Company coming for Wednesday lunch. I thought I would make pasta with
a bolognese sauce. I've never made this sauce before, but I have an
internet recipe which I will use. Anyone have any other ideas as to
how authentic this recipe is? It avoids the use of much in the way of
tomatoes. Apparently, the American versions of this sauce use more
tomatoes, and tomato products such as tomPaste.
Pandora might be inclined to chime in here...

http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...hentic-recipe/

{
400 grams fresh tagliatelle or fettucine
300 grams minced beef – The recommended cut is thin flank aka
skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.
150 grams unsmoked pancetta — minced very finely
50 grams carrot — finely chopped or minced
50 grams celery — finely chopped or minced
50 grams onion — finely chopped or minced
30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)
1/2 glass red or white wine
180 ml fresh milk
olive oil
salt and pepper

Fry the pancetta gently in a little olive oil until it starts to
release its fat. Be careful not to burn.
Add the vegetables and fry until the onions are transparent,
stirring from time to time.
Add the beef and cook until it is lightly browned. When it starts
to make popping noises, it’s done.
Add the tomato puree and the wine and mix well.
Add the milk, little by little until it is completely absorbed.
Season with salt and pepper, cover and cook very slowly for 3 to 4
hours.
Stir occasionally and if it looks like drying out, add a little
more milk.
Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)
Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
meat sauce.

Variation: The Academy allows the addition of Porcini mushrooms.

}

On 2012-05-07 18:05:04 +0000, A Moose in Love said:

> Company coming for Wednesday lunch. I thought I would make pasta with
> a bolognese sauce. I've never made this sauce before, but I have an
> internet recipe which I will use. Anyone have any other ideas as to
> how authentic this recipe is? It avoids the use of much in the way of
> tomatoes. Apparently, the American versions of this sauce use more
> tomatoes, and tomato products such as tomPaste.
> Pandora might be inclined to chime in here...

"Authenticity". Jeez, I have such problems with that concept with
dishes that have migrated across continents and centuries. Authentic
Bolognese sauce from 80 years ago isn't "authentic" any more, even in
Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems to indicate it is
the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also American variation),
since the older "authentic" did not include tomato.

But only about 1 oz. It straddles "authenticities"!

> http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...hentic-recipe/
>
>
> {
> 400 grams fresh tagliatelle or fettucine
> 300 grams minced beef €“ The recommended cut is thin flank aka
> skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.
> 150 grams unsmoked pancetta €” minced very finely
> 50 grams carrot €” finely chopped or minced
> 50 grams celery €” finely chopped or minced
> 50 grams onion €” finely chopped or minced
> 30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
> concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)
> 1/2 glass red or white wine
> 180 ml fresh milk
> olive oil
> salt and pepper
>
> Fry the pancetta gently in a little olive oil until it starts to
> release its fat. Be careful not to burn.
> Add the vegetables and fry until the onions are transparent,
> stirring from time to time.
> Add the beef and cook until it is lightly browned. When it starts
> to make popping noises, its done.
> Add the tomato puree and the wine and mix well.
> Add the milk, little by little until it is completely absorbed.
> Season with salt and pepper, cover and cook very slowly for 3 to 4
> hours.
> Stir occasionally and if it looks like drying out, add a little
> more milk.
> Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)
> Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
> pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
> meat sauce.
>
> Variation: The Academy allows the addition of Porcini mushrooms.
>
> }


--
I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use.
-- Galileo

On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:05:04 -0700 (PDT), A Moose in Love
> wrote:

