George M. Middius > wrote in
:

> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
>> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of gov't
>> but it is way better than the #2 one."
>
> I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill:
> "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the
> others."

More accurately, Churchill is believed by some to have actually
said:

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government
except all the others that have been tried."

This, however, cannot be confirmed as it is not listed in the
quotes (and quotes falsely attributed) on the Churchill Centre and
Museum website, and one would think it would be.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/lear...ations/famous-
quotations-and-stories

http://tinyurl.com/7sgtlpk

There are many quotes which one can say that Churchill wished he
had said, like the "rum, sodomy and the lash" quote or others
erroneously attributed to him like the abominable "Conservative by
the time you're 35".

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Pope wrote:
>
>> >> I had to laugh at that comment because just recently a survey of young
>> >> people in my country (Australia) found that 34% of them didn't agree
>> >> that
>> >> democracy was the best form of government.
>>
>> >What other choices were they given?
>>
>> Qausi-democracy where only the winners of ethnic cleansing campaigns
>> get to vote?
>
> Well, that's half a democracy. In the U.S., we have the other half.
>
> True democracy is as much a pipe dream as true communism. OTOH, a
> little democracy is better than any other type of governance, at least
> thus far in human history.
>
> Anyway, maybe Farm will supply the actual answer.

Already done.
>

"Doug Freyburger" > wrote in message

> I think it was Mark Twain who said "Democracy is the worst form of
> government. Except for all of the other forms of government."

Not Mark Twain. It was Winston Churchill who said that in a speech in the
House of Commons.

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
>> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of gov't but it
>> is way better than the #2 one."
>
> I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill: "Democracy
> is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

Mutter, mutter. Note to self: 'read rest of thread before using more band
width with a response already given......'

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
> George M. Middius > wrote in
>> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>
>>> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of gov't
>>> but it is way better than the #2 one."
>>
>> I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill:
>> "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the
>> others."
>
> More accurately, Churchill is believed by some to have actually
> said:
>
> "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government
> except all the others that have been tried."

Actually what Churchill did say according to the "Oxford Dictionary of
Quotations" is:
'Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that
have been tried from time to time.'

> This, however, cannot be confirmed as it is not listed in the
> quotes (and quotes falsely attributed) on the Churchill Centre and
> Museum website, and one would think it would be.

It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag...all%20time.pdf

> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/lear...ations/famous-
> quotations-and-stories
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7sgtlpk
>
> There are many quotes which one can say that Churchill wished he
> had said, like the "rum, sodomy and the lash" quote or others
> erroneously attributed to him like the abominable "Conservative by
> the time you're 35".

According to Harold Nicholson's diary of 17 August 1950, Churchill
supposedly said "Naval Traditions? Monstrous. Nothing but rum, sodomy,
prayers and the lash."

"Farm1" > wrote in
:

> "Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
>> George M. Middius > wrote in
>>> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>>
>>>> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of
>>>> gov't but it is way better than the #2 one."
>>>
>>> I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill:
>>> "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all
>>> the others."
>>
>> More accurately, Churchill is believed by some to have
>> actually said:
>>
>> "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of
>> government except all the others that have been tried."
>
> Actually what Churchill did say according to the "Oxford
> Dictionary of Quotations" is:
> 'Democracy is the worst form of government except all those
> other forms that have been tried from time to time.'

No, and the item you brought forth confirms what I quoted.

> It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag...ducators/wc%20
> statesman%20for%20all%20time.pdf

So, to recap, someone (not Churchill) said: 'Democracy is the worst
form of government except all those other forms that have been
tried from time to time.'

Churchill quoted it in Europe Unite explicitely prefacing it with
the words "...it has been said that..."

"Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of
government except all those other forms that have been tried from
time to time."

He is clearly saying that it was said in the past by someone other
than him. He is quoting, and therefore it cannot be attributed to
him.

>> There are many quotes which one can say that Churchill wished
>> he had said, like the "rum, sodomy and the lash" quote or
>> others erroneously attributed to him like the abominable
>> "Conservative by the time you're 35".
>
> According to Harold Nicholson's diary of 17 August 1950,
> Churchill supposedly said "Naval Traditions? Monstrous.
> Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers and the lash."

