I live in Wisconsin, and get my raw milk from the organic guy next to me. I mainly use it for the cream, then use the butterfat as a amrinade for wild game meats. Never got sick once.

I've noticed farm kids that I teach, who are raised on the stuff, very rarely get sick.

Maybe a person who hasn't been exposed to raw milk ever and is trying a batch could get sick. I don't know. Never hurt me, nor the kids I teach, though. Fresh cream is the greatest thing on earth. Okay, well-made butter. No, perhaps cheese made from whole milk.

On Jun 7, 12:16*pm, Hell Toupee > wrote:
> On 6/7/2012 11:01 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 6:11 pm, A Moose in > *wrote:
> >> I understand that raw milk has a higher probability of containing
> >> pathogens than pasteurized milk.
> >> Can the raw milk not be tested for these pathogens?
>
> > Why take chances with your health? *Diseases that can be transmitted
> > to humans through unpasteurized cow's milk are varied and unpleasant.
> > What's wrong with pasteurizing?
>
> You've probably noticed how some people develop dietary-centered
> belief systems that are very similar to religion, treating food as if
> it is holy and fetishizing/demonizing aspects of it accordingly. With
> that mindset, it's commonplace to find them believing that food is
> best in its natural state (whatever that is) and anything that alters
> food is bad. *Hence the ranting about pasteurization, cooking, and
> just about anything to do with its raising and consumption.

An article for the thread:

http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...site-risk?lite

N.

On Jun 7, 8:50*pm, "Paul M. Cook" > wrote:
> "Gary" > wrote in ....
> > "Paul M. Cook" wrote:
>
> >> Raw organic milk from a certified dairy is about as safe a food as you
> >> will
> >> find. *There, I said it!! *Flame on!
>
> >> Paul
>
> > I'm with you, Paul.
>
> Organic really does have a meaning.
>
> > Too many people take all this organic, all natural, free range, going
> > green
> > crap beyond the limits of normal common sense. All these ppl today should
> > start a new hippie commune and live off the land. Meanwhile, food
> > producers
> > will take advantage of this and reap mega dollars by charging so much more
> > for the "natural" foods.
>
> You left off Birkenstock wearing alpaca growers. *Oh and tie dye, who could
> forget tie dye.
>
> > All people did that many years ago (without the new science) and the
> > average
> > life span was 50 if you were lucky.
>
> With science it rocks. *People died young frim all kins of things back then.
> A simple infection could kill you. *Strep throat often led to heart disease.
> Polio was a death sentence. *Milk was probably very, very low on the list.
>
> I am just reacting to the fact that mature, educated, intelligent adults
> well aware of the "risks" cannot buy something simple like what used to be
> left 2 quarts at a time on my doorstep 3 days a week. *Milked at 4:00am,
> chilled, in bottles by 6 and on the doorstep in time for breakfast at 7.
> Somehow we lived.
>
> Paul

With the huge increases in the sizes of dairy herds, failure to
provide enough space and hygienic practices, proliferation of new
strains of bacteria, etc., things now are not the same as they were
"back then." Someone who refuses to recognize this is doomed to get
sick, and is really lucky if they don't.

N.

"Nancy2" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 8:50 pm, "Paul M. Cook" > wrote:
> "Gary" > wrote in
> ...
> > "Paul M. Cook" wrote:
>
> >> Raw organic milk from a certified dairy is about as safe a food as you
> >> will
> >> find. There, I said it!! Flame on!
>
> >> Paul
>
> > I'm with you, Paul.
>
> Organic really does have a meaning.
>
> > Too many people take all this organic, all natural, free range, going
> > green
> > crap beyond the limits of normal common sense. All these ppl today
> > should
> > start a new hippie commune and live off the land. Meanwhile, food
> > producers
> > will take advantage of this and reap mega dollars by charging so much
> > more
> > for the "natural" foods.
>
> You left off Birkenstock wearing alpaca growers. Oh and tie dye, who could
> forget tie dye.
>
> > All people did that many years ago (without the new science) and the
> > average
> > life span was 50 if you were lucky.
>
> With science it rocks. People died young frim all kins of things back
> then.
> A simple infection could kill you. Strep throat often led to heart
> disease.
> Polio was a death sentence. Milk was probably very, very low on the list.
>
> I am just reacting to the fact that mature, educated, intelligent adults
> well aware of the "risks" cannot buy something simple like what used to be
> left 2 quarts at a time on my doorstep 3 days a week. Milked at 4:00am,
> chilled, in bottles by 6 and on the doorstep in time for breakfast at 7.
> Somehow we lived.
>
> Paul

