Those of you with different designations for the fat content of dairy
products, my apologies - I only know the American names for these
things.

We saw a recipe on television which we decided to try last night -
printed out Alton Brown's Baked Stuffed Flounder, and it was
_delicious_ - but with one problem in that both my wife and our oldest
son found it too rich and had a little tummy ache afterwards. (I, OTOH,
thought it was grand and felt full and happy afterwards and even weighed
less this morning - a win/win if there ever was one.)

We were wondering about using less dairy fat - the recipe calls for 1
cup of heavy cream. We keep half-and-half in the house, and whole milk,
too, so the obvious choices are to replace all the heavy cream with
half-and-half, or to use half heavy cream and half whole milk which, I'm
guessing, works out to at least approximately the same thing.

What and how much thickener would we need to add to compensate for the
reduced fat? My wife eats gluten-free so we'd use either corn starch or
tapioca flour (or something else someone might suggest here) and not
wheat flour.

NB: The recipe also calls for 10 oz. of cheddar cheese and we aren't
planning on changing that, although if a change is in order due to the
reduced heavy cream, that's an option, too, e.g., perhaps using less
half-and-half but a bit more cheese makes it work out OK - I don't know.

Here's a link to the recipe:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...lounder-recipe

Many thanks in advance.

-S-

Andy wrote:
> Steve,
>
> John Cicarello (sp?) made a dish on the Food Channel this week and
> he used heavy cream instead of whipping cream for the higher
> butterfat content.
>
> That sounds like a middle-of-to-road option between half & half and
> heavy cream. Anyone??
>
> Best,
>
> Andy

We whip heavy cream here to make whipped cream - not sure what the
difference would be.

-S-

Andy wrote:

> John Cicarello (sp?) made a dish on the Food Channel this week and he used
> heavy cream instead of whipping cream for the higher butterfat content.
> That sounds like a middle-of-to-road option between half & half and heavy
> cream. Anyone??

This is staggeringly simple. Why the aversion to looking it up? I know
you're online, so you why don't you just google it?

Here's a hint: One half of half & half is cream. The other half is
something else. See if you can connect the dots.

I have to say I dislike that recipe-cheese and fish and cream just do
not go together imo. However I clicked on the link below that for
Emeril's idea of stuffed flounder (recipe below) and thought it looked
good.
I buy from Sam's Club "Treasures of the Sea" frozen, lightly breaded,
flounder fillets. They are very thin fillets, the breading/seasoning is
perfect, and I can actually pop 3 of them into my toaster oven for
20minutes for an ultra quick easy prep.

I had never thought of letting them thaw then lining them with a filling
and rolling them up but it sounds good. I am more likely to place a
filling between two fillets in a stack presentation since I am not sure
how well such thin fillets will roll up.

I edited this (which is hard to do with a webtv lol) and my editing
would probably not be to Emeril's liking but I hate their website it
needs a good editor.

Ingredients

Four 6-8oz skinned deboned flounder fillets

2 1/2 Tbsp butter plus 3 Tbsp butter

1/2 pound crabmeat

1/4 cup minced yellow onion

2 Tbsp minced celery

2 Tbsp minced bell pepper

1 Tbsp minced parsley

1 1/2 tsp minced garlic

2 Tbsp mayonnaise

1 egg, lightly beaten

4 tsp lemon juice

1 lemon, thinly sliced

1/2 tsp Worcestershire

3/4 tsp hot sauce

3/4 cup crushed Ritz crackers

creole seasoning (Emeril's Essence)
salt
black pepper

Preheat oven 350 degrees F.

Place crabmeat in large bowl and season with 1 tsp creole seasoning.
Cover and refrigerate.

In a medium skillet, melt 2 1/2 Tbsp butter over medium-high heat.

Add onion, celery, and bell pepper and cook, stirring, until softened,
about 4 minutes.

Add parsley and garlic, and cook, stirring, for 1 minute. Remove from
heat and let cool.

Add the cooled mixture to the crabmeat and toss gently to combine.

Add the mayonnaise, beaten egg, lemon juice, Worcestershire, and hot
sauce, and stir gently.

Add 1/2 cup of the crushed Ritz, 1/4 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp pepper. Stir
gently, being careful not to break up the crabmeat.