You say supposedly, I say not. No doubt he was again quoting and
they were attributed to him by Nicholson. Wouldn't be the first
time. The Churchill Museum site says:

""The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the
lash." - -- Churchill's assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said
that although Churchill had not uttered these words, he wished he
had."

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:47:16 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
> No, not Popeye's girlfriend. I'm talking about EEVO here.
> Well tell me some more!!1
>
>
> As you all might remember, I've always hated the nasty stuff....and yet most
>
> of the world uses it often.
>
>
>
> After all my years on this earth, my only experience with EVOO was Pompeians
>
> and it was so strong tasting and nasty, I rarely used it. Then when I
>
> finally tried it again, my ancient bottle was probably rancid so that
>
> reinforced my anti_EVOO opinion. ;o
>
>
>
> I finally bought a new bottle yesterday....a new brand and actually even
>
> cheaper. It was so cheap, I figured that even if I didn't like it, no big
>
> loss. An 8.5oz bottle of it for only $2.49.
>
>
>
> Well, as soon as I got home, I tasted it. Very mild flavor and not so
>
> overpowering as the Pompeian brand. I think I might start using EVOO much
>
> more often....my eyes have been opened.
>
>
>
> Here's the cheap brand that I bought, in case you are wondering:
>
> http://www.wildharvestorganic.com/se...&productId=208
>
>
>
> Gary

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
...
> "Farm1" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
>>> George M. Middius > wrote in
>>>> Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How does that quote go?-- "We have a terrible system of
>>>>> gov't but it is way better than the #2 one."
>>>>
>>>> I think the one about democracy is attributed to Churchill:
>>>> "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all
>>>> the others."
>>>
>>> More accurately, Churchill is believed by some to have
>>> actually said:
>>>
>>> "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of
>>> government except all the others that have been tried."
>>
>> Actually what Churchill did say according to the "Oxford
>> Dictionary of Quotations" is:
>> 'Democracy is the worst form of government except all those
>> other forms that have been tried from time to time.'
>
> No, and the item you brought forth confirms what I quoted.

OK, if you want to play sematics, I'll play for a while.

>> It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
>> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag...ducators/wc%20
>> statesman%20for%20all%20time.pdf
>
> So, to recap, someone (not Churchill) said: 'Democracy is the worst
> form of government except all those other forms that have been
> tried from time to time.'

Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill. What we don't
know is the source to whom he was referring. We don't know if Churchill was
actually quoting someone else or if the source he was referring to was
himself.

> Churchill quoted it in Europe Unite explicitely prefacing it with
> the words "...it has been said that..."

He said it in the House of Commons on 11 May 1947. See Hansard as cited:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...arliament-bill

> "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of
> government except all those other forms that have been tried from
> time to time."
>
> He is clearly saying that it was said in the past by someone other
> than him. He is quoting, and therefore it cannot be attributed to
> him.

Semantics noted. Churchill did however say it. As I have already stated,
we don't know if he is quoting someone and we also don't know if he used it
merely as an add in as a device such as is often used in speeches. I've
done it myself so don't see why someone like Churchill wouldn't have done
so.

>>> There are many quotes which one can say that Churchill wished
>>> he had said, like the "rum, sodomy and the lash" quote or
>>> others erroneously attributed to him like the abominable
>>> "Conservative by the time you're 35".
>>
>> According to Harold Nicholson's diary of 17 August 1950,
>> Churchill supposedly said "Naval Traditions? Monstrous.
>> Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers and the lash."
>
> You say supposedly, I say not. No doubt he was again quoting and
> they were attributed to him by Nicholson. Wouldn't be the first
> time. The Churchill Museum site says:
>
> ""The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the
> lash." - -- Churchill's assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said
> that although Churchill had not uttered these words, he wished he
> had."

Montague-Brown did not become Churchill's assistant until several years
AFTER Nicholson recorded Churchill's comment in his diary.

You are prepared to bleieve what an assistant says many years after someone
else records a Churchill saying but yet choose to play semantics about what
Churchill is recorded as saying in Hansard.

This is an example of classic usenet.

