't
>>>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
>>>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
>>>> use it for the new one.
>>>> Problem solved.
>>>
>>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
>>> one ground. The oven requires 4 wires.
>>
>>
> I honestly have no idea. I guess the receptacle box converts it.


I know this is a little late, but the oven probably does NOT require 4
wires. It should have 2 different cords available and a little
grounding jumper in the wiring box to remove if you uses a 4-wire cord
or add for a 3-wire.

Four wires is better. The 3-wire hookup is not legal if installed in
a mobile home or if the circuit breakers for the stove are in a
subpanel (rather than the main panel)

-Bob

On Oct 17, 11:04*am, (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Lou Decruss > wrote:
>
> >Read up-thread. *There was no box. *
>
> I'm hoping there was a box, since even if there is no outlet and
> the stove is wired directly to the circuit, this connection
> must be made inside a box.
>
> >She has a single phase 240 volt
> >circuit with a ground. *There is no neutral there. *
>
> Right.
>

Au contraire. She has a single phase 240 volt circuit with a neutral.
There is no grounding wire there. Unless the frame is grounded to a
water pipe in the kitchen, which used to be code compliant.

On Oct 17, 7:08*am, Lou Decruss > wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:40:56 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Oct 16, 4:19*pm, Lou Decruss > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> >> > wrote:
> >> >On Oct 16, 10:47*am, Cheryl > wrote:
> >> >> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> >> >> > How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> >> >> > it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> >> >> > Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> >> >> > use it for the new one.
> >> >> > Problem solved.
>
> >> >> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> >> >> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires. *So something had to go between,
> >> >> and a receptacle is the best choice. *I wouldn't have known how to make
> >> >> those two wires and the ground wire into the receptacle even if I had
> >> >> pictures from the web, which I did. *I just don't mess with that stuff.
>
> >> >Plus the proper installation will make it easier to sell the *house
> >> >when the time comes. The guy we bought our house from had jury rigged
> >> >another 220 line to run a dryer: He couldn't find another 220 breaker
> >> >to fit the panel, so he took off the protective sheet metal plate, ran
> >> >some romex through the attic, letting a circuit breaker dangle inside
> >> >the breaker box and running the other end down the laundry room wall
> >> >to a surface mount receptacle.
>
> >> >I make him rip everything out and make a tee into the gas line serving
> >> >the water heater.
>
> >> Were you drinking when you wrote this dix? *What does the gas line or
> >> the water heater have to do with anything?
>
> >1. A half-assed 220 VAC installation made the house unsafe and
> >undesirable to buy.
>
> >2. For appliances that consume a lot of power, a safe alternative to
> >half-assing a 220VAC installation is tapping into the gas line. Of
> >course you have to think about what you need and how you will power
> >it.
>
> Are you talking about converting the electric dryer to gas?
>

No. I'm talking about thinking about how you will supply energy to a
dryer (or a range) before you buy one. You don't just wait for the
delivery guy to show up and think, "Gee, how am I going to plug this
in?" And you definitely don't make an unsafe electrical installation
-- like the guy we bought the house from did -- just to make his
electric dryer work. Especially when it is so easy to make a safe gas
connection.

On Oct 17, 12:13*pm, zxcvbob > wrote:
> Cheryl wrote:
> > On 10/16/2011 2:19 PM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:47:15 -0400, >
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On 10/15/2011 12:03 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> >>>> How old is the hardwire wire that comes out of the wall. * *Why can't
> >>>> it be used to hardwire the new stove?
> >>>> Seems to me you could unhook the old stove from the hard wire and then
> >>>> use it for the new one.
> >>>> Problem solved.
>
> >>> The old wire coming out of the wall is split into three; two 120v and
> >>> one ground. *The oven requires 4 wires.
>
> > I honestly have no idea. *I guess the receptacle box converts it.
>
> I know this is a little late, but the oven probably does NOT require 4
> wires. *It should have 2 different cords available and a little
> grounding jumper in the wiring box to remove if you uses a 4-wire cord
> or add for a 3-wire.
>
> Four wires is better. *The 3-wire hookup is not legal if installed in
> a mobile home or if the circuit breakers for the stove are in a
> subpanel (rather than the main panel)
>

Here's a good explanation of the old way and how to upgrade it:

