In article >,
(Victor Sack) wrote:

> isw > wrote:
>
> > (Victor Sack) wrote:
> >
> > > > (Victor Sack) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > What kind of pickles? If true sour, i.e. malolactically fermented
> > > > > pickles, then the juice - and the pickles themselves - can be used to
> > > > > cook the Russian rassol'nik, kal'ya or solyanka, or the Polish zupa
> > > > > ogórkowa. These are some of the nicest soups in existence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are some recipes I have posted over the years.
> > > > >
> > > > > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/8646512d70ac92a8>
> > > > >
> > > > > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/ce860cf1d89eafd4>
> > > > >
> > > > > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/2a8f5bbf7772ba1f>
> > > >
> > > > Google won't let me see them without their permission -- they want a
> > > > signup and a login. How about posting them somewhere public?
> > >
> > > The problem must be on your end - the posts on Google Groups are
> > > publicly available with no signups and logins.
> >
> > Then why do your URLs send me to a "Groups" page with a place to give
> > them my email and password? I suppose the problem is "on my end" because
> > I won't give those things to Google ...
>
> Google Groups access is really still publicly available - to anyone -
> with no signups and logins. The problem really must be on your end.
> Have you tried another browser?

Normally, I don't jump between browsers to satisfy the demands of
various poorly-constructed web pages, but out of curiosity, I tried
Firefox (my standard), Chrome, and Safari on the URLs you posted. IE is
not available for current Macs, but I wouldn't use it even if it were,
due to its very poor security performance.

FF and Chrome sent me to the login window; Safari went directly to the
recipes. I don't understand why that would be, but there it is. Two out
of three go for the login.

Isaac

Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> I spent eight hours today out in the hot sun doing yard work, soon as
> I climb into bed with my purring cats I'll be out in five minutes and
> will sleep like the dead... I do't remember ever taking a sleeping
> pill...

I agree with you, Sheldon. I was about to say that probably the best
sleeping pill is just lots of physical work or exercise. I've heard that
chemical sleep aids will help you sleep but it's not a sound restful sleep.
(?) Just hearsay. I've never needed or used a sleeping aid other than my fan
being on. I like the bit of white noise it creates. If the electricity ever
goes out, the fan noise stops and I wake right up.

G.

On 8/26/2012 5:52 AM, Gary wrote:
> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> I spent eight hours today out in the hot sun doing yard work, soon as
>> I climb into bed with my purring cats I'll be out in five minutes and
>> will sleep like the dead... I do't remember ever taking a sleeping
>> pill...
>
> I agree with you, Sheldon. I was about to say that probably the best
> sleeping pill is just lots of physical work or exercise. I've heard that
> chemical sleep aids will help you sleep but it's not a sound restful sleep.
> (?) Just hearsay. I've never needed or used a sleeping aid other than my fan
> being on. I like the bit of white noise it creates. If the electricity ever
> goes out, the fan noise stops and I wake right up.

All those doctors and researchers can stop, the cure for chronic
insomnia has been found, right here on rfc. A miracle.

(laugh)

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> On 8/26/2012 5:52 AM, Gary wrote:
> > Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>
> >> I spent eight hours today out in the hot sun doing yard work, soon as
> >> I climb into bed with my purring cats I'll be out in five minutes and
> >> will sleep like the dead... I do't remember ever taking a sleeping
> >> pill...
> >
> > I agree with you, Sheldon. I was about to say that probably the best
> > sleeping pill is just lots of physical work or exercise. I've heard that
> > chemical sleep aids will help you sleep but it's not a sound restful sleep.
> > (?) Just hearsay. I've never needed or used a sleeping aid other than my fan
> > being on. I like the bit of white noise it creates. If the electricity ever
> > goes out, the fan noise stops and I wake right up.
>
> All those doctors and researchers can stop, the cure for chronic
> insomnia has been found, right here on rfc. A miracle.
>
> (laugh)

Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
sometime and get back to us.

G.

On 8/26/2012 7:48 AM, Gary wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote:

>> All those doctors and researchers can stop, the cure for chronic
>> insomnia has been found, right here on rfc. A miracle.
>>
>> (laugh)
>
> Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
> physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
> all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
> sometime and get back to us.

My fat ass? Even though I don't have one, that's the easy
insult I've come to expect from you. I mean, when you said
fat ass, you didn't mean it as a compliment, right?