>Company coming for Wednesday lunch. I thought I would make pasta with
>a bolognese sauce. I've never made this sauce before, but I have an
>internet recipe which I will use. Anyone have any other ideas as to
>how authentic this recipe is? It avoids the use of much in the way of
>tomatoes. Apparently, the American versions of this sauce use more
>tomatoes, and tomato products such as tomPaste.
>Pandora might be inclined to chime in here...
>
>http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...hentic-recipe/
>
>{
> 400 grams fresh tagliatelle or fettucine
> 300 grams minced beef – The recommended cut is thin flank aka
>skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.
> 150 grams unsmoked pancetta — minced very finely
> 50 grams carrot — finely chopped or minced
> 50 grams celery — finely chopped or minced
> 50 grams onion — finely chopped or minced
> 30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
>concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)
> 1/2 glass red or white wine
> 180 ml fresh milk
> olive oil
> salt and pepper
>
> Fry the pancetta gently in a little olive oil until it starts to
>release its fat. Be careful not to burn.
> Add the vegetables and fry until the onions are transparent,
>stirring from time to time.
> Add the beef and cook until it is lightly browned. When it starts
>to make popping noises, it’s done.
> Add the tomato puree and the wine and mix well.
> Add the milk, little by little until it is completely absorbed.
> Season with salt and pepper, cover and cook very slowly for 3 to 4
>hours.
> Stir occasionally and if it looks like drying out, add a little
>more milk.
> Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)
> Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
>pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
>meat sauce.
>
> Variation: The Academy allows the addition of Porcini mushrooms.
>
>}

What is triple concentrated tomato puree? Could that be similar to
tomato paste? Any recipes I have use crushed tomatoes.
Janet US

On 7 Mag, 20:05, A Moose in Love > wrote:
> Company coming for Wednesday lunch. *I thought I would make pasta with
> a bolognese sauce. *I've never made this sauce before, but I have an
> internet recipe which I will use. *Anyone have any other ideas as to
> how authentic this recipe is? *It avoids the use of much in the way of
> tomatoes. *Apparently, the American versions of this sauce use more
> tomatoes, and tomato products such as tomPaste.
> Pandora might be inclined to chime in here...
>
> http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...la-bolognese-a...
>
> {
> * * 400 grams fresh tagliatelle or fettucine
> * * 300 grams minced beef – The recommended cut is thin flank aka
> skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.
> * * 150 grams unsmoked pancetta — minced very finely
> * * 50 grams carrot — finely chopped or minced
> * * 50 grams celery — finely chopped or minced
> * * 50 grams onion — finely chopped or minced
> * * 30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
> concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)
> * * 1/2 glass red or white wine
> * * 180 ml fresh milk
> * * olive oil
> * * salt and pepper
>
> * * Fry the pancetta gently in a little olive oil until it starts to
> release its fat. Be careful not to burn.
> * * Add the vegetables and fry until the onions are transparent,
> stirring from time to time.
> * * Add the beef and cook until it is lightly browned. When it starts
> to make popping noises, it’s done.
> * * Add the tomato puree and the wine and mix well.
> * * Add the milk, little by little until it is completely absorbed.
> * * Season with salt and pepper, cover and cook very slowly for 3 to 4
> hours.
> * * Stir occasionally and if it looks like drying out, add a little
> more milk.
> * * Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)
> * * Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
> pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
> meat sauce.
>
> * * Variation: The Academy allows the addition of Porcini mushrooms.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> }

I think you will have to ask to Vilco, because he is native of the
country of ragù alla bolognese! I have a recipe, but I think that
Vilco recipe is better. And then I have to write mine

A Moose in Love > wrote:

[trimmage throughout]

> Anyone have any other ideas as to
> how authentic this recipe is?

> http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...bolognese-auth
> entic-recipe/

It looks like a perfectly authentic recipe. Compare it with the quasi
"official" recipe I once posted:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/552e2e7f7896a68f>

Here is a bit of further discussion:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/57cc44f79b85c9fc>

And here is everything else one needs to know about ragù alla bolognese:

