Dan Abel > wrote in
:

> Everything was killed, and nothing could possibly grow there.
> Various biologists predicted that those areas would stay
> sterile for a very long time. It didn't take nearly as long
> as thought for birds to bring in spores and seeds to start
> things growing.

Active volcanoes exist in places where there is agriculture. And
this has been going on for millions of years really. Volcanic
eruptions are part of local ecosystems, even though they appear
devastating to the human eye.

The problem is that right now, most of the world is only 10% or
less (a lot of less) arable land. Desertification was identified
as a critical issue decades before global warming was identified as
the culprit. No one has mentioned any instance of arablification,
to coin a word, whereby arable land spontaneously arises from
muskeg and rocks. Why? Because that does NOT happen.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

Boron Elgar > wrote in
:

>>Here's an argument anyone can understand. Bacteria and worms
>>are necessary to agriculture. But bacteria and worms do not
>>migrate, so how is there going to be arable land on top of
>>rock and moss if the natural manufacturers do not make the
>>trip northward?
>>
>>Well, the answer is simple. There isn't going to be any.
>
> Worms migrate. Some are quite invasive and they do, indeed,
> spread. Some of the introduction is natural, some accidentally
> assisted, but those guys get around.

But they get around in soil. For them to reach the barrenlands of
northern Canada to start the process of breaking down the material
to make useable soil, they would have to cross vast distances in
which they would find no sustenance. If they even knew which way
to go.

Perhaps in a million years or so.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:32:51 -0600, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote in
:
>
>>>Here's an argument anyone can understand. Bacteria and worms
>>>are necessary to agriculture. But bacteria and worms do not
>>>migrate, so how is there going to be arable land on top of
>>>rock and moss if the natural manufacturers do not make the
>>>trip northward?
>>>
>>>Well, the answer is simple. There isn't going to be any.
>>
>> Worms migrate. Some are quite invasive and they do, indeed,
>> spread. Some of the introduction is natural, some accidentally
>> assisted, but those guys get around.
>
>But they get around in soil. For them to reach the barrenlands of
>northern Canada to start the process of breaking down the material
>to make useable soil, they would have to cross vast distances in
>which they would find no sustenance. If they even knew which way
>to go.
>
>Perhaps in a million years or so.

Unless we and all our commerce and movement cease, it'll take much
less time. And even on their own, some manage 10 meters a year. Your
million years is way, way off.

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/...imal-worm.html

Boron

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:18:04 -0600, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

>Dave Smith > wrote in news:6EE_q.8982
:
>
>>> The Inuit. Left the elderly to freeze on ice floes (well, not
>>> anymore...soon NO ice floes).
>>
>> Actually, the story goes that the old wandered off on their own.
>
>Strictly speaking yes, but they only did it because resources were
>sparse and society expected them to do it. Had they refused they
>would have been pushed out.

Still, even in those days 19th century and earlier, senilicide was a
rare practice, and generally only occurred during times of famine.
Female infanticide may have been more common, though.

Boron

Boron Elgar > wrote in
:

> Unless we and all our commerce and movement cease, it'll take
> much less time. And even on their own, some manage 10 meters
> a year. Your million years is way, way off.

10 metres a year *in soil*. There is no soil. My estimate is
conservative.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

Boron Elgar > wrote in
:

>>Strictly speaking yes, but they only did it because resources
>>were sparse and society expected them to do it. Had they
>>refused they would have been pushed out.
>
> Still, even in those days 19th century and earlier, senilicide
> was a rare practice, and generally only occurred during times
> of famine. Female infanticide may have been more common,
> though.

The Inuit were still practicing it in the early part of the last
century. We're not talking developed industrial society here,
strictly hunter/gatherer (even with HBC guns).

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

In article >,
says...
>
> Boron Elgar > wrote in
> :
>
> >>Here's an argument anyone can understand. Bacteria and worms
> >>are necessary to agriculture. But bacteria and worms do not
> >>migrate, so how is there going to be arable land on top of
> >>rock and moss if the natural manufacturers do not make the
> >>trip northward?
> >>
> >>Well, the answer is simple. There isn't going to be any.
> >
> > Worms migrate. Some are quite invasive and they do, indeed,
> > spread. Some of the introduction is natural, some accidentally
> > assisted, but those guys get around.
>
> But they get around in soil. For them to reach the barrenlands of
> northern Canada to start the process of breaking down the material
> to make useable soil, they would have to cross vast distances in
> which they would find no sustenance.