In the past, wire cable for kitchen ranges included two hot wires and
a stranded ground/neutral. This type of cable is called service
entrance conductor (SE) cable. The range receptacle for this kind of
cable accommodated a three-prong plug configuration. The problem with
this arrangement was that the current-carrying neutral was the same as
the ground for the appliance frame. Today, wire cables for kitchen
ranges are still required to carry two hot conductors, and an
equipment ground, but an additional wire, a white, insulated, neutral
wire must also be included.

http://www.realtor.com/home-garden/d...eceptacle.aspx

On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> > wrote:
>
>> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > wrote:
>>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > wrote:
>
>>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
>>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>>>
>>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>>
>> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
>> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>
> I've never heard it used. It handles the balance of the load between
> phases. Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
> directional. I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
> see how he/she used the term. If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
> balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. The same will
> happen out in the field. It's damn near impossible to have that
> situation in the real world.

My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was looking for
one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!

>
> In the case of Cheryl's stove if the timer is running and the light is
> on the ground wire should read zero when amprobed. If there is a load
> on the ground it's not wired right and he cheated. It's not my
> concern but I'm puzzled how the extra wire appeared between the wall
> and the stove.
>
> Lou

On Oct 17, 4:20*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> > > *wrote:
>
> >> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > *wrote:
> >>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > *wrote:
>
> >>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
> >>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
> >>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>
> >>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>
> >> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
> >> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>
> > I've never heard it used. *It handles the balance of the load between
> > phases. *Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
> > directional. *I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
> > see how he/she used the term. *If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
> > balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. *The same will
> > happen out in the field. *It's damn near impossible to have that
> > situation in the real world.
>
> My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
> haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was looking for
> one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
> indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!
>

Return path is a DC circuit term.

Lou explained what's going on in house wiring. Each hot lead serves as
the "return" for the other. But, if the loads are unbalanced, then
current will flow on the neutral, proportional to the imbalance.

spamtrap1888 > wrote:

>In the past, wire cable for kitchen ranges included two hot wires and
>a stranded ground/neutral. This type of cable is called service
>entrance conductor (SE) cable. The range receptacle for this kind of
>cable accommodated a three-prong plug configuration. The problem with
>this arrangement was that the current-carrying neutral was the same as
>the ground for the appliance frame. Today, wire cables for kitchen
>ranges are still required to carry two hot conductors, and an
>equipment ground, but an additional wire, a white, insulated, neutral
>wire must also be included.

Aha. This may explain why, when connecting a four-wire stove to an
older three-wire circuit, the NEC wants you NOT to bridge the
neutral and ground in the receptacle (as opposed to the appliance):
because you would then be using a wirenut on a stranded wire,
which is generally a really really bad idea.

It would be an especially bad idea to use a wirenut on a stranded
wire and then have this connection not in a box. And very especially
bad to do all this in earthquake country...


S.

On 10/17/2011 1:30 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
> On Oct 17, 4:20 pm, > wrote:
>> On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>>>>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
>>>>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>>
>>>>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>>
>>>> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
>>>> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>>
>>> I've never heard it used. It handles the balance of the load between
>>> phases. Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
>>> directional. I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
>>> see how he/she used the term. If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
>>> balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. The same will
>>> happen out in the field. It's damn near impossible to have that
>>> situation in the real world.
>>
>> My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
>> haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was looking for
>> one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
>> indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!
>>
>
> Return path is a DC circuit term.

Thanks for the info.

>
> Lou explained what's going on in house wiring. Each hot lead serves as
> the "return" for the other. But, if the loads are unbalanced, then
> current will flow on the neutral, proportional to the imbalance.

I guess you could see it that way but the neutral wire would really be
used in conjunction with one of the hot wires to provide power to the
subsystems so even if you're not using the 220 circuit, current still
flows through the neutral.

OTOH, I haven't really studied the circuit for a modern electronic
stove. You could make an electronic stove that doesn't need a neutral
but that would add complexity. The chassis should still be grounded though.

