I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.

How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
eggs.

What's a good method for kneading?

"Cheryl" <> wrote > I've never mastered the art of bread making but have
been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I used
> a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it more
> than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the loaves.
> I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or eggs.
>
> What's a good method for kneading?
Just maybe my personal opinion but no. French bread isn't supposed to be
light; it has some 'tooth' or chewy sort of texture. Just right for
creating a po'boy or that sort of sandwich. If mine happen to rise so that
they have some fluffy insides, I pinch them out and save them for the
bluejays. Polly

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
.com...
> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I used
> a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it more
> than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the loaves.
> I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or eggs.
>
> What's a good method for kneading?

Push it forward, fold in half, repeat again and again.

On Apr 10, 9:15*pm, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
>
> .com...
>
> > I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> > lately since getting my new oven. *I made some crusty french bread the
> > other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> > freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> > out really good but not light. *Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> > Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. *I used
> > a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> > How exactly do you knead bread? *My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> > picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it more
> > than doubled. *I let it rise another half hour after forming the loaves.
> > I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or eggs.
>
> > What's a good method for kneading?
>
> Push it forward, fold in half, repeat again and again.

I grab about a third and fold it over. Then I grab a third from
another side, rotating as I go.

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
.com...
> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I used
> a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>

French bread is supposd to be quite chewy. It has a very pleasing mouth
bite. Soft is for Wunderbred.

> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it more
> than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the loaves.
> I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or eggs.

Push out with the heals of your hands, fold over itself, rotate 90 degrees
and repeat. When you think your arms are about to fall off simply go rest
and come back in 5-10 minutes. The bread will be easier to work with.
Bread baking is very forgiving. Keep adding flour and stop when the ball is
smooth and velvety and not easily absorbing flour. 10-15 minutes usually.

Also slash the loaves with a new razor blade. Looks nice. Use a squirt
bottle to inject water into the oven while the bread bakes. I usually
squirt some water in at start of baking and one more time during baking.

> What's a good method for kneading?

Well a Kitchenaid Pro 6 does a pretty darned good job.

Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store in the
fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he secret of
bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and complex.

Paul

On 4/11/2012 2:17 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:

> Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store in the
> fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he secret of
> bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and complex.

Thanks for the kneeding answer, and also for this. My mom asked me if
the recipe I used asked for a starter and I had no idea what she was
talking about. I did ask and she told me. And now you have too.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:02:05 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

> On 4/11/2012 2:17 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
> > Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store in the
> > fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he secret of
> > bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and complex.
>
> Thanks for the kneeding answer, and also for this. My mom asked me if
> the recipe I used asked for a starter and I had no idea what she was
> talking about. I did ask and she told me. And now you have too.

I should probably start doing that with pizza dough, except I don't
make it very often (once a month at the most) and you have to "feed"
the started at least weekly, don't you?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:32:38 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:02:05 -0400, Cheryl >
>wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 2:17 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>
>> > Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store in the
>> > fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he secret of
>> > bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and complex.
>>
>> Thanks for the kneeding answer, and also for this. My mom asked me if
>> the recipe I used asked for a starter and I had no idea what she was
>> talking about. I did ask and she told me. And now you have too.
>
>I should probably start doing that with pizza dough, except I don't
>make it very often (once a month at the most) and you have to "feed"
>the started at least weekly, don't you?

I think Paul is talking about the "old dough" method that should be
used in a couple of days. And you are talking about a sourdough
starter, right? I was wondering what Cheryl's mother was calling a
starter.
Janet US

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:32:38 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:02:05 -0400, Cheryl >
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 2:17 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>
>>> > Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store
>>> > in the
>>> > fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he
>>> > secret of
>>> > bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and
>>> > complex.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the kneeding answer, and also for this. My mom asked me if
>>> the recipe I used asked for a starter and I had no idea what she was
>>> talking about. I did ask and she told me. And now you have too.
>>
>>I should probably start doing that with pizza dough, except I don't
>>make it very often (once a month at the most) and you have to "feed"
>>the started at least weekly, don't you?
>
> I think Paul is talking about the "old dough" method that should be
> used in a couple of days. And you are talking about a sourdough
> starter, right? I was wondering what Cheryl's mother was calling a
> starter.


