Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.

Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
top).

Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
Thanks.

On May 30, 12:10*pm, "D. T. Green" > wrote:
>
> Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
> hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
> Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
> the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
> top).
>
> Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
> Thanks.

>
>
Recipe?

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:

> Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
> hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
Not an expert bread baker here, so I don't know bread terms and I'm
always looking for a crispier crust, so I don't have that too hard
problem... but I think you could use milk instead of water in your
recipe and brush it with butter just before you bake it to make a
softer crust. As far as the concave looks, you let it rise too long -
so it over inflated and "popped" on you. BTDT. Keep a better eye on
it next time and put it into the oven just before you think it has
reached its optimal rise because it keeps rising in the oven. Tastes
just fine, looks like H-E-double hockey sticks.

> Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
> the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
> top).

The heat source might not be as reliable and steady as you think it
is. It could boil down to a thermostat problem which requires a
qualified technician to diagnose and fix.
>
> Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
> Thanks.
>


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:

>Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
>hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
>Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
>the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
>top).
>
>Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
>Thanks.
>

The dough may have been over proofed, so instead of giving you oven
spring, it collapsed while baking.

If you suspect this might be the case, the next time, do not use the
clock for your proofing, but instead, examine the dough itself for
signs of a full and adequate proof...when you poke it gently, it will
spring back somewhat. If your finger indentation remains, the loaf is
over proofed.

It takes some patience and practice to learn this, and the obvious
signs can vary somewhat with the type of bread flours and hydration of
your doughs. There is no one way to tell across all the bread recipe
variables.

You can practice your poking skills on the first/bulk proof, too, just
to get used to playing around with the feel and tension and texture of
your dough.

As a rough guide - If you recipe calls for 1 hour of a second proof,
start looking and gently poking at the half hour mark, then every 15
minutes after that.

Boron

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:

>Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
>hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
>Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
>the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
>top).
>
>Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
>Thanks.
>
The bread dough was over proofed. You let the second rise go too
long. You must learn to check the proof by touching and looking
instead of the clock. Beware, the proofing time will vary because of
ambient temperature, the temperature of the dough when you finished
kneading it, etc. So use your eyes and hands. It is a good idea to
start the oven preheating as soon as you finish shaping the dough,
that way you will be ready to bake whenever the dough is ready.
Janet US

"D. T. Green" wrote:
>
> Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
> hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.

I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.

Gary

Gary wrote:

> I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
> hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
> a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.

You could also spritz the oven with water during baking.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 14:25:32 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:
>
>>Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
>>hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>>
>>Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
>>the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
>>top).
>>
>>Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
>>Thanks.
>>
>The bread dough was over proofed. You let the second rise go too
>long. You must learn to check the proof by touching and looking
>instead of the clock. Beware, the proofing time will vary because of
>ambient temperature, the temperature of the dough when you finished
>kneading it, etc. So use your eyes and hands. It is a good idea to
>start the oven preheating as soon as you finish shaping the dough,
>that way you will be ready to bake whenever the dough is ready.
>Janet US


We are the Dough Sisters and I endorse this post.

Boron

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:21:12 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 May 2012 14:25:32 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:
>>
>>>Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
>>>hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>>>
>>>Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
>>>the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
>>>top).
>>>
>>>Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>The bread dough was over proofed. You let the second rise go too
>>long. You must learn to check the proof by touching and looking
>>instead of the clock. Beware, the proofing time will vary because of
>>ambient temperature, the temperature of the dough when you finished
>>kneading it, etc. So use your eyes and hands. It is a good idea to
>>start the oven preheating as soon as you finish shaping the dough,
>>that way you will be ready to bake whenever the dough is ready.
>>Janet US
>
>
>We are the Dough Sisters and I endorse this post.
>
>Boron
That's catchy. . .I can almost hear some Theme Song developing. :O))
Janet US

On May 30, 1:14*pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
>
> > wrote:
> >Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
> >hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
> >Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
> >the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
> >top).
>
> >Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
> >Thanks.
>
> The dough may have been over proofed, so instead of giving you oven
> spring, it collapsed while baking.
>
> If you suspect this might be the case, the next time, do not use the
> clock for your proofing, but instead, examine the dough itself for
> signs of a full and adequate proof...when you poke it gently, it will
> spring back somewhat. If your finger indentation remains, the loaf is
> over proofed.
>
> It takes some patience and practice to learn this, and the obvious
> signs can vary somewhat with the type of bread flours and hydration of
> your doughs. There is no one way to tell across all the bread recipe
> variables.
>
> You can practice your poking skills on the first/bulk proof, too, just
> to get used to playing around with the feel and tension and texture of
> your dough.
>
> As a rough guide - If you recipe calls for 1 hour of a second proof,
> start looking and gently poking at the half hour mark, then every 15
> minutes after that.
>
> Boron

Good info!

