"Andy" > wrote in message ...
> OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
>
> Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the Empire
> State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue shot
> randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
>
> The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
> police.
>
> Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
>
> Crazy!
>
> Andy
>

Guns don't kill people!

But people with guns sure as hell do!

graham wrote:
> "Andy" > wrote in message ...
>> OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
>>
>> Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the Empire
>> State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue shot
>> randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
>>
>> The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
>> police.
>>
>> Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
>>
>> Crazy!
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
> Guns don't kill people!
>
> But people with guns sure as hell do!
>
>


Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*

It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and one
targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing the
bad guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.

Bob

"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
> graham wrote:
>> "Andy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
>>>
>>> Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the
>>> Empire
>>> State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue shot
>>> randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
>>>
>>> The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
>>> police.
>>>
>>> Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
>>>
>>> Crazy!
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> Guns don't kill people!
>>
>> But people with guns sure as hell do!
>
>
> Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
>
> It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and one
> targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
> away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing the bad
> guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.
>
> Bob

It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.


W. Pooh (AKA Winnie P.)

On 8/24/2012 10:16 PM, Christopher M. wrote:
> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message

>> Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
>>
>> It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and one
>> targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
>> away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing the bad
>> guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.

> It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.

Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
cops being hurt.

nancy

graham wrote:
>
> "Andy" > wrote in message ...
> > OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
> >
> > Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the Empire
> > State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue shot
> > randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
> >
> > The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
> > police.
> >
> > Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
> >
> > Crazy!
> >
> > Andy
> >
>
> Guns don't kill people!
>
> But people with guns sure as hell do!

Police with guns sure do. As a non-criminal civilian your odds are much
higher for being shot by careless police than by a civilian.

"Christopher M." wrote:
>
> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > graham wrote:
> >> "Andy" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
> >>>
> >>> Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the
> >>> Empire
> >>> State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue shot
> >>> randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
> >>>
> >>> The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
> >>> police.
> >>>
> >>> Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
> >>>
> >>> Crazy!
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>
> >> Guns don't kill people!
> >>
> >> But people with guns sure as hell do!
> >
> >
> > Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
> >
> > It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and one
> > targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
> > away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing the bad
> > guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.
> >
> > Bob
>
> It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.

They were wounded by other officers.

On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 10:16 PM, Christopher M. wrote:
>> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
>
>>> Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
>>>
>>> It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and one
>>> targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
>>> away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing
>>> the bad
>>> guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.
>
>> It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.
>
> Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
> bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
> cops being hurt.
>
> nancy
>

The initial lets invent something reports painted the gunfight picture.

The later reports all seem to say it was a murder and suicide by police
after the murderer drew on the two cops who were tipped off by the
construction workers. Bystander injuries all seem to be related to
police overreacting. One officer fired nine times and the other seven times.

"The two cops approached Johnson, who drew his gun, turned and pointed
it directly at the officers from about eight feet away, police said.
Police opened fire and shot him, Police Department spokesman Paul Browne
told reporters.

One officer fired nine times and the other seven times, Browne said.
Investigators believe Johnson was shot seven times; his body had 10
bullets wounds, three of which were believed to be exit wounds, Browne
said."


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87N0M220120825

On 8/25/2012 9:03 AM, George wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

>> Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
>> bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
>> cops being hurt.

> The initial lets invent something reports painted the gunfight picture.

Right, but that was cleared by the time the troll posted last night.

> The later reports all seem to say it was a murder and suicide by police
> after the murderer drew on the two cops who were tipped off by the
> construction workers. Bystander injuries all seem to be related to
> police overreacting. One officer fired nine times and the other seven
> times.

Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
assassinated someone.

nancy

On 8/25/2012 9:22 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 9:03 AM, George wrote:
>> On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
>
>>> Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
>>> bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
>>> cops being hurt.
>
>> The initial lets invent something reports painted the gunfight picture.
>
> Right, but that was cleared by the time the troll posted last night.
>
>> The later reports all seem to say it was a murder and suicide by police
>> after the murderer drew on the two cops who were tipped off by the
>> construction workers. Bystander injuries all seem to be related to
>> police overreacting. One officer fired nine times and the other seven
>> times.
>
> Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
> assassinated someone.
>
> nancy

Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
the line of fire.



