So, can you list all the types of wines? Red and White for sure but is
there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
alphabetical? I know I will like merlot because I associate it with
sweet. I know I liked a Johannisberg Riesling because someone served it
to me and I liked it. I know I don't like dark red to drink but added to
a T-day sausage stuffing its great. I don't like really dry white
because it isn't sweet enough. I absolutely hated cheap sangria. I would
like to have a scale to judge by for wines I haven't tried as to how
they compare to the one below and the one above on a list? For
example-are there different Rieslings? Sometimes the bottle says
Johannisberg and sometimes it doesnt. Are some wines a mix of wines or
are they all purely related to the kinds of grapes? what kinds of grapes
are wine made from? grape juice is ?

ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
to try that because I usually don't like champagne. One Christmas we had
a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled hours later that it still
had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.

your tastebuds are only the scale that matters, Lee
"z z" > wrote in message
...
> So, can you list all the types of wines? Red and White for sure but is
> there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
> alphabetical? I know I will like merlot because I associate it with
> sweet. I know I liked a Johannisberg Riesling because someone served it
> to me and I liked it. I know I don't like dark red to drink but added to
> a T-day sausage stuffing its great. I don't like really dry white
> because it isn't sweet enough. I absolutely hated cheap sangria. I would
> like to have a scale to judge by for wines I haven't tried as to how
> they compare to the one below and the one above on a list? For
> example-are there different Rieslings? Sometimes the bottle says
> Johannisberg and sometimes it doesnt. Are some wines a mix of wines or
> are they all purely related to the kinds of grapes? what kinds of grapes
> are wine made from? grape juice is ?
>
> ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
> to try that because I usually don't like champagne. One Christmas we had
> a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled hours later that it still
> had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.
>

On 15 Mag, 03:33, (z z) wrote:
> So, can you list all the types of wines? Red and White for sure but is
> there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
> alphabetical? I know I will like merlot because I associate it with
> sweet. I know I liked a Johannisberg Riesling because someone served it
> to me and I liked it. I know I don't like dark red to drink but added to
> a T-day sausage stuffing its great. I don't like really dry white
> because it isn't sweet enough. I absolutely hated cheap sangria. I would
> like to have a scale to judge by for wines I haven't tried as to how
> they compare to the one below and the one above on a list? For
> example-are there different Rieslings? Sometimes the bottle says
> Johannisberg and sometimes it doesnt. Are some wines a mix of wines or
> are they all purely related to the kinds of grapes? what kinds of grapes
> are wine made from? grape juice is ?
>
> ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
> to try that because I usually don't like champagne. One Christmas we had
> a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled hours later that it still
> had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.

Do you like rosè wine?
cheers
Pandora

You shouldn't be drinking wine at age 10 anyway. Especially with an IQ
to match.

-- Larry

On 5/14/12 9:33 PM, z z wrote:
> So, can you list all the types of wines? Red and White for sure but is
> there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
> alphabetical? I know I will like merlot because I associate it with
> sweet. I know I liked a Johannisberg Riesling because someone served it
> to me and I liked it. I know I don't like dark red to drink but added to
> a T-day sausage stuffing its great. I don't like really dry white
> because it isn't sweet enough. I absolutely hated cheap sangria. I would
> like to have a scale to judge by for wines I haven't tried as to how
> they compare to the one below and the one above on a list? For
> example-are there different Rieslings? Sometimes the bottle says
> Johannisberg and sometimes it doesnt. Are some wines a mix of wines or
> are they all purely related to the kinds of grapes? what kinds of grapes
> are wine made from? grape juice is ?
>
> ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
> to try that because I usually don't like champagne. One Christmas we had
> a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled hours later that it still
> had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.
>

On 2012-05-15 01:33:02 +0000, z z said:

> So, can you list all the types of wines? Red and White for sure but is
> there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
> alphabetical?

There's a lot of wines out there. Wine for Dummies or any such volume
will give you some lists that will be helpful. You can also use
wikipedia to look at specificaly French, Italian, German or Californian
wines. There's also allaboutwine.com and probably scores of other sites
you could read.

> I know I will like merlot because I associate it with sweet.

That's what's fun about wine: I like merlot because it isn't sweet.

> I know I liked a Johannisberg Riesling because someone served it
> to me and I liked it. I know I don't like dark red to drink but added to
> a T-day sausage stuffing its great.

Merlot is a dark red wine.

> I don't like really dry white because it isn't sweet enough.

Many Reislings, a white wine, are dry. There are all kinds of dry white
wines, there's probably a number you'd enjoy.