On 5/30/2012 10:14 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> The dough may have been over proofed, so instead of giving you oven
> spring, it collapsed while baking.
>
> If you suspect this might be the case, the next time, do not use the
> clock for your proofing, but instead, examine the dough itself for
> signs of a full and adequate proof...when you poke it gently, it will
> spring back somewhat. If your finger indentation remains, the loaf is
> over proofed.
>
> It takes some patience and practice to learn this, and the obvious
> signs can vary somewhat with the type of bread flours and hydration of
> your doughs. There is no one way to tell across all the bread recipe
> variables.
>
> You can practice your poking skills on the first/bulk proof, too, just
> to get used to playing around with the feel and tension and texture of
> your dough.
>
> As a rough guide - If you recipe calls for 1 hour of a second proof,
> start looking and gently poking at the half hour mark, then every 15
> minutes after that.
>
> Boron


Thanks for the info. I did not know you could over-proof bread. Now I
know...

On Wed, 30 May 2012 13:57:42 -1000, dsi1 >
wrote:

> Thanks for the info. I did not know you could over-proof bread. Now I
> know...

It's too cold here for bread to rise in a decent amount of time at
room temperature, so I always use the oven.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 5/30/2012 5:17 PM, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2012 13:57:42 -1000, >
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info. I did not know you could over-proof bread. Now I
>> know...
>
> It's too cold here for bread to rise in a decent amount of time at
> room temperature, so I always use the oven.
>

I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
is in the oven as we speak.

On 5/31/2012 12:26 AM, dsi1 wrote:

> I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
> occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
> is in the oven as we speak.

My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?

On 5/30/2012 6:40 PM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 5/31/2012 12:26 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>
>> I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
>> occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
>> is in the oven as we speak.
>
> My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
> digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?
>

My guess is that the oven should be around 100 degrees F and that your
new oven has a proofing mode. I used to turn my oven on for a few
minutes until it got not-too-hot and not-too-cool. Most times I'd just
use room temperature. The proofing mode is a good and useful feature.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 23:59:38 -1000, dsi1
> wrote:

>On 5/30/2012 6:40 PM, Cheryl wrote:
>> On 5/31/2012 12:26 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>
>>> I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
>>> occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
>>> is in the oven as we speak.
>>
>> My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
>> digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?
>>
>
>My guess is that the oven should be around 100 degrees F and that your
>new oven has a proofing mode. I used to turn my oven on for a few
>minutes until it got not-too-hot and not-too-cool. Most times I'd just
>use room temperature. The proofing mode is a good and useful feature.


The long, cooler rises make for deeper flavor. There is no need to
make a warm environment for your doughs unless you are in a big hurry.

My go-to method involves mixing the doughs the day before I bake and
retarding them in the fridge overnight. But that's me. Most folks like
to proof at room temp, but that temp can vary in many households.

If you have a microwave oven, you have the basis of a decent proofer,
though, and it helps avoid problems that can arise from a cold kitchen
in winter or a warm one in summer.

Put your bowl of dough into the microwave and adjust the temp inside
with a bowl of ice cubes if your kitchen is too warm, or a bowl of hot
water if your kitchen is too cool. Shut the door and you have made a
nifty little proofer.

Boron

On Wed, 30 May 2012 23:59:38 -1000, dsi1
> wrote:

>On 5/30/2012 6:40 PM, Cheryl wrote:
>> On 5/31/2012 12:26 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>
>>> I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
>>> occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
>>> is in the oven as we speak.
>>
>> My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
>> digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?
>>
>
>My guess is that the oven should be around 100 degrees F and that your
>new oven has a proofing mode. I used to turn my oven on for a few
>minutes until it got not-too-hot and not-too-cool. Most times I'd just
>use room temperature. The proofing mode is a good and useful feature.

That sounds pretty hot to me. Could you put a thermometer in there
sometime? I'm just curious.

In my kitchen in the winter it hangs around 60-65F. I boil a kettle
of water & pour it into a roasting pan in the bottom of the oven. It
works for the first rise-- and about 1/2 the proofing. Then I move
the bread tot he top of the stove and start the oven.