"Farm1" > wrote in
:

>>> It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
>>> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag..._educators/wc%
>>> 20 statesman%20for%20all%20time.pdf
>>
>> So, to recap, someone (not Churchill) said: 'Democracy is the
>> worst form of government except all those other forms that
>> have been tried from time to time.'
>
> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring. We
> don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else or
> if the source he was referring to was himself.

But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the first
person to say it, otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.

> Montague-Brown did not become Churchill's assistant until
> several years AFTER Nicholson recorded Churchill's comment in
> his diary.
>
> You are prepared to bleieve what an assistant says many years
> after someone else records a Churchill saying but yet choose
> to play semantics about what Churchill is recorded as saying
> in Hansard.
>
> This is an example of classic usenet.

Whadsamadda? You got your short pants in a knot?

Just because Montague-Browne (note spelling) came along AFTER
Nicholson recorded it does not mean that Churchill did not admit
to him he was not the originator of the quote. He didn't have to
be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge. So
I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he was not
the originator and therefore the quote cannot be attributed to
him...and at some point, he admitted that.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
> "Farm1" > wrote in
>
>>>> It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
>>>> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag..._educators/wc%
>>>> 20 statesman%20for%20all%20time.pdf
>>>
>>> So, to recap, someone (not Churchill) said: 'Democracy is the
>>> worst form of government except all those other forms that
>>> have been tried from time to time.'
>>
>> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
>> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring. We
>> don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else or
>> if the source he was referring to was himself.
>
> But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the first
> person to say it,

Indeed.

otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
> given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
> have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
> quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.

Just because an attributed quote included "it has been said" does not mean
that the person saying that is not the originator.

Unless there is proof that someone else did say it then, like all good
etymological dictionaries, the person who can be prooved to be the first
person to say it IS the orginator.

If you wish to insist that Churchill is wrongly attributed as having said it
first, you'd need to know for certain that he wasn't the first to say it.
So, if it wasn't Churchill, who do you say it was?

As it stands, unless you can provide a cite that "it has [indeed] been said"
by someone else, as opposed to Churchill just using the "has been said" as a
device to add emphasis taht he wasnt alone in his thinking about this thing
called Democracy, then the record in Hansard is proof positive that it was
indeed Churchill who said it first.

Reinsertion of snipped part of post to show discussion about a different
Churchill quote:
">> According to Harold Nicholson's diary of 17 August 1950,
>> Churchill supposedly said "Naval Traditions? Monstrous.
>> Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers and the lash."
>
> You say supposedly, I say not. No doubt he was again quoting and
> they were attributed to him by Nicholson. Wouldn't be the first
> time. The Churchill Museum site says:
>
> ""The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the
> lash." - -- Churchill's assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said
> that although Churchill had not uttered these words, he wished he
> had."
end resinsertion.

>> Montague-Brown did not become Churchill's assistant until
>> several years AFTER Nicholson recorded Churchill's comment in
>> his diary.
>>
>> You are prepared to bleieve what an assistant says many years
>> after someone else records a Churchill saying but yet choose
>> to play semantics about what Churchill is recorded as saying
>> in Hansard.
>>
>> This is an example of classic usenet.
>
> Whadsamadda? You got your short pants in a knot?

Of course not. Just amused that classic usenet always seems to invariably
arise.

> Just because Montague-Browne (note spelling) came along AFTER
> Nicholson recorded it does not mean that Churchill did not admit
> to him he was not the originator of the quote.

I certainly think that is a possibility, however I am also wondering what
year Churchill is reputed to have said it to M-B and how good his memory was
by that stage.

I also note that neither M-B or the Churchill Museum site you quote didn't
even get the quote right that Nicolson included in his diary.

He didn't have to
> be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge. So
> I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he was not
> the originator and therefore the quote cannot be attributed to
> him...and at some point, he admitted that.

There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill said it
anywhere, or at any time.

Anyway, by the time Nicolson wrote the cite in his diary, Churchill would
have already been 75 years old and had already suffered his first stroke.
The year after Nicolson entered the quote in his diary, Churchill suffered
another stroke. I have no idea if M-B would be a reliable source for
anything but I do know that Nicholson does have such a reputation.

