On Monday, August 20, 2012 8:52:17 AM UTC-5, Gorio wrote:
> I like olive oil.
>
>
>
> But I'm happy with just boring old non-EV for cooking, as using EVOO on
>
> things has been replaced, to a degree, with unfiltered sunflower oil,
>
> which, IMHO, has a much more interesting flavor on salads and such.
>
> Pasta, though, asks for EVOO for finishing, as does good bread for
>
> dipping.
>
>
>
> For light sauteing, olive oil or grapeseed. Deep fry-peanut or corn. In
>
> caste iron, though, I roll with bacon fat, baby!!
>
Corn oil is a poor choice. It's very high in polyunsaturates. So is regular, high linoleic sunflower. The new high oleic sunflower oils are the best choice if one does not want the flavor of, or wants to avoid the cost of olive oil.

Healthfulness-wise, Omega 6 is bad. Omega 3 is very good in controlled amounts, bad in excessive amounts. Omega 9, the main component of olive and high oleic sunflower, is very good.

IMO, every deep fryer in every restaurant should be filled with high oleic sunflower oil, and pastries should be made with either butter (for deliciousness), or high stearic/high oleic sunflower, which is flavorless, but performs as well as the less healthful palm kernel or coconut, or the far less healthful palm oil. Partially hydrogenated oils are not fit for human consumption.
>
> --
>
> Gorio

--Bryan

On 8/19/2012 8:17 PM, Farm1 wrote:

> Indeed. It's your opinion. Others have different opinons and especially
> about those who are so neeedy that they do that big no-no of usenet, namely,
> nymshift.

Then there are others who have nothing better to do than discuss it ad
nauseam.

"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message

> I can't fathom why anyone wants to be President of the US,

:-)) I've got to say that watching US politics from afar, I've often
wondered exactly the same thing. US politics seems to be even more toxic
than our own local version.

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/19/2012 8:17 PM, Farm1 wrote:
>
>> Indeed. It's your opinion. Others have different opinons and especially
>> about those who are so neeedy that they do that big no-no of usenet,
>> namely,
>> nymshift.
>
> Then there are others who have nothing better to do than discuss it ad
> nauseam.

Mieou!

On Aug 20, 7:46*pm, Bryan > wrote:

> For example, the 9/11 jihadists killed so many infidels that they are entitled to 70 "extra virgins," as opposed to the 70 regular virgins that lower level suicide bombers get--you know, like the ones who just kill a few innocent Israeli men, women and children.


Just as the innocent Israeli men, women, and children have done to
them over the years.

TJ

Farm1 wrote:

> > I can't fathom why anyone wants to be President of the US,
>
> :-)) I've got to say that watching US politics from afar, I've often
> wondered exactly the same thing. US politics seems to be even more toxic
> than our own local version.

If that's true, it's because of global warming. Our current caustic
environment started in 1980, when the ****uplicans decided to hang
their hats on the hoax bandwagon.

If we're lucky, one or both of our chief parties will splinter into
two or more sects. The religionists and the know-nothings are ruining
the GOP.

On 8/12/2012 8:47 AM, Gary wrote:
> No, not Popeye's girlfriend. I'm talking about EEVO here.
>
> As you all might remember, I've always hated the nasty stuff....and yet most
> of the world uses it often.
>
(snip)

> I finally bought a new bottle yesterday....a new brand and actually even
> cheaper. It was so cheap, I figured that even if I didn't like it, no big
> loss. An 8.5oz bottle of it for only $2.49.
>
> Well, as soon as I got home, I tasted it. Very mild flavor and not so
> overpowering as the Pompeian brand. I think I might start using EVOO much
> more often....my eyes have been opened.
>
(snip)
> Gary
>
Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you have
to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive oil
when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand. I think I drizzled a
baking sheet with it when I baked some Crash Hot Potatoes.

http://thepioneerwoman.com/cooking/2...-hot-potatoes/

I seriously doubt the type of oil matters much in that dish.)

Still, I'm glad you found an inexpensive brand you like.

Jill

Bryan wrote:
>
>For example, the 9/11 jihadists killed so many infidels that they are entitled to 70 "extra virgins".