> I absolutely hated cheap sangria.

It's fruit punch to which you add wine. I assume it's not the
"cheapness" but the composition you didn't like. I've had a number of
home-made sangria's that were great for drinking on a patio in
summertime. They were made from cheap wine. I've also had some
home-made that wasn't so good.

> I would like to have a scale to judge by for wines I haven't tried as
> to how they compare to the one below and the one above on a list? For
> example-are there different Rieslings?

A lot of variety the http://wine.about.com/od/whitewines/g/Rieslings.htm

> Sometimes the bottle says Johannisberg and sometimes it doesnt. Are
> some wines a mix of wines or are they all purely related to the kinds
> of grapes? what kinds of grapes are wine made from?

Yes wine comes from different places. Yes some wines are blends.
There are many kinds of grapes from which wines are mad. Lots and lots.

> grape juice is ?

If you're talking about bottled American non-alcoholic (like Welch's),
I think Concord grapes were the old standard. But even they are making
different grape juices now.

> ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
> to try that because I usually don't like champagne.

Nor I. But to each their own tastes, if you want to add tomato juice or
beef stock to your champagne--go for it. There's no laws, even though
others may think it disgusting. You may classify everyone who doesn't
like what you like as snobs, though, and go on about your business with
a chip on your shoulder grossing about other people while you drink
just what you like. It can become a talent unto itself!

I got an eau de vie that was extremely loud and had too much alcoholic
bite. I mixed it with a good vermouth (Noilly Pratt), put it on ice
with a slice of lemon and it was really good. Most booze seems good
after you get through half the drink. This, unless you're a purist, and
then the conceptual aspects can override what your tastebuds actually
tell you. If that happens you can call yourself a snob and bitch about
what you think. That might be considered neurotic, but again, halfway
through the drink, who cares?

> One Christmas we had a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled
> hours later that it still had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it
> though.

If you don't like a certain quality that a wine produces then a more
expensive version of it probably won't change things. I thought I
didn't like white wines until I began drinking them with food. Now I
like them a lot, but still all by themselves they are not my first
choice. I prefer them with grub.

Il 15/05/2012 03:33, z z ha scritto:

> So, can you list all the types of wines?Red and White for sure but is
> there a neat organized list that is in order by color or sweetness or
> alphabetical?
[...]
> Are some wines a mix of wines or
> are they all purely related to the kinds of grapes? what kinds
> of grapes are wine made from? grape juice is ?

Since this would take eons to answer, what about reading a wine atlas?
It would teach you a lot and usually they don't require too much
reading, with their lots of maps and pictures. A nice one I bougth 6 or
7 years ago was "L'universo del vino" ("Wine universe") by Catarina
Hiort af Ornas, her books have been translated many times and this one
is a very good reading to build up a knownledge of grapes and the wines
which they give and their places.
--
Vilco
And the Family Stone
Scartati 'sta banana

On 15/05/2012 2:25 PM, gtr wrote:

>> ps never heard of adding sugar (orange juice yes) to champagne-will have
>> to try that because I usually don't like champagne.
>
> Nor I. But to each their own tastes, if you want to add tomato juice or
> beef stock to your champagne--go for it. There's no laws, even though
> others may think it disgusting. You may classify everyone who doesn't
> like what you like as snobs, though, and go on about your business with
> a chip on your shoulder grossing about other people while you drink just
> what you like. It can become a talent unto itself!

I have had champagne cocktails and mimosas. They are okay, but a hell
of a waste of good champagne. I see no point in using real champagne if
you are going to mix it with something overpowering. It is IMO a waste.

If you want to do it, use a cheap sparkling wine
FWIW I picked up a couple bottles of Hungarian "champagne. We recently
read a news paper food and drink column where a bunch of party-goers
blind tasted a variety of champagnes and champagne style sparking wine,
and it was ranked above some of the much more expensive French champagnes.





>
> I got an eau de vie that was extremely loud and had too much alcoholic
> bite. I mixed it with a good vermouth (Noilly Pratt), put it on ice with
> a slice of lemon and it was really good. Most booze seems good after you
> get through half the drink. This, unless you're a purist, and then the
> conceptual aspects can override what your tastebuds actually tell you.
> If that happens you can call yourself a snob and bitch about what you
> think. That might be considered neurotic, but again, halfway through the
> drink, who cares?

Vermouth makes a good mixer in some liquors. Canadian Rye is my least
favourite type of whisky but the one I drink the most of because I add
sweet vermouth to it to make Manhattans.