Yes, old dough method. Back in the day people baked bread every day so they
just reserved a chunk of dough for the next day's batch. Works just like
starter. The yeast develops a very nice flavor over time. It's just like
reserving some sponge from a sourdough starter. But it does not keep well
at room temperature. Best kept in the fridge. It can last 5 days in a
refrigerator.

Paul

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:42:44 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> I think Paul is talking about the "old dough" method that should be
> used in a couple of days. And you are talking about a sourdough
> starter, right? I was wondering what Cheryl's mother was calling a
> starter.

To be perfectly honest, I had no idea what I was talking about. That
friendship starter thing has to be fed and sourdough has to be fed so
I thought they all had to be fed.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:02:05 -0400, Cheryl >
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 2:17 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>
>> > Also, if you make bread often, reserve a piece of the dough and store
>> > in the
>> > fridge. That will be your "starter" for he next loaf. This is he
>> > secret of
>> > bakers worldwide. Over time the flavor becomes extraordinary and
>> > complex.
>>
>> Thanks for the kneeding answer, and also for this. My mom asked me if
>> the recipe I used asked for a starter and I had no idea what she was
>> talking about. I did ask and she told me. And now you have too.
>
> I should probably start doing that with pizza dough, except I don't
> make it very often (once a month at the most) and you have to "feed"
> the started at least weekly, don't you?
>

If you do not use the starter every several days to a week, you do need to
feed it. Typcially you use rye flour, ad it to the starter and let if
ferment for a day then back in the fridge. Once per month you shouold empty
the starter into a sanitized container and feed it and let it ferment again
for a day. That keeps the yeast happy. But using it once per week is all
you need to do typically. Get used to making sourdough biscuits for Sunday
breakfast, for example or maybe pancakes.

Paul

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:33:23 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
> eggs.
>
> What's a good method for kneading?

Bet you forgot that YouTube has everything you need to know about
everything you wanted to know. I always forget too.

Epicurious -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWj8oHMPFm0

Peter Reinhart-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJ...eature=related

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

Cheryl > wrote:

>I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>freezer after the second raising but is uncooked.

I'm no expert either- but did the directions say to freeze after the
'second raising'[i.e. 'proofing']? My instincts would have been to
either freeze after the first raising, or after baking.

>The first loaf turned
>out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?

Yes, IMO. You want light, go for a different recipe. [and I've got
nothing for a suggestion as I like heavy.<g>]

> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.

Seams? What recipe did you use?

>
>How exactly do you knead bread?

I use my Kitchenaid & a dough hook-- but if you're doing it by hand;
Worth 10,000 words-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNwbuD1pTtU


>My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>more than doubled.

The doubling is what is important, not the time. Depending on the
flour, the yeast and the temp of the kitchen, the same recipe can take
30 minutes or 2 hours to double. [or triple if that is what the recipe
calls for] Eyeballing the dough is ok-- but I've got a marked
container that I find real educational when I check progress every 15
minutes or so.

>I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>eggs.

>
>What's a good method for kneading?

Depends a little on the dough. The Peter Reinhardt video SF posted
the link to gives a good technique for 'stretch and fold' which is for
very gloppy dough. It wouldn't do anything for a dryer dough like
the one I posted, or the one in 'SF's epicurious video.

I use the dough hook in my Kitchenaid for almost all breads. Different
speeds and times for different doughs, but it works with little/no
effort. Experiment, experiment, experiment.

Often mistakes taste as good as successes, they just don't look as
good. [and I've never found a shortage of volunteers to eat either]

Jim

On 4/11/2012 7:53 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

> I'm no expert either- but did the directions say to freeze after the
> 'second raising'[i.e. 'proofing']? My instincts would have been to
> either freeze after the first raising, or after baking.