Now, season each fish fillet with creole seasoning and salt and place on
a work surface.

Divide the crabmeat filling evenly among the centers of the fish fillets
and roll the fillets up to encase the filling. Secure with toothpick, if
necessary.

Place the fillets, seam side down, in a buttered shallow baking dish and
top with thin slices of lemon.

Sprinkle the remaining 1/4 cup of the cracker crumbs evenly over the
tops of the fillets. Drizzle with 3 Tbsp of melted butter.

Bake until lightly golden and cooked through, about 20 minutes. Garnish
as desired with parsley and lemon wedges.

z z wrote:
>
> I buy from Sam's Club "Treasures of the Sea" frozen, lightly breaded,
> flounder fillets. They are very thin fillets, the breading/seasoning is
> perfect, and I can actually pop 3 of them into my toaster oven for
> 20minutes for an ultra quick easy prep.

20 minutes in toaster oven for cheap thin flounder fillets
doesn't sound so "ultra quick easy prep" to me.

"Just sayin' "

G.

Why, Gary, I do believe you have a thing for me :-)

z z wrote:
>
> Why, Gary, I do believe you have a thing for me :-)

Heck.. if you really are angie (and not some guy), send pics of
yourself.email me.

You might look exactly like my 2nd wife.
I've only been married once.

G.

"Steve Freides" > wrote in message

> We saw a recipe on television which we decided to try last night - printed
> out Alton Brown's Baked Stuffed Flounder, and it was _delicious_ -
> We were wondering about using less dairy fat - the recipe calls for 1 cup
> of heavy cream. We keep half-and-half in the house, and whole milk, too,
> so the obvious choices are to replace all the heavy cream with
> half-and-half, or to use half heavy cream and half whole milk which, I'm
> guessing, works out to at least approximately the same thing.

I dont' reallys ee any need to use any cream in that recipe. I'd replace
that 'cheese sauce' with a white sauce recipe to which I'd added some cheese
and about a dessert spoon of brandy to save time, or, if I was really going
to be fussy, I'd cook down the wine separately before making the bechamel
sauce.

I also doubt you need so much cheese and certainly not so much cream to get
reasonable facsimile of what the chef was seeking so tat your family dont'
end up with gut problems from such a rich recipe.

I believe there are white sauce recipes for those who are gluten intolerant,
so it might be worth looking for such a recipe online.

Good luck.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:44:49 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
wrote:

>Those of you with different designations for the fat content of dairy
>products, my apologies - I only know the American names for these
>things.
>
>We saw a recipe on television which we decided to try last night -
>printed out Alton Brown's Baked Stuffed Flounder, and it was
>_delicious_ - but with one problem in that both my wife and our oldest
>son found it too rich and had a little tummy ache afterwards. (I, OTOH,
>thought it was grand and felt full and happy afterwards and even weighed
>less this morning - a win/win if there ever was one.)
>
>We were wondering about using less dairy fat - the recipe calls for 1
>cup of heavy cream.
>
>-S-
>
There is no problem. You already know the desired consistency of the
sauce. Go ahead and use plain milk if you want. Make a corn starch
slurry, get the milk hot and add the slurry until it is as thick as
you want. Most cooks don't measure corn starch for cooking anyway.
You are aware that the flavor and texture will change with the change
in dairy product, but I see no problem.
Janet US

Janet Bostwick wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:44:49 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
> wrote:
>
>> Those of you with different designations for the fat content of dairy
>> products, my apologies - I only know the American names for these
>> things.
>>
>> We saw a recipe on television which we decided to try last night -
>> printed out Alton Brown's Baked Stuffed Flounder, and it was
>> _delicious_ - but with one problem in that both my wife and our
>> oldest son found it too rich and had a little tummy ache afterwards.
>> (I, OTOH, thought it was grand and felt full and happy afterwards
>> and even weighed less this morning - a win/win if there ever was
>> one.)
>>
>> We were wondering about using less dairy fat - the recipe calls for 1
>> cup of heavy cream.
>>
>> -S-
>>
> There is no problem. You already know the desired consistency of the
> sauce. Go ahead and use plain milk if you want. Make a corn starch
> slurry, get the milk hot and add the slurry until it is as thick as
> you want. Most cooks don't measure corn starch for cooking anyway.
> You are aware that the flavor and texture will change with the change
> in dairy product, but I see no problem.
> Janet US

Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.