Even on days when I've gone on long New Hampshire type hikes or moved
yards of mulch, I can still struggle to sleep. Yes, I only walked
3 miles yesterday, but last night was a very long night.

Why don't you go for a run, maybe you can sleep later than
4 in the morning yourself. I mean, it's just that easy. Right?

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> On 8/26/2012 7:48 AM, Gary wrote:
> > Nancy Young wrote:
>
> >> All those doctors and researchers can stop, the cure for chronic
> >> insomnia has been found, right here on rfc. A miracle.
> >>
> >> (laugh)
> >
> > Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
> > physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
> > all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
> > sometime and get back to us.
>
> My fat ass? Even though I don't have one, that's the easy
> insult I've come to expect from you. I mean, when you said
> fat ass, you didn't mean it as a compliment, right?
>
> Even on days when I've gone on long New Hampshire type hikes or moved
> yards of mulch, I can still struggle to sleep. Yes, I only walked
> 3 miles yesterday, but last night was a very long night.
>
> Why don't you go for a run, maybe you can sleep later than
> 4 in the morning yourself. I mean, it's just that easy. Right?

For me, Yes...it's just that easy. You said you have come to expect my
insults. Just remember, I say them in jest. I never insult someone
purposely. If you have a nice ass, please post a picture link. mehhehh

As you mentioned...yes...I'm always up no later than 4:30am and without
alarm too. This is not anything other than my body clock used to what it's
done forever. I feel ripped off if I don't get up before dawn. I love the
early predawn hour.

Again...I was teasing you. Luckily, I've never had a serious sleeping
problem. If I wake up too early, reading a book will knock me back out.
I've discovered that I have the best energy from having 5.5 to 6 hours sleep
per night. More than that and I feel tired all day.

And I'm no expert on sleeping problems. I agreed with Sheldon that lots of
exercise should do the trick as a natural way to sleep vs meds. But I argue
and tease, then I hear other experiences or opinions and I take it all in
and sometimes learn something new.

Don't forget the nice ass picture!

G.

On 8/26/2012 10:42 AM, Gary wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>> On 8/26/2012 7:48 AM, Gary wrote:

>>> Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
>>> physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
>>> all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
>>> sometime and get back to us.
>>
>> My fat ass? Even though I don't have one, that's the easy
>> insult I've come to expect from you. I mean, when you said
>> fat ass, you didn't mean it as a compliment, right?
>>
>> Even on days when I've gone on long New Hampshire type hikes or moved
>> yards of mulch, I can still struggle to sleep. Yes, I only walked
>> 3 miles yesterday, but last night was a very long night.
>>
>> Why don't you go for a run, maybe you can sleep later than
>> 4 in the morning yourself. I mean, it's just that easy. Right?
>
> For me, Yes...it's just that easy. You said you have come to expect my
> insults. Just remember, I say them in jest. I never insult someone
> purposely.

I know you say that, and I try to consider if someone is kidding,
but you didn't seem like you were responding to my tease with a
joke. I'll have to take your word for it.

Believe me, if working in the yard all day was the cure, I'd
sleep straight through the night most of every May.

> If you have a nice ass, please post a picture link. mehhehh

I haven't looked lately, but I assume gravity isn't doing my butt
any big favors. Not that my rear was ever my big attraction.

> Again...I was teasing you. Luckily, I've never had a serious sleeping
> problem. If I wake up too early, reading a book will knock me back out.
> I've discovered that I have the best energy from having 5.5 to 6 hours sleep
> per night. More than that and I feel tired all day.

I'm happy if I get that much, and I often do. I do go through sleepless
jags that eventually leave me with nothing in my tank. It would be nice
if all it took was some long walk and presto chango I'm sleeping
till noon.

> And I'm no expert on sleeping problems. I agreed with Sheldon that lots of
> exercise should do the trick as a natural way to sleep vs meds. But I argue
> and tease, then I hear other experiences or opinions and I take it all in
> and sometimes learn something new.
>
> Don't forget the nice ass picture!