CCTV of police shooting Empire State Building gunman

http://youtu.be/6W8cHwNuqH4

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> Things like that can happen when a murderer puts a gun practically
> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
> assassinated someone.

Cops so often get a bad rap. Remember, we (the taxpayers) hire them to
shield us from all the bad, evil people in any society...and there's a lot
of them. Most come out at night when most of the "decent" people are at
home sleeping.

The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.

I've had a few encounters with cops in my lifetime, mostly minor traffic
violations but once I got pulled over because me and my van fit a
discription of someone who had just robbed a restaurant. (That was an
interesting episode!@)

Anyway, any time I've gotten stopped I've always been very polite (not
****ed off and argue). I've avoided some tickets they could have given me
because of that.

Remember, these guys deal with the scum of society. When they show up to
deal with you, they are probably assuming you might be one too.

If you think policemen are bullies and arrogant, wait until you need to call
one to help you and see how happy you are when they show up quickly.

Gary

PS - in my city, the police get pretty damn good pay and benefits. Once you
consider the dangerous job they take on each shift though, I think they are
probably underpaid.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:07:26 -0400, George >
wrote:



>>
>> Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>> assassinated someone.
>>
>> nancy
>
>Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
>fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
>the line of fire.
>
>
>
>CCTV of police shooting Empire State Building gunman
>
>http://youtu.be/6W8cHwNuqH4

You would think that, they are trained, practiced, etc. But we are
talking real life here. Much as we'd like to say exactly how it
should have happened, if someone was pointing a guy at you, you'd
react, not stop and think about the situation.

This guy already killed and you will be next. I'd like to see your
reaction.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> >
> >Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
> >fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
> >the line of fire.
> >

> You would think that, they are trained, practiced, etc.

This is really a myth. The reality is that unless they are on a SWAT
team or similar they don't have much firearms training or practice. The
average police officer gets a bit of classroom training and a quick
range qualification session once or twice a year. They are not marksmen
or even at an average level of training for general competition.

In many states with concealed carry, those civilians get training and
qualification very similar to the average police officer. A fair
percentage of those civilians go on to get further training while the
average police officer gets a badge and goes out on the street.


> But we are
> talking real life here. Much as we'd like to say exactly how it
> should have happened, if someone was pointing a guy at you, you'd
> react, not stop and think about the situation.

That's the thing, the police initiated the confrontation on a crowded
street. Until the police initiated the confrontation there was no gun
drawn, no random shooting civilians, etc. The police failed before the
shooting even started. The proper response would have been to follow the
suspect at a distance until he was in a safer location such as an alley
before initiating a confrontation.

>
> This guy already killed and you will be next. I'd like to see your
> reaction.

This guy was walking down the street with his gun put away before the
confrontation was initiated by the police.

Gary wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:
> >
> > Things like that can happen when a murderer puts a gun practically
> > in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
> > assassinated someone.
>
> Cops so often get a bad rap. Remember, we (the taxpayers) hire them to
> shield us from all the bad, evil people in any society...and there's a lot
> of them. Most come out at night when most of the "decent" people are at
> home sleeping.
>
> The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
> and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
> everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
> my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.

Anyone firing a gun, be they police or civilian, are responsible for
where the bullets land. If it was a civilian doing the shooting of a
legitimate bad guy and they unloaded the mag and struck 9 or 10 innocent
bystanders they would be in jail. Police need to be held to the same or
higher standards, not lower.

On 8/25/2012 10:07 AM, George wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 9:22 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>> On 8/25/2012 9:03 AM, George wrote:
>>> On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

>> Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>> assassinated someone.

> Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
> fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
> the line of fire.

Naturally. I'm not saying it couldn't have been handled
better. Just that they had self preservation instincts kick
in and I can understand it.

nancy

On 8/25/2012 10:22 AM, Gary wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>> Things like that can happen when a murderer puts a gun practically
>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>> assassinated someone.
>
> Cops so often get a bad rap. Remember, we (the taxpayers) hire them to
> shield us from all the bad, evil people in any society...and there's a lot
> of them. Most come out at night when most of the "decent" people are at
> home sleeping.
>
> The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
> and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
> everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
> my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.

Without concern for the safety of others even if you were on a crowded
city street?