If I leave the pan in for the baking most breads are thankful for the
extra humidity.

Jim

On 5/30/2012 4:30 PM, George M. Middius wrote:
> Gary wrote:
>
>> I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
>> hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
>> a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.
>
> You could also spritz the oven with water during baking.

But that's what you do to get a crisp crust.

When my white bread's crust came out too hard, I replaced some of the
bread flour with all-purpose flour. If I ever want it softer yet, I
add a tablespoon of butter to the recipe.

Cheryl wrote:

> My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
> digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?

Very low, no higher than 90F. For rising dough, I turn my oven to
"warm" for a few minutes, then turn it off.

Hell Toupee wrote:

> >> I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
> >> hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
> >> a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.
> >
> > You could also spritz the oven with water during baking.
>
> But that's what you do to get a crisp crust.

Not for me. It makes for a thinner crust.

> When my white bread's crust came out too hard, I replaced some of the
> bread flour with all-purpose flour. If I ever want it softer yet, I
> add a tablespoon of butter to the recipe.

Another trick is to cover the bread with another pan halfway through
the bake.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:10:12 +0100, "D. T. Green"
> wrote:

>Our second attempt at making bread turned out with the crust being really
>hard and the top surface being really flat, almost slightly concave.
>
>Yet as far as we can see, the cooking times and settings were the same as
>the previous batch which turned out much better (ie soft crust and rounded
>top).
>
>Grateful to hear what you think might be going on with the second batch.
>Thanks.
>

The two symptoms given are text book for bread dough that is over
risen. I'm also betting the crust was a dull brown or dull grayish
brown.
Put the palm of your hand on the dough after you finish kneading. Feel
it and remember. Throughout the rises, place the palm of your hand on
the dough again and notice the changes. (If you flour your hands
before touching you will not stick,) During the second rise do the
same thing. You should be able to feel when the dough begins to feel
light. Try the finger poke test now. You do not want to allow the
dough to get to the point where it is jiggly or poofy. The dough
needs to grow in the oven -- called 'oven spring.' You do not achieve
all the rise outside the oven.

Janet US

On 5/31/2012 1:38 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> The long, cooler rises make for deeper flavor. There is no need to
> make a warm environment for your doughs unless you are in a big hurry.
>
> My go-to method involves mixing the doughs the day before I bake and
> retarding them in the fridge overnight. But that's me. Most folks like
> to proof at room temp, but that temp can vary in many households.

Mostly I make pizza dough and have made only a few loaves of Italian
bread. I'll have to try that sometime now that I have more time on my
hands. It surprised me how fast the dough rise was last night - after
the first rise, the pizza was baking in 20 minutes. It was pretty good.
I wish I had more that one slice. :-)

>
> If you have a microwave oven, you have the basis of a decent proofer,
> though, and it helps avoid problems that can arise from a cold kitchen
> in winter or a warm one in summer.
>
> Put your bowl of dough into the microwave and adjust the temp inside
> with a bowl of ice cubes if your kitchen is too warm, or a bowl of hot
> water if your kitchen is too cool. Shut the door and you have made a
> nifty little proofer.

That's a good idea, I'm not sure why I never thought of it. Shame on me!

>
> Boron
>
>

On 5/31/2012 2:00 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2012 23:59:38 -1000, dsi1
> > wrote:
>
>> On 5/30/2012 6:40 PM, Cheryl wrote:
>>> On 5/31/2012 12:26 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I used the proof setting on my oven this afternoon. Funny that it never
>>>> occurred to me to use it. I'm going to use it every time now. The pizza
>>>> is in the oven as we speak.
>>>
>>> My oven is new so I wonder if I have that setting. Oven temps are
>>> digital while range temps have dials. What temp is proofing?
>>>
>>
>> My guess is that the oven should be around 100 degrees F and that your
>> new oven has a proofing mode. I used to turn my oven on for a few
>> minutes until it got not-too-hot and not-too-cool. Most times I'd just
>> use room temperature. The proofing mode is a good and useful feature.
>
> That sounds pretty hot to me. Could you put a thermometer in there
> sometime? I'm just curious.

That's just a guess on my part. I figure that for an oven to feel warm,
it would have to be somewhat over body temperature. This may be a false
assumption. I checked the manual and it does not give the proofing
temperature. It does say that the oven will display "hot" if the oven's
temperature is over 100 degrees. Actually, I'm not sure if any of my
oven thermometers can read down to 100. I'll have to research this and
get back to you.