I'm no Kardashian, that's for sure.

nancy

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 08:27:58 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>On 8/26/2012 7:48 AM, Gary wrote:
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>
>>> All those doctors and researchers can stop, the cure for chronic
>>> insomnia has been found, right here on rfc. A miracle.
>>>
>>> (laugh)
>>
>> Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
>> physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
>> all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
>> sometime and get back to us.
>
>My fat ass? Even though I don't have one, that's the easy
>insult I've come to expect from you. I mean, when you said
>fat ass, you didn't mean it as a compliment, right?
>
>Even on days when I've gone on long New Hampshire type hikes or moved
>yards of mulch, I can still struggle to sleep. Yes, I only walked
>3 miles yesterday, but last night was a very long night.
>
>Why don't you go for a run, maybe you can sleep later than
>4 in the morning yourself. I mean, it's just that easy. Right?
>
>nancy

Don't mind Gary, he doesn't have any couth. I bet Nancy has a very
nice ass... I bet I can make her sleep like a log.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:23:47 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>On 8/26/2012 10:42 AM, Gary wrote:
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8/26/2012 7:48 AM, Gary wrote:
>
>>>> Nancy....get your lazy fat ass out working in the yard all day, being very
>>>> physically active. Or go for a 15 mile hike, or a 12 mile run, or surfing
>>>> all day, etc, etc. See if you don't sleep very well that night. Try it
>>>> sometime and get back to us.
>>>
>>> My fat ass? Even though I don't have one, that's the easy
>>> insult I've come to expect from you. I mean, when you said
>>> fat ass, you didn't mean it as a compliment, right?
>>>
>>> Even on days when I've gone on long New Hampshire type hikes or moved
>>> yards of mulch, I can still struggle to sleep. Yes, I only walked
>>> 3 miles yesterday, but last night was a very long night.
>>>
>>> Why don't you go for a run, maybe you can sleep later than
>>> 4 in the morning yourself. I mean, it's just that easy. Right?
>>
>> For me, Yes...it's just that easy. You said you have come to expect my
>> insults. Just remember, I say them in jest. I never insult someone
>> purposely.
>
>I know you say that, and I try to consider if someone is kidding,
>but you didn't seem like you were responding to my tease with a
>joke. I'll have to take your word for it.
>
>Believe me, if working in the yard all day was the cure, I'd
>sleep straight through the night most of every May.
>
> > If you have a nice ass, please post a picture link. mehhehh
>
>I haven't looked lately, but I assume gravity isn't doing my butt
>any big favors. Not that my rear was ever my big attraction.
>
>> Again...I was teasing you. Luckily, I've never had a serious sleeping
>> problem. If I wake up too early, reading a book will knock me back out.
>> I've discovered that I have the best energy from having 5.5 to 6 hours sleep
>> per night. More than that and I feel tired all day.
>
>I'm happy if I get that much, and I often do.

Me too... 6 hours is all the sleep I've always had... I guess maybe I
have a sleeping problem too. The few times I've fallen back to sleep
for another hour or two I felt lethargic all day. And I don't nap,
the few times I've fallen asleep at my PC it was like having to wake
up another morning.


>I do go through sleepless
>jags that eventually leave me with nothing in my tank. It would be nice
>if all it took was some long walk and presto chango I'm sleeping
>till noon.
>
>> And I'm no expert on sleeping problems. I agreed with Sheldon that lots of
>> exercise should do the trick as a natural way to sleep vs meds. But I argue
>> and tease, then I hear other experiences or opinions and I take it all in
>> and sometimes learn something new.
>>
>> Don't forget the nice ass picture!
>
>I'm no Kardashian, that's for sure.
>
>nancy
>

On 2012-08-26 01:23:13 +0000, Cheryl said:

> On 8/25/2012 11:21 AM, Ema Nymton wrote:
>
>> I have ambien, but I am hesitant to take it, because I am a sleep
>> walker. A couple of nights ago, I sat up in bed, and said, "I need to
>> refrigerate the peppers." I did not remember it, but George told me
>> about it the next day. It is best to ignore sleep walkers, even if they
>> talk to you. It looks like I am awake, but I am totally asleep.
>
> I had scripts for Ambien in the past and I won't take them again. TMI
> to post here.

My wife has been having significant losses of energy; and this from a
woman who has always been very energetic. Over the years she has found
work stressful enough that it keeps her awake at night and so has taken
1/3 of a 5mg valium 5 nights or so a week. Her doctor said he thought
her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of the valium.

So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
my comfort.

On 8/27/2012 11:48 AM, gtr wrote:

> My wife has been having significant losses of energy; and this from a
> woman who has always been very energetic. Over the years she has found
> work stressful enough that it keeps her awake at night and so has taken
> 1/3 of a 5mg valium 5 nights or so a week. Her doctor said he thought
> her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of the valium.
>
> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
> my comfort.