>
> I've had a few encounters with cops in my lifetime, mostly minor traffic
> violations but once I got pulled over because me and my van fit a
> discription of someone who had just robbed a restaurant. (That was an
> interesting episode!@)
>
> Anyway, any time I've gotten stopped I've always been very polite (not
> ****ed off and argue). I've avoided some tickets they could have given me
> because of that.
>
> Remember, these guys deal with the scum of society. When they show up to
> deal with you, they are probably assuming you might be one too.
>
> If you think policemen are bullies and arrogant, wait until you need to call
> one to help you and see how happy you are when they show up quickly.
>
> Gary
>
> PS - in my city, the police get pretty damn good pay and benefits. Once you
> consider the dangerous job they take on each shift though, I think they are
> probably underpaid.
>

On 8/25/2012 10:48 AM, Pete C. wrote:
>
> Gary wrote:
>>
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>>
>>> Things like that can happen when a murderer puts a gun practically
>>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>>> assassinated someone.
>>
>> Cops so often get a bad rap. Remember, we (the taxpayers) hire them to
>> shield us from all the bad, evil people in any society...and there's a lot
>> of them. Most come out at night when most of the "decent" people are at
>> home sleeping.
>>
>> The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
>> and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
>> everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
>> my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.
>
> Anyone firing a gun, be they police or civilian, are responsible for
> where the bullets land. If it was a civilian doing the shooting of a
> legitimate bad guy and they unloaded the mag and struck 9 or 10 innocent
> bystanders they would be in jail. Police need to be held to the same or
> higher standards, not lower.
>

In every course I have ever taken the safety of others was always taught
as a primary consideration. You always consider who is in the line of fire.

"Pete C." wrote:
>
> Anyone firing a gun, be they police or civilian, are responsible for
> where the bullets land. If it was a civilian doing the shooting of a
> legitimate bad guy and they unloaded the mag and struck 9 or 10 innocent
> bystanders they would be in jail. Police need to be held to the same or
> higher standards, not lower.

Police are held to very high standards. The lucky cops never have to fire a
gun. The ones that do are put on temporary suspension until a full
investigation is done. Cops are trained and are not crazy gunslingers. They
know that shooting will entail career consequences.

G.

On 8/25/2012 10:24 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:07:26 -0400, George >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>
>>> Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
>>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>>> assassinated someone.
>>>
>>> nancy
>>
>> Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
>> fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
>> the line of fire.
>>
>>
>>
>> CCTV of police shooting Empire State Building gunman
>>
>> http://youtu.be/6W8cHwNuqH4
>
> You would think that, they are trained, practiced, etc. But we are
> talking real life here. Much as we'd like to say exactly how it
> should have happened, if someone was pointing a guy at you, you'd
> react, not stop and think about the situation.

Reality is most cops just have to qualify to meet a minimum standard.

If I was in that scenario I would not have emptied a clip into someone
if I was on a crowded city street. You are supposed to know what is in
the line of fire and what damage you can cause.


>
> This guy already killed and you will be next. I'd like to see your
> reaction.
>

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:45:11 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:



>
>That's the thing, the police initiated the confrontation on a crowded
>street. Until the police initiated the confrontation there was no gun
>drawn, no random shooting civilians, etc. The police failed before the
>shooting even started. The proper response would have been to follow the
>suspect at a distance until he was in a safer location such as an alley
>before initiating a confrontation.

Speculation at best. Since we were not there, we cannot say if the
confrontation was timed properly or not. Once he spotted the police,
he may have reacted in a threatening way. There was a lot going on
and a lot of police in the area and the perp was surely on edge too.

>
>>
>> This guy already killed and you will be next. I'd like to see your
>> reaction.
>
>This guy was walking down the street with his gun put away before the
>confrontation was initiated by the police.

And he pulled the gun and pointed it at them.

On 8/25/2012 10:58 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 10:07 AM, George wrote:
>> On 8/25/2012 9:22 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2012 9:03 AM, George wrote:
>>>> On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
>
>>> Things like that can happen when a murdered puts a gun practically
>>> in your face. A lot of adrenaline flowing there. This guy had just
>>> assassinated someone.
>
>> Sure but shouldn't we expect better judgment as to how many shots they
>> fired? The cops did know they were on a crowded street with people in
>> the line of fire.
>
> Naturally. I'm not saying it couldn't have been handled
> better. Just that they had self preservation instincts kick
> in and I can understand it.
>
> nancy

Presumably they fired their guns before. You don't need to put 10 rounds
into someone at 8 feet to stop them. You do need to consider you are on
a crowded city street and know that each additional round you fire
increases the probability that someones husband, wife or child may not
come home that day.