With the huge increases in the sizes of dairy herds, failure to
provide enough space and hygienic practices, proliferation of new
strains of bacteria, etc., things now are not the same as they were
"back then." Someone who refuses to recognize this is doomed to get
sick, and is really lucky if they don't.


Wisconsin recently ruled that you were not allowed to drink raw milk from
your very own cow. It's a crime and they have an agency of the police
department that goes after people for doing it. They have even taken raw
milk form people's own refrigerators as if they were narcotics.
Statistically more people get sick from pasteurized milk.

Paul
N.

"Gorio" > wrote in message
...
>
> Paul M. Cook;1747207 Wrote:
>> "Hell Toupee" wrote in message
>> ...-
>> On 6/7/2012 8:47 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:-
>> "A Moose in wrote in message
>> ...-
>> I understand that raw milk has a higher probability of containing
>> pathogens than pasteurized milk.
>> Can the raw milk not be tested for these pathogens?-
>>
>> All depends on how it is stored. It's not the miit is the vessel.
>> More
>> people get sick from pasteurized milk every year.-
>>
>> And the vessel includes the cow it came from, specifically, its
>> teats.-
>>
>> Humans have consumed raw milk for a long time. Keep the teet clean and
>> you
>> don't have problems.
>> -
>> We've had raw milk producers here caught running unsanitary operations,
>>
>> including filthy barns and failure to adequately clean their cows'
>> udders
>> and teats before milking. In those cases, it isn't just the milk that
>> is a
>> potential hazard, it's the farmer's lack of care for his cows' and
>> customers' well-being that also puts them at risk.-
>>
>> It's not the milk, it's the human practices.
>> -
>> Folks who think food was better or safer or more nutritious back in the
>>
>> good old days *really* need to read some historical and medical texts.
>> Our
>> regulatory practices didn't come from nowhere; they arose to deal with
>>
>> widespread, dangerous issues related to food production and supply.-
>>
>> In Wisconsin they have a special enforcement unit that tracks down
>> people
>> who prduce and consume raw milk.
>> -
>> One of the nation's most influential proponents of milk pasteurization
>> was
>> Dr. Charles Mayo, of the famous Mayo brothers. The Mayo clinic dealt
>> with
>> so _many_ cases of people afflicted with tuberculosis from infected
>> milk
>> that Dr. Charlie built his own dairy on his own property to research
>> and
>> propose sanitary handling practices for the public's safety. He did an
>>
>> awful lot of lobbying to promote passage of the pasteurization laws
>> because of the toll raw milk consumption took on so many families.-
>>
>> Back in those days they barely knew what a bacteria was, how to isolate
>> it
>> and how to prevent it from growing. I drank raw milk every day from age
>> I
>> dunno up til about 8. So did the whole town.
>> -
>> My family was one of them. One of my aunts and her father both died
>> from
>> milk-transmitted tuberculosis. My aunt was not quite three years old at
>>
>> the time. My grandmother never got over losing her youngest child and
>> her
>> daughter from it.-
>>
>> Zoonosis is highly debated today. Many scientists are unconvinced you
>> can
>> get TB from cows. Besides, we can test cows for TB so we know they are
>> safe
>> to produce milk. This isn't 1880 ya know. Back in the day you describe
>>
>> people also died from cholera, polio, plague and a dozen other deadly
>> diseases. Not to mention trichinosis which is all but unheard of today.
>> We
>> can safely produce and consume raw milk today.
>> -
>> TB in cows is making a comeback, by the way. It's not surprising,
>> because
>> it is increasing in the human population, too, and cows are cared for
>> by
>> humans. Strains of TB resistant to antibiotics are becoming more
>> prevalent, too. The odds are quite good that TB is once again going to
>>
>> become a major health issue, and it won't be confined to humans.
>> Considering the reality of antibiotic resistant TB strains, I wouldn't
>> be
>> confident in the safety of raw milk now or in the future.-
>>
>> Organic cows are the way to go.
>>
>> Paul
>
> I live in Wisconsin, and get my raw milk from the organic guy next to
> me. I mainly use it for the cream, then use the butterfat as a amrinade
> for wild game meats. Never got sick once.
>
> I've noticed farm kids that I teach, who are raised on the stuff, very
> rarely get sick.
>
> Maybe a person who hasn't been exposed to raw milk ever and is trying a
> batch could get sick. I don't know. Never hurt me, nor the kids I teach,
> though. Fresh cream is the greatest thing on earth. Okay, well-made
> butter. No, perhaps cheese made from whole milk.
>
>