-S-

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:30:51 +1000, "Farm1" >
wrote:

> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>
> > http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ipe/index.html
>
> I dont' reallys see any need to use any cream in that recipe. I'd replace
> that 'cheese sauce' with a white sauce recipe to which I'd added some cheese
> and about a dessert spoon of brandy to save time, or, if I was really going
> to be fussy, I'd cook down the wine separately before making the bechamel
> sauce.
>
> I also doubt you need so much cheese and certainly not so much cream to get
> reasonable facsimile of what the chef was seeking so tat your family dont'
> end up with gut problems from such a rich recipe.
>
> I believe there are white sauce recipes for those who are gluten intolerant,
> so it might be worth looking for such a recipe online.
>
> Good luck.
>

I find that if I want the same consistency, then I need to make a
béchamel to use in place of heavy cream. Sometimes it matters,
sometimes it doesn't. Since this recipe calls for wine, they're using
heavy cream because it won't curdle like regular cream does when it
comes into contact with wine - but the main thing they're doing with
it is making a cheese sauce and skipping the steps of making béchamel
first. I suppose there could be an argument against béchamel based on
carb count or gluten intolerance, but I think they did it just for
pure ease and shaving some time off the recipe.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
US
>
> Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
> make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
> replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
> milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
> some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
> we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
>


Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
cream sauce.

I can't come up with specifics, but I know I have tried to avid heavy cream and the results were awful. So, once or twice a year, I bit the bullet and use the heavy cream and be done with it.

I'm starting to feel the same way about fat free ricotta, sour cream etc. Some recipes need that fat.

If you research this group, I think this subject has been 'beat' to death before. My mother had no truck with anything but heavy cream when she wanted whipped cream on something. As a kid, we fought over licking the beaters.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:51:57 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>US
>>
>> Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
>> make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
>> replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
>> milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
>> some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
>> we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
>>
>
>
>Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
>cream sauce.

How do you make a white sauce without using flour? He said his wife
eats gluten free.
Janet US

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:04:34 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:30:51 +1000, "Farm1" >
>wrote:
>
>> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>>
>> > http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ipe/index.html
>>
>> I dont' reallys see any need to use any cream in that recipe. I'd replace
>> that 'cheese sauce' with a white sauce recipe to which I'd added some cheese
>> and about a dessert spoon of brandy to save time, or, if I was really going
>> to be fussy, I'd cook down the wine separately before making the bechamel
>> sauce.
>>
>> I also doubt you need so much cheese and certainly not so much cream to get
>> reasonable facsimile of what the chef was seeking so tat your family dont'
>> end up with gut problems from such a rich recipe.
>>
>> I believe there are white sauce recipes for those who are gluten intolerant,
>> so it might be worth looking for such a recipe online.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>
>I find that if I want the same consistency, then I need to make a
>béchamel to use in place of heavy cream. Sometimes it matters,
>sometimes it doesn't. Since this recipe calls for wine, they're using
>heavy cream because it won't curdle like regular cream does when it
>comes into contact with wine - but the main thing they're doing with
>it is making a cheese sauce and skipping the steps of making béchamel
>first. I suppose there could be an argument against béchamel based on
>carb count or gluten intolerance, but I think they did it just for
>pure ease and shaving some time off the recipe.

Is there a way to make a bechamel without using flour?
Janet US

On 19/08/2012 4:58 PM, Kalmia wrote:
> I can't come up with specifics, but I know I have tried to avid heavy cream and the results were awful. So, once or twice a year, I bit the bullet and use the heavy cream and be done with it.
>
> I'm starting to feel the same way about fat free ricotta, sour cream etc. Some recipes need that fat.
>
> If you research this group, I think this subject has been 'beat' to death before. My mother had no truck with anything but heavy cream when she wanted whipped cream on something. As a kid, we fought over licking the beaters.
>


I am supposed to avoid fat now, though I never was a big fan of it. My
mother used to make a lot of things with whipped cream. My brothers
would fight over the beaters, but it never interested me.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:18:49 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:04:34 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
> >
> >I find that if I want the same consistency, then I need to make a
> >béchamel to use in place of heavy cream. Sometimes it matters,
> >sometimes it doesn't. Since this recipe calls for wine, they're using
> >heavy cream because it won't curdle like regular cream does when it
> >comes into contact with wine - but the main thing they're doing with
> >it is making a cheese sauce and skipping the steps of making béchamel
> >first. I suppose there could be an argument against béchamel based on
> >carb count or gluten intolerance, but I think they did it just for
> >pure ease and shaving some time off the recipe.
>
> Is there a way to make a bechamel without using flour?