On 8/25/2012 11:16 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:45:11 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> That's the thing, the police initiated the confrontation on a crowded
>> street. Until the police initiated the confrontation there was no gun
>> drawn, no random shooting civilians, etc. The police failed before the
>> shooting even started. The proper response would have been to follow the
>> suspect at a distance until he was in a safer location such as an alley
>> before initiating a confrontation.
>
> Speculation at best. Since we were not there, we cannot say if the
> confrontation was timed properly or not. Once he spotted the police,
> he may have reacted in a threatening way. There was a lot going on
> and a lot of police in the area and the perp was surely on edge too.
>
>>
>>>
>>> This guy already killed and you will be next. I'd like to see your
>>> reaction.
>>
>> This guy was walking down the street with his gun put away before the
>> confrontation was initiated by the police.
>
> And he pulled the gun and pointed it at them.
>

And one really reasonable course of action would be to simply follow him
where he may have ran into an alley or a location with a better backstop
than people on the street.

George wrote:
>
> On 8/25/2012 10:22 AM, Gary wrote:
> > The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
> > and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
> > everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
> > my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.
>
> Without concern for the safety of others even if you were on a crowded
> city street?

Come on, George. Of course the cops have concern for that. That's why they
often refrain from shooting someone. Keep in mind too....what if they don't
shoot the bad guy and he starts shooting the innocent people.

Keep in mind too...all these decisions happen in seconds. Hindsight is
always 20-20. Don't pick on the cops 'after the fact.' They did what they
thought was best at the time and reacted how they were trained to respond.

Funny how we are forgetting about the bad guy here and now pointing fingers
at the cops.

G.

"George" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
>> On 8/24/2012 10:16 PM, Christopher M. wrote:
>>> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
>>
>>>> Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
>>>>
>>>> It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and
>>>> one
>>>> targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
>>>> away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing
>>>> the bad
>>>> guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.
>>
>>> It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.
>>
>> Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
>> bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
>> cops being hurt.
>>
>> nancy
>>
>
> The initial lets invent something reports painted the gunfight picture.
>
> The later reports all seem to say it was a murder and suicide by police
> after the murderer drew on the two cops who were tipped off by the
> construction workers. Bystander injuries all seem to be related to police
> overreacting. One officer fired nine times and the other seven times.

If a person pointed a gun at me I'd keep shooting until they hit the ground.


W. Pooh (AKA Winnie P.)

George wrote:
>
> If I was in that scenario I would not have emptied a clip into someone
> if I was on a crowded city street. You are supposed to know what is in
> the line of fire and what damage you can cause.

First reaction about a bad guy pointing a gun at you and is ready to kill
you would be to shoot first and preserve your own life. Bystander concern
comes after the fact.

If you were in that scenario - a murderer pointing a gun at you - you might
not fire your entire clip at him, but I'll bet you would keep pulling the
trigger until you knew he was down.

Don't talk this hindsight criticism of the police. I've learned that even
though you think you know what you would do in a certain situation, your
reaction is often different when that time finally comes.

G.

"Pete C." > wrote in message
.com...
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Andy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
>> >
>> > Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the
>> > Empire
>> > State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue
>> > shot
>> > randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
>> >
>> > The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
>> > police.
>> >
>> > Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
>> >
>> > Crazy!
>> >
>> > Andy
>> >
>>
>> Guns don't kill people!
>>
>> But people with guns sure as hell do!
>
> Police with guns sure do. As a non-criminal civilian your odds are much
> higher for being shot by careless police than by a civilian.

You could make the same argument with car chases. But if no one enforces the
law there's chaos. The thin blue line must be preserved.


W. Pooh (AKA Winnie P.)

Hindsight George who doesn't deserve to own firearms wrote:
>
> And one really reasonable course of action would be to simply follow him
> where he may have ran into an alley or a location with a better backstop
> than people on the street.