This is how the immune system gets strong as we grow from babies. You have
to be exposed to the pathogen, or some part of the pathogen which triggers
the immune system to develop antibodies. I'll never get any doctor to agree
with me but my theory is the incredible weakness of many people's immune
system these days is that they were raised in "overly" clean conditions.
Like where mom washed everything with bleach every day. Good intentions but
bad results.

Paul

No.


Baby cows have been drinking it for a looooooooooooooooooong time.

And it makes great cheese.

--
Peter
Tasmania
Australia

On Saturday, June 9, 2012 9:16:56 AM UTC-6, I'm back on the laptop wrote:
> No.
>
>
> Baby cows have been drinking it for a looooooooooooooooooong time.
>
> And it makes great cheese.
>
> --
> Peter
> Tasmania
> Australia

Clueless twit.

On 6/7/2012 10:53 AM, Hell Toupee wrote:

> TB in cows is making a comeback, by the way. It's not surprising,
> because it is increasing in the human population, too, and cows are
> cared for by humans. Strains of TB resistant to antibiotics are becoming
> more prevalent, too. The odds are quite good that TB is once again going
> to become a major health issue, and it won't be confined to humans.
> Considering the reality of antibiotic resistant TB strains, I wouldn't
> be confident in the safety of raw milk now or in the future.

Is TB zoonotic? I had my doubts but I just found an article that it is.
http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoono...is/mbovis.html

On Jun 9, 11:44*am, Roy > wrote:
> On Saturday, June 9, 2012 9:16:56 AM UTC-6, I'm back on the laptop wrote:
>
> > No.
>
> > Baby cows have been drinking it for a looooooooooooooooooong time.
>
> > And it makes great cheese.
>
> > --
> > Peter
> > Tasmania
> > Australia
>
> Clueless twit.

On this topic, anyway. Believers in raw milk resist having an
informed discussion, so it's useless to try.

N.