Worms bacteria and seeds all travel the same way, in animals and birds.
Nematode eggs and bacteria ingested by birds can survive in their gut;
birds fly long distances, excrete and deliver eggs and bacteria to new
location.


Janet.

Janet > wrote in
:

>> But they get around in soil. For them to reach the
>> barrenlands of northern Canada to start the process of
>> breaking down the material to make useable soil, they would
>> have to cross vast distances in which they would find no
>> sustenance.
>
> Worms bacteria and seeds all travel the same way, in animals
> and birds. Nematode eggs and bacteria ingested by birds can
> survive in their gut; birds fly long distances, excrete and
> deliver eggs and bacteria to new location.

Which would do no good if that were even the case...assuming the
birds fly in the right direction. On the tundra, not for millenia
anyway, probably MUCH longer, by which time most, if not all life
will be extinguished.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

On 15/02/2012 5:37 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
>
> We have a friend with two kids adopted from China, one boy and one girl.
> The girl had some problems at first, but got over them. She had been
> kept by her mother until the age of five months. The boy had serious
> problems, and is only now out of an institution. His mother dropped him
> off at the orphanage the day he was born, when she discovered that he
> had a cleft palette.
>

I was at my brother's one day when his neighbours came by. The
neighbours have two girls adopted from China. We were talking about the
vanishing manufacturing jobs. She said that everything is made in China
these days ...."including our kids".

Boron Elgar > wrote in
:

> Not quite the same thing as in China today. In the time of
> which I was speaking, the Inuit had no way of determining
> gender before birth.
>
> It is pretty easy to do nowadays pretty early in gestation.

But the Inuit have sometimes put new born babies to death in times
of dire need. In *The Netsilik Eskimo*, Asen Balikci mentions one
case where the mother exposed the newborn child to the cold then
after it was dead, she ate the flesh as there was no other food.

http://www.amazon.ca/Netsilik-Eskimo.../dp/0881334359

In the 19th century, a famine in China was so severe, poor people
were selling their children in the marketplace as food.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

Boron Elgar > wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:18:04 -0600, Michel Boucher

>>Dave Smith > wrote in news:6EE_q.8982
:
>>
>>>> The Inuit. Left the elderly to freeze on ice floes (well, not
>>>> anymore...soon NO ice floes).
>>>
>>> Actually, the story goes that the old wandered off on their own.
>>
>>Strictly speaking yes, but they only did it because resources were
>>sparse and society expected them to do it. Had they refused they
>>would have been pushed out.

>Still, even in those days 19th century and earlier, senilicide was a
>rare practice, and generally only occurred during times of famine.
>Female infanticide may have been more common, though.

It's instinctive for those gravely ill to wander off away from
other members of their species. This is an adaptation that
helps prevent their possibly communicable disease condition
from spreading.

Steve

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 04:27:33 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:18:04 -0600, Michel Boucher
>
>>>Dave Smith > wrote in news:6EE_q.8982
:
>>>
>>>>> The Inuit. Left the elderly to freeze on ice floes (well, not
>>>>> anymore...soon NO ice floes).
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the story goes that the old wandered off on their own.
>>>
>>>Strictly speaking yes, but they only did it because resources were
>>>sparse and society expected them to do it. Had they refused they
>>>would have been pushed out.
>
>>Still, even in those days 19th century and earlier, senilicide was a
>>rare practice, and generally only occurred during times of famine.
>>Female infanticide may have been more common, though.
>
>It's instinctive for those gravely ill to wander off away from
>other members of their species. This is an adaptation that
>helps prevent their possibly communicable disease condition
>from spreading.
>
>Steve

I would think that assuming a species hangs around together, a group
would avoid or leave behind hose who are wounded or infirm, as they
either hinder or add nothing to food gathering and additionally, are
more likely to attract predators....guarding the young, as broad
exception to this..

It varies so much that it is hard to generalize.

Those Tasmanian Devils don't seem to have avoided communicable
contact.

Boron

Boron Elgar > wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 04:27:33 +0000 (UTC),

>>It's instinctive for those gravely ill to wander off away from
>>other members of their species. This is an adaptation that
>>helps prevent their possibly communicable disease condition
>>from spreading.

>I would think that assuming a species hangs around together, a group
>would avoid or leave behind hose who are wounded or infirm, as they
>either hinder or add nothing to food gathering and additionally, are
>more likely to attract predators....

Good point. That's another reason for the same or similar adaptation.

However I will hedge and say these evolutinary biology predictions
can be quite devilish to actually prove, even if the subject
behavior is observed. Like maybe impossible.


Steve