By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
running. The prompt is “Tell us why it’s ethical to eat meat. I'm
posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. I didn't write it,
Mark Sisson did. He's correct.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is eating meat ethical?

I find it odd that in their prompt for the essay, the NY Times forbids
entrants from mentioning conscientious carnivory, local versus
organic, grass-fed versus factory-raised, or sustainable versus
unsustainable. In other words, they expect us to simply explain “why
it’s ethical to eat meat” without allowing for any of the
considerations or external factors that might affect the “ethics” of
meat-eating.

How do I proceed, absent the ability to actually discuss the nuances?
It’s a tough question, but I’ll try.

“Ethical” implies that we have a choice. Both dietary choices –
omnivory and herbivory – cause animals to die. We have to eat
something, and whichever choice we make, animals will die. There’s no
getting around that. If we’re going to ask whether or not meat-eating
is ethical because it causes animals to die, we also have to ask
whether or not other common consumptive practices that also cause
animals to die are ethical:

Is living in an apartment or a house built on the former homes of a
dozen different species, several ant colonies, and the site of an
indigenous people’s encampment from a hundred years ago ethical?

Is wearing clothing made from conventionally grown cotton that
required the use of chemical fertilizers whose runoff pollutes rivers,
lakes, and oceans, thus hurting marine life ethical?

Is eating pseudo-burgers made of soybeans that hail from monocrop
farms whose owners razed the land on which they grow, killing families
of groundhogs and field mice and trillions upon trillions of essential
microbes that compose the topsoil ethical?

Animals all die as a result of these practices. Anyone who makes it
past their first year has blood on their hands. At least the meat-
eater must face the unavoidable fact that he consumes dead animals
directly. At least he deals with death head-on, shrink-wrapped though
it may be. For once the plastic and styrofoam are removed, there it
is, staring him in the face: a bloody piece of dead animal flesh that
he is then going to put into his mouth, chew, swallow, and digest.

Does that make him unethical? Only if anyone who eats anything whose
production resulted in the death of animals is also unethical. One
could even argue that since the meat-eater at least acknowledges the
fact that an animal died for his meal, he’s the more honorable of the
two.

And indeed everyone has blood on their hands as a direct or indirect
result of their choices, consumption habits, and dietary practices.
Everyone steps on someone else’s toes or hooves or talons or cute
little paws or flippers or probosci or roots for “selfish” reasons –
even vegans. If meat-eaters are unethical by virtue of their meat-
eating, so too is the vegetarian whose grain-based meals came from
farmers whose tractors crush small mammals and whose cropland disrupts
entire ecosystems. I don’t think either person’s actions are
unethical, but I fail to see how someone could think the former was
unethical without also taking issue with the latter. If you’re going
to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you also have to
indict other dietary practices that also kill animals, like grain –
even if those deaths are “unavoidable” or “accidental.” Sure, the
farmer may not gleefully set out to murder field mice with his tractor
(although the rodenticide used in grain elevators might raise a few
eyebrows), but does it matter if the end result – a bunch of dead
animals – is the same?

I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest..
If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7

On 2012-04-04, ImStillMags > wrote:
> By now, you?ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
> running. The prompt is ?Tell us why it?s ethical to eat meat. I'm
> posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. I didn't write it,
> Mark Sisson did. He's correct.

Wait! Lemme fix a ham sandwich before reading.

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On Apr 4, 12:45*pm, notbob > wrote:
>
> Wait! *Lemme fix a ham sandwich before reading. *



LOL! exactly.