On Jun 8, 2:25*pm, Gorio > wrote:
> Paul M. Cook;1747207 Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Hell Toupee" wrote in message
> ...-
> > On 6/7/2012 8:47 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:-
> > "A Moose in *wrote in message
> ...-
> > I understand that raw milk has a higher probability of containing
> > pathogens than pasteurized milk.
> > Can the raw milk not be tested for these pathogens?-
>
> > All depends on how it is stored. *It's not the miit is the vessel.
> > More
> > people get sick from pasteurized milk every year.-
>
> > And the vessel includes the cow it came from, specifically, its
> > teats.-
>
> > Humans have consumed raw milk for a long time. *Keep the teet clean and
> > you
> > don't have problems.
> > -
> > We've had raw milk producers here caught running unsanitary operations,
>
> > including filthy barns and failure to adequately clean their cows'
> > udders
> > and teats before milking. In those cases, it isn't just the milk that
> > is a
> > potential hazard, it's the farmer's lack of care for his cows' and
> > customers' well-being that also puts them at risk.-
>
> > It's not the milk, it's the human practices.
> > -
> > Folks who think food was better or safer or more nutritious back in the
>
> > good old days *really* need to read some historical and medical texts.
> > Our
> > regulatory practices didn't come from nowhere; they arose to deal with
>
> > widespread, dangerous issues related to food production and supply.-
>
> > In Wisconsin they have a special enforcement unit that tracks down
> > people
> > who prduce and consume raw milk.
> > -
> > One of the nation's most influential proponents of milk pasteurization
> > was
> > Dr. Charles Mayo, of the famous Mayo brothers. The Mayo clinic dealt
> > with
> > so _many_ cases of people afflicted with tuberculosis from infected
> > milk
> > that Dr. Charlie built his own dairy on his own property to research
> > and
> > propose sanitary handling practices for the public's safety. He did an
>
> > awful lot of lobbying to promote passage of the pasteurization laws
> > because of the toll raw milk consumption took on so many families.-
>
> > Back in those days they barely knew what a bacteria was, how to isolate
> > it
> > and how to prevent it from growing. *I drank raw milk every day from age
> > I
> > dunno up til about 8. *So did the whole town.
> > -
> > My family was one of them. One of my aunts and her father both died
> > from
> > milk-transmitted tuberculosis. My aunt was not quite three years old at
>
> > the time. My grandmother never got over losing her youngest child and
> > her
> > daughter from it.-
>
> > Zoonosis is highly debated today. *Many scientists are unconvinced you
> > can
> > get TB from cows. *Besides, we can test cows for TB so we know they are
> > safe
> > to produce milk. *This isn't 1880 ya know. *Back in the day you describe
>
> > people also died from cholera, polio, plague and a dozen other deadly
> > diseases. *Not to mention trichinosis which is all but unheard of today.
> > We
> > can safely produce and consume raw milk today.
> > -
> > TB in cows is making a comeback, by the way. It's not surprising,
> > because
> > it is increasing in the human population, too, and cows are cared for
> > by
> > humans. Strains of TB resistant to antibiotics are becoming more
> > prevalent, too. The odds are quite good that TB is once again going to
>
> > become a major health issue, and it won't be confined to humans.
> > Considering the reality of antibiotic resistant TB strains, I wouldn't
> > be
> > confident in the safety of raw milk now or in the future.-
>
> > Organic cows are the way to go.
>
> > Paul
>
> I live in Wisconsin, and get my raw milk from the organic guy next to
> me. I mainly use it for the cream, then use the butterfat as a amrinade
> for wild game meats. Never got sick once.
>
> I've noticed farm kids that I teach, who are raised on the stuff, very
> rarely get sick.
>
> Maybe a person who hasn't been exposed to raw milk ever and is trying a
> batch could get sick. I don't know. Never hurt me, nor the kids I teach,
> though. Fresh cream is the greatest thing on earth. Okay, well-made
> butter. No, perhaps cheese made from whole milk.
>
> --
> Gorio

Unfortunately, organic doesn't always equal healthy. Diseases you can
get from raw milk are nasty, whether or not the milk is organic.

N.

On 2012-07-08, Nancy2 > wrote:

> Unfortunately, organic doesn't always equal healthy. Diseases you can
> get from raw milk are nasty, whether or not the milk is organic.

And the toxic cocktail commonly passing fer safe milk is perfectly
harmless? NOT!

Anyone who believes rBGH treated cows are giving us safe milk is a
fool. Synthetic hormones, antibiotics, pus, etc, are but a few of the
goblins in most of today's milk. I'll rather take my chances with
raw, or preferably plain ol' pasturized milk (which adds nothing),
over the current chemical nightmare sold in most stores.

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On 08/07/2012 11:26 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
> On Jun 9, 11:44 am, Roy > wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 9, 2012 9:16:56 AM UTC-6, I'm back on the laptop wrote:
>>
>>> No.
>>
>>> Baby cows have been drinking it for a looooooooooooooooooong time.
>>
>>> And it makes great cheese.
>>
>>> --
>>> Peter
>>> Tasmania
>>> Australia
>>
>> Clueless twit.
>
> On this topic, anyway. Believers in raw milk resist having an
> informed discussion, so it's useless to try.

I have to say that I was concerned when our government presented the
possibility of banning the importation of cheeses made from raw milk.
The locally made imitations just don't compare. OTOH, milk is
pasteurized because of the diseases that were being passed on to people
consuming raw milk.