Please let us know if the ambien works for her. It might be better than
the valium.

Becca

isw > wrote:

> Normally, I don't jump between browsers to satisfy the demands of
> various poorly-constructed web pages, but out of curiosity, I tried
> Firefox (my standard), Chrome, and Safari on the URLs you posted. IE is
> not available for current Macs, but I wouldn't use it even if it were,
> due to its very poor security performance.
>
> FF and Chrome sent me to the login window; Safari went directly to the
> recipes. I don't understand why that would be, but there it is. Two out
> of three go for the login.

I use both Mac (as a choice) and Windows (at work) and use FF as a
preference, but also IE, as needed - there is never any problem
accessing Google Groups with no login - and particularly not in this
case (and, no, I am not already logged in). Have you perhaps set up
some of your browsers to use "New Google Groups" (or whatever it is they
are called)?

Victor

Cheryl > wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 11:21 AM, Ema Nymton wrote:
>
>> I have ambien, but I am hesitant to take it, because I am a sleep
>> walker. A couple of nights ago, I sat up in bed, and said, "I need to
>> refrigerate the peppers." I did not remember it, but George told me
>> about it the next day. It is best to ignore sleep walkers, even if they
>> talk to you. It looks like I am awake, but I am totally asleep.
>
> I had scripts for Ambien in the past and I won't take them again. TMI to post here. lol

Lunesta worked far better than ambien for me, but I can't get it with my
insurance.
It does leave a taste in your mouth in the morning.

Greg

gtr wrote:
> On 2012-08-26 01:23:13 +0000, Cheryl said:
>
>> On 8/25/2012 11:21 AM, Ema Nymton wrote:
>>
>>> I have ambien, but I am hesitant to take it, because I am a sleep
>>> walker. A couple of nights ago, I sat up in bed, and said, "I need to
>>> refrigerate the peppers." I did not remember it, but George told me
>>> about it the next day. It is best to ignore sleep walkers, even if they
>>> talk to you. It looks like I am awake, but I am totally asleep.
>>
>> I had scripts for Ambien in the past and I won't take them again. TMI
>> to post here.
>
> My wife has been having significant losses of energy; and this from a
> woman who has always been very energetic. Over the years she has found
> work stressful enough that it keeps her awake at night and so has taken
> 1/3 of a 5mg valium 5 nights or so a week. Her doctor said he thought
> her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of the valium.
>
> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
> my comfort.
>

yeah, you'd better watch her like a hawk. I took a sleeping pill
?2? times, one of those times being at the sleep center. I
decided they were much too dangerous. For one thing, when driving
the next day I realized I was zoning out A LOT and could barely
drag my attention back to the road. I hope the sleep doctor
absorbed what I said about this.

--
Jean B.

--

gtr wrote:

> On 2012-08-26 01:23:13 +0000, Cheryl said:
>
>> On 8/25/2012 11:21 AM, Ema Nymton wrote:
>>
>>> I have ambien, but I am hesitant to take it, because I am a sleep
>>> walker. A couple of nights ago, I sat up in bed, and said, "I need to
>>> refrigerate the peppers." I did not remember it, but George told me
>>> about it the next day. It is best to ignore sleep walkers, even if they
>>> talk to you. It looks like I am awake, but I am totally asleep.
>>
>> I had scripts for Ambien in the past and I won't take them again. TMI
>> to post here.
>
> My wife has been having significant losses of energy; and this from a
> woman who has always been very energetic. Over the years she has found
> work stressful enough that it keeps her awake at night and so has taken
> 1/3 of a 5mg valium 5 nights or so a week. Her doctor said he thought
> her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of the valium.
>
> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
> my comfort.

Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.



Steve

On 2012-08-29 02:40:40 +0000, Jean B. said:

>> My wife has been having significant losses of energy; and this from a
>> woman who has always been very energetic. Over the years she has found
>> work stressful enough that it keeps her awake at night and so has taken
>> 1/3 of a 5mg valium 5 nights or so a week. Her doctor said he thought
>> her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of the valium.
>>
>> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>> my comfort.
>>
>
> yeah, you'd better watch her like a hawk. I took a sleeping pill ?2?
> times, one of those times being at the sleep center. I decided they
> were much too dangerous. For one thing, when driving the next day I
> realized I was zoning out A LOT and could barely drag my attention back
> to the road. I hope the sleep doctor absorbed what I said about this.