I've never cared enough to find out - I was just talking about
béchamel vs heavy cream.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:51:57 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> US
> >
> > Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
> > make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
> > replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
> > milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
> > some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
> > we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
> >
>
>
> Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
> cream sauce.

I'd probably make a velouté using vegetable broth and take it from
there.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:17:06 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:51:57 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> >US
> >>
> >> Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
> >> make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
> >> replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
> >> milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
> >> some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
> >> we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
> >cream sauce.
>
> How do you make a white sauce without using flour? He said his wife
> eats gluten free.

He also said they substitute corn starch or tapioca flour for wheat
flour and he's an experienced enough cook that he knows how to make a
béchamel substitute with them.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 19/08/2012 5:17 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:51:57 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>> US
>>>
>>> Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
>>> make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
>>> replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
>>> milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
>>> some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
>>> we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
>> cream sauce.
>
> How do you make a white sauce without using flour? He said his wife
> eats gluten free.
> Janet US
>


How about potato flour? It is gluten free. It is the base of Veloutine,
which is my preferred thickener for strews and other meat sauces.

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:30:51 +1000, "Farm1" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>>
>> > http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ipe/index.html
>>
>> I dont' reallys see any need to use any cream in that recipe. I'd
>> replace
>> that 'cheese sauce' with a white sauce recipe to which I'd added some
>> cheese
>> and about a dessert spoon of brandy to save time, or, if I was really
>> going
>> to be fussy, I'd cook down the wine separately before making the bechamel
>> sauce.
>>
>> I also doubt you need so much cheese and certainly not so much cream to
>> get
>> reasonable facsimile of what the chef was seeking so tat your family
>> dont'
>> end up with gut problems from such a rich recipe.
>>
>> I believe there are white sauce recipes for those who are gluten
>> intolerant,
>> so it might be worth looking for such a recipe online.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>
> I find that if I want the same consistency, then I need to make a
> béchamel to use in place of heavy cream. Sometimes it matters,
> sometimes it doesn't. Since this recipe calls for wine, they're using
> heavy cream because it won't curdle like regular cream does when it
> comes into contact with wine - but the main thing they're doing with
> it is making a cheese sauce and skipping the steps of making béchamel
> first. I suppose there could be an argument against béchamel based on
> carb count or gluten intolerance, but I think they did it just for
> pure ease and shaving some time off the recipe.

Yep. But God knows why. It would take less time to make a bechamel or a
plain sauce thickened with cornflour (cornstarch) and drop a bit of booze
and some cheese into it than to do the reduction of the wine that is
specified in the recipe. Mind you, I suspect you and I could both cook a
bechamel in our sleep and make it as thick or thin and with an equivalent
flavour.

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:51:57 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>>On 19/08/2012 2:34 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>>US
>>>
>>> Thanks very much - that's what I was looking for. Neither of us here
>>> make sauces very often and the online reading seemed to talk about
>>> replacing the cream with part milk and part butter or using evaporated
>>> milk, neither of which is the way we think we want to go. We'll mix up
>>> some cornstarch and water and keep it on hand as we prepare the dish -
>>> we've decided to try it with half-and-half next time.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Personally, I would be looking at substituting a white sauce for the
>>cream sauce.
>
> How do you make a white sauce without using flour? He said his wife
> eats gluten free.
> Janet US

???? You've already given the ingredients for a gluten free white sauce in
your own response. I also said in my response, that there are gluten free
white sauce recipes online. Use cornflour and milk. If cornflour
(cornstarch) doesn't suit, rice flour would.

l, not -l wrote:

> > "3 cups leftover cooked rice".

> Who the heck ends up with 3 cups leftover cooked rice?

Chinese restaurants, I'm sure.