The Kooran never mentions that those virgins are past menopause
because they were so ugli no man wanted to **** those a-rabs even with
their faces covered. LOL-LOL

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Gary wrote:

> > My friend, you sound like one die hard liberal. No reasoning with you.
>
> <snicker>
>
> > Now you are blaming global warming on Republicans, in a way? lol.
>
> No, dimbulb. I'm blaming the current state of divisiveness on the
> ****uplicans' intransigence. They are the ones who decided to
> politicize the threat of global climatic catastrophe in order to line
> their pockets. Granted, the ****uplicans are so venial and
> unprincipled that might well have achieved the same result without
> that one single issue.
>
> Anyway, didn't you just admit you are affronted by the pernicious
> influence of the religion freaks on the GOP? You should welcome the
> possibility that the party might split. Right now, this country has no
> liberal party whatsoever. If the ****ups split into a real Republican
> party and a jeebus-lovers' party, the Democrats could move to the
> left. With three or more parties, we'd have a much better chance at a
> truly representative government.
>
> I realize that is a lot of heavy thinking for a "conservative", so
> I'll understand if it takes you a few months to catch up.

You just made my point.

G.

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:37:06 AM UTC-5, Tommy Joe wrote:
> On Aug 20, 7:46*pm, Bryan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > For example, the 9/11 jihadists killed so many infidels that they are entitled to 70 "extra virgins," as opposed to the 70 regular virgins that lower level suicide bombers get--you know, like the ones who just kill a few innocent Israeli men, women and children.
>
>
>
>
>
> Just as the innocent Israeli men, women, and children have done to
>
> them over the years.
>
The settlers who harass and kill Palestinians are also terrorists.
>
> TJ

--Bryan

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 03:58:39 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:37:06 AM UTC-5, Tommy Joe wrote:
> > On Aug 20, 7:46*pm, Bryan > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > For example, the 9/11 jihadists killed so many infidels that they are entitled to 70 "extra virgins," as opposed to the 70 regular virgins that lower level suicide bombers get--you know, like the ones who just kill a few innocent Israeli men, women and children.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Just as the innocent Israeli men, women, and children have done to
> >
> > them over the years.
> >
> The settlers who harass and kill Palestinians are also terrorists.
> >
The Israeli-Palestinian dynamics are very interesting. Israel is by
no means an underdog and the Palestinians are in a losing situation.
It's no wonder they resort to violence from time to time. Anyone with
any backbone at all would. I wish the US would take a stand and tell
the Israeli government to stop bullying them.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

sf wrote:
> Bryan > wrote:
>
>> The settlers who harass and kill Palestinians are also terrorists.
>
> The Israeli-Palestinian dynamics are very interesting. Israel is by
> no means an underdog and the Palestinians are in a losing situation.
> It's no wonder they resort to violence from time to time. Anyone with
> any backbone at all would.

Far and away the worst of the lot are the bordering Arab countries.
They actively force the Palastinians to stay near the border and incite
them against Israel. It's a deliberate strategy to abuse their own
people for poltical ends.

What choice do Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have? Let the
Palastinians absorb into their population or emigrate. In which case
they lose a buffer of cannon fodder bordering on Israel. They lose the
excuse that violence keeps happening.

What choice do the Palastinians have? They can escape as they are
generally not allowed to just move. Over time the most resourceful
and/or intelligent among them do escape to various parts fo the world.
I've worked with some. Good folks once they grew accustomed to the fact
that they were no longer in that trap.

What choice do the Israelis have? Give up their country? It may have
been a mistake to charter Israel in 1948 but it's now far too late for
that. They can die or they can live with the Palastinians on their
border. So they stay heavily armed.

> I wish the US would take a stand and tell
> the Israeli government to stop bullying them.

You mean the countries that actually are bullying the Palestinians.
That would be lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. You know, the
countries where the Palastinians have been living for generations now.

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Far and away the worst of the lot are the bordering Arab countries.
> They actively force the Palastinians to stay near the border and incite
> them against Israel. It's a deliberate strategy to abuse their own
> people for poltical ends.

I disagree. A lot of blame should be laid on Iran for their
sponsorship of Hamas.

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Far and away the worst of the lot are the bordering Arab countries.
> > They actively force the Palastinians to stay near the border and incite
> > them against Israel. It's a deliberate strategy to abuse their own
> > people for poltical ends.
>
> I disagree. A lot of blame should be laid on Iran for their
> sponsorship of Hamas.