On 7/8/2012 10:28 AM, Nancy2 wrote:

> Unfortunately, organic doesn't always equal healthy. Diseases you can
> get from raw milk are nasty, whether or not the milk is organic.
>
> N.


There was a woman giving samples of the goat cheese she makes at the
farmer's market yesterday. She is not allowed to sell it outright, but
you can join her milk club to get it. She had copies of a state mandated
waiver for anyone who buys "raw milk" products to sign. Basically the
waiver listed all the terrible things that can happen to you if you eat
raw milk products.

The cheese was good, but the waiver scared the s**t out of me.
--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

On 08/07/2012 1:19 PM, Janet Wilder wrote:

>
> There was a woman giving samples of the goat cheese she makes at the
> farmer's market yesterday. She is not allowed to sell it outright, but
> you can join her milk club to get it. She had copies of a state mandated
> waiver for anyone who buys "raw milk" products to sign. Basically the
> waiver listed all the terrible things that can happen to you if you eat
> raw milk products.
>
> The cheese was good, but the waiver scared the s**t out of me.


Some of the things that you can catch milk can get shit out of you
too.... and lots of it.

On 2012-07-08, Dave Smith > wrote:

> Some of the things that you can catch milk can get shit out of you
> too.... and lots of it.

My guess is, that's one of the early symptoms of lactose intolerance.
It's not like milk makes me deathly ill or I have an allergic reaction
causing my throat/face to slam shut, but if I drink any, I'll be
cleaned out slick as a whistle within about 8-10 hrs, gar-own-tee!

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On Jun 7, 11:04*am, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:21:28 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
>
> > wrote:
> >On Jun 6, 6:11*pm, A Moose in Love > wrote:
> >> I understand that raw milk has a higher probability of containing
> >> pathogens than pasteurized milk.
> >> Can the raw milk not be tested for these pathogens?
>
> >The risk is small if the farmer is really diligent, but you have a
> >chance of getting pretty sick. *Raw milk does taste awfully good. *The
> >happy medium is "minimally pasteurized," which is pricey, safe, tastes
> >almost as good as raw, and is legal to sell everywhere. *If I could
>
> ...
>
> Where do you get your "minimally pasteurized" milk? I Googled it and
> it seems very rarely available.

At one time they had it at Whole Foods, but I haven't seen it there
for a while. The product was also organic, non-homogenized and grass-
fed, and it was awfully expensive. I think that "very rarely
available" is pretty accurate. Different stated have different laws
about raw milk. Like I wrote, I know one rather straight-laced
Christian mother who raised two children on clandestinely bought raw
milk. Luckily, they never got sick from it.

Your point about high prices is valid. Raw milk is a boutique item.
I imagine that the farmers have to charge such high prices not only
because of the extra production costs--even in states where it is
legal--of keeping the milking process scrupulously clean, but because
of the cost of liability insurance.

It seems to me that electron beam irradiation would retain the taste
well, but most of the raw milk enthusiasts tout the *natural* benefits
of raw milk, unlike someone like me who just likes the taste. I
almost don't want milk to taste better. It is so delicious even in
its commercially processed state, that it's hard to resist drinking
way too much to not get fat.
>
> John Kuthe...

--Bryan

On Jun 7, 9:48*am, James Silverton > wrote:
> On 6/7/2012 9:23 AM, Andy wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > A Moose in > *wrote:
>
> >> The above link makes the case for pasteurization.
> >> The reason I asked about raw milk is that we drank it every day when
> >> we had the farm. *No illnesses reported. *But then the above link also
> >> mentions that farmers might become immune to pathogens contained in
> >> the raw milk.
>
> > We summer vacationed on an organic farm/resort. We all did farm chores.
>
> > The farm raised free range cows. The farmer used a milking machine.
> > Whether it pasturized the milk during the process? I don't know. My job
> > was carting the milk jugs to the main house kitchen.
>
> > It was served at breakfast at the appointed hour.
>
> > Maybe it wasn't raw but it was the freshest and richest milk I ever had..
>
> > None of the guests ever got sick in all the years.
>
> > Andy
>
> Free range, organic or not, are the cows regularly tested for
> tuberculosis? If not, I'd leave the milk alone.