<http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1 42&Itemid=898>

<http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=456&I temid=899>

<http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=462&I temid=900>

<http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=459&I temid=902>

<http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=457&I temid=901>

Victor

On May 7, 2:58*pm, Janet Bostwick > wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:05:04 -0700 (PDT), A Moose in Love
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >Company coming for Wednesday lunch. *I thought I would make pasta with
> >a bolognese sauce. *I've never made this sauce before, but I have an
> >internet recipe which I will use. *Anyone have any other ideas as to
> >how authentic this recipe is? *It avoids the use of much in the way of
> >tomatoes. *Apparently, the American versions of this sauce use more
> >tomatoes, and tomato products such as tomPaste.
> >Pandora might be inclined to chime in here...
>
> >http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...la-bolognese-a...
>
> >{
> > * *400 grams fresh tagliatelle or fettucine
> > * *300 grams minced beef – The recommended cut is thin flank aka
> >skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.
> > * *150 grams unsmoked pancetta — minced very finely
> > * *50 grams carrot — finely chopped or minced
> > * *50 grams celery — finely chopped or minced
> > * *50 grams onion — finely chopped or minced
> > * *30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
> >concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)
> > * *1/2 glass red or white wine
> > * *180 ml fresh milk
> > * *olive oil
> > * *salt and pepper
>
> > * *Fry the pancetta gently in a little olive oil until it starts to
> >release its fat. Be careful not to burn.
> > * *Add the vegetables and fry until the onions are transparent,
> >stirring from time to time.
> > * *Add the beef and cook until it is lightly browned. When it starts
> >to make popping noises, it’s done.
> > * *Add the tomato puree and the wine and mix well.
> > * *Add the milk, little by little until it is completely absorbed.
> > * *Season with salt and pepper, cover and cook very slowly for 3 to 4
> >hours.
> > * *Stir occasionally and if it looks like drying out, add a little
> >more milk.
> > * *Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)
> > * *Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
> >pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
> >meat sauce.
>
> > * *Variation: The Academy allows the addition of Porcini mushrooms.
>
> >}
>
> What is triple concentrated tomato puree? *Could that be similar to
> tomato paste? *Any recipes I have use crushed tomatoes.
> Janet US

I'm going to use tomPaste instead. Even if it's not 100%
tripleConcentrated tomPuree. It'll have to do.

On May 7, 5:00*pm, (Victor Sack) wrote:
> A Moose in Love > wrote:
>
> [trimmage throughout]
>
> > Anyone have any other ideas as to
> > how authentic this recipe is?
> >http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...bolognese-auth
> > entic-recipe/
>
> It looks like a perfectly authentic recipe. *Compare it with the quasi
> "official" recipe I once posted:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/552e2e7f7896a68f>
>
That sounds like it would be very good.



> Here is a bit of further discussion:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/57cc44f79b85c9fc>
>
> And here is everything else one needs to know about rag alla bolognese:
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/?option=com_content&view=category&layout=...>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article...>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article...>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article...>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article...>
>
> Victor

On 5/7/2012 5:00 PM, Victor Sack wrote:
> A Moose in > wrote:
>
> [trimmage throughout]
>
>> Anyone have any other ideas as to
>> how authentic this recipe is?
>
>> http://culinariaitalia.wordpress.com...bolognese-auth
>> entic-recipe/
>
> It looks like a perfectly authentic recipe. Compare it with the quasi
> "official" recipe I once posted:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/552e2e7f7896a68f>
>
> Here is a bit of further discussion:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/57cc44f79b85c9fc>
>
> And here is everything else one needs to know about ragù alla bolognese:
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1 42&Itemid=898>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=456&I temid=899>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=462&I temid=900>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=459&I temid=902>
>
> <http://www.itchefs-gvci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=457&I temid=901>
>
> Victor

Here's my low-fat Ragu Bolignesi
Note the definition of "Ragu"

Ragu Bolognesi
My modification of the classic Italian meat sauce for pasta! A ragu is a
meat sauce with tomato; it is not a tomato sauce with meat and it should
be rich without being heavy. Bologna's ragu is the most famous in Italy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INGREDIENTS:

1 cup carrots, diced small
3/4 cup celery, diced small
2/3 mushrooms sliced (optional)
½ cup fresh or 1 tab dried oregano (mixed Italian or Provencal herbs
possible)
2 cup onions, diced small
3/4 lb ground fat-free turkey or chicken breast
2 oz chopped soy pepperoni
6 ounces fat-free Canadian bacon, diced or julienned.
1/2 cup dry white wine
2 tab minced garlic
4 tab Italian tomato paste, diluted in 10 tablespoons beef stock
Chopped sun-dried tomatoes can be added with the paste
2 cups fat-free skim milk
Salt and black pepper