I blame the US republicans for everything wrong in this world. I know some
will agree with me here.

G.

Gary wrote:

> > I disagree. A lot of blame should be laid on Iran for their
> > sponsorship of Hamas.
>
> I blame the US republicans for everything wrong in this world. I know some
> will agree with me here.

I didn't push you *that* hard. Your momentum is out of proportion.

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Gary wrote:
>
> > > I disagree. A lot of blame should be laid on Iran for their
> > > sponsorship of Hamas.
> >
> > I blame the US republicans for everything wrong in this world. I know some
> > will agree with me here.
>
> I didn't push you *that* hard. Your momentum is out of proportion.

I'm just teasing you a bit tonight, George. No offense intended. And as I
stated, I'm NOT the Republican that I used to be or thought I was. I really
don't like them much at all at this time.

G. :-D

Speaking of the Pubs...heard on the news this afternoon that they are going
ahead with their convention even though a hurricane is possible there. It's
in God's hands now.

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
> sf wrote:

>> I wish the US would take a stand and tell
>> the Israeli government to stop bullying them.
>
> You mean the countries that actually are bullying the Palestinians.
> That would be lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. You know, the
> countries where the Palastinians have been living for generations now.

What about clearances of Arab villages for Israeli settlements. I'd rate
that action as being a bullying act by the Israeli government of it's own
residents even though they may be Arabs.

On Aug 23, 6:58*am, Bryan > wrote:

> The settlers who harass and kill Palestinians are also terrorists.


I'm at a point where I almost don't care what happens. I don't
read too much political crap - been there, done that, can't escape it,
forever and ever amen - but I see it and hear it even when I don't
want to. Now I hear Israel is claiming if they elect to bomb Iraq
they are not going to tell the USA first. Bullshit. Israel is a
puppet for the US, and sometimes I think it works the other way around
too. Let's face it, most of Israel's leaders since that state was
born, or founded, or instituted, or whatever one chooses to call it,
have been of European blood, perhaps German or Russian, whatever lands
the gypsies wandered through before needlessly settling down in Israel
when New York City is already their home base. Why don't they just
leave and then whatever happens with the Arabs, at least the jews of
Israel won't be blamed for it. I'm sick of hearing about the precious
Israeli state. The Palestinian crybabies also get on my nerves even
though I'm half arab. But overall I'd have to side with the arabs
over the jews if the US stayed out of it and just let the ancient
rivals have another go at it.

TJ

Farm1 wrote:
> "Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
>> sf wrote:
>
>>> I wish the US would take a stand and tell
>>> the Israeli government to stop bullying them.
>
>> You mean the countries that actually are bullying the Palestinians.
>> That would be lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. You know, the
>> countries where the Palastinians have been living for generations now.
>
> What about clearances of Arab villages for Israeli settlements. I'd rate
> that action as being a bullying act by the Israeli government of it's own
> residents even though they may be Arabs.

In many cases they were voluntary. The locals left because the
bordering Arab countries told them they would be able to return soon.
Didn't work out that why and sure enough the bordering bully states
don't get the just blame for that.

In many cases they were forced. These folks have have generations to
battle back and take the land back. What's the point where they should
accept reality? Germany should take back Alsace by force, too, right?
The Austro-Hungarian Empire should take back Tyrol by force, too, right?
In the US the aboriginal tribes should rise up and take back the
continent, right? If they all want to die I guess it's a good way to go
out in a blaze of idiotic glory. It would "solve the problem" in its
own way. For that matter it would improve the average intelligence of
our entire species as well. Thing is I've met immigrants from Palatine.
They were fairly smart. The smart ones have been leaving steadily for
generations. Think about what that implies to the nes still there.

I'm from the United States. Here a hundred miles is a short distance
and a hundred years is a long time. Which doesn't make sense because
SI metric has existed for over a hundred years! I have long sense
stopped having sympathy for the right of return claim. Like it or not
in international history might makes right. The issue has been settled
since in excess of 99% of the living Palastinians were born. The few
thousand still alive who remember 1948 I do get they'll spent the rest
of their lives pushing for it. And in the meantime their intelligent
neighbors leave for civiliation.