On Apr 4, 3:12*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
> By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
> running. The prompt is “Tell us why it’s ethical to eat meat. * * *I'm
> posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. *I didn't write it,
> Mark Sisson did. *He's correct.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
>
> Is eating meat ethical?
>
> I find it odd that in their prompt for the essay, the NY Times forbids
> entrants from mentioning conscientious carnivory, local versus
> organic, grass-fed versus factory-raised, or sustainable versus
> unsustainable. In other words, they expect us to simply explain “why
> it’s ethical to eat meat” without allowing for any of the
> considerations or external factors that might affect the “ethics” of
> meat-eating.
>
> How do I proceed, absent the ability to actually discuss the nuances?
> It’s a tough question, but I’ll try.
>
> “Ethical” implies that we have a choice. Both dietary choices –
> omnivory and herbivory – cause animals to die. We have to eat
> something, and whichever choice we make, animals will die. There’s no
> getting around that. If we’re going to ask whether or not meat-eating
> is ethical because it causes animals to die, we also have to ask
> whether or not other common consumptive practices that also cause
> animals to die are ethical:
>
> Is living in an apartment or a house built on the former homes of a
> dozen different species, several ant colonies, and the site of an
> indigenous people’s encampment from a hundred years ago ethical?
>
> Is wearing clothing made from conventionally grown cotton that
> required the use of chemical fertilizers whose runoff pollutes rivers,
> lakes, and oceans, thus hurting marine life ethical?
>
> Is eating pseudo-burgers made of soybeans that hail from monocrop
> farms whose owners razed the land on which they grow, killing families
> of groundhogs and field mice and trillions upon trillions of essential
> microbes that compose the topsoil ethical?
>
> Animals all die as a result of these practices. Anyone who makes it
> past their first year has blood on their hands. At least the meat-
> eater must face the unavoidable fact that he consumes dead animals
> directly. At least he deals with death head-on, shrink-wrapped though
> it may be. For once the plastic and styrofoam are removed, there it
> is, staring him in the face: a bloody piece of dead animal flesh that
> he is then going to put into his mouth, chew, swallow, and digest.
>
> Does that make him unethical? Only if anyone who eats anything whose
> production resulted in the death of animals is also unethical. One
> could even argue that since the meat-eater at least acknowledges the
> fact that an animal died for his meal, he’s the more honorable of the
> two.
>
> And indeed everyone has blood on their hands as a direct or indirect
> result of their choices, consumption habits, and dietary practices.
> Everyone steps on someone else’s toes or hooves or talons or cute
> little paws or flippers or probosci or roots for “selfish” reasons –
> even vegans. If meat-eaters are unethical by virtue of their meat-
> eating, so too is the vegetarian whose grain-based meals came from
> farmers whose tractors crush small mammals and whose cropland disrupts
> entire ecosystems. I don’t think either person’s actions are
> unethical, but I fail to see how someone could think the former was
> unethical without also taking issue with the latter. *If you’re going
> to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you also have to
> indict other dietary practices that also kill animals, like grain –
> even if those deaths are “unavoidable” or “accidental.” Sure, the
> farmer may not gleefully set out to murder field mice with his tractor
> (although the rodenticide used in grain elevators might raise a few
> eyebrows), but does it matter if the end result – a bunch of dead
> animals – is the same?
>
> I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest.
> If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
> must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.
>
> http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7

I'll tell you why eating meat is ethical. Because it tastes good.

Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
slaughtering baby seals.
Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
with them.

On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> slaughtering baby seals.
> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> with them.

My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
take care of that pesky killin' question.

I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
seal farms. :-)

On Apr 4, 5:48*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>
> > Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> > ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> > slaughtering baby seals.
> > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> > with them.
>
> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
> i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
> animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
> non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
> take care of that pesky killin' question.
>
> I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
> Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
> seal farms. :-)

'Zero Kelvin' was a good film. The background being a group of
Swedish walrus hunters; then it's man against nature, and man against
man.

On 2012-04-04, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
>> ethical?

If it's the only pelt I can use to stay warm, damn straight!

> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
> i.e., their bodies.

But, it's OK to pollute the entire World's ecosystem with toxic wastes
from synthetic fabric, apparel, shoes, etc, and kill wildlife wholesale?

> I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new non-conscious meat
> grown in meat-growing tanks.

Maybe the Bene Tleilax with lease you some of their Axlotl tanks.

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On 4/4/2012 11:59 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> On Apr 4, 5:48 pm, > wrote:
>> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>>
>>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
>>> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
>>> slaughtering baby seals.
>>> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
>>> with them.
>>
>> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
>> i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
>> animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
>> non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
>> take care of that pesky killin' question.
>>
>> I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
>> Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
>> seal farms. :-)
>
> 'Zero Kelvin' was a good film. The background being a group of
> Swedish walrus hunters; then it's man against nature, and man against
> man.

Well OK then, I'll try to watch it in the next couple of days. Thanks!

On 4/4/2012 11:59 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-04-04, > wrote:
>> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
>>> ethical?
>
> If it's the only pelt I can use to stay warm, damn straight!
>
>> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
>> i.e., their bodies.
>
> But, it's OK to pollute the entire World's ecosystem with toxic wastes
> from synthetic fabric, apparel, shoes, etc, and kill wildlife wholesale?

I don't get the connection. Just because I think something is not
ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
pet peeves nor will I make any now.

>
>> I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new non-conscious meat
>> grown in meat-growing tanks.
>
> Maybe the Bene Tleilax with lease you some of their Axlotl tanks.