PREPARATION:

In a sauce pot, stir in the carrots, celery, mushrooms and onions with a
squirting of oil. Season with salt and pepper. Sauté the vegetables for
about 3 minutes or until translucent. In a mixing bowl, combine the
meats and season with salt and pepper. Increase the heat and stir in the
meat and cook for 5 minutes, or until browning. Stir in the oregano,
wine, garlic and diluted tomato paste (sun dried tomatoes), and reduce
the heat to very low. Cook partially covered for 2 hours. From time to
time, stir in a quarter cup or so of skim milk. The sauce will look
milky with each addition but by the end of the two hours it will be
incorporated. Season with salt and black pepper.

Yield: 4 servings


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

On 5/7/2012 8:58 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> What is triple concentrated tomato puree? Could that be similar to
> tomato paste? Any recipes I have use crushed tomatoes.
> Janet US

I once bought a can of tomato puree that was almost the thickness of
tomato paste. It was the first can of puree that I ever bought. You
could use it like tomato paste but it was the same price as the sauce.
It was a very nice, economical, product. It's like the best of the sauce
and paste world and I'd buy it again - if I could find it. The later can
that I brought were more like sauce instead of paste. Not too
impressive. As it goes, I've completely forgot what brand it was that I
got the first time. Stupid, stupid!

It was a good product, all right. Too bad I can't find it. That's the
breaks.

In article
>,
A Moose in Love > wrote:

> This is nice. I will play with original recipe. I definitely want to
> add shrooms. OK. It doesn't matter if it's completely authentic.
> Whatever that means in the first place. I'm looking for good flavour,
> that is somewhat authentic. The reason in the first place that I
> mentioned an 'authentic' recipe for this dish is because after reading
> about it on the net, I found that the North American version is
> somewhat different and uses much more tomatoes.

If authenticity isn't a bother, chuck a can of drained black olives into
the sauce, sliced or not. You will be amazed at how much black olives
don't ugly up the flavor of the sauce or the final dish.
Provided you like olives.

leo

On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:05:04 -0700 (PDT), A Moose in Love
> wrote:

> 30 grams triple concentrated tomato puree(if using double
> concentrated, increase the quantity by about a third)

I have no idea what that is. Double and triple concentrated tomato
sound like Australian terms to me, not Canadian.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

gtr wrote:

> "Authenticity". Jeez, I have such problems with that concept with
> dishes that have migrated across continents and centuries. Authentic
> Bolognese sauce from 80 years ago isn't "authentic" any more, even in
> Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems to indicate it
> is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also American
> variation), since the older "authentic" did not include tomato.

Nonsense: the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the 18th
century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and bolognese,
kitchens.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> What is triple concentrated tomato puree? Could that be similar to
> tomato paste? Any recipes I have use crushed tomatoes.

This definition of tomato puree I found on wikipedia fits perfectly with the
definition of concentrated tomato puree, and with that of "concentrato di
pomodoro", aka what we actually use for ragu' in Emilia Romagna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_paste

A Moose in Love wrote:

> Serve with Fettuccine or Tagliatelle (NOT Spaghetti!)

+11111


> Serve with Parmesan cheese on the side. Alternatively toss the
> pasta first in a little butter and then in Parmesan before adding the
> meat sauce.

That's what my granny used to do in winter for us kids

On 2012-05-08 15:19:26 +0000, ViLco said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>> "Authenticity". Jeez, I have such problems with that concept with
>> dishes that have migrated across continents and centuries. Authentic
>> Bolognese sauce from 80 years ago isn't "authentic" any more, even in
>> Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems to indicate it
>> is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also American
>> variation), since the older "authentic" did not include tomato.
>
> Nonsense: the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
> bolognese, kitchens.

You misread my post.

On May 7, 11:05*am, A Moose in Love >
wrote:
>

> * * 300 grams minced beef – The recommended cut is thin flank aka
> skirt (finta cartella in Italian) but any good quality mince will do.