The clearances of Arab villages happened a very long time ago. By force
or otherwise it's a done deal. Face reality and move on. In history
people get the shaft. The topic is a canard. A word game to foster
hate. And it's a word game played heavily by the bullies in the
leadership of the countries bordering on Israel who have for decades
screwed their own people keeping them in camps as cannon fodder with
word games like this.

And as Middius points out there are crusader groups in other Muslim
majority countries who consider this one of the fronts in their modern
crusade. Christianity went through its cusade phase centuries ago and
got over it centuries ago. In this century and the previous one Islam
has entered its own crusade phase. Those of us in secular civilization
send troops to some of their regions to hold that crusade at bay. For
the moment.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:54:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
> wrote:

> Farm1 wrote:
> > "Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
> >> sf wrote:
> >
> >>> I wish the US would take a stand and tell
> >>> the Israeli government to stop bullying them.
> >
> >> You mean the countries that actually are bullying the Palestinians.
> >> That would be lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. You know, the
> >> countries where the Palastinians have been living for generations now.
> >
> > What about clearances of Arab villages for Israeli settlements. I'd rate
> > that action as being a bullying act by the Israeli government of it's own
> > residents even though they may be Arabs.
>
> In many cases they were voluntary. The locals left because the
> bordering Arab countries told them they would be able to return soon.
> Didn't work out that why and sure enough the bordering bully states
> don't get the just blame for that.
>
> In many cases they were forced. These folks have have generations to
> battle back and take the land back. What's the point where they should
> accept reality? Germany should take back Alsace by force, too, right?
> The Austro-Hungarian Empire should take back Tyrol by force, too, right?
> In the US the aboriginal tribes should rise up and take back the
> continent, right? If they all want to die I guess it's a good way to go
> out in a blaze of idiotic glory. It would "solve the problem" in its
> own way. For that matter it would improve the average intelligence of
> our entire species as well. Thing is I've met immigrants from Palatine.
> They were fairly smart. The smart ones have been leaving steadily for
> generations. Think about what that implies to the nes still there.
>
> I'm from the United States. Here a hundred miles is a short distance
> and a hundred years is a long time. Which doesn't make sense because
> SI metric has existed for over a hundred years! I have long sense
> stopped having sympathy for the right of return claim. Like it or not
> in international history might makes right. The issue has been settled
> since in excess of 99% of the living Palastinians were born. The few
> thousand still alive who remember 1948 I do get they'll spent the rest
> of their lives pushing for it. And in the meantime their intelligent
> neighbors leave for civiliation.
>
> The clearances of Arab villages happened a very long time ago. By force
> or otherwise it's a done deal. Face reality and move on. In history
> people get the shaft. The topic is a canard. A word game to foster
> hate. And it's a word game played heavily by the bullies in the
> leadership of the countries bordering on Israel who have for decades
> screwed their own people keeping them in camps as cannon fodder with
> word games like this.
>
> And as Middius points out there are crusader groups in other Muslim
> majority countries who consider this one of the fronts in their modern
> crusade. Christianity went through its cusade phase centuries ago and
> got over it centuries ago. In this century and the previous one Islam
> has entered its own crusade phase. Those of us in secular civilization
> send troops to some of their regions to hold that crusade at bay. For
> the moment.

It's not just that, it's all the rules concerning farming their own
land right now that puts them in a losing situation with the Israelis
encroaching on them, invoking old rules on their new positions and
then shooting the Palestinians who dare to farm their own land.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

jmcquown wrote:
>
> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you have
> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive oil
> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.

Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've never
been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked to use
it for:

1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until wilted.
2) Whenever I make spaghetti sauce and it calls for say 4 TBS of oil? I'll
add 2 of canola oil and 2 of EVOO. I like the taste in small doses.
3) A few months ago I made that white broccoli pizza with all EVOO and it
was good even though I suspect that old bottle had turned rancid? It was
good though.

> Still, I'm glad you found an inexpensive brand you like.

So far I haven't used it other than a taste or two on my finger. This is
much milder tasting that what I've always had and I think I'm going to like
it.