It didn't have freezing tips. I thought about some of the "ready to
bake" breads and they don't normally say to let rise before baking, so I
went for after the second rise. I wanted it to be ready to bake, not
already cooked to freeze it.

remember to let it thaw all the way before baking, Lee
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
.com...
> On 4/11/2012 7:53 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
>> I'm no expert either- but did the directions say to freeze after the
>> 'second raising'[i.e. 'proofing']? My instincts would have been to
>> either freeze after the first raising, or after baking.
>
> It didn't have freezing tips. I thought about some of the "ready to bake"
> breads and they don't normally say to let rise before baking, so I went
> for after the second rise. I wanted it to be ready to bake, not already
> cooked to freeze it.

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
.com...
> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked.

If you want to freeze the dough it is better to do so after the first rise,
then when you want to use it, allow to make the second rise before you bake
it.


The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I used
> a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.

Have you tried to use that
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it more
> than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the loaves.
> I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or eggs.

> What's a good method for kneading?
>


--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

On Apr 10, 10:33*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. *I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. *Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> * Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. *I
> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? *My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
> more than doubled. *I let it rise another half hour after forming the
> loaves. *I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
> eggs.
>
> What's a good method for kneading?

I bet you can find a "how-to" knead video at youtube.... I've been
using my mixer dough hook - I love French bread - be sure to get a
mister with water, and mist the loaves in the oven at the beginning of
the baking and maybe once during so the loaves will have a nice
crust. It isn't particularly light - my neighbor and I once ate a
whole loaf right out of the oven with a handy stick of real butter....
in France, we were always served unsalted butter and then sprinkled a
little salt on it. That was really good.

N.

On 4/11/2012 10:33 AM, Nancy2 wrote:

> I bet you can find a "how-to" knead video at youtube.... I've been
> using my mixer dough hook - I love French bread - be sure to get a
> mister with water, and mist the loaves in the oven at the beginning of
> the baking and maybe once during so the loaves will have a nice
> crust. It isn't particularly light - my neighbor and I once ate a
> whole loaf right out of the oven with a handy stick of real butter....
> in France, we were always served unsalted butter and then sprinkled a
> little salt on it. That was really good.

I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
next time.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 4/11/2012 10:33 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
>
>> I bet you can find a "how-to" knead video at youtube.... I've been
>> using my mixer dough hook - I love French bread - be sure to get a
>> mister with water, and mist the loaves in the oven at the beginning of
>> the baking and maybe once during so the loaves will have a nice
>> crust. It isn't particularly light - my neighbor and I once ate a
>> whole loaf right out of the oven with a handy stick of real butter....
>> in France, we were always served unsalted butter and then sprinkled a
>> little salt on it. That was really good.
>
>I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
>to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
>by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
>next time.

There are bread recipes in your KitchenAid recipe book that came with
the machine. It's always easiest to learn that way.
Janet US

On 4/13/2012 10:27 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 10:33 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
>>
>>> I bet you can find a "how-to" knead video at youtube.... I've been
>>> using my mixer dough hook - I love French bread - be sure to get a
>>> mister with water, and mist the loaves in the oven at the beginning of
>>> the baking and maybe once during so the loaves will have a nice
>>> crust. It isn't particularly light - my neighbor and I once ate a
>>> whole loaf right out of the oven with a handy stick of real butter....
>>> in France, we were always served unsalted butter and then sprinkled a
>>> little salt on it. That was really good.
>>
>> I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
>> to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
>> by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
>> next time.
>
> There are bread recipes in your KitchenAid recipe book that came with
> the machine. It's always easiest to learn that way.
> Janet US