Flank and skirt steak are very different products.

http://www.richardfisher.com

On 2012-05-10 01:34:36 +0000, Jean B. said:

> Hmmm. "Traditional" does make more sense than "authentic" does. But
> then when does a dish become traditional?

You kinda have to state it the time and tradition, which makes even
more sense.

gtr wrote:

>>> more, even in Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems
>>> to indicate it is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also
>>> American variation), since the older "authentic" did not include
>>> tomato.

>> Nonsense: the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
>> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
>> bolognese, kitchens.

> You misread my post.

Oh yeah? Then can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which
did not include tomato?

On Fri, 11 May 2012 16:44:12 +0200, "ViLco" > wrote:

> gtr wrote:
>
> >>> more, even in Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems
> >>> to indicate it is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also
> >>> American variation), since the older "authentic" did not include
> >>> tomato.
>
> >> Nonsense: the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
> >> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
> >> bolognese, kitchens.
>
> > You misread my post.
>
> Oh yeah? Then can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which
> did not include tomato?
>
I haven't followed this thread. Have you posted a link to the
official Bolognese sauce recipe yet?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

sf wrote:

> I haven't followed this thread. Have you posted a link to the
> official Bolognese sauce recipe yet?

If it contained tomatoes, it would be "original" only since the 16th
century or so. Before that, tomatoes were unknown in Europe.

"ViLco" wrote:
> gtr wrote:
>
>>>> more, even in Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems
>>>> to indicate it is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also
>>>> American variation), since the older "authentic" did not include
>>>> tomato.
>
>>> Nonsense: the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
>>> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
>>> bolognese, kitchens.
>
>> You misread my post.
>
>Oh yeah? Then can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which
>did not include tomato?

There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is traditional
but every cook makes it differently and it has constantly evolved
since its beginnings... tomato didn't begin to appear in Bolognese
sauce until some 150 years ago. Many cooks still don't include
tomato.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolognese_sauce

On 2012-05-11 14:44:12 +0000, ViLco said:

>> more, even in Bologna: The appearance of tomato in the recipe seems
>> to indicate it is the more current "authentic" Bolognese (and also
>> American variation), since the older "authentic" did not include
>> tomato.

> ...the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
> bolognese, kitchens.

> ...can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which did not
> include tomato?

I didn't say anything about when tomatoes arrive in Italy, and don't
know. Certainly even after tomatoes did arrive in Italy people didn't
put them in every dish that previously existed. I assume this included
Bolognese sauce. Later clearly people did put tomatoes in Bolognese
sauce. The That's just two "authentics". An early recipe indicates
they used veal filet. Certainly somebody somewhere did not use veal.
The that's another two authentics.

You seem to be implying that never in history did a ragu alla Bolognese
appear that did not have tomatoes in it. Surely not.

My information regarding the appearance of tomatoes in Bolognese sauce
comes from wiki (quoted below with no mention of tomatoes). Your turn:
Where does your information come from that there is no authentic
Bolognese sauch which does not include tomatoes?

"Ragu alla bolognese, as a sauce for pasta, follows the origin of ragus
in Italian cuisine. The first known reference to ragu as a pasta sauce
dates to the very late 18th century, and originated in Imola, very near
to the city of Bologna. The first recipe for a meat sauce characterized
as being Bolognese came from Pellegrino Artusi and was included in his
cookbook published in 1891. Artusi's recipe, Maccheroni alla bolognese,
is believed to have originated from the middle 19th century when he
spent considerable time in Bologna. In Artusi's era maccheroni was a
generic term for pasta, both dried and fresh.

"Artusi's sauce called for predominantly lean veal filet along with
pancetta, butter, onion, and carrot. The meats and vegetables were to
be finely minced, cooked with butter until the meats browned, then
covered and cooked with broth. Artusi added that the sauce could be
made even tastier adding small pieces of dried mushroom, a few truffle
slices, or a chicken liver cooked with the meat and cut into tiny
chunks. He further added that when the sauce was completely done you
could add as a final touch half a glass of cream to make an even more
delicate dish. For service Artusi recommended a medium size pasta made
from durum wheat. The pasta was to be made fresh, cooked, drained, and
then flavored with the sauce and Parmigiano cheese."