You can bet they test for *that*. Jeez, what insurance company would
issue a policy if they didn't?

E coli is the main concern. Someone from FDA wrote, "More than 300
people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating
cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from
these products in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention."
source-- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_n6198587/

While that's certainly a non-trivial number, the risk is pretty
small. I don't believe in the health benefits of raw milk, and
consider it somewhat risky, but driving a car is riskier than taking
public transit. Eating beef or lamb that is not thoroughly cooked
entails some risk. Raw milk is not more dangerous than many other
choices that folks make every day. The farmers who sell it are niche
businesspersons, and those who buy it put their families at risk, but
more than those who allow their children to bicycle or skateboard
without helmets, or get into canoes without life jackets? Maybe, or
maybe not. IMO, allowing your child to develop obesity is FAR WORSE
than any of the above, and we certainly allow parents to do *that*.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
--Bryan

On Jun 7, 4:37*pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2012-06-07, Janet > wrote:
>
> > *Same in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Israel....
>
> Yeah, I can read, too.
>
> Monsanto. *Coming to a country near you.

The USA has an established religion, in violation of the 1st
Amendment, and it's called Capitalism. I'd love to erect a flagpole
in my front yard where I fly an American flag below a flag with the
emblem of the World Trade Organization, but my wife won't let me.
>
> nb
>
--Bryan

On Jun 7, 7:15*pm, Dave Smith > wrote:
> On 07/06/2012 12:28 PM, notbob wrote:
>
> > On 2012-06-07, > *wrote:
>
> >> We drank our own cows' milk when I was a young'un in the 40s
>
> > I'm sure yer cows were not subjected to Monsanto's horrific chemical
> > cocktail, as are 98% of todays milk cows. *I no longer even drink
> > milk.
>
> If I were really, really thirsty and looked in the fridge for something
> cold to drink and there as nothing but milk, *I would drink tap water. I
> have not drunk a glad of milk for at least 30 years. *I have milk on
> cereal and in my morning latte. I never drink it straight. *I throat
> gets all phlegmy just thinking about it.

I wish that I felt that way.

--Bryan

"Bryan" > wrote in message

(snip)
I don't believe in the health benefits of raw milk, and
consider it somewhat risky, but driving a car is riskier than taking
public transit. Eating beef or lamb that is not thoroughly cooked
entails some risk. Raw milk is not more dangerous than many other
choices that folks make every day. The farmers who sell it are niche
businesspersons, and those who buy it put their families at risk, but
more than those who allow their children to bicycle or skateboard
without helmets, or get into canoes without life jackets? Maybe, or
maybe not. IMO, allowing your child to develop obesity is FAR WORSE
than any of the above, and we certainly allow parents to do *that*.
_________________________________
Nicely balanced, but far too high in rational thought over opionated waffle
for usenet :-))

Janet Wilder wrote:

> There was a woman giving samples of the goat cheese she makes at the
> farmer's market yesterday. She is not allowed to sell it outright, but
> you can join her milk club to get it. She had copies of a state mandated
> waiver for anyone who buys "raw milk" products to sign. Basically the
> waiver listed all the terrible things that can happen to you if you eat
> raw milk products.
> The cheese was good, but the waiver scared the s**t out of me.

The laws requiring milk to be pasteurized are ancient and onerous.
It's gummint red tape run amok.

Bryan wrote:

> The USA has an established religion, in violation of the 1st
> Amendment, and it's called Capitalism. I'd love to erect a flagpole
> in my front yard where I fly an American flag below a flag with the
> emblem of the World Trade Organization, but my wife won't let me.

I hate organized religion, don't you?

On Jul 8, 9:27*pm, George M. Middius > wrote:
> Bryan wrote:
> > The USA has an established religion, in violation of the 1st
> > Amendment, and it's called Capitalism. *I'd love to erect a flagpole
> > in my front yard where I fly an American flag below a flag with the
> > emblem of the World Trade Organization, but my wife won't let me.
>
> I hate organized religion, don't you?