On Oct 17, 5:05*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 1:30 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 17, 4:20 pm, > *wrote:
> >> On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> >>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> >>> > * *wrote:
>
> >>>> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > * *wrote:
> >>>>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > * *wrote:
>
> >>>>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
> >>>>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
> >>>>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>
> >>>>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>
> >>>> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
> >>>> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>
> >>> I've never heard it used. *It handles the balance of the load between
> >>> phases. *Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
> >>> directional. *I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
> >>> see how he/she used the term. *If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
> >>> balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. *The same will
> >>> happen out in the field. *It's damn near impossible to have that
> >>> situation in the real world.
>
> >> My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
> >> haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was looking for
> >> one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
> >> indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!
>
> > Return path is a DC circuit term.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
>
>
> > Lou explained what's going on in house wiring. Each hot lead serves as
> > the "return" for the other. But, if the loads are unbalanced, then
> > current will flow on the neutral, proportional to the imbalance.
>
> I guess you could see it that way but the neutral wire would really be
> used in conjunction with one of the hot wires to provide power to the
> subsystems so even if you're not using the 220 circuit, current still
> flows through the neutral.
>
> OTOH, I haven't really studied the circuit for a modern electronic
> stove. You could make an electronic stove that doesn't need a neutral
> but that would add complexity. The chassis should still be grounded though.

Finding a diagram of how household wiring works is hard as hell. This
is the best I could find. Scroll down to the figure Step-down
transformer with center-tapped secondary winding. The top and bottom
leads are the hots, while the center tap is the neutral. Scrolling to
the next figure makes it clear: the two hot leads are 180 degrees out
of phase.

If you like to think in terms of the "return," then the neutral line
is the "return" for both hot leads. Except, if the loads are exactly
balanced (Figure on next page, entitled "Split phase system draws half
the current of 125 A at 240 Vac compared to 120 Vac system.") zero
current flows on the neutral. Again, if the loads are unbalanced,
current will flow in the neutral.

Now, in the case of the 240 VAC powered range, the lamps, timers,
spark lighters, etc., will likely be hooked between one hot lead and
neutral. Thus the range will generate an unbalanced load. But if other
appliances are drawing current, they may cancel out the current
injected into the neutral by the range.

http://www.web-books.com/eLibrary/ON...077MB1396.html

On 10/17/2011 5:48 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
> On Oct 17, 5:05 pm, > wrote:
>> On 10/17/2011 1:30 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 17, 4:20 pm, > wrote:
>>>> On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
>>>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>>>>>>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V lines to
>>>>>>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>>
>>>>>>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>>
>>>>>> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to call it
>>>>>> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>>
>>>>> I've never heard it used. It handles the balance of the load between
>>>>> phases. Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
>>>>> directional. I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
>>>>> see how he/she used the term. If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
>>>>> balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. The same will
>>>>> happen out in the field. It's damn near impossible to have that
>>>>> situation in the real world.
>>
>>>> My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
>>>> haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was looking for
>>>> one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
>>>> indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!
>>
>>> Return path is a DC circuit term.
>>
>> Thanks for the info.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Lou explained what's going on in house wiring. Each hot lead serves as
>>> the "return" for the other. But, if the loads are unbalanced, then
>>> current will flow on the neutral, proportional to the imbalance.
>>
>> I guess you could see it that way but the neutral wire would really be
>> used in conjunction with one of the hot wires to provide power to the
>> subsystems so even if you're not using the 220 circuit, current still
>> flows through the neutral.
>>
>> OTOH, I haven't really studied the circuit for a modern electronic
>> stove. You could make an electronic stove that doesn't need a neutral
>> but that would add complexity. The chassis should still be grounded though.
>
> Finding a diagram of how household wiring works is hard as hell. This
> is the best I could find. Scroll down to the figure Step-down
> transformer with center-tapped secondary winding. The top and bottom
> leads are the hots, while the center tap is the neutral. Scrolling to
> the next figure makes it clear: the two hot leads are 180 degrees out
> of phase.

My thinking is the "return" is the wire coming out of the power station
which carries the current back back to the station. Outside of your
house, the high voltage line and return go through one side of a
transformer and gets converted to 2 120V legs which are 180 degrees out
of phase with each other and a center-tap which is common or neutral to
both legs. My guess is that's why "return" is not used at the home user
level.

>
> If you like to think in terms of the "return," then the neutral line
> is the "return" for both hot leads. Except, if the loads are exactly
> balanced (Figure on next page, entitled "Split phase system draws half
> the current of 125 A at 240 Vac compared to 120 Vac system.") zero
> current flows on the neutral. Again, if the loads are unbalanced,
> current will flow in the neutral.

I agree that the stove presents an unbalanced load. You could probably
design a balanced-load stove but appliances tend to be primitive in
build and wiring and evidently it doesn't matter much. My guess is that
it all averages out in the end.

>
> Now, in the case of the 240 VAC powered range, the lamps, timers,
> spark lighters, etc., will likely be hooked between one hot lead and
> neutral. Thus the range will generate an unbalanced load. But if other
> appliances are drawing current, they may cancel out the current
> injected into the neutral by the range.
>
> http://www.web-books.com/eLibrary/ON...077MB1396.html

On 10/18/2011 3:06 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 5:48 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>> On Oct 17, 5:05 pm, > wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2011 1:30 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 17, 4:20 pm, > wrote:
>>>>> On 10/16/2011 11:49 AM, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 10:10 am, > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 1:09 pm, > wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> The fourth wire is the wire that your wiring uses for the 120V
>>>>>>>>> appliances. It is used in conjunction with one of the 120V
>>>>>>>>> lines to
>>>>>>>>> supply power for the control systems and the oven light.
>>>
>>>>>>>> dsi is talking about the neutral wire.
>>>
>>>>>>> When I was going to electronics school, the instructor used to
>>>>>>> call it
>>>>>>> the return. Is the term "return" ever used by electricians? Thanks.
>>>
>>>>>> I've never heard it used. It handles the balance of the load between
>>>>>> phases. Return doesn't make much sense as AC current isn't
>>>>>> directional. I guess if you're sharing a neutral between phases I can
>>>>>> see how he/she used the term. If you put an amprobe on a perfectly
>>>>>> balanced panel the incoming neutral will read zero. The same will
>>>>>> happen out in the field. It's damn near impossible to have that
>>>>>> situation in the real world.
>>>
>>>>> My guess is that the return path is mostly a power generation term. I
>>>>> haven't seen the word used in household wiring either. I was
>>>>> looking for
>>>>> one of those hot wire probes that used your body to light up the neon
>>>>> indicator. They don't seem to sell them anymore. Dangit!
>>>
>>>> Return path is a DC circuit term.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the info.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lou explained what's going on in house wiring. Each hot lead serves as
>>>> the "return" for the other. But, if the loads are unbalanced, then
>>>> current will flow on the neutral, proportional to the imbalance.
>>>
>>> I guess you could see it that way but the neutral wire would really be
>>> used in conjunction with one of the hot wires to provide power to the
>>> subsystems so even if you're not using the 220 circuit, current still
>>> flows through the neutral.
>>>
>>> OTOH, I haven't really studied the circuit for a modern electronic
>>> stove. You could make an electronic stove that doesn't need a neutral
>>> but that would add complexity. The chassis should still be grounded
>>> though.
>>
>> Finding a diagram of how household wiring works is hard as hell. This
>> is the best I could find. Scroll down to the figure Step-down
>> transformer with center-tapped secondary winding. The top and bottom
>> leads are the hots, while the center tap is the neutral. Scrolling to
>> the next figure makes it clear: the two hot leads are 180 degrees out
>> of phase.
>
> My thinking is the "return" is the wire coming out of the power station
> which carries the current back back to the station. Outside of your
> house, the high voltage line and return go through one side of a
> transformer and gets converted to 2 120V legs which are 180 degrees out
> of phase with each other and a center-tap which is common or neutral to
> both legs. My guess is that's why "return" is not used at the home user
> level.
>
>>
>> If you like to think in terms of the "return," then the neutral line
>> is the "return" for both hot leads. Except, if the loads are exactly
>> balanced (Figure on next page, entitled "Split phase system draws half
>> the current of 125 A at 240 Vac compared to 120 Vac system.") zero
>> current flows on the neutral. Again, if the loads are unbalanced,
>> current will flow in the neutral.
>
> I agree that the stove presents an unbalanced load. You could probably
> design a balanced-load stove but appliances tend to be primitive in
> build and wiring and evidently it doesn't matter much. My guess is that
> it all averages out in the end.
>
>>
>> Now, in the case of the 240 VAC powered range, the lamps, timers,
>> spark lighters, etc., will likely be hooked between one hot lead and
>> neutral. Thus the range will generate an unbalanced load. But if other
>> appliances are drawing current, they may cancel out the current
>> injected into the neutral by the range.
>>
>> http://www.web-books.com/eLibrary/ON...077MB1396.html
>

Thanks all. Since there are millions of people who don't understand a
single word of this thread, like me, I am satisfied that it won't burn
down my home. It might not be done "right" which can be interpreted by
people in the know in various ways like anything else, but the rest I'm
going to take offline.

I really appreciate the feedback and I am not bothered by the insults,
Shelly.