On 2012-05-11 21:06:20 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:

> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is traditional
> but every cook makes it differently and it has constantly evolved
> since its beginnings...

I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.

On May 12, 11:10*pm, gtr > wrote:
> On 2012-05-11 21:06:20 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:
>
> > There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
> > thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is traditional
> > but every cook makes it differently and it has constantly evolved
> > since its beginnings...
>
> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.

Then you are both wrong because there is an official recipe in a safe
in Bologna. No one needs to make their version of ragu because no one
is coming to your house to taste your famous ragu. People do,
however, travel to Bologna to eat the food for which she is famous.
Ragu is the generic term for a meat dish often, but not always, eaten
with pasta. Bolognese ragu is not by a long shot rthe only ragu which
can describe any longish cooked meat dish made of tabbit, duck, lamb,
beef, veal etc.

gtr wrote:

>> ...the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
>> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
>> bolognese, kitchens.

>> ...can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which did
>> not include tomato?

> I didn't say anything about when tomatoes arrive in Italy, and don't
> know. Certainly even after tomatoes did arrive in Italy people didn't
> put them in every dish that previously existed. I assume this
> included Bolognese sauce.

No, as I already told you, Bolognese sauce dates back to long after tomato
arrived in Italy, this was my point, and you confirmed it by posting this:

> "Ragu alla bolognese, as a sauce for pasta, follows the origin of
> ragus in Italian cuisine. The first known reference to ragu as a
> pasta sauce dates to the very late 18th century

Brooklyn1 wrote:

>> Oh yeah? Then can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"*
>> which did not include tomato?

> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is traditional
> but every cook makes it differently and it has constantly evolved
> since its beginnings... tomato didn't begin to appear in Bolognese
> sauce until some 150 years ago. Many cooks still don't include
> tomato.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolognese_sauce

ROTFO:
"Another reflection of the evolution of the cuisine over the past 150 years
is the addition of tomato, either as a puree or as a concentrated paste, to
the common mix of ingredients. Similarly, both wine and milk appear today in
the list of ingredients in many of the contemporary recipes, and beef has
mostly displaced veal as the dominant meat."

That's plain bullshit and even the gtr's post proves it wrong when he
reports "The first known reference to ragu as a pasta sauce dates to the
very late 18th century" which is way *after* tomato arrived in Italy, so
what is this pre-tomato version from, apart these guys' brainfarts? Can you
provide a soruce, since these guys didn't?
No ragu' alla bolognese without tomato has ever existed, before there was
something else, not something who can be traced as the ancestor of ragu'
alla bolognese.

PS do you regularly use english wikipedia as a guide about italian food?
ROTFL

gtr wrote:

>> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
>> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is
>> traditional but every cook makes it differently and it has
>> constantly evolved since its beginnings...

> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.

Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

ViLco wrote:

> >> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
> >> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is
> >> traditional but every cook makes it differently and it has
> >> constantly evolved since its beginnings...
>
> > I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.
>
> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

You may have missed the sarcasm...

George M. Middius wrote:

>>> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.

>> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

> You may have missed the sarcasm...

I don't see sarcasm in someone quoting a load of BS

ViLco wrote:
>
> gtr wrote:
>
> >> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
> >> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is
> >> traditional but every cook makes it differently and it has
> >> constantly evolved since its beginnings...
>
> > I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.
>
> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

Hmmmmm....you might have hit on something good there?

Gary

Gary wrote:

>> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

> Hmmmmm....you might have hit on something good there?