Gary

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
...
> Farm1 wrote:
>> "Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message
>>> sf wrote:
>>
>>>> I wish the US would take a stand and tell
>>>> the Israeli government to stop bullying them.
>>
>>> You mean the countries that actually are bullying the Palestinians.
>>> That would be lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. You know, the
>>> countries where the Palastinians have been living for generations now.
>>
>> What about clearances of Arab villages for Israeli settlements. I'd rate
>> that action as being a bullying act by the Israeli government of it's own
>> residents even though they may be Arabs.
>
> In many cases they were voluntary.

No, not at all voluntary. Illegal and against the Geneva Convention
according to the UN, the EU and most of the western world.

The US, of course, cannot manage anything more effective than comments along
the line of 'deeply disappointed' every time Israel yet again engages in
such activity and vetoes every attempt by The Security Council to take
action against Israel.

On 8/24/2012 4:28 PM, Gary wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>>
>> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you have
>> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive oil
>> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.
>
> Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've never
> been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked to use
> it for:
>
> 1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until wilted.


Yes, that's something I posted here years ago. Hot spinach salad.
Brown the garlic and cook the spinach until just wilted.

When I worked at O'Charley's they used to deep fry spinach. OMG that
was wonderful! But I don't deep fry anything so... sorry.

Jill

jmcquown wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 4:28 PM, Gary wrote:
>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you have
>>> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive oil
>>> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.
>>
>> Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've
>> never
>> been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked
>> to use
>> it for:
>>
>> 1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until
>> wilted.
>
>
> Yes, that's something I posted here years ago. Hot spinach salad.
> Brown the garlic and cook the spinach until just wilted.
>
> When I worked at O'Charley's they used to deep fry spinach. OMG that
> was wonderful! But I don't deep fry anything so... sorry.
>
> Jill
Your resume must be 12 pages long!

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:34:18 PM UTC-5, Tommy Joe wrote:
> On Aug 23, 6:58*am, Bryan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > The settlers who harass and kill Palestinians are also terrorists.
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm at a point where I almost don't care what happens. I don't
>
> read too much political crap - been there, done that, can't escape it,
>
> forever and ever amen - but I see it and hear it even when I don't
>
> want to. Now I hear Israel is claiming if they elect to bomb Iraq
>
> they are not going to tell the USA first. Bullshit. Israel is a
>
> puppet for the US, and sometimes I think it works the other way around
>
> too. Let's face it, most of Israel's leaders since that state was
>
> born, or founded, or instituted, or whatever one chooses to call it,
>
> have been of European blood, perhaps German or Russian, whatever lands
>
> the gypsies wandered through before needlessly settling down in Israel
>
> when New York City is already their home base. Why don't they just
>
> leave and then whatever happens with the Arabs, at least the jews of
>
> Israel won't be blamed for it. I'm sick of hearing about the precious
>
> Israeli state. The Palestinian crybabies also get on my nerves even
>
> though I'm half arab. But overall I'd have to side with the arabs
>
> over the jews if the US stayed out of it and just let the ancient
>
> rivals have another go at it.
>
I just wish that Israel would agree to restore the lines to the 1967 borders, with two exceptions. Israel should continue to have control over the Golan Heights--Syria cannot be trusted--and Jerusalem should be a shared city by declaration of the UN. "Land for Peace." The Palestinians should have two states, Gaza, and Palestine (the West Bank). I'd be far happier to contribute my tax dollars to Israel if they'd contract their borders to 1967. Perhaps part of the plan would allow for a few Israeli military bases in the West Bank, but all the *Settlers* need to go back to Israel proper. Israel could be allowed to keep the Golan, but allow autonomy for the population, and if/when Syria becomes a reasonable democracy, return the Golan Heights on condition that it be demilitarized.

Jerusalem is holy to three religions. It could/should stand as a symbol for peaceful coexistence. It should not be a political capital for any nation. Jewish settlers should hand over their land and homes intact to Palestinians in exchange for land and homes in Israel, and Palestinians should abdicate the concept of "Right of Return."