"Farm1" > wrote in
:

> "Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
>> "Farm1" > wrote in
>>
>>> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
>>> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring.
>>> We don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else
>>> or if the source he was referring to was himself.
>>
>> But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the
>> first person to say it,
>
> Indeed.
>
>> otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
>> given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
>> have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
>> quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.
>
> Just because an attributed quote included "it has been said"
> does not mean that the person saying that is not the
> originator.

I can see that coming to terms with the possibility that Churchill
did not say your favourite quote is hard on you.

>> He didn't have to
>> be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge.
>> So I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he
>> was not the originator and therefore the quote cannot be
>> attributed to him...and at some point, he admitted that.
>
> There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill
> said it anywhere, or at any time.

Which is not actually a valid argument.

> Anyway, by the time Nicolson wrote the cite in his diary,
> Churchill would have already been 75 years old and had already
> suffered his first stroke. The year after Nicolson entered the
> quote in his diary, Churchill suffered another stroke. I have
> no idea if M-B would be a reliable source for anything but I
> do know that Nicholson does have such a reputation.

Yes, you have no idea...what you are attributing to Nicholson is
the ability to record, not to attribute. Perhaps he walked in
half-way through the conversation and missed the part where Winston
was saying to others "You'll never guess what I heard smythe-ffyffe
say the other day..."

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:40:52 -0500, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

> "Farm1" > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
> >> "Farm1" > wrote in
> >>
> >>> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
> >>> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring.
> >>> We don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else
> >>> or if the source he was referring to was himself.
> >>
> >> But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the
> >> first person to say it,
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> >> otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
> >> given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
> >> have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
> >> quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.
> >
> > Just because an attributed quote included "it has been said"
> > does not mean that the person saying that is not the
> > originator.
>
> I can see that coming to terms with the possibility that Churchill
> did not say your favourite quote is hard on you.
>
> >> He didn't have to
> >> be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge.
> >> So I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he
> >> was not the originator and therefore the quote cannot be
> >> attributed to him...and at some point, he admitted that.
> >
> > There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill
> > said it anywhere, or at any time.
>
> Which is not actually a valid argument.

The rest of us can see that you're only arguing for the sake of
argument and can understand the difference between being "attributed
to" and being documented as the original person to make the statement.
IOW: the only person who cares enough to drag this on is you and
you're wrong.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

Michel Boucher wrote:
>
> "Farm1" wrote:

> > Anyway, by the time Nicolson wrote the cite in his diary,
> > Churchill would have already been 75 years old and had already
> > suffered his first stroke. The year after Nicolson entered the
> > quote in his diary, Churchill suffered another stroke. I have
> > no idea if M-B would be a reliable source for anything but I
> > do know that Nicholson does have such a reputation.
>
> Yes, you have no idea...what you are attributing to Nicholson is
> the ability to record, not to attribute. Perhaps he walked in
> half-way through the conversation and missed the part where Winston
> was saying to others "You'll never guess what I heard smythe-ffyffe
> say the other day..."

YAWN with the Churchill quoting. Give it a rest, you two.

Here's a real Churchill quote for you:

1) "The dead bird does not leave the nest."
- Winston Churchill, on being advised that his fly was open.

G.

sf > wrote in
:

>> > There is no suggestion that anyone else other than
>> > Churchill said it anywhere, or at any time.
>>
>> Which is not actually a valid argument.
>
> The rest of us can see that you're only arguing for the sake
> of argument and can understand the difference between being
> "attributed to" and being documented as the original person to
> make the statement. IOW: the only person who cares enough to
> drag this on is you and you're wrong.

Right...sure...I can see you've never worked for a publisher, or at
least one that game a damn.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

Michel Boucher wrote:

> >> > There is no suggestion that anyone else other than
> >> > Churchill said it anywhere, or at any time.
> >>
> >> Which is not actually a valid argument.
> >
> > The rest of us can see that you're only arguing for the sake
> > of argument and can understand the difference between being
> > "attributed to" and being documented as the original person to
> > make the statement. IOW: the only person who cares enough to
> > drag this on is you and you're wrong.
>
> Right...sure...I can see you've never worked for a publisher, or at
> least one that game a damn.

Kudos for trimming the quoted text in this pointless argument. (You've
already lost, but no point in giving up since Usenet is free.)