>
>> One Christmas we had a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled
>> hours later that it still had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.
>
> If you don't like a certain quality that a wine produces then a more
> expensive version of it probably won't change things. I thought I didn't
> like white wines until I began drinking them with food. Now I like them
> a lot, but still all by themselves they are not my first choice. I
> prefer them with grub.


Then there are people like my brother and his wife. When they come over
I have to go out and get much cheaper crappier wine than I would ever
get for myself. They prefer it. No point in wasting good wine on them
when they will let you know they dislike it.

On 2012-05-15 21:43:25 +0000, Dave Smith said:

> I have had champagne cocktails and mimosas. They are okay, but a hell
> of a waste of good champagne. I see no point in using real champagne if
> you are going to mix it with something overpowering. It is IMO a waste.

I absolutely agree, you'd think you could just put vodka for the buzz
factor and save some money. Use a carbonated beverge if they like. I
think of sushi zealots who love to get almost any kind of fish, but
it's most inscrutable with mild white fish, then lard with wasabi: It
could be be almost anything! After so very many years, I rarely use
wasabi or even soy on a most fish, bumping it lightly into a slice of
lemon instead.

Each to their own. Maybe texture is all they care about with halibut.

> If you want to do it, use a cheap sparkling wine
> FWIW I picked up a couple bottles of Hungarian "champagne. We recently
> read a news paper food and drink column where a bunch of party-goers
> blind tasted a variety of champagnes and champagne style sparking wine,
> and it was ranked above some of the much more expensive French
> champagnes.

What tastes good tastes good.

> Vermouth makes a good mixer in some liquors. Canadian Rye is my least
> favourite type of whisky but the one I drink the most of because I add
> sweet vermouth to it to make Manhattans.

For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
just bitter and flat tasting.

>>> One Christmas we had a really expensive bottle of it and I marveled
>>> hours later that it still had bubbles rising-can't say I liked it though.
>>
>> If you don't like a certain quality that a wine produces then a more
>> expensive version of it probably won't change things. I thought I didn't
>> like white wines until I began drinking them with food. Now I like them
>> a lot, but still all by themselves they are not my first choice. I
>> prefer them with grub.
>
> Then there are people like my brother and his wife. When they come over
> I have to go out and get much cheaper crappier wine than I would ever
> get for myself. They prefer it. No point in wasting good wine on them
> when they will let you know they dislike it.

I have two strata of wines on hand, the "who cares" bottles of red
which most of my friends like, and none are rotgut. I'm glad to drink
it with pasta or something. And then there are the (somewhat) more
expensive bottles of French wines that I'm puzzling over and exploring.
They never rarely comment on anything they're drinking so why bother
with that.

I googled a bit found the following chart.

Dry to Sweet Reds:
Zinfandel
Cabernet Sauvignon
Sangiovese
Shiraz/Syrah
Merlot
Pinot Noir
Sweet Sherry
Port

Dry to Sweet Whites:
Chardonnay
Sauvignon Blanc
[6 categories of Brut listed here??]
Champagne
Sparkling Wine
Rose
Pinot Gris
Riesling
White Zinfandel (gonna try next)

It also ranked reds according to strong vs low tannins(?) and whites
according to fruity crisp vs strong intensity.

On 2012-05-16 02:36:59 +0000, z z said:

> I googled a bit found the following chart.
>
> Dry to Sweet Reds:
> Zinfandel
> Cabernet Sauvignon
> Sangiovese
> Shiraz/Syrah
> Merlot
> Pinot Noir

None of the above are inherently sweet. I think they are all
categorically dry. These two are fortified wine:

> Sweet Sherry
> Port



> Dry to Sweet Whites:
> Chardonnay
> Sauvignon Blanc
> [6 categories of Brut listed here??]
> Champagne
> Sparkling Wine
> Rose
> Pinot Gris

Never had a sweet pino gris.

> Riesling

Riesling come generaly com in two varieties, dry and sweet.

> White Zinfandel (gonna try next)
>
> It also ranked reds according to strong vs low tannins(?) and whites
> according to fruity crisp vs strong intensity.

gtr wrote:

> For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
> vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
> you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
> just bitter and flat tasting.