Who could know? Someone has to try it and report back, lol

On 2012-05-14 11:36:18 +0000, ViLco said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>>> ...the origins of Ragu' alla Bolognese date back to just the
>>> 18th century, longo after the arrive of tomato in italian, and
>>> bolognese, kitchens.
>
>>> ...can you tell me what would be this *older "authentic"* which did
>>> not include tomato?
>
>> I didn't say anything about when tomatoes arrive in Italy, and don't
>> know. Certainly even after tomatoes did arrive in Italy people didn't
>> put them in every dish that previously existed. I assume this
>> included Bolognese sauce.
>
> No, as I already told you, Bolognese sauce dates back to long after
> tomato arrived in Italy, this was my point, and you confirmed it by
> posting this:
>
>> "Ragu alla bolognese, as a sauce for pasta, follows the origin of
>> ragus in Italian cuisine. The first known reference to ragu as a
>> pasta sauce dates to the very late 18th century

My point was that the oldest known recipe does not include tomatoes.
When tomatoes arrived in Italy, or any other ingredient not present in
the sauce, never really entered my consideration.

On 2012-05-14 11:45:45 +0000, ViLco said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>>> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
>>> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is
>>> traditional but every cook makes it differently and it has
>>> constantly evolved since its beginnings...
>
>> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.
>
> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch

This sauce, this dish, another sauce or dish: You really think that one
recipe somewhere on the planet is the bona fide authentic while any
variations then because imposters? Good luck with that.

On 2012-05-14 12:13:06 +0000, ViLco said:

> George M. Middius wrote:
>
>>>> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.
>
>>> Then put some miracle whip, cocoa and venison in your next batch
>
>> You may have missed the sarcasm...
>
> I don't see sarcasm in someone quoting a load of BS

You asked me where my data came from I told you. I asked you where you
get yours from, no answer?

On 2012-05-13 08:15:39 +0000, Giusi said:

> On May 12, 11:10*pm, gtr > wrote:
>> On 2012-05-11 21:06:20 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:
>>
>>> There is no such thing as authentic Bolognese sauce (there is no such
>>> thing as any authentic recipe), the closest description is traditional
>>> but every cook makes it differently and it has constantly evolved
>>> since its beginnings...
>>
>> I agree with you BROOKLYN1 entirely.
>
> Then you are both wrong because there is an official recipe in a safe
> in Bologna.

And if anyone in Bologna makes a variation on that it is not authentic?
Do they have access to that safe? Why is it in a safe--so nobody will
know what it is?

> No one needs to make their version of ragu because no one
> is coming to your house to taste your famous ragu. People do,
> however, travel to Bologna to eat the food for which she is famous.

Till then they can eat at home and cook just the way they want to and
call it anything they like. Jeez, can an ass get any tighter!? If so
you better lock it up in a safe!

gtr wrote:

>> Then you are both wrong because there is an official recipe in a safe
>> in Bologna.

> And if anyone in Bologna makes a variation on that it is not
> authentic?

There's a range of variations which remain into the authenticity zone,
others which don't. Ragu' alla bolognese without tomato is far out of that
zone

> Do they have access to that safe? Why is it in a safe--so
> nobody will know what it is?

It's been published thousands of time, even on this same newsgroup, so no
need for freaking "access to the safe"

>> No one needs to make their version of ragu because no one
>> is coming to your house to taste your famous ragu. People do,
>> however, travel to Bologna to eat the food for which she is famous.

> Till then they can eat at home and cook just the way they want to and
> call it anything they like.

This one here is a newsgroup, not "home", and we're writing, not talking
after some glasses of booze

> Jeez, can an ass get any tighter!? If so you better lock it up in a safe!

The typical answer of someone whose ass got royally kicked

gtr wrote:

>> No, as I already told you, Bolognese sauce dates back to long after
>> tomato arrived in Italy, this was my point, and you confirmed it by
>> posting this:

>>> "Ragu alla bolognese, as a sauce for pasta, follows the origin of
>>> ragus in Italian cuisine. The first known reference to ragu as a
>>> pasta sauce dates to the very late 18th century

> My point was that the oldest known recipe does not include tomatoes.

Then find it, come on, or did you find only Sheldon's link where there's not
a single reference to backup the BS it displays? Then again, it to you
that's a "soruce" then your idea of "source" is IMHO very superficial

> When tomatoes arrived in Italy, or any other ingredient not present in
> the sauce, never really entered my consideration.