There's only one reason to carry a gun in public. If you hesitate to use it
when the time comes, you will be the loser

I'd love to see you in an old west gunfight on main street at high noon. The
clock will strike 12 and your opponent will put one right between your eyes
while you are deciding if any innocent people might be behind him. Perhaps
you should spend more time at a firing range to improve your accuracy.

G.

Gary wrote:
>
> George wrote:
> >
> > If I was in that scenario I would not have emptied a clip into someone
> > if I was on a crowded city street. You are supposed to know what is in
> > the line of fire and what damage you can cause.
>
> First reaction about a bad guy pointing a gun at you and is ready to kill
> you would be to shoot first and preserve your own life. Bystander concern
> comes after the fact.

The bag guy was not pointing a gun, nor did he even have a gun visible
until after the police initiated the confrontation.

>
> If you were in that scenario - a murderer pointing a gun at you - you might
> not fire your entire clip at him, but I'll bet you would keep pulling the
> trigger until you knew he was down.

I'm also not going to miss 50% or the shots, especially with a nearly
static target at point blank range.

>
> Don't talk this hindsight criticism of the police. I've learned that even
> though you think you know what you would do in a certain situation, your
> reaction is often different when that time finally comes.

It's very easy to criticize when they made clear mistakes in initiating
a confrontation in a crowded area, firing an excessive number of shots,
and missing more than 50% of those shots at a nearly static target at
point blank range.

"l, not -l" wrote:
>
> On 25-Aug-2012, George > wrote:
>
> > If I was in that scenario I would not have emptied a clip into someone
> > if I was on a crowded city street. You are supposed to know what is in
> > the line of fire and what damage you can cause.
>
> Have you ever been in a firefight? Ever been in the line of fire? Until
> you have, you have no idea what you would do.

Says someone with likely zero firearms experience or training.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:21:09 -0400, George >
wrote:



>And one really reasonable course of action would be to simply follow him
>where he may have ran into an alley or a location with a better backstop
>than people on the street.

Sure, you tell me that with a gun pointing at you. A loaded gun that
just killed another person. Maybe you can buy him a coffee and
persuade him to put the gun away and turn himself in. My choice is
shoot the SOB before he shoots me.

According to the accounts that I read, once he spotted the police, he
pulled a gun. Again, neither of us was thee so we can make up all
sorts of fantasy solutions. Point a gun at me though, I'm shooting.

On 8/25/2012 11:21 AM, Gary wrote:
> George wrote:
>>
>> On 8/25/2012 10:22 AM, Gary wrote:
>>> The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
>>> and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
>>> everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
>>> my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.
>>
>> Without concern for the safety of others even if you were on a crowded
>> city street?
>
> Come on, George. Of course the cops have concern for that. That's why they
> often refrain from shooting someone. Keep in mind too....what if they don't
> shoot the bad guy and he starts shooting the innocent people.

They were right behind him. Lets say they didn't confront him and he
drew his gun they could have shot him and maybe not so many times
considering they were on a crowded street. A few bullets at 10 feet have
substantial effect.

And if you think I am being unfair one of my oldest friends is a police
chief in a medium size city and we often discuss what cops do.


The particular thing that happened in NYC yesterday is called suicide by
police. The person has a single minded goal. That is to kill whomever
they think wronged them and then to have the police kill them.

>
> Keep in mind too...all these decisions happen in seconds. Hindsight is
> always 20-20. Don't pick on the cops 'after the fact.' They did what they
> thought was best at the time and reacted how they were trained to respond.
>
> Funny how we are forgetting about the bad guy here and now pointing fingers
> at the cops.

This is often called a "teaching moment". A person with mental illness
sought out to kill the one that wronged them and very likely to be
killed by the police. No apologies for that. The police overreacted by
firing so many times on a crowded street.


>
> G.
>

Gary wrote:
>
> "Pete C." wrote:
> >
> > Anyone firing a gun, be they police or civilian, are responsible for
> > where the bullets land. If it was a civilian doing the shooting of a
> > legitimate bad guy and they unloaded the mag and struck 9 or 10 innocent
> > bystanders they would be in jail. Police need to be held to the same or
> > higher standards, not lower.
>
> Police are held to very high standards. The lucky cops never have to fire a
> gun. The ones that do are put on temporary suspension until a full
> investigation is done. Cops are trained and are not crazy gunslingers. They
> know that shooting will entail career consequences.
>
> G.