A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 09:58:19 +0200, "ViLco" > wrote:

> gtr wrote:
>
> > For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
> > vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
> > you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
> > just bitter and flat tasting.
>
> A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.
>
>
If it's going to make a Manhattan or a Martini, Gallo is good enough
and Noilly Prat is a waste of money. If it's an aperitif, I want
Lillet.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 21:36:59 -0500, (z z) wrote:

> I googled a bit found the following chart.
>
> Dry to Sweet Reds:
> Zinfandel
> Cabernet Sauvignon
> Sangiovese
> Shiraz/Syrah
> Merlot
> Pinot Noir
> Sweet Sherry
> Port
>
> Dry to Sweet Whites:
> Chardonnay
> Sauvignon Blanc
> [6 categories of Brut listed here??]
> Champagne
> Sparkling Wine
> Rose
> Pinot Gris
> Riesling
> White Zinfandel (gonna try next)
>
> It also ranked reds according to strong vs low tannins(?) and whites
> according to fruity crisp vs strong intensity.

I disagree with those rankings.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 2012-05-16 07:58:19 +0000, ViLco said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>> For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
>> vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
>> you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
>> just bitter and flat tasting.
>
> A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.

I prefer the dry, but like them both. Now I'm starting to use Dolin a
lot now. I use Lillet too, though some quibble about whether it's a
vermouth, and then we get into long tedious conversations regarding
what is a vermouth and what isn't.

For the record the "Extra Dry" Dolin is just as bad as the Marini & Rossi.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:15:32 -0700, gtr > wrote:

> On 2012-05-16 07:58:19 +0000, ViLco said:
>
> > gtr wrote:
> >
> >> For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
> >> vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
> >> you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
> >> just bitter and flat tasting.
> >
> > A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.
>
> I prefer the dry, but like them both. Now I'm starting to use Dolin a
> lot now. I use Lillet too, though some quibble about whether it's a
> vermouth, and then we get into long tedious conversations regarding
> what is a vermouth and what isn't.
>
> For the record the "Extra Dry" Dolin is just as bad as the Marini & Rossi.

The worst part about Martini & Rossi is traveling and thirsting for a
decent martini... I ask if they make martinis and they proudly pull
out of bottle of Martini & Rossi. Say what? Where's the gin?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 2012-05-16 16:52:05 +0000, sf said:

> On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:15:32 -0700, gtr > wrote:
>
>> On 2012-05-16 07:58:19 +0000, ViLco said:
>>
>>> gtr wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a number of years I've been in endless experiments with many
>>>> vermouths, which no longer includes Martini & Rossi extra dry--the one
>>>> you find every where. Actually I don't like anybody's "extra dry",
>>>> just bitter and flat tasting.
>>>
>>> A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.
>>
>> I prefer the dry, but like them both. Now I'm starting to use Dolin a
>> lot now. I use Lillet too, though some quibble about whether it's a
>> vermouth, and then we get into long tedious conversations regarding
>> what is a vermouth and what isn't.
>>
>> For the record the "Extra Dry" Dolin is just as bad as the Marini & Rossi.
>
> The worst part about Martini & Rossi is traveling and thirsting for a
> decent martini... I ask if they make martinis and they proudly pull
> out of bottle of Martini & Rossi. Say what? Where's the gin?

You mean in Europe I suppose. Maybe Canada? Yeah, over there "martini"
means a vermouth and they ask blanc or rouge. I endlessly tried to get
a American-style martini in France the last couple of years and it was
a humorous quest.

I began saying "gin martini", or "martini gin". After establishing
blanc they would bring a 50/50 martini/gin combination with a slice of
lemon. Frequently they would ask if I wanted two ice cubes or three. I
suppose it is a serious consideration to them.

Only when I went to a conspicuous hotel like Hotel de Crillon did I
manage to get a bona-fide martini. They are probably available at
American ex-pat places but I never went there.

After doing this twice for three weeks at a time, north to south in
France, I have to say I came back a Martini & Rossi Blanc fan and drink
it with a slice of lemon at home! I'm converted! Though once back I
have not found a single bar that has Martini & Rossi, dry or sweet,
available. Only the bitter "extra dry" which they use to spoil their
gin.

In fairness, even though I now love M&R blanc, it's not the best choice
for a gin martini, it's too sweet really. For me it's Noilly Prat or
Dolin.

In article >, ViLco > wrote:

>A very good vermouth is the french Noilly Prat, expecially the red.

I agree, the red Noilly Prat is the gold standard for Manhattans,
whereas the white is the gold standard for martinis (assuming you
want a martini that is other than completely dry).

Steve

On 2012-05-16 19:23:51 +0000, Dave Smith said:

> I often see Reislings labelled as dry or off dry. The liquor store here
> has the sweentness noted on the product shelf tag.