The machine is a hand-me-down from my grandmother, so no manual.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:01:50 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>On 4/13/2012 10:27 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 10:33 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bet you can find a "how-to" knead video at youtube.... I've been
>>>> using my mixer dough hook - I love French bread - be sure to get a
>>>> mister with water, and mist the loaves in the oven at the beginning of
>>>> the baking and maybe once during so the loaves will have a nice
>>>> crust. It isn't particularly light - my neighbor and I once ate a
>>>> whole loaf right out of the oven with a handy stick of real butter....
>>>> in France, we were always served unsalted butter and then sprinkled a
>>>> little salt on it. That was really good.
>>>
>>> I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
>>> to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
>>> by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
>>> next time.
>>
>> There are bread recipes in your KitchenAid recipe book that came with
>> the machine. It's always easiest to learn that way.
>> Janet US
>
>
>The machine is a hand-me-down from my grandmother, so no manual.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2157001_make...aid-mixer.html
and
http://www.food.com/recipe/old-relia...d-mixers-52289
Just type KitchenAid mixer bread recipes in your search engine. Lots
of help out there. For more specific help, go to alt.bread.recipes
and just ask a question or pose a problem. Lots of very skilled and
nice people there.
Janet US

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

> I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
> to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
> by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
> next time.

I hope you have the fancy Kitchen Aid. I have the cheap one and it
doesn't like to knead for the 7-10 minutes it takes for bread dough.
The housing gets very, very warm. I wouldn't call it hot, but it
shouldn't heat up like that either.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:35:10 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, Cheryl >
>wrote:
>
>> I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
>> to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
>> by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
>> next time.
>
>I hope you have the fancy Kitchen Aid. I have the cheap one and it
>doesn't like to knead for the 7-10 minutes it takes for bread dough.
>The housing gets very, very warm. I wouldn't call it hot, but it
>shouldn't heat up like that either.

You can cut the machine kneading short by using a process called
'autolyse.' Mix the wet and dry ingredients until you have a rough,
shaggy mass. Cover the mixer with plastic (a waste basket bag will
do) and leave the mass alone for 10-15 minutes. (technically,
autolyse leaves out the salt until the end, but no matter here). Come
back to the mixer bowl at the end of the rest period and turn the
mixer on to speed two. It should come together almost immediately. I
knead at most 5 minutes. If you do true autolyse, toss the salt in
when you begin to knead after rest. The dough will tighten
significantly as salt tightens gluten.
Janet US

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:49:08 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:35:10 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:16:11 -0400, Cheryl >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I forgot the water part of the baking technique! The recipe I used said
> >> to use the kitchen aid dough hook, which I did, then it said to knead it
> >> by hand. I'll have to try letting the dough hook do all the kneading
> >> next time.
> >
> >I hope you have the fancy Kitchen Aid. I have the cheap one and it
> >doesn't like to knead for the 7-10 minutes it takes for bread dough.
> >The housing gets very, very warm. I wouldn't call it hot, but it
> >shouldn't heat up like that either.
>
> You can cut the machine kneading short by using a process called
> 'autolyse.' Mix the wet and dry ingredients until you have a rough,
> shaggy mass. Cover the mixer with plastic (a waste basket bag will
> do) and leave the mass alone for 10-15 minutes. (technically,
> autolyse leaves out the salt until the end, but no matter here). Come
> back to the mixer bowl at the end of the rest period and turn the
> mixer on to speed two. It should come together almost immediately. I
> knead at most 5 minutes. If you do true autolyse, toss the salt in
> when you begin to knead after rest. The dough will tighten
> significantly as salt tightens gluten.
> Janet US

Thanks, Janet. I've never heard that term before.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

In article >,
Cheryl > wrote:

> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
> eggs.

Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
bread.

>
> What's a good method for kneading?

I do like the Peter Reinhart stretch and fold method that a link was
posted to.

marcella

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:10:05 -0700, Marcella Peek
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Cheryl > wrote:
>
>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>
>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>> eggs.
>
>Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
>and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
>bread.

This is not true, evidenced particularly by Carol Field's Cocodrillo,
which spends 17 minutes in the mixer and comes out holier than a
Cardinal's convocation at the Vatican.

The presence of a large-hole interior is more affected by hydration
than kneading, although screw-ups on mixing, kneading or stretch &
fold, proofing, shaping or general handling of the dough can ruin any
loaf. Each type of loaf you make can vary in any and all of these
steps, too. The flours used can influence it, too. You'd be hard
pressed to get a holey interior with a heavy rye bread, you betcha.