The average police officer received far less firearms training than you
want to believe. Far too often we see this lack of training playing out
when they overreact and kill innocent civilians.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:18:46 -0400, George >
wrote:



>
>Presumably they fired their guns before. You don't need to put 10 rounds
>into someone at 8 feet to stop them. You do need to consider you are on
>a crowded city street and know that each additional round you fire
>increases the probability that someones husband, wife or child may not
>come home that day.

You are correct, of course, but that is so easy to say sitting at home
in front of your computer. I wonder just how you'd react in real
life. Remember, if he shoots first, or even second or third, it is
YOU that won't be going home.

Gary wrote:
>
> George wrote:
> >
> > On 8/25/2012 10:22 AM, Gary wrote:
> > > The cops don't go to an office and safely work on a computer, drink coffee,
> > > and have a great day. They are sent out to deal with the scum that are
> > > everywhere. If I was a cop and a bad guy pointed a gun in my face, I'd empty
> > > my clip into him...one less worthless piece of crap. Better him than me.
> >
> > Without concern for the safety of others even if you were on a crowded
> > city street?
>
> Come on, George. Of course the cops have concern for that. That's why they
> often refrain from shooting someone. Keep in mind too....what if they don't
> shoot the bad guy and he starts shooting the innocent people.

Considering that the bad guy would have to draw his weapon before he
started shooting innocent people, it would seem that at that point there
would be justification to fire on the suspect in a crowded location, not
while the suspect was walking down the street with no weapon visible.

>
> Keep in mind too...all these decisions happen in seconds. Hindsight is
> always 20-20. Don't pick on the cops 'after the fact.' They did what they
> thought was best at the time and reacted how they were trained to respond.

We're picking on the training or lack thereof specifically, not the
individual officers. Their training was clearly inadequate given their
initiation of the confrontation in a crowded area when there was no
weapon visible at the time, their atrocious hit ratio and the excessive
number of shots fired.

>
> Funny how we are forgetting about the bad guy here and now pointing fingers
> at the cops.

We're not forgetting about a bad guy who was walking down the street
with no weapon visible and not presenting an immediate threat.

"Christopher M." wrote:
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 8/24/2012 10:24 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
> >> On 8/24/2012 10:16 PM, Christopher M. wrote:
> >>> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>>> Point of order: *It was the cops who shot the passers-by*
> >>>>
> >>>> It started out as a routine homicide inside the ESB; one shooter and
> >>>> one
> >>>> targeted victim he had a grudge against. When the shooter was getting
> >>>> away cops outside the building opened fire into the crowd, killing
> >>>> the bad
> >>>> guy and injuring a bunch of bystanders.
> >>
> >>> It was more like a gunfight, Bob. The officers were wounded.
> >>
> >> Who wounded them? They weren't shot by the gunman, all of his
> >> bullets are accounted for. I haven't heard anything about the
> >> cops being hurt.
> >>
> >> nancy
> >>
> >
> > The initial lets invent something reports painted the gunfight picture.
> >
> > The later reports all seem to say it was a murder and suicide by police
> > after the murderer drew on the two cops who were tipped off by the
> > construction workers. Bystander injuries all seem to be related to police
> > overreacting. One officer fired nine times and the other seven times.
>
> If a person pointed a gun at me I'd keep shooting until they hit the ground.

Would you be missing more than half the shots at point blank range? Do
you believe that a person who is shot would instantly be knocked off
their feet ala Hollyweird?

"Christopher M." wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> .com...
> >
> > graham wrote:
> >>
> >> "Andy" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
> >> >
> >> > Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the
> >> > Empire
> >> > State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue
> >> > shot
> >> > randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
> >> >
> >> > The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
> >> > police.
> >> >
> >> > Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
> >> >
> >> > Crazy!
> >> >
> >> > Andy
> >> >
> >>
> >> Guns don't kill people!
> >>
> >> But people with guns sure as hell do!
> >
> > Police with guns sure do. As a non-criminal civilian your odds are much
> > higher for being shot by careless police than by a civilian.
>
> You could make the same argument with car chases. But if no one enforces the
> law there's chaos. The thin blue line must be preserved.