I haven't seen it on the bottle, the it is likely on the English
description on the back. I do read the shelf tags though at such as
Total Wine.

> They used to have the sweetness value on the tag. I haven't looked at
> them for a while, but the LBCO online product lists shows indicates
> sweetness.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 10:29:58 -0700, gtr > wrote:

> On 2012-05-16 16:52:05 +0000, sf said:
>
> > On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:15:32 -0700, gtr > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> For the record the "Extra Dry" Dolin is just as bad as the Marini & Rossi.
> >
> > The worst part about Martini & Rossi is traveling and thirsting for a
> > decent martini... I ask if they make martinis and they proudly pull
> > out of bottle of Martini & Rossi. Say what? Where's the gin?
>
> You mean in Europe I suppose.

Yes, China too. My one and only gin martini was free there because I
demonstrated how to make an American style martini to the bar manager.

> Maybe Canada?

I don't remember having a problem with that in Canada, but Vancouver
is Washington state-North, so I wouldn't and I drank wine in Quebec
(Montreal/Quebec City). Either that or I was in Manhattan mode when I
was there.

> Yeah, over there "martini"
> means a vermouth and they ask blanc or rouge. I endlessly tried to get
> a American-style martini in France the last couple of years and it was
> a humorous quest.
>
> I began saying "gin martini", or "martini gin". After establishing
> blanc they would bring a 50/50 martini/gin combination with a slice of
> lemon. Frequently they would ask if I wanted two ice cubes or three. I
> suppose it is a serious consideration to them.

They know Americans have a love affair with ice cubes and ice cold
drinks.
>
> Only when I went to a conspicuous hotel like Hotel de Crillon did I
> manage to get a bona-fide martini. They are probably available at
> American ex-pat places but I never went there.

Okay, then I'm not the only one who felt like I was on a snipe hunt.
What's so hard about making a simple American style martini anyway?
>
> After doing this twice for three weeks at a time, north to south in
> France, I have to say I came back a Martini & Rossi Blanc fan and drink
> it with a slice of lemon at home! I'm converted! Though once back I
> have not found a single bar that has Martini & Rossi, dry or sweet,
> available. Only the bitter "extra dry" which they use to spoil their
> gin.
>
> In fairness, even though I now love M&R blanc, it's not the best choice
> for a gin martini, it's too sweet really. For me it's Noilly Prat or
> Dolin.

I like Noilly Prat in a gin martini, must look for Dolin (but not
extra-dry). That's a new brand for me.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 2012-05-17 17:44:44 +0000, sf said:

>>> The worst part about Martini & Rossi is traveling and thirsting for a
>>> decent martini... I ask if they make martinis and they proudly pull
>>> out of bottle of Martini & Rossi. Say what? Where's the gin?
>>
>> You mean in Europe I suppose.
>
> Yes, China too. My one and only gin martini was free there because I
> demonstrated how to make an American style martini to the bar manager.

Isn't that a bitch? I've been giving free bartender lessons all over
the globe for years--but mostly here in the USA. Hell, in general most
bartenders are about as into their gig as the crew at the counter at
Taco Bell. And about as sanitary.

>> I began saying "gin martini", or "martini gin". After establishing
>> blanc they would bring a 50/50 martini/gin combination with a slice of
>> lemon. Frequently they would ask if I wanted two ice cubes or three. I
>> suppose it is a serious consideration to them.
>
> They know Americans have a love affair with ice cubes and ice cold
> drinks.

I think there's some cultural thing going on there but I haven't quite
figured it out yet.

>> Only when I went to a conspicuous hotel like Hotel de Crillon did I
>> manage to get a bona-fide martini. They are probably available at
>> American ex-pat places but I never went there.
>
> Okay, then I'm not the only one who felt like I was on a snipe hunt.
> What's so hard about making a simple American style martini anyway?

My guesses:

1) Just too much booze. They like to drink them low and slow.

2) They don't seem to get it with gin, everywhere there has plenty of
rum (or rhum) in all kinds of flavors. I don't think vodka makes the
cut either. And drinking whiskey even seems somewhat efete, only in
the nicer places can I find whiskey.

As such, I don't think an American Martini would be the only problem,
it seems to tough to get almost any kind of significant cocktail.

Eventually I began drinking the "Americano maison". And they actually
do it differently everywhere I went, with white and red vermouth, a
slice of lemon, some gin, some without, some OJ (or facsimile), some
without. And Campari as well, depending. But inebriation-level booze?
No; slow enough that I get sleepy before I get loaded.