How can one be so elusive? You yourself posted a reference to ragu' dating
tu just the end of 18th century, when tomato was already in use in all of
Italy, so why do you continue to pretend there's an older recipe? Try to
find an agreement with yourself before spreading more BS on the matter,
since you're obviously in serious contradiction with yourself.

gtr wrote:

>> I don't see sarcasm in someone quoting a load of BS

> You asked me where my data came from I told you.

I must have msised that pioint since I don't see any reference to "an older"
recipe of ragu' alla bolognese without tomatoes, apart from a (ROTFL)
wikipedia page which gives not a single reference for what it says. Is this
is your "source" then it's a very very poor job, as I already answered to
sheldon's post, and moreover you're ridiculously contradicting yourself
since you yourself posted this just yesterday: "The first known reference to
ragu as a pasta sauce
dates to the very late 18th century"
Now please bring that nonsense about an older recipe where it belongs: not
on a cooking newsgroup

> I asked you where you get yours from, no answer?

From your same post: "The first known reference to ragu as a pasta sauce
dates to the very late 18th century". You succeeded in getting spanked by
what's in your own posts, LOL

On May 15, 12:26*am, "ViLco" > wrote:
> gtr wrote:
> >> I don't see sarcasm in someone quoting a load of BS
> > You asked me where my data came from I told you.
>
> I must have msised that pioint since I don't see any reference to "an older"
> recipe of ragu' alla bolognese without tomatoes, apart from a (ROTFL)
> wikipedia page which gives not a single reference for what it says. Is this
> is your "source" then it's a very very poor job, as I already answered to
> sheldon's post, and moreover you're ridiculously contradicting yourself
> since you yourself posted this just yesterday: "The first known reference to
> ragu as a pasta sauce
> dates to the very late 18th century"
> Now please bring that nonsense about an older recipe where it belongs: not
> on a cooking newsgroup
>
> > I asked you where you get yours from, no answer?
>
> From your same post: "The first known reference to ragu as a pasta sauce
> dates to the very late 18th century". You succeeded in getting spanked by
> what's in your own posts, LOL

He's talking about this recipe from 1891, which says nothing of ragu:

http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Scienz...alla_bolognese

On 2012-05-15 07:19:26 +0000, ViLco said:

>> My point was that the oldest known recipe does not include tomatoes.
>
> Then find it, come on, or did you find only Sheldon's link where
> there's not a single reference to backup the BS it displays? Then
> again, it to you that's a "soruce" then your idea of "source" is IMHO
> very superficial

If you could drain some of the bile out of your rants they would make
more sense. Maybe.

Wiki's reference to the first printed recipe is my source. You haven't
provided any. Which should I go with: A wiki reference or you, "what
somebody said on usenet"? I'll go with the former. Again, if you'd
site a source that counters it, a recipe from the same period or
earlier that insists tomatoes are critical to Bolognese sauce, I'd
consider it. Until then I have no reason to doubt it.

Pounding the table doesn't convince me. I have no personal investment
in it either way. Does "authentic" Bolognese sauce have tomatoes or
not? "Authentic" is not a fixed point in space or culture, so that's
irrelevent. "Traditional" certainly makes sense since it refers more
to time and place. I don't care either way. You're the only one that
I know that is clawing their eyes and shrieking about a tomato.

>> When tomatoes arrived in Italy, or any other ingredient not present in
>> the sauce, never really entered my consideration.
>
> You yourself posted a reference to ragu' dating tu just the end of 18th
> century, when tomato was already in use in all of Italy, so why do you
> continue to pretend there's an older recipe?

I'm not pretending anything. Among the things I didn't say, including
when tomatoes came to Italy, is when the recipe first began. I only
referenced the oldest purported written reference to a recipe. It's an
assumption on my part that it wasn't invented at that time in that
recipe. But if you think it was invented then, that's an intersting
view.

> Try to find an agreement with yourself before spreading more BS on the
> matter, since you're obviously in serious contradiction with yourself.

You seem to be arguing almost exclusively with things I didn't say. And
still haven't referenced any material to bolster the idea you evade:
When tomatoes first appeared in a recipe for Bolognese sauce.