I'm not a Jew or a Muslim, and I'm only a Christian by culture and association, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am an American taxpayer, a citizen of the world (as well as a citizen of a nation whose constitution embraces religious tolerance), and I'm a humanitarian who thinks that people throughout the area in dispute should get to live their lives in a lot less fear than they currently do. Shalom, Salaam, Peace.
>
> TJ

--Bryan

On Aug 27, 10:54*pm, Bryan > wrote:

> I just wish that Israel would agree to restore the lines to the 1967 borders, with two exceptions. *Israel should continue to have control over the Golan Heights--Syria cannot be trusted--and Jerusalem should be a shared city by declaration of the UN. *"Land for Peace." *The Palestinians should have two states, Gaza, and Palestine (the West Bank). *I'd be far happier to contribute my tax dollars to Israel if they'd contract their borders to 1967. *Perhaps part of the plan would allow for a few Israeli military bases in the West Bank, but all the *Settlers* need to go back to Israel proper. *Israel could be allowed to keep the Golan, but allow autonomy for the population, and if/when Syria becomes a reasonable democracy, return the Golan Heights on condition that it be demilitarized.
>
> Jerusalem is holy to three religions. *It could/should stand as a symbol for peaceful coexistence. *It should not be a political capital for any nation. *Jewish settlers should hand over their land and homes intact to Palestinians in exchange for land and homes in Israel, and Palestinians should abdicate the concept of "Right of Return."
>
> I'm not a Jew or a Muslim, and I'm only a Christian by culture and association, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am an American taxpayer, a citizen of the world (as well as a citizen of a nation whose constitution embraces religious tolerance), and I'm a humanitarian who thinks that people throughout the area in dispute should get to live their lives in a lot less fear than they currently do. *Shalom, Salaam, Peace.


I'm too have no dog in this fight, only mentioning I was half
arab. How can we claim to know the real reasons behind conflict in
every part of the world? Even expert historians are getting their
facts second hand. I don't care what the squabble is about or when it
started, I was merely sarcastically yet truthfully suggesting that
there's something greedy and sinister about setting up a homeland in
the middle of foreign territory when your people are already
established and doing well in other parts of the world such as for
example New York City and Paris and a bunch of other places. Why do
these gypsies need their own homeland? I ask that of the jewish
people. But maybe deep down I think the idea of borders and owning
land is inherently wrong for any society. At the same time I am a
hypocrite like everyone else because even I as a self-proclaimed
border hater would probably set up my own little bordered territory if
I had something to put in it.

TJ

On Aug 27, 10:54*pm, Bryan > wrote:

> I just wish that Israel would agree to restore the lines to the 1967 borders, with two exceptions. *Israel should continue to have control over the Golan Heights--Syria cannot be trusted--and Jerusalem should be a shared city by declaration of the UN. *"Land for Peace." *The Palestinians should have two states, Gaza, and Palestine (the West Bank). *I'd be far happier to contribute my tax dollars to Israel if they'd contract their borders to 1967. *Perhaps part of the plan would allow for a few Israeli military bases in the West Bank, but all the *Settlers* need to go back to Israel proper. *Israel could be allowed to keep the Golan, but allow autonomy for the population, and if/when Syria becomes a reasonable democracy, return the Golan Heights on condition that it be demilitarized.
>
> Jerusalem is holy to three religions. *It could/should stand as a symbol for peaceful coexistence. *It should not be a political capital for any nation. *Jewish settlers should hand over their land and homes intact to Palestinians in exchange for land and homes in Israel, and Palestinians should abdicate the concept of "Right of Return."
>
> I'm not a Jew or a Muslim, and I'm only a Christian by culture and association, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am an American taxpayer, a citizen of the world (as well as a citizen of a nation whose constitution embraces religious tolerance), and I'm a humanitarian who thinks that people throughout the area in dispute should get to live their lives in a lot less fear than they currently do. *Shalom, Salaam, Peace.


My first response came without me reading your post. I enjoy doing
it that way, selfish as it may seem. But maybe it's not being
selfish, maybe it's me wanting to say what I have to say without first
being influenced by something else. I hate history - the telling of
it, especially the political and military kind - and do not trust it
or put much stock in it, and I especially hate debating it, which to
my dismay is something a lot of people love to do. But now I will
read your post because I am an honest guy who would never ignore the
words of someone else (as long as they don't go on too long.