George M. Middius > wrote in
:

> Kudos for trimming the quoted text in this pointless argument.
> (You've already lost, but no point in giving up since Usenet
> is free.)

So is your opinion :-)

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 2012-09-01 16:16:34 +0000, Michel Boucher said:

>> The rest of us can see that you're only arguing for the sake
>> of argument and can understand the difference between being
>> "attributed to" and being documented as the original person to
>> make the statement. IOW: the only person who cares enough to
>> drag this on is you and you're wrong.
>
> Right...sure...I can see you've never worked for a publisher, or at
> least one that game a damn.

ZING!

gtr wrote:

> >> The rest of us can see that you're only arguing for the sake
> >> of argument and can understand the difference between being
> >> "attributed to" and being documented as the original person to
> >> make the statement. IOW: the only person who cares enough to
> >> drag this on is you and you're wrong.
> >
> > Right...sure...I can see you've never worked for a publisher, or at
> > least one that game a damn.
>
> ZING!

Nah... This isn't a publishing forum. Everybody recognizes the line as
being spoken by Churchill. Whether he cribbed it somewhere doesn't
matter because whoever may have said it earlier didn't have
Churchill's weight. Next time there's a thread about chocolate cake,
watch for me to say "I can resist everything except temptation." Will
you then commend whoever points out it wasn't my line, or will you nod
in recognition of the thought?

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
...
> "Farm1" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
>>> "Farm1" > wrote in
>>>
>>>> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
>>>> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring.
>>>> We don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else
>>>> or if the source he was referring to was himself.
>>>
>>> But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the
>>> first person to say it,
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>>> otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
>>> given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
>>> have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
>>> quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.
>>
>> Just because an attributed quote included "it has been said"
>> does not mean that the person saying that is not the
>> originator.
>
> I can see that coming to terms with the possibility that Churchill
> did not say your favourite quote is hard on you.

Well if you 'see' that then you 'see' wrong.

>>> He didn't have to
>>> be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge.
>>> So I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he
>>> was not the originator and therefore the quote cannot be
>>> attributed to him...and at some point, he admitted that.
>>
>> There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill
>> said it anywhere, or at any time.
>
> Which is not actually a valid argument.

:-)) It's very valid if we are discussing attributions.

>> Anyway, by the time Nicolson wrote the cite in his diary,
>> Churchill would have already been 75 years old and had already
>> suffered his first stroke. The year after Nicolson entered the
>> quote in his diary, Churchill suffered another stroke. I have
>> no idea if M-B would be a reliable source for anything but I
>> do know that Nicholson does have such a reputation.
>
> Yes, you have no idea...

Tut tut. No need to be insulting just because you don't like what I have to
say.

what you are attributing to Nicholson is
> the ability to record, not to attribute. Perhaps he walked in
> half-way through the conversation and missed the part where Winston
> was saying to others "You'll never guess what I heard smythe-ffyffe
> say the other day..."

That's a possibility, but why didn't Winnie tell M-B that it was
smythe-ffyffe who said it? And there should be some reference by way of
attibution if sythe-fyffe was known to have said it. There isn't such an
attribution or I'm sure you would have mentioned it rather than to have
resorted to insult.

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.

True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in fact having a
discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so is much of what goes on
here.

Everybody recognizes the line as
> being spoken by Churchill. Whether he cribbed it somewhere doesn't
> matter because whoever may have said it earlier didn't have
> Churchill's weight. Next time there's a thread about chocolate cake,
> watch for me to say "I can resist everything except temptation." Will
> you then commend whoever points out it wasn't my line, or will you nod
> in recognition of the thought?

Now, you aren't really so needy that you are already lining up responses to
your future posts are you George?

"Farm1" > wrote in
:

>> Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
>
> True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in
> fact having a discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so
> is much of what goes on here.

Who's Michael?

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

"Farm1" > wrote in news:k1uml4$i8i$1@dont-
email.me:

>>> There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill
>>> said it anywhere, or at any time.
>>
>> Which is not actually a valid argument.
>
>:-)) It's very valid if we are discussing attributions.