No. Much of the positive change in this country has grown out of
organized religion, and the mainline Protestant churches do a heck of
a lot of good. I work for one, and have for nearly 19 years. I also
used to work for a Jewish Temple (Reform, of course). Sure, there are
religious organizations that are on balance bad, like the Roman
Pedophile Church, the Mormons, and those freaky-ass Scientologists,
but even the first two of those do good things as well. The
Scientologists, to my knowledge, have no redeeming qualities. I'm not
fond of the fundie churches who seem obsessed with controlling other
folks' sexuality and reproduction, but you get that crappiness from
the ignorant masses in cultures all over the world in the absence or
presence of organized religion.
Most of the people I know and love are sincere, believing Christians,
and they accept me as a sincere, non-believing Atheist. I don't even
think religion is nonsensical, like I do patriotism, which I also
don't see as necessarily bad, just silly. I do think that any
philosophy that elevates greed to a virtue is evil, but the Atheist,
Ayn Rand, took that a lot further than the theologian, John Calvin.
I also don't hate Capitalism as described by Adam Smith and Karl Marx,
though the jury is still out on whether Capitalism can be tempered by
moral decency (Smith), or will, by its own existence, destroy moral
decency (Marx), as it seems to have already done to the extreme
economic Rightists in the USA, who make Smith look like one of the
Roosevelts. I hate the WTO, and I have contempt for any American who
claims to be patriotic, yet is fine with surrendering sovereignty to a
totally amoral entity that works against the interests of American
workers. Like the song says:

You're a sucker
For the Dow Jones
You believe that their class interests
Coincide with your own
You're a chump
And that ain't cool
They're taking you for a fool
They're taking you for a fool

--Bryan

On Jul 8, 8:10*pm, "Farm1" > wrote:
> "Bryan" > wrote in message
>
> (snip)
> *I don't believe in the health benefits of raw milk, and
> consider it somewhat risky, but driving a car is riskier than taking
> public transit. *Eating beef or lamb that is not thoroughly cooked
> entails some risk. *Raw milk is not more dangerous than many other
> choices that folks make every day. *The farmers who sell it are niche
> businesspersons, and those who buy it put their families at risk, but
> more than those who allow their children to bicycle or skateboard
> without helmets, or get into canoes without life jackets? *Maybe, or
> maybe not. *IMO, allowing your child to develop obesity is FAR WORSE
> than any of the above, and we certainly allow parents to do *that*.
> _________________________________
> Nicely balanced, but far too high in rational thought over opionated waffle
> for usenet :-))

Yeah, I have that problem, don't I? I'd love to engage in written
debates that were refereed by a disinterested logician, but I don't
think that's gonna happen.

--Bryan

On 9/07/2012 9:39 AM, Bryan wrote:
> On Jun 7, 11:04 am, John Kuthe > wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:21:28 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
>>
>> > wrote:
>>> On Jun 6, 6:11 pm, A Moose in Love > wrote:
>>>> I understand that raw milk has a higher probability of containing
>>>> pathogens than pasteurized milk.
>>>> Can the raw milk not be tested for these pathogens?
>>
>>> The risk is small if the farmer is really diligent, but you have a
>>> chance of getting pretty sick. Raw milk does taste awfully good. The
>>> happy medium is "minimally pasteurized," which is pricey, safe, tastes
>>> almost as good as raw, and is legal to sell everywhere. If I could
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Where do you get your "minimally pasteurized" milk? I Googled it and
>> it seems very rarely available.
>
> At one time they had it at Whole Foods, but I haven't seen it there
> for a while. The product was also organic, non-homogenized and grass-
> fed, and it was awfully expensive. I think that "very rarely
> available" is pretty accurate. Different stated have different laws
> about raw milk. Like I wrote, I know one rather straight-laced
> Christian mother who raised two children on clandestinely bought raw
> milk. Luckily, they never got sick from it.

It probably bumped up their immune system to a much higher level. The
kids fed on pasteurised milk would be more likely to pick up diseases,
though not necessarily from the milk..
>
> Your point about high prices is valid. Raw milk is a boutique item.
> I imagine that the farmers have to charge such high prices not only
> because of the extra production costs--even in states where it is
> legal--of keeping the milking process scrupulously clean, but because
> of the cost of liability insurance.