Thanks for your input. All sleeping pills are not alike. In fact,
seemingly, all of them are significantly different. She takes half (or
less) of the recommended dosage of Ambien, and drives about 10 minutes
to work, on residential streets. Pretty sweet deal.

I watch her like a benevolent hawk anyway...

On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:

>> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>> my comfort.
>
> Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.

I wonder what they are flags of...

gtr wrote:
>
> Thanks for your input. All sleeping pills are not alike. In fact,
> seemingly, all of them are significantly different. She takes half (or
> less) of the recommended dosage of Ambien, and drives about 10 minutes
> to work, on residential streets. Pretty sweet deal.
>
> I watch her like a benevolent hawk anyway...

Here's just my opinion from all you have said. Take it for the price you are
paying me but please do consider this.

You said she used to be active but then she couldn't sleep because of stress
from work. Well natually, if you can't sleep you won't feel very active
anymore.

Long ago, I learned to postpone work stress until the next morning. I would
go to bed stressing, then told myself, "forget it for now, enjoy your
evening. Once you wake up in the morning, go back to dealing with the
stressful issues." It worked for me but probably not so easy for most
people to do.

Sleep drugs will help you to sleep but I've always heard that it's not a
good, refreshing, natural sleep. Valium is not a normal sleep and neither
is your Ambien.

Doctors these days are way to quick to dispense drugs vs natural cures. Her
doctor should have suggested vigorous exercise to reduce stress as the first
line of defense. Vigorous exercise kills 2 birds with one stone.....the
exercise each day will wear you out physically and help you sleep. It also
helps to reduce mental stress. It really does.

You have a right to be concerned. More drugs are not the best answer. If
this was my wife, I'd drag her tired butt out of the house every day for
some running or long bike riding.

This stress has already kept her from sleeping. Drugs are not the best
answer. The stress will kill her early by itself...adding drugs to coverup
the symptoms will kill her even sooner.

Try a sports doctor that might go for the natural stress reduction vs
someone who keeps throwing new drugs at her.

IMO, she needs to take life easier and not stress so much about a stupid
job. Get a different one if it's that bad.

Gary

gtr wrote:
>
> On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:
>
> >> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
> >> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
> >> my comfort.
> >
> > Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.
>
> I wonder what they are flags of...

They are flags of impending disaster.
Your concern is correct.
Try a different doctor for a 2nd opinion about treating this.

G.

On 2012-08-29 21:26:12 +0000, Gary said:

> gtr wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for your input. All sleeping pills are not alike. In fact,
>> seemingly, all of them are significantly different. She takes half (or
>> less) of the recommended dosage of Ambien, and drives about 10 minutes
>> to work, on residential streets. Pretty sweet deal.
>>
>> I watch her like a benevolent hawk anyway...
>
> Here's just my opinion from all you have said. Take it for the price you are
> paying me but please do consider this

"Stress" isn't a work we learned last week or a concept that only now
has become a matter of consideration. Stress, like most everything else
in life, morphs along the way. Whatever stress one is dealing with now,
will not be the stress they deal with later, and not all solutions for
all people work at all times.

Thank you for your concern. Most of it seems to project that we've
overlooked this most obvious aspects. But we haven't. I'm sure there
are people who do whatever a doctor tells them, and people who don't
consider anything fully making half-assed decisions about almost
everything. There are those that don't listen to their body and those
that don't hear their body when it speaks. That wouldn't be us.

On 2012-08-29 21:30:36 +0000, Gary said:

> gtr wrote:
>>
>> On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:
>>
>>>> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>>>> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>>>> my comfort.
>>>
>>> Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.
>>
>> I wonder what they are flags of...
>
> They are flags of impending disaster.
> Your concern is correct.
> Try a different doctor for a 2nd opinion about treating this.

You're confused. We made the decision, not a doctor. I don't know if
you're against all drugs or just these and those. You also really know
nothing about the patient so your assessment leaves a little something
to be disired.

Your "impending disaster" is scatter-gun hyperbole.

By the way I had a dream last night that your children died in a
hideous car-wreck. Have a nice day.

Gary > wrote:

>gtr wrote:

>> On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:
>>
>> >> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>> >> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>> >> my comfort.
>> >
>> > Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.
>>
>> I wonder what they are flags of...
>
>They are flags of impending disaster.
>Your concern is correct.
>Try a different doctor for a 2nd opinion about treating this.