If you want a bread with a large holey interior, find a recipe and
technique that promises it.

>> What's a good method for kneading?
>
>I do like the Peter Reinhart stretch and fold method that a link was
>posted to.
>

I do very little kneading. Once the dough goes through an autolyse,
and the rest of the ingredients are added in until mixed, I only do
stretch and fold. No machine or hand kneading is needed.

The initial mix I do in the Electrolux is primarily because I deal
with 8-9lbs of dough at a time. Too unwieldy on the table or in a
bowl.

Smaller amounts can be done by hand if one has the hand strength to
combine ingredients. And the mixer is necessary for specialty breads
such as the cocodrillo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7625306552655/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7615764795916/

and, this one, although the photo link no longer works.

http://www.foodbanter.com/sourdough/...h-day-1-a.html

Boron

"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Cheryl > wrote:
>
>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>
>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>> eggs.
>
> Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
> and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
> bread.

Kneading produces gluten. It turns the raw protein into long strands hence
the elasticity.

Paul

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:28:19 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

>
>"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Cheryl > wrote:
>>
>>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
>>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>>
>>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>>> eggs.
>>
>> Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
>> and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
>> bread.
>
>Kneading produces gluten. It turns the raw protein into long strands hence
>the elasticity.
>
>Paul
>
The gluten strands can form without kneading. All that great no-knead
bread points you down that path.

Boron

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:28:19 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Cheryl > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>>>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>>>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>>>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>>>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that
>>>> way?
>>>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>>>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>>>
>>>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like
>>>> the
>>>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>>>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>>>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil
>>>> or
>>>> eggs.
>>>
>>> Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
>>> and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
>>> bread.
>>
>>Kneading produces gluten. It turns the raw protein into long strands
>>hence
>>the elasticity.
>>
>>Paul
>>
> The gluten strands can form without kneading. All that great no-knead
> bread points you down that path.

I can see a war brewing. Pass.

Paul

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:46:14 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:28:19 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Cheryl > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>>>>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>>>>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>>>>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>>>>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that
>>>>> way?
>>>>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>>>>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>>>>
>>>>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like
>>>>> the
>>>>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>>>>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>>>>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil
>>>>> or
>>>>> eggs.
>>>>
>>>> Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
>>>> and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
>>>> bread.
>>>
>>>Kneading produces gluten. It turns the raw protein into long strands
>>>hence
>>>the elasticity.
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>> The gluten strands can form without kneading. All that great no-knead
>> bread points you down that path.
>
>I can see a war brewing. Pass.
>
>Paul
>
No need for a war. It is an absolute fact that gluten does develop
without kneading. That is the basis of all no-knead breads. That is
one of the purposes of autolyse. It is why Stretch and Fold works.

I'm not advocating that everyone give up kneading. Just pointing out
that there are ways to use various properties of the dough to your
advantage.

Janet US

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:46:14 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:28:19 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Cheryl > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>>>>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>>>>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>>>>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>>>>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that
>>>>> way?
>>>>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>>>>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>>>>
>>>>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like
>>>>> the
>>>>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>>>>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>>>>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil
>>>>> or
>>>>> eggs.
>>>>
>>>> Kneading organizes the gluten. The more you knead the tighter the crumb
>>>> and the less likely you will have the large irregular holes of french
>>>> bread.
>>>
>>>Kneading produces gluten. It turns the raw protein into long strands
>>>hence
>>>the elasticity.
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>> The gluten strands can form without kneading. All that great no-knead
>> bread points you down that path.
>
>I can see a war brewing. Pass.
>
>Paul
>
Try science and logic instead of BS:


http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/t...ead-dough.html
So how does the no-knead bread recipe, which, appropriately, has no
kneading involved produce the same effect? With the help of enzymes.
Flour naturally contains enzymes that break down long proteins into
shorter ones in a process called autolysis (auto meaning "self" and
lysis meaning "break down"). Bakers have known about this process for
years, and many incorporate an autolysis step into their recipes,
mixing together flour and water and allowing it to rest before adding
the remaining ingredients and kneading (salt can inhibit the action of
autolysis).