>
> In my kitchen in the winter it hangs around 60-65F. I boil a kettle
> of water& pour it into a roasting pan in the bottom of the oven. It
> works for the first rise-- and about 1/2 the proofing. Then I move
> the bread tot he top of the stove and start the oven.
>
> If I leave the pan in for the baking most breads are thankful for the
> extra humidity.

I live in the tropics so we have it a lot easier than you Northerners.
Come to think of it, all of the US is North of us.

>
> Jim

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Gary wrote:
>
> > I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
> > hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
> > a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.
>
> You could also spritz the oven with water during baking.

Thanks George, I'll try that next time I bake some bread. Probably won't be
until next fall. I don't use the oven much during the summer months. 85F
and humid here today. The A/C is running now.

Gary

Hell Toupee wrote:
>
> On 5/30/2012 4:30 PM, George M. Middius wrote:
> > Gary wrote:
> >
> >> I'm no bread expert but every single time I bake some, the crust comes out
> >> hard as a rock. I melt some butter on it right from the oven and stick it in
> >> a plastic bag for a short while. It softens the crust.
> >
> > You could also spritz the oven with water during baking.
>
> But that's what you do to get a crisp crust.
>
> When my white bread's crust came out too hard, I replaced some of the
> bread flour with all-purpose flour. If I ever want it softer yet, I
> add a tablespoon of butter to the recipe.

Hmmmmm

On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:22:31 -1000, dsi1
> wrote:

> That's a good idea, I'm not sure why I never thought of it. Shame on me!

Why would you be expected to think of it? You're not an experienced
bread baker and I bet you've never made something called "refrigerator
rolls". It opens the novice's eyes to a whole world of yeasty
possibilities. There are many versions on the internet, including
Betty Crocker's which is practically fool proof... although I bet
there's a fool or two who could mess it up if they tried hard enough.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 6/1/2012 6:18 AM, sf wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:22:31 -1000, dsi1
> > wrote:
>
>> That's a good idea, I'm not sure why I never thought of it. Shame on me!
>
> Why would you be expected to think of it? You're not an experienced
> bread baker and I bet you've never made something called "refrigerator
> rolls". It opens the novice's eyes to a whole world of yeasty
> possibilities. There are many versions on the internet, including
> Betty Crocker's which is practically fool proof... although I bet
> there's a fool or two who could mess it up if they tried hard enough.
>

I have over 40 years of experience with basic Italian/French style dough
and can whip up a batch as anybody. I no longer bother to measure
anything anymore. It never occurred to me to stick the dough in a
microwave although I've proofed in a regular oven many times.

I don't have much experience with American style white bread and bread
with different flours though American style white bread was the first
dough I ever learned. I just never found the loaf very appealing and
like the simplicity of water, flour, yeast, sugar, and salt. In a way,
you're right about my lack of experience but in a way you're wrong.

I'm not too interested in sweet, eggy, and milky, doughs although you're
right that it's a whole 'nother world.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:58:25 -1000, dsi1 >
wrote:

> On 6/1/2012 6:18 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:22:31 -1000, dsi1
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> That's a good idea, I'm not sure why I never thought of it. Shame on me!
> >
> > Why would you be expected to think of it? You're not an experienced
> > bread baker and I bet you've never made something called "refrigerator
> > rolls". It opens the novice's eyes to a whole world of yeasty
> > possibilities. There are many versions on the internet, including
> > Betty Crocker's which is practically fool proof... although I bet
> > there's a fool or two who could mess it up if they tried hard enough.
> >
>
> I have over 40 years of experience with basic Italian/French style dough
> and can whip up a batch as anybody. I no longer bother to measure
> anything anymore. It never occurred to me to stick the dough in a
> microwave although I've proofed in a regular oven many times.
>
> I don't have much experience with American style white bread and bread
> with different flours though American style white bread was the first
> dough I ever learned. I just never found the loaf very appealing and
> like the simplicity of water, flour, yeast, sugar, and salt. In a way,
> you're right about my lack of experience but in a way you're wrong.
>
> I'm not too interested in sweet, eggy, and milky, doughs although you're
> right that it's a whole 'nother world.

Maybe I didn't read some part of some thread where you itemized your
bread baking experience, but I was under the impression that you
mainly made pizza dough and not very often - so I had the wrong idea
about your bread baking expertise.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.