ALL dairy producers need to keep the milking process scrupulously clean.
>
> It seems to me that electron beam irradiation would retain the taste
> well, but most of the raw milk enthusiasts tout the *natural* benefits
> of raw milk, unlike someone like me who just likes the taste. I
> almost don't want milk to taste better. It is so delicious even in
> its commercially processed state, that it's hard to resist drinking
> way too much to not get fat.
>>
>> John Kuthe...
>
> --Bryan
>
I grew up on raw milk. There wasn't any other kind back when I was a
kid. The milko would come round and ladle the desired quantity directly
from his churns into your own containers and he would do this every day,
Sundays excepted. Used to get a whole lot of cream settling on top of
the milk. No homogenisation back then either. Funny thing was, none of
us kids ever got sick from the milk.



--

Krypsis

On 9/07/2012 7:26 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-07-08, Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>> Some of the things that you can catch milk can get shit out of you
>> too.... and lots of it.
>
> My guess is, that's one of the early symptoms of lactose intolerance.
> It's not like milk makes me deathly ill or I have an allergic reaction
> causing my throat/face to slam shut, but if I drink any, I'll be
> cleaned out slick as a whistle within about 8-10 hrs, gar-own-tee!
>
> nb
>
Way too much information! ;-)

--

Krypsis

George M. Middius wrote:
>Janet Wilder wrote:
>
>> There was a woman giving samples at the farmer's market yesterday.
>
>The laws requiring milk to be pasteurized are ancient and enormous.

Just latch on to a dairy farmer's daughter:
http://i46.tinypic.com/35k3kok.jpg

On 2012-07-09, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:

>>The laws requiring milk to be pasteurized are ancient and enormous.

They're less tha 150 yrs old and how can a law be "enormous"?

(who is this idjit?)


> Just latch on to a dairy farmer's daughter:
> http://i46.tinypic.com/35k3kok.jpg

Lordy shel, where do you find these skanks? You've never once offered
up one that isn't "practically deformed".

nb

--
vi --the heart of evil!

On 7/9/2012 11:38 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
>> Janet Wilder wrote:
>>
>>> There was a woman giving samples at the farmer's market yesterday.
>>
>> The laws requiring milk to be pasteurized are ancient and enormous.
>
> Just latch on to a dairy farmer's daughter:
> http://i46.tinypic.com/35k3kok.jpg


Man, that looks painful.

On Jul 8, 10:46*am, notbob > wrote:
> On 2012-07-08, Nancy2 > wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, organic doesn't always equal healthy. *Diseases you can
> > get from raw milk are nasty, whether or not the milk is organic.
>
> And the toxic cocktail commonly passing fer safe milk is perfectly
> harmless? *NOT!
>
> Anyone who believes rBGH treated cows are giving us safe milk is a
> fool. *Synthetic hormones, antibiotics, pus, etc, are but a few of the
> goblins in most of today's milk. *I'll rather take my chances with
> raw, or preferably plain ol' pasturized milk (which adds nothing),
> over the current chemical nightmare sold in most stores.
>
> nb
>
> --
> vi --the heart of evil!

It's very easy to find non-hormone fully pasteurized milk in my area,
which is heavy agricultural. Just read the damn label.

N.

Maybe the pasteurized part; but the hormone thing isn't quite so simple.

"http://www.naturalnews.com/022699_milk_BGH_rBGH.html"

Many conventional farmers that use the stuff can legally claim to be free of the stuff. Most avoid offering a recombinant product; but the hormones are still there. they need them to up production to remain competitive; and Monsanto makes a killing.

On Jul 8, 10:27*pm, George M. Middius > wrote:
> Bryan wrote:
> > The USA has an established religion, in violation of the 1st
> > Amendment, and it's called Capitalism. *I'd love to erect a flagpole
> > in my front yard where I fly an American flag below a flag with the
> > emblem of the World Trade Organization, but my wife won't let me.
>
> I hate organized religion, don't you?

Hey there, fatback! Anything...unusual...happen to you lately. Like
"bad luck"?