Not really because as is the case with many people, they are
credited with saying things which in fact were said by others and
they are quoting. So what you can say about something like this
quote is that Churchill quoted it (because he says so himself
that that is what he is doing). Someone who was the originator
of the quote can repeat it without prefacing it with a statement
such as "As has been said before..."

There is nothing wrong with saying Churchill was quoting. He
certainly didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

The silliest instance of overattribution was a witness before a
Parliamentary committee, who in presenting his brief, prefaced
something with "and I quote" when he was in fact simply reading
his own brief. Perhaps he meant to say "and I wish to emphasize
this" but the two expressions are far from synonymous. Maybe if
he had used "air quotes"...

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 08:30:26 -0500, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

> "Farm1" > wrote in
> :
>
> >> Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
> >
> > True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in
> > fact having a discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so
> > is much of what goes on here.
>
> Who's Michael?

Everybody here knows except you.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

Farm1 wrote:

> > Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
>
> True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in fact having a
> discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so is much of what goes on
> here.

I must have missed the part where one of you established the context
of publication standards. When I trotted out the Churchill quote, the
discussion was still in the casual-anecdote arena.

> > Next time there's a thread about chocolate cake,
> > watch for me to say "I can resist everything except temptation." Will
> > you then commend whoever points out it wasn't my line, or will you nod
> > in recognition of the thought?
>
> Now, you aren't really so needy that you are already lining up responses to
> your future posts are you George?

Always. You can't get the drop on the keen wits of RFC without serious
preparation. Just ask Shelley.

Michel Boucher wrote:

> > True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in
> > fact having a discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so
> > is much of what goes on here.
>
> Who's Michael?

C'est quelqu'un d'autre, celui qui s'est en allée.

sf wrote:
>
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 08:30:26 -0500, Michel Boucher
> > wrote:
>
> > "Farm1" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >> Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
> > >
> > > True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in
> > > fact having a discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so
> > > is much of what goes on here.
> >
> > Who's Michael?
>
> Everybody here knows except you.

He must be having a Winston Churchill moment. hehehh

On 8/27/2012 8:19 PM, Earl wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>> On 8/24/2012 4:28 PM, Gary wrote:
>>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you have
>>>> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive oil
>>>> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.
>>>
>>> Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've
>>> never
>>> been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked
>>> to use
>>> it for:
>>>
>>> 1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until
>>> wilted.
>>
>>
>> Yes, that's something I posted here years ago. Hot spinach salad.
>> Brown the garlic and cook the spinach until just wilted.
>>
>> When I worked at O'Charley's they used to deep fry spinach. OMG that
>> was wonderful! But I don't deep fry anything so... sorry.
>>
>> Jill
> Your resume must be 12 pages long!


I don't list that on my resume, asshole.

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
...
> "Farm1" > wrote in
> :
>
>>> Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
>>
>> True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in
>> fact having a discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so
>> is much of what goes on here.
>
> Who's Michael?

Sorry Michel, I was very sloppy in not getting your name right.

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
> "Farm1" > wrote in news:k1uml4$i8i$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>>>> There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill
>>>> said it anywhere, or at any time.
>>>
>>> Which is not actually a valid argument.
>>
>>:-)) It's very valid if we are discussing attributions.
>
> Not really because as is the case with many people, they are
> credited with saying things which in fact were said by others and
> they are quoting. So what you can say about something like this
> quote is that Churchill quoted it (because he says so himself
> that that is what he is doing).

I would certainly not say that. The best I would say is that the first
known instance of it's use was by Churchill.

Someone who was the originator
> of the quote can repeat it without prefacing it with a statement
> such as "As has been said before..."

Indeed, but no-one ever has been shown to have been the person who can say
that.

> There is nothing wrong with saying Churchill was quoting. He
> certainly didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

Of course there is nothing wrong with saying that Chuchill was quoting,
however as I have said a number of times, there is absolutley no proof that
he was indeed quoting.

You insist that he was quoting but never offer any proof of another person
having said it. I agree that it is possible that he was quoting but it is
also as likely that he might have used it as a devise to add emphasis to his
words aobut democracy.

Either way, until there is proof that someone else did say it, the
originator and thus the person to whom it is attributed must remain as
Churchill. That is how attributions work.