20110616-no-knead-dough-04.jpg

By breaking down the proteins into shorter pieces in this way, they
become much easier to untangle and re-align, greatly increasing the
efficiency of kneading.

The No-Knead Bread recipe simply takes this concept to the extreme. By
mixing together your ingredients and letting them sit around at room
temperature for a long, long time (at least 12 hours, and up to
24—remember, there's salt in the dough which inhibits autolysis, so
you need to compensate for this), the proteins are broken down so
much, that even the tiniest of mechanical actions can cause them to
align and link up.

Huh? But I thought this was no knead dough, not "tiniest amount of
kneading" dough.

Yes, indeed it is, and truth be told, there is some kneading going on,
but it's not being done by you, nor any other human or even by a
member of the kingdom Animalia, for that matter. It's the yeast..

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:33:23 -0400, Cheryl >
wrote:

>I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
>How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>eggs.
>
>What's a good method for kneading?

To get some really expert advice, go to alt.bread.recipes.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:30:16 -0400, The Cook >
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:33:23 -0400, Cheryl >
>wrote:
>
>>I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>>lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>>other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>>freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>>out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>>used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>
>>How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>>picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>>more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>>loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>>eggs.
>>
>>What's a good method for kneading?
>
>To get some really expert advice, go to alt.bread.recipes.

That's be good advice, but it's so quiet over there these days. Sad,
but that is the truth.

Really, The Fresh Loaf is incredibly active and extremely helpful and
tolerant of newbies. Easily searched, too.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

On Apr 10, 11:33*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
> lately since getting my new oven. *I made some crusty french bread the
> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
> out really good but not light. *Is french bread supposed to be that way?
> * Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. *I
> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>
> How exactly do you knead bread? *My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
> more than doubled. *I let it rise another half hour after forming the
> loaves. *I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
> eggs.
>
> What's a good method for kneading?

Maybe not what you want to hear but......think about a bread machine.
I've had mine for over 20 years, used it thousands of times, and don't
ever want to knead. It has paid for itself many times over, not to
mention the decent. tasty, nutritious product.

"Kalmia" > wrote in message
...
> On Apr 10, 11:33 pm, Cheryl > wrote:
>> I've never mastered the art of bread making but have been trying some
>> lately since getting my new oven. I made some crusty french bread the
>> other day and the recipe I used made two big loaves so one is in the
>> freezer after the second raising but is uncooked. The first loaf turned
>> out really good but not light. Is french bread supposed to be that way?
>> Very little in the way of holes but there were some in the seams. I
>> used a method that said to pinch all of the seams including the ends.
>>
>> How exactly do you knead bread? My ball didn't turn out smooth like the
>> picture before I let it rise for an hour, actually a bit more, but it
>> more than doubled. I let it rise another half hour after forming the
>> loaves. I guess french bread will be different since there is no oil or
>> eggs.
>>
>> What's a good method for kneading?
>
> Maybe not what you want to hear but......think about a bread machine.
> I've had mine for over 20 years, used it thousands of times, and don't
> ever want to knead. It has paid for itself many times over, not to
> mention the decent. tasty, nutritious product.

I use a bread machine for kneading if I am busy, but I don't like to bake in
it. I like to do the second rise outside of the machine and I bake in the
oven.


--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

On 4/11/2012 1:36 PM, Kalmia wrote:

> Maybe not what you want to hear but......think about a bread machine.
> I've had mine for over 20 years, used it thousands of times, and don't
> ever want to knead. It has paid for itself many times over, not to
> mention the decent. tasty, nutritious product.

I've thought about a bread machine and might buy one. I can eat too
much bread if it's fresh made, so by doing it the long way will
hopefully keep it down to just when I feel like spending a few hours.