On an overall basis ambien will have fewer side effects than
using benzodiazepines to treat insomnia. Including in particular
next-day drowsiness / loss of alertness.

The "red flag" is because a person's relationship to their sleep
meds (or other psych meds) is something they have to work out
for themselves with their healthcare provider. It really is best
if their friends and family have zero attitude on the issue.

Obviously some behaviors can't be tolerated (crashing the car,
ordering the same thing 6 times from Amazon because you forgot...),
but the minor routine effects are best ignored. People need
space to address these issues. It is best not to "watch like a hawk"
(although gtr did clarify that to "benevolent hawk").

Just my opinion.


Steve

On 8/29/2012 5:30 PM, Gary wrote:
> gtr wrote:
>>
>> On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:
>>
>>>> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>>>> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>>>> my comfort.
>>>
>>> Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.
>>
>> I wonder what they are flags of...
>
> They are flags of impending disaster.
> Your concern is correct.
> Try a different doctor for a 2nd opinion about treating this.

At first Ambien seems harmless as long as you're already in bed when you
take them. Then it seems like it builds up in your body and you do
things in your sleep that you wouldn't normally do. Then it's like
you're still asleep when you've been awake for hours and are driving to
work. In other words, you start forgetting big parts of your day.

On 8/26/2012 12:23 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

> I'm happy if I get that much, and I often do. I do go through sleepless
> jags that eventually leave me with nothing in my tank. It would be nice
> if all it took was some long walk and presto chango I'm sleeping
> till noon.

I went through an insomnia phase one time that left me feeling like life
was surreal. I've had many bouts with insomnia but that one was the
worst. When I was able to sleep I had such horrible nightmares that the
surreal life was better than sleeping and the nightmares. I think my
longest time back then was about 7 days straight with no sleep and I
still had to work. I was not the most safest driver on the road then,
but it was before any "help" with sleep aids that would have made it worse.

On 2012-08-30 04:12:47 +0000, Cheryl said:

> On 8/29/2012 5:30 PM, Gary wrote:
>> gtr wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2012-08-29 03:19:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:
>>>
>>>>> So he's given her a script for the ambien (a generic actually). We'll
>>>>> see. I'm watching her like a hawk. She has to take too many drugs for
>>>>> my comfort.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, your last two sentences are big red flags.
>>>
>>> I wonder what they are flags of...
>>
>> They are flags of impending disaster.
>> Your concern is correct.
>> Try a different doctor for a 2nd opinion about treating this.
>
> At first Ambien seems harmless as long as you're already in bed when
> you take them. Then it seems like it builds up in your body and you do
> things in your sleep that you wouldn't normally do. Then it's like
> you're still asleep when you've been awake for hours and are driving to
> work. In other words, you start forgetting big parts of your day.

These are not effects seen by all users.

On 2012-08-30 02:15:57 +0000, Steve Pope said:

> On an overall basis ambien will have fewer side effects than
> using benzodiazepines to treat insomnia. Including in particular
> next-day drowsiness / loss of alertness.

That was the intent in changing medication. I'm sorry I broached the
topic at all. I forget that actually be personal about one's actual
life in such forums is a hazard.

> The "red flag" is because a person's relationship to their sleep
> meds (or other psych meds) is something they have to work out
> for themselves with their healthcare provider. It really is best
> if their friends and family have zero attitude on the issue.
>
> Obviously some behaviors can't be tolerated (crashing the car,
> ordering the same thing 6 times from Amazon because you forgot...),
> but the minor routine effects are best ignored. People need
> space to address these issues. It is best not to "watch like a hawk"
> (although gtr did clarify that to "benevolent hawk").

It is actually best to do what one thinks is best, rather than figuring
it based on how other people may or may not parse their turn of phrase.

What I'm "watching like a hawk" is the potential for interaction among
several drugs, one (immitrex) for migraines, one for rumitoid
arthritis, one for high blood pressure, and the periodic use of drugs
to sleep. Note that I don't give a shit what a doctor or pharmacist (or
even usenet!) says about what *shouldn't* cause problems. I care much
more about the practical realities of reality.

In life both my wife and I have already had 6 or 7 mostly minor
maladies that were misdiagnosed and were straightened out by being
conscious and analytic of our own lives. Certainly all doctors are
fallible, but more importantly many doctors aren't always particularly
specific with patients, especially now that so many of us rotate freely
every year through different healthcare corporations.