<reading>

Ok, can't dispute any of what you say, nor can I zealously agree
with it - because the fact is I don't know enough about the situation
to declare myself a judge in the matter. With sufficient information
(about something I really care about), I would make a great judge. So
great in fact, and so honest in fact, that I would never be able to
come to a decision on anything as I struggle not to make the wrong
one. Anyway, I understand it's all a lot of bullshit and that the
arabs don't want the Palestinians any more than Israel does and that
everyone involved is responsible in some way to some extent - but I
just can't understand why people in a fabricated country such as
Israel with leaders who look nothing like the people around them not
understand why they're not wanted around. I'm looking at this as
human nature more than from a historical standpoint. And I really
hate when the biblical crap enters into it - sort of the way people
inject the constitution into everything as some kind of final word. I
hate the, "Yeah, but it was their country before they got kicked out -
It was in the Bible." Things change, move on. I know I'm not happy
with the contrived crybabyism of the jewish people, yet at the same
time I really don't care who takes over the world as long as I get
enough to eat and my master doesn't physically abuse me.

TJ

"Tommy Joe" > wrote in message

> I really don't care who takes over the world as long as I get
> enough to eat and my master doesn't physically abuse me.

I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
democracy was the best form of government.

Like many of my peers I was really shocked by that finding, but once I
thought about it, I realised that none of these young people would have been
too young to think about any form of goverment through the last stages of
the the cold war and since then they have watches the appalling behaviour,
the stupidity and cupidity and shortsightedness of politicians in the
western world. After that I was no longer surprised at their opinion.

Farm1 wrote:

> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
> democracy was the best form of government.

What other choices were they given?

George M. Middius > wrote:

>Farm1 wrote:

>> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
>> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
>> democracy was the best form of government.

>What other choices were they given?

Qausi-democracy where only the winners of ethnic cleansing campaigns
get to vote?



Steve

On Aug 28, 10:08*pm, "Farm1" > wrote:

> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
> democracy was the best form of government.

> Like many of my peers I was really shocked by that finding, but once I
> thought about it, I realised that none of these young people would have been
> too young to think about any form of goverment through the last stages of
> the the cold war and since then they have watches the appalling behaviour,
> the stupidity and cupidity and shortsightedness of politicians in the
> western world. *After that I was no longer surprised at their opinion.


Thanks for laughing, that's what I'm after. It's something to fall
back on in case my actual point fails. Anyway, your story was
interesting as it applies to many things, and is enjoyable in a way -
thinking one way about something and then thinking about it further
and being able to see it from the other side. I like that. Maybe you
would make a good judge too. Not the gavel pounding 'send 'em away
for life' types, just mediators, people with good sense and honesty to
guide their judgments. Guys like you and me. Well, guys like me
anyway, I can't speak for other people - although with your story you
have impressed me with your potential for being a world class judge
like me.

Thanks,
TJ

On Aug 28, 10:32*pm, George M. Middius > wrote:



> What other choices were they given?



Good point. I hate questions that are loaded or confining, a lot
of trickery it seems sometimes. I see your point. My point is, why
even discuss it? I mean what ever is going to happen is going to
happen regardless and more and more people are beginning to see
throughout the world (I hope), that being involved on a large scale
means nothing and if you want to get anything done you have to do it
for yourself on a small level such as keeping your front yard clean
while remembering it's someone elses back yard. I despise politics to
the highest level and will even go so far as to say that my hate for
it contributes as much to society in a good way as those who feel the
opposite, the idiots.

TJ

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
news
> Farm1 wrote:
>
>> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
>> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
>> >> democracy was the best form of government.
>
> What other choices were they given?

I haven't read the report, only the press reports of it. And I'm sorry, I
was 5% too low - it was 39% and it was a poll rather than a survey if that
makes any difference

Here's what I could find reported so you will be able to figure out the 3
options:
"only 39 per cent of Australians aged 18 to 29 believe democracy to be a
superior form of government. 23 per cent think that 'for someone like me, it
doesn't matter what kind of government we have'. A staggering 37 per cent
reckon non-democratic rule, well, rules."

"Tommy Joe" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 28, 10:08 pm, "Farm1" > wrote:

> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
> democracy was the best form of government.

> Like many of my peers I was really shocked by that finding, but once I
> thought about it, I realised that none of these young people would have
> been
> too young to think about any form of goverment through the last stages of
> the the cold war and since then they have watches the appalling behaviour,
> the stupidity and cupidity and shortsightedness of politicians in the
> western world. After that I was no longer surprised at their opinion.