>> In fairness, even though I now love M&R blanc, it's not the best choice
>> for a gin martini, it's too sweet really. For me it's Noilly Prat or
>> Dolin.
>
> I like Noilly Prat in a gin martini, must look for Dolin (but not
> extra-dry). That's a new brand for me.

If you like good dry and sweet vermouths, Dolin rocks.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 12:19:05 -0700, gtr > wrote:

> If you like good dry and sweet vermouths, Dolin rocks.

I don't think I have much of a palate for vermouths, but I'm willing
to give it a try. Does it go with all types of gin or one better than
another? I'm back to London style gin (Beefeaters at the moment).
Wondering if a decent bar would have it, so I can try it out there?

You have no idea what a production it was finding a bar that had a
bottle of Plymouth gin. I'm glad I tried it out in a bar though,
because I saved myself the cost of a bottle. It tasted like water -
flavorless. Ugh.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:29:48 +1000, atec77 <"atec77 >
wrote:

>On 18/05/2012 7:21 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 May 2012 12:19:05 -0700, > wrote:
>>
>>> If you like good dry and sweet vermouths, Dolin rocks.
>>
>> I don't think I have much of a palate for vermouths, but I'm willing
>> to give it a try. Does it go with all types of gin or one better than
>> another? I'm back to London style gin (Beefeaters at the moment).
>> Wondering if a decent bar would have it, so I can try it out there?
>>
>> You have no idea what a production it was finding a bar that had a
>> bottle of Plymouth gin. I'm glad I tried it out in a bar though,
>> because I saved myself the cost of a bottle. It tasted like water -
>> flavorless. Ugh.
>>
>You should try a " square gin "
> Berkely or perhaps for a good gin
>http://www.thedrinkshop.com/products...hp?prodid=1801
>
>subtle flavour and with the right mixer excellent

Crystal Palace is a pretty good gin... works fine for gin and tonic
and most mixed drinks, not wonderful for dry 2nis. It's plain stupid
to use any top shelf booze for typical mixed drinks. I like my 2ni
with Boodles British 90.4, but it'd be as dumb to use Boodles for a
gin and tonic as using Chivas Regal Scotch Royal Salute 21 Year Old
Blue for a scotch sour.

On 2012-05-17 21:21:23 +0000, sf said:

> On Thu, 17 May 2012 12:19:05 -0700, gtr > wrote:
>
>> If you like good dry and sweet vermouths, Dolin rocks.
>
> I don't think I have much of a palate for vermouths, but I'm willing
> to give it a try. Does it go with all types of gin or one better than
> another? I'm back to London style gin (Beefeaters at the moment).

The white/dry is a little on the sweeter side so I think that works
better with London dry than it does the more floral gins. I really like
them too: Zuidam, Damrak, Hendricks. I think they work better with
Noilly. But it's a pretty minor distinction.

The wife drinks the red with gin (2/1) and up and has moved from M&R
Rosso to that as her favorite. I like both up. I like Lillet up.
Noilly--only for mixing.

> Wondering if a decent bar would have it, so I can try it out there?

I doubt it. Those slackers don't know what vermouth is for anyway. I
now have exactly three bars ID'd with Noilly Pratt and they are all
"finer" places so I pay for it.

> You have no idea what a production it was finding a bar that had a
> bottle of Plymouth gin. I'm glad I tried it out in a bar though,
> because I saved myself the cost of a bottle. It tasted like water -
> flavorless.

I read an article comparing gins that really gave Plymouth significant
kudos. I've tried it a number of times, but don't get it. It is almost
devoid of personality. It's like Seagram's or something. Maybe those
gins are made for people who think vermouth isn't suppose to be added
to a martini. Hmm, never thought about that.

One bar had the usual suspects (Tanq, Tanq 10, Beefeater's, Bombay,
Bombay Sapphire) and only one "novelty" gin: Martin Miller (which I
call Marty Milner to no humorous response). I drink it 5/1 with Lillet.
I think Miller is a little too floral, but it has slowly become my
favorite combination.

So then they get a bottle of the hippest new you-gotta-try: Nolet. That
stuff is the most candy-coated gin I ever had. I sent it back! I
can't believe I would EVER sent back a martini, but there had to be a
first time. It tasted vaguely like bubble gum.

On 2012-05-17 22:14:48 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:

> It's plain stupid to use any top shelf booze for typical mixed drinks.

Here's why I prefer "stupid":

1) I don't like headaches.
2) I like things to taste good even when they only comprise a mere 80%
of the taste profile.
3) If you can't taste a bad gin in a gin and tonic, you don't make them
the way I do.

I feel the same way about most "mixed" drinks or cocktails. Isn't a
Manhattan or an Old-Fashioned or a sazerac a "mixed drink" in your
estimation? You can't the tell difference between low-dollar well
booze when used in these drinks?

On 2012-05-17 21:21:23 +0000, sf said:

> You have no idea what a production it was finding a bar that had a
> bottle of Plymouth gin. I'm glad I tried it out in a bar though,
> because I saved myself the cost of a bottle. It tasted like water -
> flavorless. Ugh.

Here's the article I referred to where Plymouth wins. This was my
turning point with the martini and when it became my primary drink.
Eventually my lab-work made theirs look aimless:

http://tinyurl.com/caw63e9

Despite their conclusion on Plymouth, it was a great intro for me.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 16:30:26 -0700, gtr > wrote:

>On 2012-05-17 22:14:48 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:
>
>> It's plain stupid to use any top shelf booze for typical mixed drinks.
>
>Here's why I prefer "stupid":
>
>1) I don't like headaches.
>2) I like things to taste good even when they only comprise a mere 80%
>of the taste profile.
>3) If you can't taste a bad gin in a gin and tonic, you don't make them
>the way I do.

I agree with gtr on this one.
>
>I feel the same way about most "mixed" drinks or cocktails. Isn't a
>Manhattan or an Old-Fashioned or a sazerac a "mixed drink" in your
>estimation? You can't the tell difference between low-dollar well
>booze when used in these drinks?

I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
doesn't pay to buy decent booze.

Jim

On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:39:00 -0400, Jim Elbrecht >
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 May 2012 16:30:26 -0700, gtr > wrote:
>
>>On 2012-05-17 22:14:48 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:
>>
>>> It's plain stupid to use any top shelf booze for typical mixed drinks.
>>
>>Here's why I prefer "stupid":
>>
>>1) I don't like headaches.
>>2) I like things to taste good even when they only comprise a mere 80%
>>of the taste profile.
>>3) If you can't taste a bad gin in a gin and tonic, you don't make them
>>the way I do.
>
>I agree with gtr on this one.
>>
>>I feel the same way about most "mixed" drinks or cocktails. Isn't a
>>Manhattan or an Old-Fashioned or a sazerac a "mixed drink" in your
>>estimation? You can't the tell difference between low-dollar well
>>booze when used in these drinks?
>
>I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
>like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
>doesn't pay to buy decent booze.
>
>Jim

I didn't say all mixed drinks, there are exceptions, 2nis and
Manhattans are primarily consumed as they come from the bottle, they
are barely mixed drinks... but if top shelf booze is blended with any
appreciable quantity of mixer you cannot tell which booze brand. I
like an occasional rum and coke, but unless one sees the rum bottle
there is no way to know which rum was used anymore than one can tell
which rum was used to lace a fruit cake.

Yoose idiots haven't a clue... the alcohol is chemically precisely the
same in all booze, mostly the higher price of top shelf is from the
fancy schmancy packaging and advertising. The flavoring ingredients
are more costly (pennies) but those don't give people headaches or
hangovers, There is no more chance of a headache from a 7&7 with
Seagram's Seven or a 7&7 with Crown Royal. People have
hangovers/headaches from over indulging is all. Next yoose pinheads
will blame the 7Up. Some folks will feel rotten from just one drink
regardless which booze, it's strictly their physiology... yoose two
boys shouldn't drink booze... stick with grape Nehi.

On 2012-05-18 11:39:00 +0000, Jim Elbrecht said:

> I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
> like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
> doesn't pay to buy decent booze.

I agree. And I haven't had a 3rd drink in many years. My limit is a
single cocktail and then a glass of wine, with dinner. Maybe a brandy
after but that's a rarity.

On 2012-05-18 11:54:04 +0000, Jim Elbrecht said:

> [I don't use them in martinis--but I use them]
> Dad used an olive-- and there was a special kind he searched for, but
> the name escapes me.

I always get a twist when in a bar, I always use an olive or a cocktail
onion (more rarely) at home. I've tried lots of green, usually
pimento-stuffed olives but have never reached satori with that yet. I
don't like jumbo olives, pitted olives, vermouth-soaked olives. Some I
get are a little mushy, others too crunchy. It doesn't really modify
the drink much so it's not been a big concern yet.

> He also dipped the glass stir rod in Absinthe when we were at our
> summer place where there was a bottle purchased before it was banned.