Have you noted that nearly everywhere the police now have rules
prohibiting nearly all car chases? Nearly every car chase scenario ends
worse than simply letting the suspect get away and finding them later in
a safer environment. In this NYC case the police did not have an active
shooter to respond to until they initiated the confrontation, prior to
that they had a suspect leaving the area, nothing more.

On 8/25/2012 11:50 AM, Gary wrote:
> Hindsight George who doesn't deserve to own firearms wrote:
>>
>> And one really reasonable course of action would be to simply follow him
>> where he may have ran into an alley or a location with a better backstop
>> than people on the street.
>
> There's only one reason to carry a gun in public. If you hesitate to use it
> when the time comes, you will be the loser
>
> I'd love to see you in an old west gunfight on main street at high noon. The
> clock will strike 12 and your opponent will put one right between your eyes
> while you are deciding if any innocent people might be behind him. Perhaps
> you should spend more time at a firing range to improve your accuracy.
>
> G.
>
I did score 94 (out of 100) on an FBI Pistol Qualification Course. I
have also taken an FBI PQC course. I do shoot frequently with an old
friend who is a police chief in a medium size city. How about you?

On 8/25/2012 12:14 PM, Pete C. wrote:
>
> "Christopher M." wrote:
>>
>> "Pete C." > wrote in message
>> .com...
>>>
>>> graham wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Andy" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> OT: Craziness in NYC!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Noon TV news reported earlier this morning, a crazed gunman at the
>>>>> Empire
>>>>> State building in midtown Manhattan at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue
>>>>> shot
>>>>> randomly at passers by. Two dead, nine injured.
>>>>>
>>>>> The mayor reported some injured were, in the confusion, were shot by
>>>>> police.
>>>>>
>>>>> Crazy nuts to my left <---> crazy nuts to my right!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Crazy!
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Guns don't kill people!
>>>>
>>>> But people with guns sure as hell do!
>>>
>>> Police with guns sure do. As a non-criminal civilian your odds are much
>>> higher for being shot by careless police than by a civilian.
>>
>> You could make the same argument with car chases. But if no one enforces the
>> law there's chaos. The thin blue line must be preserved.
>
> Have you noted that nearly everywhere the police now have rules
> prohibiting nearly all car chases? Nearly every car chase scenario ends
> worse than simply letting the suspect get away and finding them later in
> a safer environment. In this NYC case the police did not have an active
> shooter to respond to until they initiated the confrontation, prior to
> that they had a suspect leaving the area, nothing more.
>
A friends son died as a result of a simple traffic stop being escalated
into a 120 MPH chase on city streets.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:02:17 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>"l, not -l" wrote:
>>
>> On 25-Aug-2012, George > wrote:
>>
>> > If I was in that scenario I would not have emptied a clip into someone
>> > if I was on a crowded city street. You are supposed to know what is in
>> > the line of fire and what damage you can cause.
>>
>> Have you ever been in a firefight? Ever been in the line of fire? Until
>> you have, you have no idea what you would do.
>
>Says someone with likely zero firearms experience or training.

OK-- *I'll* ask, then. Have you (or George) ever been face to face
with a loaded gun and had to use deadly force?

Jim
[and yes-- *I* have-- thankfully not on a busy city street. Mine
were in free fire zones so we didn't have to worry about collateral
damage---- but I can definitely vouch for the difference between
imagination and reality]

Gary wrote:

> > Without concern for the safety of others even if you were on a crowded
> > city street?
>
> Come on, George. Of course the cops have concern for that. That's why they
> often refrain from shooting someone. Keep in mind too....what if they don't
> shoot the bad guy and he starts shooting the innocent people.

Ever heard of nonlethal weapons? Duh.

Pete C. wrote:

> > Have you ever been in a firefight? Ever been in the line of fire? Until
> > you have, you have no idea what you would do.
>
> Says someone with likely zero firearms experience or training.

No, that's what people who have firefight experience say. They should
know, since they've been through it. Sitting here at my desk, I can
well imagine the variety of thoughts I might have: Is my life in
danger? Would it better to hide? Am I confident I will hit the bad
guy? Am I *certain* I won't shoot a bystander?

Until you've faced it in real life, you just don't know what you'd do.
Training or experience in using firearms doesn't prepare you for the
*decision* of whether to shoot at a person.