Thanks for laughing, that's what I'm after. It's something to fall
back on in case my actual point fails. Anyway, your story was
interesting as it applies to many things, and is enjoyable in a way -
thinking one way about something and then thinking about it further
and being able to see it from the other side. I like that. Maybe you
would make a good judge too. Not the gavel pounding 'send 'em away
for life' types, just mediators, people with good sense and honesty to
guide their judgments. Guys like you and me. Well, guys like me
anyway, I can't speak for other people - although with your story you
have impressed me with your potential for being a world class judge
like me.
__________________________________
Well this guy is of the female variety so does that make me a guyess?.

Olive oil is a fat obtained from the olive (the fruit of Olea europaea; family Oleaceae), a traditional tree crop of the Mediterranean Basin. The oil is produced by grinding whole olives and extracting the oil by mechanical or chemical means. It is commonly used in cooking, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, and soaps and as a fuel for traditional oil lamps. Olive oil is used throughout the world, but especially in the Mediterranean countries.

Steve Pope wrote:

> >> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
> >> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
> >> democracy was the best form of government.
>
> >What other choices were they given?
>
> Qausi-democracy where only the winners of ethnic cleansing campaigns
> get to vote?

Well, that's half a democracy. In the U.S., we have the other half.

True democracy is as much a pipe dream as true communism. OTOH, a
little democracy is better than any other type of governance, at least
thus far in human history.

Anyway, maybe Farm will supply the actual answer.

Farm1 wrote:
>
> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
> democracy was the best form of government.
>
> Like many of my peers I was really shocked by that finding, but once I
> thought about it, I realised that none of these young people would have been
> too young to think about any form of goverment through the last stages of
> the the cold war and since then they have watches the appalling behaviour,
> the stupidity and cupidity and shortsightedness of politicians in the
> western world. After that I was no longer surprised at their opinion.

So either they've stopped teaching history in elementary school through
high school or nothing's changed in that most students promptly forget
all of the material in their courses when they move on to the next year.
Thus most don't know any history because they've forgotten their school
courses. "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Every form of government fails one way or another. This is something
people who work from ideology don't learn. Thus the form of government
needs to evolve continuously. Maybe some day a form will be evolved
that is stable. There are many forms that are stable for several times
the span of a human life so it takes being a history learner to even be
able to tell the differnce.

When it comes down to it diets work like that as well. Except the part
about lasting longer than a few years.

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:12:14 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
> wrote:

>Farm1 wrote:
>>
>> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
>> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree that
>> democracy was the best form of government.
>>
>> Like many of my peers I was really shocked by that finding, but once I
>> thought about it, I realised that none of these young people would have been
>> too young to think about any form of goverment through the last stages of
>> the the cold war and since then they have watches the appalling behaviour,
>> the stupidity and cupidity and shortsightedness of politicians in the
>> western world. After that I was no longer surprised at their opinion.
>
>So either they've stopped teaching history in elementary school through
>high school or nothing's changed in that most students promptly forget
>all of the material in their courses when they move on to the next year.
>Thus most don't know any history because they've forgotten their school
>courses. "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
>

I propose that none of that is true-- but the pollster set out with
what they wanted to prove and asked the questions accordingly.

I sure wouldn't want a pure democracy in the US-- things are screwed
up enough with the representative one we have.

>Every form of government fails one way or another. This is something
>people who work from ideology don't learn. Thus the form of government
>needs to evolve continuously. Maybe some day a form will be evolved
>that is stable. There are many forms that are stable for several times
>the span of a human life so it takes being a history learner to even be
>able to tell the differnce.
>

How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of gov't but it
is way better than the #2 one."

Jim

George M. Middius wrote:
>
> True democracy is as much a pipe dream as true communism.

Maybe you mean "direct" democracy? Republics are "true" democracies to
the extent they live by their own systems. Which is a pretty good
definition by example because the Soviet Union had a constitution that
was very noble but it was largely ignored by the Communist party.

> OTOH, a
> little democracy is better than any other type of governance, at least
> thus far in human history.

I think it was Mark Twain who said "Democracy is the worst form of
government. Except for all of the other forms of government."

Carefully crafted limited democracies that have some version of republic
are the ones that have worked the least bad so far. Switzerland is by
far the oldest and thus the best example in the world.

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of gov't but it
> is way better than the #2 one."

I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill: "Democracy
is the worst form of government, except for all the others."