I went through a long phase of trying two drops of various bitters.
Some ancient recipes used bitters and it was a long and slow process
before I abandoned the hunt. I'm not a purist at all, but I like my
variations explicit and intentional so I can adjust my thinking
directly. Actually the absinthe, particularly in such a small amount
sounds very interesting, and a nice touch for a summer day.

I just remembered that at home I regularly add exactly two drops of Fey
Brother's. Lemon Bitters.

>> That's enough info to navigate the *bartender* because that's really
>> the quest of martini drinkers. A glass of chilled straight gin sucks
>> as far as I'm concerned, and I'm primarily a gin drinker.
>
> I like mine with a splash of grapefruit juice.

I use to use two drops of Fee's Grapefruit bitters. On occasion of no
vermouth in a bar I've used a splash of campari.

On 2012-05-18 13:33:09 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:

> I like an occasional rum and coke, but unless one sees the rum bottle
> there is no way to know which rum was used...

It's funny how since you can't tell, you're adamant no one can tell.
All Californians are fake, all Italians are thieves. What a simple
world you live in! Everything has been worked out; it's all so very
orderly and two-dimensional.

I can certainly tell the difference between a number of rums when mixed
with coke. Maybe you just flavor the coke with a little splash of rum.
Certainly if all you drink is cheap rum there couldn't be any
significant the difference. Rum seems to be one of those spirits that's
going through an uptick in innovation these days. Last year in Lyon I
encountered a number of bistros that had infused rums in big 5-gallon
glass jugs with dippers that tasted quite distinctive. But of course
adding coke to those--quelle horreurs!

> ...the alcohol is chemically precisely the same in all booze, mostly
> the higher price of top shelf is from the fancy schmancy packaging and
> advertising.

Again with the cut-and-paste wine snob mantra: If your meat-and-potatos
palate can't find a difference between good and bad booze that's fine.
To use yourself as a model for what everybody else OUGHT to think is so
very weak.

The long list of things about which you know nothing apparently
includes packaging and advertising costs for spirits. The most
expensive booze doesn't seem to have any mainstream advertising at all
that I see. How dramatically expensive is an embossed label versus
non-embossed?

What a lot of noise you make when your premise is so simple: Expensive
is bad, cheap is good. Okay, now we know how you feel about spending
money; we can gauge your concept of value by reading any price sticker.

> The flavoring ingredients are more costly (pennies) but those don't
> give people headaches or hangovers,

I'm of the belief that the way they can make booze cheaper is by
spending less time on every ounce, repeated filtering being primary.
Maybe that's juju, but I think the more you filter spirits, the less
the hangover possibilities. Also the less sugar in your drink, however
it got there; whether booze or the mixer.

> There is no more chance of a headache from a 7&7 with
> Seagram's Seven or a 7&7 with Crown Royal. People have
> hangovers/headaches from over indulging is all.

You clearly have some gaps in your medical understanding, but it's your
generalizations about "people" that underscore your big deficits. Can
you tap dance? No? Then either nobody can *really* tap dance or
tap-dancing is an empty worthless pursuit for the stupid and
misinformed.

I think I've broken the one-digit combination on your brain lock.

sf wrote:
>
>Either that or I was in Manhattan mode when I was there.

Manhattan - The martini for folks who like whiskey but not gin. Good
stuff Manhattans. ;^)

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
> I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
> like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
> doesn't pay to buy decent booze.
>
> Jim

I know a few ppl that actually do that.....use the good stuff for the first
drink or 2, then switch to the cheap stuff.

On 2012-05-18 19:53:01 +0000, Gary said:

> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>
>> I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
>> like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
>> doesn't pay to buy decent booze.
>>
>> Jim
>
> I know a few ppl that actually do that.....use the good stuff for the first
> drink or 2, then switch to the cheap stuff.

After the 2nd, I begin straining Sterno.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 15:53:01 -0400, Gary > wrote:

>Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>
>> I think I might say; 'after the 3rd drink you can use any swill you
>> like'. If drinks 4-nnn make up the majority of your drinks then it
>> doesn't pay to buy decent booze.
>>
>> Jim
>
>I know a few ppl that actually do that.....use the good stuff for the first
>drink or 2, then switch to the cheap stuff.


Maybe it is worth it if you really drink a lot, but the cost
difference is usually about 25¢ a drink difference.

In my case, I'd probably save a buck a year. One drink a few nights a
week, two drinks maybe once a month, can't remember having more than
that in ages. Life is too short for cheap booze.