Note also, my wife does not have insomnia. She is periodically awakened
in the night and has trouble falling back to sleep. In itself this is
no traumatic circumstance, but it can sure be an inconvenience. Both of
us tend to take a 2-3mg of valium (about a half of the smallest
configuration) after 15-20 minutes in the hopes of avoiding a full
hour's wait for sleep to return. This isn't something that happens
everyday, but more like once or twice a month. Perhaps that will help
people formulate a more diverse set of misunderstandings.

In article <2012083008530599591-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr > wrote:

>On 2012-08-30 04:12:47 +0000, Cheryl said:

>> At first Ambien seems harmless as long as you're already in bed when
>> you take them. Then it seems like it builds up in your body and you do
>> things in your sleep that you wouldn't normally do. Then it's like
>> you're still asleep when you've been awake for hours and are driving to
>> work. In other words, you start forgetting big parts of your day.

>These are not effects seen by all users.

It's different for everyone. In my experience, the amnesia
interval starts when the drug takes effect and lasts about four
hours. That is, if I happen to be awake during part of that
four hours, I will still have no memory of it. However I've had a few
instances of not remembering events that were 8 to 9 hours after taking
the drug (i.e. after sleeping then waking up). (By "a few" I mean
maybe once per year this happens.)

Considering that it is a potent hypnotic that can relieve serious
insomnia, the side effects seem pretty mild. But if one does not really
have insomnia, then maybe it is overkill.


Steve

On 2012-08-30 17:22:00 +0000, Steve Pope said:

> In article <2012083008530599591-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr > wrote:
>
>> On 2012-08-30 04:12:47 +0000, Cheryl said:
>
>>> At first Ambien seems harmless as long as you're already in bed when
>>> you take them. Then it seems like it builds up in your body and you do
>>> things in your sleep that you wouldn't normally do. Then it's like
>>> you're still asleep when you've been awake for hours and are driving to
>>> work. In other words, you start forgetting big parts of your day.
>
>> These are not effects seen by all users.
>
> It's different for everyone. In my experience, the amnesia
> interval starts when the drug takes effect and lasts about four
> hours. That is, if I happen to be awake during part of that
> four hours, I will still have no memory of it. However I've had a few
> instances of not remembering events that were 8 to 9 hours after taking
> the drug (i.e. after sleeping then waking up). (By "a few" I mean
> maybe once per year this happens.)
>
> Considering that it is a potent hypnotic that can relieve serious
> insomnia, the side effects seem pretty mild. But if one does not really
> have insomnia, then maybe it is overkill.

Thanks for the input. Duly clipped and noted.

gtr wrote:
>
> I'm sorry I broached the topic at all. I forget that actually being
> personal about one's actual life in such forums is a hazard.

It's not really a hazard but you'll hear all kinds of conflicting comments.
If you mention personal issues here, be ready to read any and all things.
You will get plenty of support but don't get mad with well-wishers who
misread you. I was very stunned that you got mad at my attempt to help.

> What I'm "watching like a hawk" is the potential for interaction among
> several drugs,

and you said, "She has to take too many drugs for my comfort."

Now see, I took that wrong. Sounded to me like she might be turning into a
"prescription junkie." I've dealt with that with a close family member
before and it scared the hell out of me.

I apologize that I obviously offended you with my opinions/suggestions. I
wasn't teasing you on such a serious subject. I just offered you what I knew
based on my life experiences. I was honestly just trying to add in something
that might help. My basics on exercise didn't mean I thought you were
stupid but I don't know you and don't know what you've tried, and many
doctors will throw you drugs and not offer other remedies.


> Note also, my wife does not have insomnia. She is periodically awakened
> in the night and has trouble falling back to sleep. In itself this is
> no traumatic circumstance, but it can sure be an inconvenience. Both of
> us tend to take a 2-3mg of valium (about a half of the smallest
> configuration) after 15-20 minutes in the hopes of avoiding a full
> hour's wait for sleep to return. This isn't something that happens
> everyday, but more like once or twice a month. Perhaps that will help
> people formulate a more diverse set of misunderstandings.

So you both take valium to go back to sleep but you previously said, "Her
doctor said he thought her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of
the valium."

Perhaps it's time to listen to your doctor. Valium can be addicting or at
least a bad habit. The sleep it gives you is not a normal, restful sleep. If
it's only once or twice a month, it shouldn't be any big deal in your life.
You made it sound much worse.