Hopefully they're able to grow some porterhouse in the tanks.

>
> nb
>

On 2012-04-04, dsi1 > wrote:

> ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
> pet peeves nor will I make any now.

Good. I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.

Baby harp seal walks into a bar. The bartender say, "What'll ya'
have?" The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On 4/4/2012 12:22 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-04-04, > wrote:
>
>> ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
>> pet peeves nor will I make any now.
>
> Good. I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.

Precisely!

>
> Baby harp seal walks into a bar. The bartender say, "What'll ya'
> have?" The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."

The bartender says "hey, we don't serve particles of your kind here!" A
tachyon walks into a bar. :-)

>
> nb
>

On 2012-04-04, dsi1 > wrote:

> The bartender says "hey, we don't serve particles of your kind here!" A
> tachyon walks into a bar. :-)

......to which the bartender mutters, "Could't prove it by me."


--
vi --the heart of evil!

On Apr 4, 6:22*pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2012-04-04, dsi1 > wrote:
>
> > ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
> > pet peeves nor will I make any now.
>
> Good. *I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.
>
> Baby harp seal walks into a bar. *The bartender say, "What'll ya'
> have?" *The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."
>
> nb
>
> --
> vi --the heart of evil!

Pretty good. Now in all seriousness, sealers in Canada are not
allowed to 'harvest' baby seals.

On Apr 4, 2:20*pm, meh > wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags > wrote:
> >By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
> >running.
>
> NO, I haven't, AND I don't WANT to know about it.
>
> NOT relevant to this group.

Of course it's relevant to this group. There are all types of
lifestyle followers here, vegans, vegetarians and omnivores.

On Apr 4, 2:30*pm, A Moose in Love > wrote:
> Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> slaughtering baby seals.
> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> with them.

Are you going to eat the seal?

On Apr 4, 7:47*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 2:30*pm, A Moose in Love > wrote:
>
> > Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> > ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> > slaughtering baby seals.
> > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> > with them.
>
> Are you going to eat the seal?

The Inuit eat seal meat. I understand that it's a horrible meat to
eat if you are used to western tastes.

On 04/04/2012 8:50 PM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> On Apr 4, 7:47 pm, > wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 2:30 pm, A Moose in > wrote:
>>
>>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
>>> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
>>> slaughtering baby seals.
>>> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
>>> with them.
>>
>> Are you going to eat the seal?
>
> The Inuit eat seal meat. I understand that it's a horrible meat to
> eat if you are used to western tastes.

If seal pups looked like lobsters people would have no problem dropping
them live into a pot of boiling water.

On 4 Apr 2012 21:59:41 GMT, notbob > wrote:

> > I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new non-conscious meat
> > grown in meat-growing tanks.
> Maybe the Bene Tleilax with lease you some of their Axlotl tanks.
Only the ones that revolt.

--
Ann's Little Brother Bob

On Apr 4, 3:12*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:


> Is eating meat unethical?


Being alive is unethical.

TJ

On Wednesday, April 4, 2012 2:57:08 PM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 04/04/2012 8:50 PM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> > On Apr 4, 7:47 pm, > wrote:
> >> On Apr 4, 2:30 pm, A Moose in Love
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> >>> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> >>> slaughtering baby seals.
> >>> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> >>> with them.
> >>
> >> Are you going to eat the seal?
> >
> > The Inuit eat seal meat. I understand that it's a horrible meat to
> > eat if you are used to western tastes.
>
> If seal pups looked like lobsters people would have no problem dropping
> them live into a pot of boiling water.



On Wednesday, April 4, 2012 2:57:08 PM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 04/04/2012 8:50 PM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> > On Apr 4, 7:47 pm, > wrote:
> >> On Apr 4, 2:30 pm, A Moose in Love
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
> >>> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
> >>> slaughtering baby seals.
> >>> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
> >>> with them.
> >>
> >> Are you going to eat the seal?
> >
> > The Inuit eat seal meat. I understand that it's a horrible meat to
> > eat if you are used to western tastes.
>
> If seal pups looked like lobsters people would have no problem dropping
> them live into a pot of boiling water.

The problem with lobsters is that they don't have those big, sad, expressive, eyes. OTOH, it's odd that people would want to eat something that looks like a giant bug.

On Apr 5, 12:20*am, Tommy Joe > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 3:12*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
>
> > *Is eating meat unethical?
>
> * *Being alive is unethical.
>
> TJ

well if you want to take it that far, yes.

The whole point of the opening post is that the majority of people who
think eating meat is unethical say it is because something has to
die. Well, sorry, but if we eat ANYTHING at all, something has to
die.

I'm more concerned about the quality of life of animals raised for
food, their growing conditions, whether they've been fed antibiotics,
were they crowded into pens standing knee deep in their own feces,
packed into cages with no room to move, etc.

I'm going to continue to eat animal proteins. But I want the animals
I consume to have been raised for that purpose with care, honor and
appreciation for their function, and processed in the most humane way
possible.

ImStillMags wrote:
> On Apr 5, 12:20?am, Tommy Joe > wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 3:12?pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
>>
>> > ?Is eating meat unethical?
>>
>> ? ?Being alive is unethical.
>>
>> TJ
>
> well if you want to take it that far, yes.
>
> The whole point of the opening post is that the majority of people who
> think eating meat is unethical say it is because something has to
> die. Well, sorry, but if we eat ANYTHING at all, something has to
> die.
>
> I'm more concerned about the quality of life of animals raised for
> food, their growing conditions, whether they've been fed antibiotics,
> were they crowded into pens standing knee deep in their own feces,
> packed into cages with no room to move, etc.
>
> I'm going to continue to eat animal proteins. But I want the animals
> I consume to have been raised for that purpose with care, honor and
> appreciation for their function, and processed in the most humane way
> possible.

"but I don't want to die!" --Wilbur the pig

On Apr 5, 11:54*am, tert in seattle > wrote:


> "but I don't want to die!" *--Wilbur the pig-


Ow, ow, ow....you are ripping me out of my roots !!!!! - Carol the
carrot

On Apr 5, 4:31*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 11:54*am, tert in seattle > wrote:
>
> > "but I don't want to die!" *--Wilbur the pig-
>
> Ow, ow, ow....you are ripping me out of my roots !!!!! * - Carol the
> carrot

Carrots? That reminds me of a good joke. To those that are easily
offended, please read no further. ...
Helen Keller gets a carrot grater for Christmas.
Finally she takes it back to the store and tells the clerk:
I'd like a refund. This book is much too violent.

ImStillMags wrote:
> On Apr 5, 11:54?am, tert in seattle > wrote:
>
>
>> "but I don't want to die!" ?--Wilbur the pig-
>
>
> Ow, ow, ow....you are ripping me out of my roots !!!!! - Carol the
> carrot


a talking carrot?? when pigs fly!

On 2012-04-05, ImStillMags > wrote:

> Ow, ow, ow....you are ripping me out of my roots !!!!! - Carol the
> carrot

OMG! Are you related to Karl the Karrot, one of the great comedic
genius vegetables of all time? I miss him, so. (sniff)

http://www.shorpy.com/node/4005

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On Apr 5, 9:52*am, ImStillMags > wrote:

> I'm going to continue to eat animal proteins. * But I want the animals
> I consume to have been raised for that purpose with care, honor and
> appreciation for their function, and processed in the most humane way
> possible.


I eat dead flesh. Like to try it alive one day, that would be a
kick. No, I understand your post. Going beyond using animals for
food, let's be honest, if they can't be used for some purpose they're
doomed to extinction. And what is wrong with extinction? Not much
when your species is going nowhere anyway. Another thought about food
coming from animals: Have you ever noticed (with a few exceptions),
that a lot of really good tasting food comes from really ugly
creatures? I eat dead flesh regularly but also put away loads of
veggies, more than the typical vegetarian eats probably. But if I had
to give up meat for any reason, I know I could do it. Sometimes I
practice up for it, going maybe 5 or 6 days eating foods without
meat. In the same way, I have been practicing for the day I might go
blind, by wearing a blindfold for ten minute periods through the day,
even as I'm doing chores around the house - getting a jump on things
in case I ever go blind.

How about the hunters who like to say they never kill anything
they don't eat. Well, a good friend of mine is a vegetarian and he
loves hunting too. Kills about 30 rabbits a month. Uses them to
fertilize his vegetable garden.

That was a joke,
TJ

On Apr 5, 5:51*pm, tert in seattle > wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote:
> > On Apr 5, 11:54?am, tert in seattle > wrote:
>
> >> "but I don't want to die!" ?--Wilbur the pig-
>
> > Ow, ow, ow....you are ripping me out of my roots !!!!! * - Carol the
> > carrot
>
> a talking carrot?? *when pigs fly!

Hey, it happened on Lost in Space.