On Apr 13, 5:25*pm, Cheryl > wrote:

> I've thought about a bread machine and might buy one. *I can eat too
> much bread if it's fresh made, so by doing it the long way will
> hopefully keep it down to just when I feel like spending a few hours. *


I went off wheat and found I really can't do that anymore. I used to
bake a lot. In fact my multigrain bread recipe was a crowing
achievement for me. I was so bummed when I found out I was
intolerant. But I have reaped the rewards of not eating wheat any
more.

I basically gave up breakmaking because gluten free breads SUCK. I
found a recipe on the site that
Boron referred to that looks like it might make an actual loaf of
bread. I am going to try that soon. I hear you
when you say you eat too much bread if it's fresh made. I could do
that in a heartbeat I loved it so much.

If you would like to try my recipe and tell me how it came out for
you, please do. I can live vicariously through you!!! :-)

http://hizzoners.com/recipes/breakfa...ti-grain-bread

On 4/13/2012 9:43 PM, ImStillMags wrote:

> I went off wheat and found I really can't do that anymore. I used to
> bake a lot. In fact my multigrain bread recipe was a crowing
> achievement for me. I was so bummed when I found out I was
> intolerant. But I have reaped the rewards of not eating wheat any
> more.
>
> I basically gave up breakmaking because gluten free breads SUCK. I
> found a recipe on the site that
> Boron referred to that looks like it might make an actual loaf of
> bread. I am going to try that soon. I hear you
> when you say you eat too much bread if it's fresh made. I could do
> that in a heartbeat I loved it so much.
>
> If you would like to try my recipe and tell me how it came out for
> you, please do. I can live vicariously through you!!!:-)
>
> http://hizzoners.com/recipes/breakfa...ti-grain-bread

Thanks for the recipe! I'm not intolerant to gluten that I know of, but
eating too much yeasty bread will cause ... well, TMI. I will try your
recipe because it looks healthy and with lots of fiber which I need.

After the replies about youtube for kneading, I found this video where
the guy makes it look so easy that I'm going to try his method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY4WJRSzY8

On Apr 13, 9:43*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
> On Apr 13, 5:25*pm, Cheryl > wrote:
>
> > I've thought about a bread machine and might buy one. *I can eat too
> > much bread if it's fresh made, so by doing it the long way will
> > hopefully keep it down to just when I feel like spending a few hours. *
>
> I went off wheat and found I really can't do that anymore. * I used to
> bake a lot. *In fact my multigrain bread recipe was a crowing
> achievement for me. * *I was so bummed when I found out I was
> intolerant. * But I have reaped the rewards of not eating wheat any
> more.
>
> I basically gave up breakmaking because gluten free breads SUCK. * *I
> found a recipe on the site that
> Boron referred to that looks like it might make an actual loaf of
> bread. * I am going to try that soon. * I hear you
> when you say you eat too much bread if it's fresh made. * I could do
> that in a heartbeat I loved it so much.
> try your recipe -
> If you would like to try my recipe and tell me how it came out for
> you, please do. * I can live vicariously through you!!! * :-)
>
> http://hizzoners.com/recipes/breakfa...ti-grain-bread

I'm going to try your recipe - will report back here someday. At
least you don't call for a lot of hard to find ingreeds.

and if you try that gluton free one, report and recipe anxiously awaited,
Lee
"ImStillMags" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 13, 5:25 pm, Cheryl > wrote:

> I've thought about a bread machine and might buy one. I can eat too
> much bread if it's fresh made, so by doing it the long way will
> hopefully keep it down to just when I feel like spending a few hours.


I went off wheat and found I really can't do that anymore. I used to
bake a lot. In fact my multigrain bread recipe was a crowing
achievement for me. I was so bummed when I found out I was
intolerant. But I have reaped the rewards of not eating wheat any
more.

I basically gave up breakmaking because gluten free breads SUCK. I
found a recipe on the site that
Boron referred to that looks like it might make an actual loaf of
bread. I am going to try that soon. I hear you
when you say you eat too much bread if it's fresh made. I could do
that in a heartbeat I loved it so much.

If you would like to try my recipe and tell me how it came out for
you, please do. I can live vicariously through you!!! :-)

http://hizzoners.com/recipes/breakfa...ti-grain-bread