Now you're going to *really* hate me but don't worry, I won't comment on
this subject again. I wish you both a good solution, truly. :-D I was
just trying to help.

G.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
.com...
> On 8/23/2012 7:06 PM, Gary wrote:
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, no. I'm up almost every night. For much of the night. I
>>> don't feel like in a slow motion dream world. Normally, I feel
>>> like Should I turn on the tv to make me drowsy or read a book or
>>> something.
>>
>> I get up early every day....4:30 or even earlier on weekends. Because of
>> this, I often fall asleep in the evenings. Then I often wake up around
>> midnight or so. From there, I do either watch tv or read a book. It's
>> all
>> short catnaps from then on.
>
> It's a vicious cycle. I wish I could go to bed at midnight and
> wake up at 7, that would be heaven. Naps mess up any hope of that.
>
> nancy
>

You may in fact be doing things right
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep and the rest of us have it
wrong.

Mike

On 2012-08-30 20:59:13 +0000, Gary said:

> gtr wrote:
>>
>> I'm sorry I broached the topic at all. I forget that actually being
>> personal about one's actual life in such forums is a hazard.
>
> It's not really a hazard but you'll hear all kinds of conflicting comments.
> If you mention personal issues here, be ready to read any and all things.
> You will get plenty of support but don't get mad with well-wishers who
> misread you. I was very stunned that you got mad at my attempt to help.

Sorry, Gary; I over-reacted. Best to keep the wife away from people
making dire predictions as if I was a moron who couldn't walk a
sidewalk straight.

> and you said, "She has to take too many drugs for my comfort."
>
> Now see, I took that wrong. Sounded to me like she might be turning into a
> "prescription junkie." I've dealt with that with a close family member
> before and it scared the hell out of me.

I think I took your errant message "right". I think instead you should
have clarified other aspects before issuing dire summations. Just one
man's opinion regarding cleanliness of communications.

> I apologize that I obviously offended you with my opinions/suggestions. I
> wasn't teasing you on such a serious subject. I just offered you what I knew
> based on my life experiences. I was honestly just trying to add in something
> that might help. My basics on exercise didn't mean I thought you were
> stupid but I don't know you and don't know what you've tried, and many
> doctors will throw you drugs and not offer other remedies.

I'm sure you meant well, your apologies are readily accepted; no
emotional residue is retained.

>> Note also, my wife does not have insomnia. She is periodically awakened
>> in the night and has trouble falling back to sleep. In itself this is
>> no traumatic circumstance, but it can sure be an inconvenience. Both of
>> us tend to take a 2-3mg of valium (about a half of the smallest
>> configuration) after 15-20 minutes in the hopes of avoiding a full
>> hour's wait for sleep to return. This isn't something that happens
>> everyday, but more like once or twice a month. Perhaps that will help
>> people formulate a more diverse set of misunderstandings.
>
> So you both take valium to go back to sleep but you previously said, "Her
> doctor said he thought her energy loss may be due to the residual effects of
> the valium."

That's correct.

> Perhaps it's time to listen to your doctor. Valium can be addicting or at
> least a bad habit.

We've both discussed this `15 year-old habit with probably a total of 5
doctors over the years. "Addiction" to valium will never be constituted
when taken in these kind of doses. One doctor asked my weight, 182, and
my dosage, 2.5mg. He said, "I think you'll effect the maximum placebo
effect that way." I found that humorous.

Taking a total of 10 milligrams a month on (for example) a total of
four occasions will not produce addition. I've got at least 5 opinions
on that. I've got the fact that neither of us use them at all for 3 to
4 months at a time as evidence supporting this. And now I'm putting our
charts back in the file cabinet.

> The sleep it gives you is not a normal, restful sleep. If
> it's only once or twice a month, it shouldn't be any big deal in your life.
> You made it sound much worse.

I didn't make it sound any kind of way. I just re-read my description
(above) and it's accurate.

> Now you're going to *really* hate me but don't worry, I won't comment on
> this subject again. I wish you both a good solution, truly. :-D I was
> just trying to help.

I know you were trying to help, and have a general frame of reference
for your persona here. Sorry for my over-reaction. Tomorrow, I'd likely
respond to another genial, well-intended kibitzer in a similar way, but
without turning the knife after plunging it in. That was pretty
barbaric, I must admit. But cute, I thought.