I think you and I have done this subject to death so although it was
interesting, I'll now bow out. I really don't particularly care who said it
but once you raised it as an issue I would now really like to know because I
am always curious. Until however, any alternate proof comes to light, I'm
stuck with it being Churchill. I don't mind that because it means I don't
have to put a correction into my 'Oxford Book of Quotations'.

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
> Farm1 wrote:
>
>> > Nah... This isn't a publishing forum.
>>
>> True, but this is a discussion group and Michael and I were in fact
>> having a
>> discussion. True, we had drifted OT but then so is much of what goes on
>> here.
>
> I must have missed the part where one of you established the context
> of publication standards. When I trotted out the Churchill quote, the
> discussion was still in the casual-anecdote arena.

I didn't wander off into anything to do with publishing so I don't believe
you missed anything there. It was a discussion, perhaps not to your taste
or your interest but this is usenet and I at least found it interesting.
Neither Michel or I managed to garner anything out of it other than what we
both started from but then once again, that is usenet.

>> > Next time there's a thread about chocolate cake,
>> > watch for me to say "I can resist everything except temptation." Will
>> > you then commend whoever points out it wasn't my line, or will you nod
>> > in recognition of the thought?
>>
>> Now, you aren't really so needy that you are already lining up responses
>> to
>> your future posts are you George?
>
> Always. You can't get the drop on the keen wits of RFC without serious
> preparation. Just ask Shelley.

LOL. Good point!

jmcquown wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 8:19 PM, Earl wrote:
>> jmcquown wrote:
>>> On 8/24/2012 4:28 PM, Gary wrote:
>>>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you
>>>>> have
>>>>> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive
>>>>> oil
>>>>> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've
>>>> never
>>>> been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked
>>>> to use
>>>> it for:
>>>>
>>>> 1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until
>>>> wilted.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that's something I posted here years ago. Hot spinach salad.
>>> Brown the garlic and cook the spinach until just wilted.
>>>
>>> When I worked at O'Charley's they used to deep fry spinach. OMG that
>>> was wonderful! But I don't deep fry anything so... sorry.
>>>
>>> Jill
>> Your resume must be 12 pages long!
>
>
> I don't list that on my resume, asshole.
So it's 11-1/2 pages, eh?

Olive Earl wrote:
>jmcquown wrote:
>> Olive Earl wrote:
>>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>> Gary wrote:
>>>>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just because so many people talk about olive oil doesn't mean you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to use it, or like it for that matter. I don't use a lot of olive
>>>>>> oil
>>>>>> when I cook. Sure, I keep a bottle on hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jill, here's a delayed response. As you've read in the past, I've
>>>>> never
>>>>> been a big fan of olive oil but there are 3 things I've always liked
>>>>> to use
>>>>> it for:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) sauteed minced garlic in EVOO and quick cook fresh spinach until
>>>>> wilted.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's something I posted here years ago. Hot spinach salad.
>>>> Brown the garlic and cook the spinach until just wilted.
>>>>
>>>> When I worked at O'Charley's they used to deep fry spinach. OMG that
>>>> was wonderful! But I don't deep fry anything so... sorry.
>>>>
>>>> Jill
>>> Your resume must be 12 pages long!
>>
>> I don't list that on my resume, asshole.
>
>So it's 11-1/2 pages, eh?

Olive Earl... you GREASE BALL!

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . .

"Farm1" > wrote in
:

>> Not really because as is the case with many people, they are
>> credited with saying things which in fact were said by others
>> and they are quoting. So what you can say about something
>> like this quote is that Churchill quoted it (because he says
>> so himself that that is what he is doing).
>
> I would certainly not say that. The best I would say is that
> the first known instance of it's use was by Churchill.

But as we have already discovered, he himself says it was said by
someone else. It needn't be attributed at all, or if you insist on
a name, here's one that's already in the Bartlett: Anonymous.

And that is my last word on it.

P.S.: Apology excepted, and accept my apologies for the snippiness.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message

> P.S.: Apology excepted,

???? Eh? Do you really mean excepted?

"Farm1" > wrote in news:k249gb$e5t$1@dont-
email.me:

>> P.S.: Apology excepted,
>
> ???? Eh? Do you really mean excepted?

Odd...Freudian slip perhaps? :-) "accepted" is what it should have
read.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober