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General Cooking (rec.food.cooking) For general food and cooking discussion. Foods of all kinds, food procurement, cooking methods and techniques, eating, etc. |
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Lynn Gifford has passed.
Blake Murphy has passed. Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. Sonofabitch! Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 now), parents, and brother. -- Barb, http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 |
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On 10/28/2011 11:16 AM, Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> Lynn Gifford has passed. > Blake Murphy has passed. > Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > > Sonofabitch! > > Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember > Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was > the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian > to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived > in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. > Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm > someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for > others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I > will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva > and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 > now), parents, and brother. I really liked her, I remember she lost her daughter. Very hard. RIP, Helle. nancy |
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On 10/28/2011 9:16 AM, Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> Lynn Gifford has passed. > Blake Murphy has passed. > Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > > Sonofabitch! Too young. Much too young. My condolences for the loss of your friend. |
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![]() Melba's Jammin' wrote: > > Lynn Gifford has passed. > Blake Murphy has passed. > Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > > Sonofabitch! > > Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember > Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was > the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian > to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived > in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. > Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm > someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for > others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I > will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva > and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 > now), parents, and brother. > -- > Barb, > http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 Definitely a high mortality rate in this group. |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:42:47 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote: > >Melba's Jammin' wrote: >> >> Lynn Gifford has passed. >> Blake Murphy has passed. >> Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. >> >> Sonofabitch! >> >> Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember >> Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was >> the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian >> to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived >> in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. >> Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm >> someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for >> others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I >> will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva >> and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 >> now), parents, and brother. >> -- >> Barb, >> http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 > >Definitely a high mortality rate in this group. Maybe because we tend to know who posts here and there is almost always someone who is in touch with another one (the jerks excepted) in person or in email. We tend to notice when some is no longer here. In many other newsgroups I imagine that when people aren't posting it is assumed they just quit if, anyone notices. -- Susan N. "Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy." Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974) |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:16:52 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> wrote: >Lynn Gifford has passed. >Blake Murphy has passed. >Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > >Sonofabitch! > >Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember >Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was >the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian >to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived >in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. >Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm >someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for >others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I >will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva >and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 >now), parents, and brother. I remember Helle, was a long time ago. And I always thought the Norse lived past 100. RIP |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:16:52 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> wrote: >Lynn Gifford has passed. >Blake Murphy has passed. >Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > >Sonofabitch! > >Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember >Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was >the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian >to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived >in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. >Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm >someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for >others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I >will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva >and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 >now), parents, and brother. Anyone remember Buffy (something) who wrote huge posts about traveling and never responded back? Lou |
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![]() The Cook wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:42:47 -0500, "Pete C." > > wrote: > > > > >Melba's Jammin' wrote: > >> > >> Lynn Gifford has passed. > >> Blake Murphy has passed. > >> Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > >> > >> Sonofabitch! > >> > >> Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember > >> Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was > >> the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian > >> to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived > >> in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. > >> Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm > >> someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for > >> others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I > >> will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva > >> and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 > >> now), parents, and brother. > >> -- > >> Barb, > >> http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 > > > >Definitely a high mortality rate in this group. > > Maybe because we tend to know who posts here and there is almost > always someone who is in touch with another one (the jerks excepted) > in person or in email. We tend to notice when some is no longer here. > In many other newsgroups I imagine that when people aren't posting it > is assumed they just quit if, anyone notices. That may be true for some groups, but not generally for the ones I frequent. Each has a number of core folks, many have met each other in person at various times and they keep in touch. When one of those regulars passes it is well noted, when one of those regulars is ill, or has close relatives who are ill it is also noted. |
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In article >,
Melba's Jammin' > wrote: >Lynn Gifford has passed. >Blake Murphy has passed. >Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. > >Sonofabitch! > >Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember >Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was >the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian >to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived >in Troms? Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. >Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm >someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for >others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I >will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva >and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 >now), parents, and brother. I see your "Sonofabitch!" and raise it a "Holy Shit!". RIP Helle and Blake. You will be missed. Charlotte -- |
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On Oct 28, 11:16*am, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote: > Lynn Gifford has passed. > Blake Murphy has passed. I remember posting with Blake Murphy a few times. Who knows, mabye in some strange way posting within a group to someone who is about to die has some sort of contagious aspect to it. Hope not. They say the good die young. I guess that means I'm no good, or at least well on my way to being that way. TJ |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:54:15 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe
> wrote: > I guess that means I'm no good, I call it "too ornery to die". -- All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt. |
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On Oct 28, 7:18*pm, sf > wrote:
> > wrote: > > I guess that means I'm no good, > I call it "too ornery to die". It could be genetics. It could be that I take walks and drink lots of water and eat really well. But whatever it is, it aint gonna last, because sooner or later we all gotta go. Besides, I'm only 64. To me that seems old, but by today's standards I guess it's not. I appreciate the ornery compliment (I'll take it as one), but the truth is, aside from the water and the walks and the good food I am a very lazy person who lies around a lot and works just enough to pay rent and eat. For those who like work I suppose it's not a killer. For those like myself who despise work, it is a killer. I don't think I'm going to last much longer. But I'm not afraid of death, only that there is no such thing and we have no control over what we come back as, whether it's a human being again or a lobster or a cockroach or a slug or just electricity looking to find it's way into a wire the way our life force tries to find some kind of body to climb into. We are food. But we are always hungry. The whole world revolves around food. That and breathing. TJ |
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On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 03:40:40 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe
> wrote: > On Oct 28, 7:18*pm, sf > wrote: > > > > > wrote: > > > I guess that means I'm no good, > > > > I call it "too ornery to die". > > > It could be genetics. It could be that I take walks and drink > lots of water and eat really well. But whatever it is, it aint gonna > last, because sooner or later we all gotta go. When I said that, I was thinking of a couple of people I know in RL. -- All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt. |
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On 10/28/2011 10:42 AM, Pete C. wrote:
> > Melba's Jammin' wrote: >> >> Lynn Gifford has passed. >> Blake Murphy has passed. >> Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. She was 46. Breast cancer. >> >> Sonofabitch! >> >> Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember >> Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." (Katrine Someone was >> the other.) I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian >> to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. Helle lived >> in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. >> Although we never met f2f, I am confident we will meet in another realm >> someday. She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for >> others, and great courage. She set a high bar for good character and I >> will miss her. She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva >> and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 >> now), parents, and brother. >> -- >> Barb, >> http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 > > Definitely a high mortality rate in this group. Though it is very sad when the regular posters here pass away, there *are* many here who count themselves lucky to be survivors. -- Janet Wilder Posting from the Netbaby |
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On Oct 28, 11:12*am, The Cook > wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:42:47 -0500, "Pete C." > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Melba's Jammin' wrote: > > >> Lynn Gifford has passed. > >> Blake Murphy has passed. > >> Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. *She was 46. *Breast cancer. > > >> Sonofabitch! > > >> Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember > >> Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." *(Katrine Someone was > >> the other.) *I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian > >> to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. *Helle lived > >> in Tromsų, Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. > >> Although we never met f2f, *I am confident we will meet in another realm > >> someday. * She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for > >> others, and great courage. *She set a high bar for good character and I > >> will miss her. *She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva > >> and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 > >> now), parents, and brother. > >> -- > >> Barb, > >>http://web.me.com/barbschallerSeptember 5, 2011 > > >Definitely a high mortality rate in this group. > > Maybe because we tend to know who posts here and there is almost > always someone who is in touch with another one (the jerks excepted) ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > in person or in email. *We tend to notice when some is no longer here. > In many other newsgroups I imagine that when people aren't posting it > is assumed they just quit if, anyone notices. Which reminds me: whatever happened to Greg Morrow? |
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Janet Wilder wrote:
> > Though it is very sad when the regular posters here pass away, there > *are* many here who count themselves lucky to be survivors. Either that, or somebody's going around killing them. |
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On 29/10/2011 9:40 PM, Tommy Joe wrote:
> On Oct 28, 7:18 pm, > wrote: > > >> > wrote: >>> I guess that means I'm no good, > > >> I call it "too ornery to die". > > > It could be genetics. It could be that I take walks and drink > lots of water and eat really well. But whatever it is, it aint gonna > last, because sooner or later we all gotta go. Besides, I'm only 64. > To me that seems old, but by today's standards I guess it's not. I I got about 10 years up on you and I STILL think I'm not old! Depends on one's perspective I guess. General health too, of course. > appreciate the ornery compliment (I'll take it as one), but the truth > is, aside from the water and the walks and the good food I am a very > lazy person who lies around a lot and works just enough to pay rent > and eat. For those who like work I suppose it's not a killer. For > those like myself who despise work, it is a killer. I don't think I'm > going to last much longer. But I'm not afraid of death, only that > there is no such thing and we have no control over what we come back > as, whether it's a human being again or a lobster or a cockroach or a > slug or just electricity looking to find it's way into a wire the way > our life force tries to find some kind of body to climb into. We are > food. But we are always hungry. The whole world revolves around > food. That and breathing. I'd say it revolves around reproduction. Without that facet of life, all the rest become moot after a generation or so. As the old saying goes, "If your parents didn't have any children, then there's a high probability you won't have any either". > > TJ > -- Krypsis |
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On Oct 28, 11:16*am, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote: > Lynn Gifford has passed. > Blake Murphy has passed. > Helle Gaare Paulsen passed yesterday. *She was 46. *Breast cancer. * > > Sonofabitch! > > Longtime rfc posters will have to go back about 12 years to remember > Helle, one of our two "Scandinavian authorities." *(Katrine Someone was > the other.) *I always loved when they posted to each other in Norwegian > to clarify with each other the finer points of a response. *Helle lived > in Troms , Norway (north or the Arctic Circle) and was a total delight. * > Although we never met f2f, *I am confident we will meet in another realm > someday. * She leaves a legacy of joy, dignity, integrity, warmth for > others, and great courage. *She set a high bar for good character and I > will miss her. *She was preceded in death by her infant daughter Sunniva > and is survived by her daughter Elise (I'm guessing Elise is about 17-19 > now), parents, and brother. > -- > Barb,http://web.me.com/barbschallerSeptember 5, 2011 I also remember her - missed her after she lost her daughter. I felt so bad for her. |
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On Oct 29, 2:03*pm, sf > wrote:
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 03:40:40 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe > I call it "too ornery to die". > *It could be genetics. *It could be that I take walks and drink > > lots of water and eat really well. *But whatever it is, it aint gonna > > last, because sooner or later we all gotta go. > When I said that, I was thinking of a couple of people I know in RL. God, I hate saying this, but what is RL? I could guess but I'm not in the mood for games right now. Swear to God I don't know what RL stands for. Rehab Land? What? TJ |
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On Oct 29, 4:55*pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> Which reminds me: whatever happened to Greg Morrow? Is his middle name "To"........" Greg To Morrow. Yeah, I heard he died, yesterday. Hey you, Janet Wilder, like your attitude there about feeling lucky to be alive. I feel lucky in many ways even though I'm a complainer on the outside. I count my blessings. But it's true, we all gotta go one day. TJ |
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On Oct 29, 5:42*pm, Krypsis > wrote:
> I got about 10 years up on you and I STILL think I'm not old! Depends on > one's perspective I guess. General health too, of course. > I'd say it revolves around reproduction. Without that facet of life, all > the rest become moot after a generation or so. > > As the old saying goes, "If your parents didn't have any children, then > there's a high probability you won't have any either". When I was younger I'd hear about guys like George Burns making it to 100 and I'd think big deal, what's a hundred years. But now that I'm older I have trouble seeing myself making it to even your age. I look healthier than I am. But I walk maybe 4 times a week, 3 to 5 miles at a fast pace - nothing for the upper body in years - and eat good and drink plenty of water. Of course it revolves around reproduction. I've done some thinking on that too. Ever notice how sex makes people feel good (as long as it's not forced upon them)......? It's like the creator saddled us with that to keep us procreating. If having sexual intercourse were brutally painful, I wonder then how many people would rush out to have babies. I never had a kid. I did the world and myself a favor. I can't stand the high-pitched pre-school screamers. People say, "Hey, you were a kid once yourself." So what? - I'm not one now. Thanks for your post, every comment made sense of some kind. TJ |
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Sycophant wrote:
> Blake Murphy died? When? > I missed that one! > Granted, I had him killfiled, but still... Just had to shit on his memory, huh, bitch? Bob |
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On Oct 30, 7:00*am, "Bob Terwilliger" >
wrote: > Sycophant wrote: > > Blake Murphy died? *When? > > I *missed that one! > > Granted, I had him killfiled, but still... > > Just had to shit on his memory, huh, bitch? Hey, where's Stu. Is he dead too? > > Bob --Bryan |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:29:45 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe
> wrote: > > I never had a kid. I did the world and myself a favor. I can't >stand the high-pitched pre-school screamers. People say, "Hey, you >were a kid once yourself." So what? - I'm not one now. Thanks for >your post, every comment made sense of some kind. > >TJ That is a good attitude. Unlike the irrisponsible kids that want to have sex with no restriction from condoms and make unwanted babies and complain they have to support them for 18 years. |
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![]() "Mark Thorson" > ha scritto nel messaggio ... > Janet Wilder wrote: >> >> Though it is very sad when the regular posters here pass away, there >> *are* many here who count themselves lucky to be survivors. > > Either that, or somebody's going around killing them. They're getting the wrong ones then. |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:20:06 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe
> wrote: > > God, I hate saying this, but what is RL? Don't feel bad. Those things throw me all the time too... Real Life. -- All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt. |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:41:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowskio >
wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:29:45 -0700 (PDT), Tommy Joe > > wrote: > > > > > > > I never had a kid. I did the world and myself a favor. I can't > >stand the high-pitched pre-school screamers. People say, "Hey, you > >were a kid once yourself." So what? - I'm not one now. Thanks for > >your post, every comment made sense of some kind. > > > >TJ > > That is a good attitude. Unlike the irrisponsible kids that want to > have sex with no restriction from condoms and make unwanted babies and > complain they have to support them for 18 years. Nobody is responsible and they don't support the children. The boys don't complain, because they are chalking up "baby mamas" as a status symbol. Baby mamas don't complain either, because they just hand the babies over to their own mothers to care for and continue partying. -- All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt. |
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Giusi wrote:
> "Mark Thorson" > ha scritto nel messaggio > ... >> Janet Wilder wrote: >>> Though it is very sad when the regular posters here pass away, there >>> *are* many here who count themselves lucky to be survivors. >> Either that, or somebody's going around killing them. > > They're getting the wrong ones then. > LOL, ohmygod. Thanks for that giggle! ![]() Goomba |
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In article
>, Tommy Joe > wrote: > On Oct 29, 2:03*pm, sf > wrote: > > When I said that, I was thinking of a couple of people I know in RL. > > > God, I hate saying this, but what is RL? Real Life. (Good "Internet shorthand"). -- Barb, http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 |
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On Oct 30, 7:17*am, Omelet > wrote:
> "Real Life". As opposed to virtual life. Thanks. Now I am forced to wonder if I would have guessed correctly what RL stands for if I had been offered a chance by someone with a lot of money to make a million bucks if I could guess correctly within 24 hours. I'm sure I would have worked it into the mix. But you shortened the time, and for that I am appreciative - although the 24 hour rich-guy challenge would have been nice too. TJ |
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On Oct 30, 9:27*am, Janet > wrote:
> * *Don't worry; you're never likely to get one. > > * *Janet I don't want one. Especially with people like you in it. Just kidding. Oh believe me, I've too much real life and it's worn me out completely. , TJ |
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On Oct 30, 10:41*am, Ed Pawlowskio > wrote:
> That is a good attitude. *Unlike the irrisponsible *kids that want to > have sex with no restriction from condoms and make unwanted babies and > complain they have to support them for 18 years. * I agree. But there is a side of me that doesn't. That's because I want at all times to be fair minded. I have to think I didn't not have kids to do the world a favor, I did it because I didn't want a bunch of kids around bogging me down and I also can't stand the noise, and that was even when I was a young guy. It's that high-pitched wail, can't take it. Maybe I was afraid if I had kids I'd kill them. Yeah, I don't like people having a bunch of kids either, but we are animals and we are all saddled from birth with the annoying will to live and procreate. Maybe in some ways Im more selfish than the thoughtless slugs who churn out the kids. Maybe. I don't know. But I agree with you. I go even further, and it sometimes riles people, but not on purpose. I say that all parents are complainers. They all pull the same routine, crying about how they had to raise their kids and now they have to babysit the grand-children, when in reality that's what they wanted the whole time. Become a parent, get the parent merit badge, then move on to babysitting the grandchildren and bitching about it. TJ |
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On Oct 30, 10:17*pm, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote: > Real Life. *(Good "Internet shorthand"). Thanks to you and sf for responding on that one, but I wasn't like losing any sleep over it or anything. BTA TJ |
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In article
>, Tommy Joe > wrote: > On Oct 30, 10:17*pm, Melba's Jammin' > > wrote: > > > Real Life. *(Good "Internet shorthand"). > > > > Thanks to you and sf for responding on that one, but I wasn't like > losing any sleep over it or anything. BTA > > TJ I didn't figure you were losing sleep. You asked a question. I answered it. (And that was *supposed* to say "Google "Internet shorthand." I wonder how that turned into 'good.' <shrug>) -- Barb, http://web.me.com/barbschaller September 5, 2011 |
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On Oct 31, 10:32*pm, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote: > > * *Thanks to you and sf for responding on that one, but I wasn't like > > losing any sleep over it or anything. *BTA > I didn't figure you were losing sleep. *You asked a question. *I > answered it. *(And that was *supposed* to say "Google "Internet > shorthand." *I wonder how that turned into 'good.' *<shrug>) Dammit, it ddn't work. I was hoping you'd ask what BTA means. It means But Thanks Anyway. I love making up abbreviations and using them as frequently as possible. The only way to get your ABS down is to use them every day. So, let's concentrate on our AB work and see if we can't shorten things up around here. TJ |
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